Lise or anybody: 37>36

[lightofdarkness]

Candid,

do you accept that:

(1) 37 is universally about the use of rigid structure to enable tension release?

(2) line positions 5AND6 are universally 'controlled' by hexagram 20?

In this dynamic, using XOR, so the expression of the qualities of 20 in a context of 37 is best described by analogy to hexagram 36.

In a hierarchy of a rigid structure, where each element in that structure is an example of their particular state (using the traditional analogy to family, so we have 'first-daughter-ness' etc), so the addition of admiration, of invigorating others 'passively' (20) is a no-no in that it favours moving OUT of one's position, one's state, it will elicit competition where there is not supposed to be any. As such there is the need to 'hide that light' - or deal with the consequences and be made an example of.

As for opposites - the patterns are so ONLY when we interpret using a symmetric dichotomy - and so 02 VS 01. Move to the asymmetric and 01 comes out of 02 - is an exaggeration of, the actualisation of a potential.

Our brains appear to do this to allow for (a) extraction of difference from sameness and (b) extraction of sameness from difference.

 

[heylise]

If you get an ?inauspicious? related hexagram, then be happy that Yi sees something you did not see yourself. A tough wind, maybe even a storm. Yi is obviously a good sailor. A good one to ask how to reach your destination.

Sailor Yi: relating 36.. overcast weather or worse, thick black clouds, darkening the sun. But don?t despair, there are some real good things I can tell you. You will get there without much trouble.

First get everything in its right, its own, place.
#37.5 Be a first class captain, self-assured and certain of your position. Your mind has to do the trick. Look at those clouds, feel the wind, and enjoy the challenge! Big wind, big challenge, big joy... This line changes to 22, the beauty of health and energy and the joy in life.
# 37.6 Make your spirit totally open for the moment, for what happens right now, without any second thought. All your senses doing this and only this. Changes to 63, everything clear-cut and obvious. In your mind you are already across, nothing else is possible than the success you already ?know?.

Go for it!

LiSe

 

[candid]

Chris, I can follow that, yes. Or at least the end result of your equation. There are watch makers and there are time tellers. You are a watch maker. Most people just want to know what time it is. I see no real conflict other than personal interest.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Candid - well said! ;-) I have a special on gold bands this week... but the minaturisation of the atomic clocks has hit a snag so deliveries will be delayed....

 

[candid]

Cool. But I'm a little worried about the instruction manual... lol

 

[dobro p]

"Dobro, trying to return to your original points. Is 37.5,6 really smooth sailing?"

Candid, I think so. I'd summarize 37.5 as something like 'leadership and the inner group free of anxiety: fortunate'. And 37.6 would be something like 'truth and dignity: fortunate in the end'. All of those terms seem pretty 'auspicious' to me lol.

So much so, that the only way I can understand hex 36 being part of the picture is as an outcome in time rather than being part of the present picture. Sort of along the lines of: 'okay, it's smooth sailing now in the inner group - there's leadership, there's truth, there's dignity, there's good fortune - but keep your eyes open cuz you're going to have to dim your light soon'.

And that's fine, but recently I've been 'overlaying' the primary and relating hexagrams in order to get a picture of the present. In order to do that, sometimes it helps if I think of the relating hexagram as modifying the meaning of the primary. So..... if I do that in this case, it would be something like: 'the situation I'm in now is one of membership and participation in the inner group in a way that hides its light'. Now that's okay, I can understand that. But I'm having difficulty with 'the situation I'm in now is one of membership and participation in the inner group at a time when there's good leadership, truth, good fortune, but I/we have to hide our light from injury.

See, I'm trying to draw everything here into one meaning, one big picture. Usually that's not difficult for me. For instance, I have no problem with hexagrams that have active lines that seem to contradict each other - I know that life has conflicts, inner and outer, all the time. But I drew blank this time. Which is why I posted the question here. It's useful for me to talk about with others - sometimes something comes out of it, aside from the exchange and the sharing. Nothing's emerged yet though. And maybe nothing will. That's okay too. I'm reading Julian of Norwich these days - medieval mystic from England. Smart woman. She talks at some length about how there are things we need to know, and life shows us those, and how there are things we don't need to know, and life *hints* at those things, in order to let us know they're there, but we're not ready to see them yet. This might be a Julian situation for me lol.

