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Lise or anybody: 37>36

dobro p

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How would you read this?

Participation in the inner group in a way that keeps your cards close to your chest?

I'm having a tough time squaring the two active lines (37.5 and 37.6) which are so positive with the difficulties that come with Hex 36.
 

lightofdarkness

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In general:

38 covers hiding behind a mirror so others seem themselves in the mirror and think it is you.

37 covers rigid structure that enables tension release. (and so moving into it elicits tension release)

36 covers (!) covering of one's light for some other time (and so moving it into the dark)

35 covers bringing the light out of the dark.
 

omshante

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hi dobro
37 the 'family' 36 keeping a low profile

there are natural diffuculties that occur within any 'family' situation as familiarity breeds contempt. 'family' being 2 or more people who share their lives on a regular or 'day to day' basis. in your case you are being advised to 'play it coool'

37, 5 position of leadership. 'the king comes close to his clan'. the basis is happiness mutual trust and affection. care and love
37, 6 'proceed with confidence', be true to Self, the earning of respect and trust

high position, low profile (36) - disguise, yes there is a negative element about, could be jealousy. remain determined but hidden. reamin true to oneself and take a backseat'

external, nothing you can do about it, a position of humility for time being, learn from the difficulty. all the best leaders exercise great humility


omshante
 

lightofdarkness

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I would be wary about taking the label of "The Family" too literally here. From the universal perspective the focus is on tension release through rigid structure. The traditional IC ANALOGY is to a traditonal family where 'first daughter is first daughter, mother is mother, father is father' etc etc etc - IOW there is NO competition, all is in the 'right place'.

For any hexagram, the line position of 5 is 'controlled' by hexagram 8 that reflects the 'passive' attraction, the IMPLICIT attraction process that allows development of trust etc without it being explicitly demanded, expected etc. (for line 5 and its association to the 'king' so it reflects those coming to the court, not the court coming to them - as such the 'ruler' is static and attracts others. 08 pairs with 20 where 08 is uncondional, 20 is conditional in its 'attraction' in that it reflects one being an example and so eliciting admiration that acts to motivate, cultivate others ).

Line position 6 is controlled by 23 - and so a focus on issues of devotion to a particular 'belief'; on housekeeping to remove the 'noise' from the 'truth'.

COMBINE the line positions and you focus on hexagram 20 where it rules 5AND6. Here the focus is on a PARTICULAR source of admiration and so of motivation. (the negative interpretation is of being made an example of... and so a warning to others - THAT could pass into 36 where we have to hide our light since the surroundings do not favour its expression! ;-) - the analogy in 36 is of a 'bright' minister being rejected by the king regardless of that minister's skills. (or possibly because of those skills - a potential threat, brings out the 'fear' element in earth).

Chris.
 

cal val

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"I would be wary about taking the label of "The Family" too literally here."

I agree with Chris on this one.

I get 37 and changes whenever I'm talking financial decisions with the Yi. If it's a sound financial decision, 37 will change to 42 or something else positive.

If you're talking about doing something that will have a fiscal impact, I'd look for some other options and discuss them with the Yi as well if I were you.

Love,

Val
 
C

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Dobro, seems as though Yi is replaying your question back to you as an image. Leadership within a group or body, and remaining hidden (keeping hand close to chest) as in 36 - the opposite of wearing your heart on your sleeve, for example.
 

dobro p

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"Dobro, seems as though Yi is replaying your question back to you as an image. Leadership within a group or body, and remaining hidden (keeping hand close to chest) as in 36 - the opposite of wearing your heart on your sleeve, for example."

Yeah, exactly. What I'm struggling with a bit is the positive nature at the micro level (active lines) and the warning (?) built into the macro level (37>36). How can it look so auspicious on the one hand and so cautious on the other?
 
C

candid

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I don't see them as opposing meanings, but two parts of one image. I don't automatically apply positive to lines 5 and 6, or negative to 36; at least not in the good/bad manner of applying positive and negative. One is outward and one is inward. Forgive the biblical metaphor, but I think it works here: Render unto Caesar what is Caesar?s, and unto God what is God's. Some things ought to be revealed on a need to know basis only.