Sorry for the lengthy post.

 

[dobro p]

Lise, I really appreciate and admire your take on this - you adapted my post to your take on it, plus it's poetic, what you've done. You're good at this.

This bit was really good for 37: "get everything in its right, its own, place"

That's a really good description of 37 for me, but I'd add something about the group to it. See for me, the family doesn't personally associate with 'everything in its right place' lol. So if I take my idea of the inner group and your idea then it becomes 'membership and participation in the inner group where everyone and everything's in its right, its own, place'. Chris is talking about 'tension release' as well, and I can see how that fits in terms of 37 being the complement of 38, but I always think of 40 when I think of tension release, not 37. Maybe ease and relaxation would be closer. Dunno. Have you ever had a teacher for a while and then suddenly you became closer, with a greater familiarity, a closer intimacy? It happened to me recently - I think it was an 'inner group' experience - suddenly I was one step closer to being part of the inner group. It wasn't a tension release, but there was definitely less formality than before - perhaps 'formality release' would be better. In the inner group, you can be yourself - you're accepted. I think that fits with your idea of everything in it right, in its own, place.

 

[brian]

Perhaps Light of darkness is simply wishing to offer a contemporized reinterpretation of the 10 wings.

And yet to forsake what was is to forsake what comes, to forsake what comes is to be divorced from what is.

As an analogy, modern physics did not antiquate the newtonian partical theory and its laws, or somehow relegate euclidian geometry to nonrelevance. Instead modern physics came from the womb of what was before and found for itself a realm to call its own.

Contexts change, collective values shift, language evolves--but the truth remains consistent in the way that it is aberrated when looked at directly.

Seeking to ferment inspiration and insight into understanding and knowledge, if one goes to far it spoils and sours, tainting the final distillates with arrogance.

Walking the fine line between self delusion and apathetic ignorance--the fine line of self awareness, the fine line walked with the steps called self will.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Brian,

The IDM perspective is on reviewing current research in neurology, cognitive science, psychology etc etc and demonstrating the ONE source of meaning we all use as a species and how the generic qualities , universals, of that realm are unconsciously recruited, re-labeled and utilised to communicate 'meaning'.

ICPlus identifies the expression of those universal qualities in the I Ching where the I Ching is a specialisation - in specialisations they create their own language in the form of labels that point to the ONE set of qualities we use as a species.

(I use four specialisations to show the one general working 'underneath' the expressions - I Ching, MBTI, types of numbers used in Mathematics, and the categories of emotions)

The ease in which we can make analogies across specialisations is because all specialisiations use the SAME set of qualities - different labels, different lexicons, SAME feelings, and it is the FEELINGS that allow for the links of analogy/metaphor.

IOW the 'traditional' I Ching is a specialist perspective, a metaphor, derived in an ad hoc manner, of the general template used to derive meaning. Being ad hoc, so there are still elements not covered in detail, nore even possibly discovered. We now have access to the realm of the POTENTIALS that become ACTUALISED in ad hoc manners; IOW we can map out the template of meaning.

The IC 'traditionalists' dont get that, and in not getting it so cannot comprehend what happens when we find that we can extend the I Ching from its local, traditional, perspective to something far far greater. - the price being that some aspects (past interpretations) of the IC are 'questionable' whilst other aspects are brought out that are extremely useful.

The traditional IC came out of the same brain but with no understanding of that brain - and born into a world of the 10th century BC where anthropomorphism dominated and there were all sorts of things 'out there' - imagined things.

TO understand meaning in full one needs to understand the METHOD used to derive that meaning - we now know, in general, and it is all differentiating/integrating. From there comes all else, categories of emotions, structures of meaning etc etc etc.

If you want to get into the wings, then ICPlus is the eleventh in that it grounds it all in our brains, makes it all 'us', with our focus on the real and the imagined. It also extends perspectives (and there is more to come) with a structural bias (XOR, FU Hsi style).

I think Martin's AND perspective is also of potential value but it needs to be reviewed carefully to see what else it has in it re AND.

What the traditionalists dont seem to get is the validation going on re the IC, not all of it in that some comes across as 'imaginative' due to the lack of knowledge about information processing. but a lot of it.