I don?t see it as auspicious or un-auspicious. Just an objective image and lesson.
 

lightofdarkness

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By mapping 20 to line positions 5 and 6, so XORing 20 with 37 gives us the expression of 20 THROUGH 37 (the 20-ness of 37)

101011 (37) Context/whole
000011 (20) XOR (part)
---------
101000 (36) expression

what this 'says' is the expression of 20 in a context of 37 is described by analogy to 36.

IOW "how does 37 express the passive admiration/example setting of 20?"

20 overall is usually positive and particular, and so conditional. BUT the line CHANGE is from yang (positive) to yin (negative) and so interpretable as being made an example of (negative) rather than being an example (positive).

If in 37 everyone has their place, then there are no exaggerations such that any exaggeration needs to be 'covered up' - open admiration in a rigid context can serve to destabilise that context in that it motivates others to shift their position to 'be like him/her'.

In 37 each position is an example, a second daughter being a second daughter is an example of 'second daughter-ness'. such that any examples are already present in 37 - any more and we are being excessive, exaggerating, destabilising, and so in need for dampening-down that 'fire' ;-)

Chris.
 

bradford_h

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Dobro-

Regarding the "difficulties that come with Hex 36,"
consider this from Sid Fleishman:
Dark ain't so bad if you know what's in it.

But I still don't get why folks insist on positive and negative Gua.

Transitional hexagrams take you through 22.6 before you reach 36: simplicity and understatement.
Yes, don't show all your cards.
 

lightofdarkness

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"But I still don't get why folks insist on positive and negative Gua"

From the level of the UNIVERSAL so ALL hexagrams are interpretable as positive or negative. Yin is totally negative, total darkness, OR positive in the form of being a place to hide, to nurture - and so hex 02 is positive or negative.

01 is positive in its 'yangness' but also destructive in its competitiveness.

The LOCAL interpretations can 'skew' perspectives away from the negative/positive aspects and so be overly positive/negative etc.

Universals are free of qualifiers and so are out of touch with local context - but being universals so they accomodate qualifiers.

From the universal perspective, 02 is rooted in FEAR but is transformed into DEVOTION TO OTHERS etc. - reflects enantiodromia at work ;-) where the reactive can be exploited, turned around to be proactive.

The 'purist' perspectives on local categorisations will favour particulars and in doing so will often miss/ignore the underlying universals.
 

lightofdarkness

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I think it is important to understand the TWO types of dichotomisation used in our brains. One is where the dichotomy is symmetric. The focus is on extracting DIFFERENCE from SAMENESS. Thus +1/-1 is of this type in that the absolute values are 1/1 and so 'same' and the focus is on +/- and so the difference.

This sort of dichotomy will give you guassian, aka normal, distribution curves and reflect a SINGLE CONTEXT focus a focus on WITHIN a level of analysis.

The other form of dichotomy is ASYMMETRIC. Its focus is on extracing SAMENESS ACROSS DIFFERENCE. This is more in the form of worthless/priceless not as 'opposites/ but as the priceless emerging from the worthless, the universal emerging from the local, the 'sage' emerging from the 'worker'.
This sort of dichotomy gives you power law patterns, spectrums etc.

This sort of dichotomy SPANS levels in a hierarchy and is reflected in the IC as bottom line to top line focus. IOW the top trigram 'emerges from' the context set by the bottom - in the symmetric format so we can interpret the top trigram opposing the bottom trigram (and so reading the top trigram top-down where lines 4 and 3 reflect the point of 'opposition').

The IC deals with BOTH of these types of dichotomies in its reflection of the UNIVERSAL that is our brain dealing with these sorts of dynamics.


In the traditional IC we get such interpretations as 47, with a focus on exhaustion etc etc and so a 'negative' sell, but there is also the positive sell in what is being 'enclosed' willingly accepting that, where the enclosure ensures integration with the local context.

39 is interpreted as if coming up against 'obsticles' but also covers being an obsticle, going against the mindless flow. LOCAL CONTEXT will elicit either the positive or the negative.
 

lightofdarkness

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another example of things:

37 and 40 are structural 'opposites' but both deal with the DIFFERENT expressions of the SAME thing - tension release. 37 through RIGID structure, 40 through RELAXED structure.

The notion of 'tension release' is opposed but 'tension increase' and both come out of the realm of 'no tension'.

Thus the notion of tension as a universal comes out of a balanced state where there are no differentiations.

GIVEN the notion of tension THEN comes the issues of its increase/decrease etc as an 'opposite'.

This dynamic is tracable back to, down to, the realm of fermions/bosons where fermions emerge from bosons (and so reflect the asymmetric dichotomy) but focus on fermions and they come out as a PAIR in the form of +/- charged particles and so as 'opposites'.

yin/yang etc covers all of this since it is a metaphor for what the brain deals with - differentiating/integrating ;-)
 

lightofdarkness

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Structural *opposites* in the IC are UNIVERSALLY saying the ONE thing but LOCALLY are showing the DIFFERENCES in expression. Here are the opposites - enjoy the reflection ;-)

(the same pattern is repeated in the PAIRS along each column - IOW in the first row, 01 opposes 02 structurally but says the 'same thing', as does 01,43 where the structural difference is now only the top line. Note in this focus on quartets (01, 02, 43, 23) so the unconditional/conditional associations are 02 to 43, 01 to 23 etc) I have seperated-out the quartets involved and sprinked some meanings ;-)

Overall this is an exercise in dealing with the opposite sides of the same coin - name the coin: (once we have coin so we then have the pole of the asymmetric dichotomy, e.g. devotion emerges from .... etc)

01 02 devotion (to self, to others; singleminded,dualminded)
43 23 promotion (seeding, pruning)

14 08 center of operations (active, passive)
34 20 invigoration (active, passive)

09 16 climb the ladder (through experiences, through planning)
05 35 bring something 'out' (delayed, immediate)

26 45 hold beliefs (hold firm, celebrate)
11 12 mediating (harmonising, neutralising)

10 15
58 52

38 39
54 53

61 62
60 56

41 31
19 33

13 07 uniformity (likeminded, othersminded (army way))
49 04

30 29
55 59

37 40 tension release (through rigid, through relaxed)
63 64

22 47 enclosing (outside focus, inside focus)
36 06 compromising (uncompromise, compromise)

25 46
17 18

21 48
51 57

42 32 (augmenting, commiting)
03 50 emerging (raw, refined)

27 28
24 44
 

lightofdarkness

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The last email covered the interpretation of structural opposites in saying the same thing universally but expressing local differences (as in the yin perspective vs the yang perspective).

Now we move to the asymmetric dichotomy. Here the SAME sequence of hexagrams is used but the 'yin' thread is tagged-on to the end of the 'yang' thread. This gives us a path from 000000 to 111111 and reflects such dichotomies as the POTENTIAL/ACTUAL where the actual 'emerges' from the potential. In the I Ching so the potential is 'yin' and the actual is 'yang'.

Due to the scale-free nature of these dichotomies, so each level of analysis allows for dual interpretations. Thus when we focus on opposites, so 01 and 02 cover the same thing - devotion - with 01 covering the difference of self vs 02 covering the differences of another/others. When we focus on complements, so 01 has emerged from 02, the full actualisation has emerged from the full potentialisation.

This latter focus introduces ASYMMETRY in that I cannot infer 01 from 02 but I CAN infer 02 from 01; IOW GIVEN an actual I can infer the existence of a potential state. I cannot infer from a potential state any actualisation other than imagining that actualisation. (IOW, using set theory so 01 is a subset of 02, or 01 <= 02)

This dynamic, being scale invarient, means that such pairs as 02,23 are (a) intepretable as local opposites (different top line) but (b) also as local complements (23 emerges from 02, the conditional from the unconditional).

As we change scales so the 'opposites' path can be used to derive the more general 'complements' path OR go 'up' a level into finer details.

Chris.
 

dobro p

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Candid,Brad - I understand what you're saying about the Yi messages being neither positive nor negative - I use that kind of terminology just for the sake of convenience. Maybe 'auspicious' and 'inauspicious' come closer, but it's even more complex than that for me.

Instead, I characterize the meanings in the Yi more like you'd characterize different kinds of wind when you're sailing, both in terms of which direction the wind's coming from and how strong it is. Wind is neither positive nor negative. But in terms of your getting to your destination, wind can be auspicious (smooth, fast sailing) or inauspicious (rough, slow, with a lot of tacking; or downright dangerous and destructive). Plus, when I interpret lines in the Yi, there are grades and shades of each of those auspicious and inasupicious 'winds' - and a lot of sailing wind is neither auspicious nor inauspicious particularly, it's just what you're dealing with and you get to your destination in an average amount of time after having done an average amount of work to do it.