Your point about classical vs quantum mechanics is valid in that the ICPlus extends, it does not totally replace, but also note that IDM covers ALL specialisations and so introduces perspectives about QM not considered before, where the perspectives reflect distortions re reality all due to a lack of understanding about how consciousness operates, its PARTS nature rather than WHOLE nature etc. (and that too has an influence on understanding how divination processes appear to 'work' in the IC - but can be made to work 'properly' as well)

Chris.

 

[candid]

Dobro,

Man, I have hard time visualizing 37.5 as smooth sailing. I'm not speaking metaphorically either, but from the hard core base of the huge responsibility involved with being the leader of a household. Only thing is, that during such a time, there's really no room or time for anything else. All energy is poured into the family cauldron, with all it's unpredictable illnesses and challenges. So at the time, even through the turbulent seas, there is strength and reliable stability. But smooth sailing? Yet perhaps this is what you mean? That the stability which makes things smooth for the family, group, whatever, comes from this 37.5. That makes sense to me. 37.5,6 ?makes? things smooth.

Reflecting more on 36: that was an essential element to being a good 37.5,6 for my family. Had I come home from work whining about how badly my boss treated me, complaining of my headaches and reminding everyone of my self doubts, I wouldn't have been a very effective husband and father. Or let's say I shared my fantasies of sex with my secretary ...lol... not exactly 36. And not exactly 37.5,6 either. Unless of course she was an extraordinary and trusting wife. But that?s asking a lot. It?s also sharing the burden and responsibility. But I digress.

I think the most important thing in 36 is not the veil but the light within the veil. To my thinking, that is what really makes a smooth sailing journey, no matter what the weather.

 

[brian]

If all this study is to serve as is an addendum too the I ching (like the 10 wings) that is different than if it is to fundamentally change what the I Ching is, or better stated, reinterpret what the I ching already serves as an interpretation of.

It seems the course of study you speak of is operating in the grey area between enhancing and altering.

With that stated I must admit that translating the "I Ching" from its original ideographs into a more simplified and fixed form of written chinese, and then subsequently into other languages such as english, does not by any means leave the work, as rough as many may assume it was, in its virgin state.

However, in further abstracticating this work, by systematically seeking to define with stone the subtle nuances held within such an interpretive work is much like painting over a classical oil on canvass with concrete. Existing lines, which were initially muddled and blended become very stark and sharp, replacing the illusion of dimension with real dimension. Filling in the gaps and slack that once existed with layers of finite precision drastically changes the feel and nature of the work. It is for this reason many "traditionalists" would resist, or refuse any perspective gained from the study you speak of.

I feel that perhaps when you refer to the system called the "I Ching" that serves as the basis for this study, maybe you dont truely mean any early form of written language. In essence that is what the I Ching is--a system of symbols and images used to coax ones mind from notion to notion. It is a learning aid, an abstract form of memory and a "sixth sense" in that it provides yet another avenue for the mind to gain access to what is going on in and around it. When coupled with the force of will it results in change and action imparted to the physical world--and so it can also be said that it serves as a bridge of sorts--spanning across the conceptual to the percieved.

To confine the specimen of the study to just the I ching seems odd in this regard, for the rock drawings of the San, the anasazi artwork, and just about any other "early" written, shamanistic form of expression serve all the same functions the I Ching was meant to serve in its "hey day". Albeit the examples I have given are not at all as coherent or refined as the "I Ching", nor are the all important contexts in which these other forms existed more than barely discernable, much less understood for that matter.

I guess one other point I'd loft is that the I Ching has long long ago lost its true relevance, some may gasp and growl at me saying this, and I certainly can understand why. Yet the reason I would utter such blasphemy is only to acknowledge the fact that I am not living in the culture the I ching was a product of--for unless one is fully emersed in the cultural context in which any language, oracle or writting of any kind for that matter was generated, then one will miss many of the all important subtlties inherient to a structure and system like the I Ching.

The only reason the I Ching still exists is because people enjoy it and go to it, it is open and flexable, it is warm and gentle in the way it invites folks to see and imagine--yet I feel that to imply that its logic is universal and declare its method absolute is to go too far and over simplify and gloss over much of what is truely involved.

As is said many times on this forum--context is everthing, to change the context in which you view the I Ching is to change the I ching itself.