But look at all the words I've had to use to express that idea lol. If I'd said it right the first time, I'd've said to Candid: "What I'm struggling with a bit is the auspicious, 'smooth sailing' nature at the micro level (active lines 37.5 and 37.6) and the inasupicious 'keep your head down' warning of 36. How to square the circle?

Candid remembered the Jesus saying 'give Caesar what's Caesar's; give God what's God's'. I think that's a good nudge, except for the fact that God and Caesar operate on different levels of reality, which was Jesus' point I think. But these hexagrams are probably operating on the same level of reality in my case.

Lightofdarkness: your interpretation of the Yi is so radical and revisionist that it isn't useful to me; you're not speaking a language I understand. I wonder who you're posting this stuff for, or why. You're certainly not posting it for my benefit or the benefit of most of the people here. And what possible benefit do *you* get from posting stuff that nobody understands? You're like a guy playing very outside jazz in a club for bluegrass music. I don't get it. On two levels. You'll be pleased to hear however that my not understanding your system doesn't make me feel like a stupid person.
 
C

candid

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Dobro, I think your sailing winds analogy works really well, and I agree that my 'render unto..' phrase falls short of the bull?s eye. What I'm not understanding is 'squaring the circle'. Is this an actual matrix problem or a philosophical one?
 

lightofdarkness

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dont you worry about anything Dobro - you will just fine ;-) You may get left behind but thats ok, we all have to repeat a year at some time or another in our lives. ;-)
 

lightofdarkness

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Om - LOL! ;-)

Some background:

One of the 'issues' on this list has been the attempts to maintain a 10th century BC perspective when we live in the 21st century AD. Current research in neurosciences, cognitive science etc etc etc shows the IC to be a METAPHOR for what is operating between our ears.

IOW the traditional IC is a specialisation of a universal - and that is what ICPlus 'reveals' - the properties and methods of the universal (see the IDM material - http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/idm001.html)

To many 'traditionalists' that is not good news since it means they have more work to do; more to understand about their metaphor ;-) They seem to prefer to stay 'traditionalist'.

I have no real issue with that need to 'stay' in that perspective, all ICPlus does is offer insights to extend that perspective, and those are given by me openly, honestly, with full aim to aid in interpretations.

If people dont like that or choose not to understand it then they can ignore it since this list is about the I Ching, not just the 10th century BC version ;-) If, as Dobro has done, they prefer to abuse the 'alternative' perspective then they will get abuse back. - my replies were sincerly focused on 'understanding' the 37->36 dynamic and all that goes with that from a universals perspective. Dobro could have just ignored it. Simple.

People may want the 21st century AD perspective to 'go away' but that cant happen regardless of me being here or not - the IDM perspective is starting to be understood and so with that comes the 'new' understanding of the IC.
 

omshante

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yes, but what does it all mean when it comes to a loaf of bread. first of all, there is the language to contend with which is very academic. I, for instance do not know what IOW means. however i have visited your site and no doubt will visit again as i am on a MA in visual communication and think there is some useful supporting material there.last year i was failed for fear of getting 'submerged'in a subject (IC) not readily welcomed in the academic arena.

big up and ta, Chris

do you understand that?
 

sparhawk

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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

what IOW means<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Plis, plis, Chris, let me answer this one. It makes me feel smart to know some of your acronyms...


IOW = In Other Words.

There.

L
 

dobro p

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Okay, you're on.

"Current research in neurosciences, cognitive science etc etc etc shows the IC to be a METAPHOR for what is operating between our ears."

Yes, of course. But repeated use of the traditional oracle in the hands of thousands of users shows that it works. Why deny it? Why ignore it? You accuse 'traditionalitsts' of ignoring modern findings. I'm accusing you of ignoring the same thing - you're ignoring what loads of people on this board know - the Yi works. Today, now. And guess what? It doesn't need to be rewritten by you in order for it to work. You're reinventing the wheel. Very scientifically, though. And yes, your wheel is round and turns too.

"If, as Dobro has done, they prefer to abuse the 'alternative' perspective then they will get abuse back."

Abusive? I don't think so. I didn't insult your intelligence or character did I? I said I didn't understand what you were saying. I said I didn't think anybody else here understood what you were saying. I said that was futile or inappropriate behavior.