Essentially the I ching is an interpretation, or more aptly put an interpretive act--this is a point I have belabored by now, but it is an important point--in that as an interpretation it is rooted in nothing. One cannot ground the I Ching or attach it to anything per se, one cannot even affix it to the brain, for it is a product of the brain, and a path of the mind. The best one can do in my mind is declare the I Ching to be a nonsubstansive component of thought--it does not lend itself to quantitative description just as how one cannot empirically describe the color green to any degree that even approaches absolute certainty.

By this point I have already gone past directly addressing the matter you raise, and fear I may have done nothing more than raise several points with which you and many others here may well wish to argue vigorously. My intention is not to argue, nor do I seek to insult, or somehow degrade the beliefs of anyone here--I simply found much of what you said to be interesting and was prompted to toss my two cents in.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Hi Brian,

many thanks for the 'two cents'! ;-)

you wrote:
>
> Posted by Brian (Brian) on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 7:29 am:
>
> If all this study is to serve as is an addendum too the I ching (like
> the 10 wings) that is different than if it is to fundamentally change
> what the I Ching is, or better stated, reinterpret what the I ching
> already serves as an interpretation of.
>
> It seems the course of study you speak of is operating in the grey
> area between enhancing and altering.
>

I think you may be missing a fundamental point - the IC is but a PART of the IDM material (links below) - it is an EXAMPLE of specialisations and as such the traditional material as published does NOT cover 'all there is' even though it is supposed to. By understanding the general, how our species derives meaning, which DOES cover 'all there is', from which the IC particular has emerged, so we move into the realm of a universal that has been localised and labeled in ancient china 'the I Ching' but is more than that traditional material in the set of potentials it contains.

Thus when you buy a Wilhelm or Karcher translation/interpretation etc of the IC, those texts do NOT reveal 'all there is' in the IC since the traditional has been created in an ad hoc manner - and so some area well defined, other areas not.

The FULL traditional IC includes the 10 wings and as such is not complete, as an ancient chinese document, without reference to them. As such, the traditional IC material is not replacable, but more marginalised due to it being a specialist rather than generalist perspective; it is a product of, and remains rooted in, 10th century BC China. The text and comments use analogies to local historic events to try and describe the universals being 'felt'.

The ICPlus material identifies how such a metaphor could develop from our brains in that it reflects what goes on 'in here', the universals of meaning, and in doing so will elicit resonance of meaning in those who use the system - be that resonance of the real or the imagined (and so some 'imagined' perspectives on how it all works has developed over the ages ;-))

> With that stated I must admit that translating the "I Ching" from its
> original ideographs into a more simplified and fixed form of written
> chinese, and then subsequently into other languages such as english,
> does not by any means leave the work, as rough as many may assume it
> was, in its virgin state.
>

There is no need for such a sequence of events since by understanding the source of meaning across the species so we can map out the FEELINGS associated with the qualities of hexagrams. It is those feelings that the traditional IC tries to represent in symbol and prose, using analogies to LOCAL conditions in that description. This method is 'standard' in our species where universals are associated with local conditions to elicit a lexicon to describe those universals operating in that unique context.

The "Species I Ching" is on this list as a thread 'somewhere' ;-) It covers the universal qualities expressed in trigram/hexagram symbolisms as vague FEELINGS and introduces the generic labels of 'blending, bonding, bounding, and binding'. For their derivation see the IDM material - http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/idm001.html (especially chapter 4) - or the draft summary : http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/Vague.pdf or the old but 'quick' page "The Logic of the Esoteric" - http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/esoter.html

<snip>
> I feel that perhaps when you refer to the system called the "I Ching"
> that serves as the basis for this study, maybe you dont truely mean
> any early form of written language. In essence that is what the I
> Ching is--a system of symbols and images used to coax ones mind from
> notion to notion. It is a learning aid, an abstract form of memory and
> a "sixth sense" in that it provides yet another avenue for the mind to
> gain access to what is going on in and around it. When coupled with
> the force of will it results in change and action imparted to the
> physical world--and so it can also be said that it serves as a bridge
> of sorts--spanning across the conceptual to the percieved.
>

You obviously have not been through, or perhaps, if you have, then just dont 'get' the IDM material (many consider it not easy reading! - I am working on the problem).