"my replies were sincerly focused on 'understanding' the 37->36 dynamic and all that goes with that from a universals perspective."

I know, and I believe you, but in this case sincerity ain't enough. Communication is required as well. If you talk over people's heads, they ain't gonna get it. So why do you do it?

"Dobro could have just ignored it. Simple."

Yeah, I took that tack for a while. But (and although you may doubt my sincerity when I say this), I started to feel uncomfortable in my *not* responding to you when you'd obviously put so much into the thread I started. I felt I owed you a response. But when I read and re-read your response I had the same two impressions I always get from your posts here:

* It's over most people's heads.

* The basic approach to *your* Yi is a new system, whereas the basic approach to the Yi that most people use is poetic/symbolic/oracular. I'm expressing myself clumsily here, but earlier in this post I pointed out that the modern translations of the traditional Yi *work*. (You know, I think pretty much *any* system with enough meaningful variables will work as an oracle. Which means that, although I'm not familiar with your Yi, I'm really sure that it works.) The problem with your Yi however, is that it isn't the Yi that the rest of us use. It's a confusing enough situation already with about umpteen translations of the traditional text, and then along *you* come and say the main meaning of Hex 37 shouldn't be thought of primarily as family. lol (I'm laughing at the situation, not at your idea.)

"People may want the 21st century AD perspective to 'go away'

You're taking a lot on by identifying your perspective with 'the 21st century'. With all respect, I'd like some respect from you for *my* perspective, which I see as a 21st century perspective. Yours ain't better, it's just different.

"the IDM perspective is starting to be understood and so with that comes the 'new' understanding of the IC."

And you're here to shove it down our throats whether we want it or not? Look, I've got a polite suggestion. In future consider this approach. If somebody asks for some input and if you want to weigh in with half a dozen long posts of largely incomprehensible systemspeak, it *might* be a good idea if you asked first. You know, along the lines of:

LOD: Hey dobro. You want an IDM perspective on this?

dobro: No thanks - you know I don't understand that stuff.

LOD: I understand completely, my friend. You may get left behind but thats ok, we all have to repeat a year at some time or another in our lives. Now, would anybody else like to hear an IDM perspective on this question?

chorus: No thanks, LOD. We aintcher audience.

etc

Abusive? Nah. Direct? I hope so.

Your turn.










(Hey, I know you're going to reply at length. If you throw in a few IDM analyses, maybe we can string this thread out to an all-time forum record. Whatcha say?)
 

pakua

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I keep reading it, hoping that some of it will sink in eventually and provide an alternate view, but Chris, if you would use everyday words, at least sometimes, perhaps in the form of examples or something, your goals and my goals might converge more.
 

dobro p

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He *does* use everyday words. It's the *combinations* of everyday words he uses that's baffling lol.
 

lightofdarkness

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Dobro - you are not worth the energy since you dont 'get it' yet and your prose indicates you have no interest.

This list is for I Ching, be it yours or mine - the difference is that I can do both - you obviously cant.

Since this is an open forum with anybody allowable to answer just questions as "LiSe or ANYBODY 37>36"

I will respond if *I* see fit - as you would if I asked the same question.

No more on this - you are dismissed.
 

lightofdarkness

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Pakua,

if you dont understand something then ask me, in public or private - I am happy to try and help. My prose from my end is 'fine', although my daughter has asked "do you take a breath when you write!?".

Try reading Hegel - a LOT worse then me!

Since I write quickly and all in one go so there is a lack of editing at times - but then this is the internet and if I spent time editing then the thread would be over by the time i had it 'right'! ;-)
 
C

candid

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I'm still interested in squaring the circle between 37.5,6 and 36.

The green apple is an apple that's green. That's how I read Chris' comments. But I don't see how that's defined by 10th century BC or 21st century AD. I do see it as a way to describe how opposites are different sides of the same thing, though.
 
C

candid

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Dobro, trying to return to your original points. Is 37.5,6 really smooth sailing? As a father who has raised two sons, I can say from my experience that smooth sailing does not in any way describe that experience at all times. But I have experienced smooth sailing during a retreat from the world, even while still functioning in the world, and also hard wind and rough seas at other times.

So, does smooth sailing apply to one more than the other? Or is that dependant upon my relationship to it at a given time? See what I mean?
 

omshante

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Dobro

thankyou for translating Chris into english - no joke - well done mate!

Om
 

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