The IDM material identifies the roots of generic meaning in the manner in which our senses feed data into our brains and from there emerge basic categories shared by ALL neuron-dependent life forms. With those categories we move onto concepts, symbolisms, metaphors.

The increase in neural complexity and the development of an agent of mediation, consciousness, takes the unconscious-derived categories and labels them - creates specialisations such as the I Ching etc.

The IDM material uses FOUR specialisations to demonstrate the influence of the ONE generalisation - the IDM-identified template we use in the creation of analogies/metaphors. IOW the template is the source of language in that it covers the core feelings we use, free of any particular sensory system, to communicate - and so a set of universals.


> To confine the specimen of the study to just the I ching seems odd in
> this regard, for the rock drawings of the San, the anasazi artwork,
> and just about any other "early" written, shamanistic form of
> expression serve all the same functions the I Ching was meant to serve
> in its "hey day". Albeit the examples I have given are not at all as
> coherent or refined as the "I Ching", nor are the all important
> contexts in which these other forms existed more than barely
> discernable, much less understood for that matter.
>

ok but I dont think you have not read, or dont 'get' the IDM material. I use FOUR specialisations as examples of the template 'shining through':

(1) I Ching categories
(2) MBTI categories
(3) Categories of number we use in Mathematics (and so applicable to ALL specialisations that use Mathematics)
(4) Categories of basic emotions

The categories are 'foundation setting' pre written/spoken words etc. As such they can be considered 'meta-archetypes' if you like, sourced in feeling.

There is no interest in an local, social, dynamics that acts to 'colour' the archetypes, to ground them in local contexts - that is not the intent of IDM - the focus is on (a) identifying HOW we derive meaning and so understand 'in here'in general before we go charging off to specialisations-school, and (b) as a SEED for AI systems to develop their own sense of meaning/language.

> I guess one other point I'd loft is that the I Ching has long long ago
> lost its true relevance, some may gasp and growl at me saying this,
> and I certainly can understand why. Yet the reason I would utter such
> blasphemy is only to acknowledge the fact that I am not living in the
> culture the I ching was a product of--for unless one is fully emersed
> in the cultural context in which any language, oracle or writting of
> any kind for that matter was generated, then one will miss many of the
> all important subtlties inherient to a structure and system like the I
> Ching.
>

;-) I understand your perspective but IMHO it comes out of a general ignorance across our collectives as to how 'in here' works, its universal nature, and so how understanding 'in here', free of any particular collective's perspective, allows us to refine our perspectives at the level of understanding of the species in general, not 10th century BC China in particular.

The ICPlus material introduces methods of analysis that transcends ANY of the published material to date; in so doing it (a) covers the 'how does it work?' issue and (b) introduces a wider understanding of how we create and use analogies/metaphors in general and introduces deeper patterns of meaning derived from analysis of the method used to derive core meaning - recursion of dichotomies.

Your proses indicates you keep grounding yourself in language but I think you use the term from a linguistics perspective - that is limiting in that to comprehend what is going on re information processing you need to go down to the level of the METHOD used by neurons in general to process information. That means grounding in neurosciences etc and that is what the IDM work does. as such, we focus on the immediate, the properties and methods of instincts/habit and so behaviours pushed by context. From there we then move into the realm of the delayed, the serial from which the spoken/written word has developed.

By understanding how the brain processes information, using such dynamics as XOR/AND (see page on paradox processing - http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html) so we can apply those dynamics at all levels of information processing, and that includes, for example, extracting parts information from any hexagram (using XOR - see http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/linemean.html)


> The only reason the I Ching still exists is because people enjoy it
> and go to it, it is open and flexable, it is warm and gentle in the
> way it invites folks to see and imagine--yet I feel that to imply that
> its logic is universal and declare its method absolute is to go too
> far and over simplify and gloss over much of what is truely involved.
>

The only reason the I Ching still exists is because it reflects VERY WELL the manner in which our brains work using recursion of dichotomies of two types - symmetric and asymmetric. The meaning generated in using the IC 'resonates' with qualities 'in here'. There is a REALLY BIG picture at work here, but our consciousness is PARTS oriented and so out of touch with that big picture 'immediately' - all we can do is analyse parts and infer from there ;-)

Thus, despite any 'attacks' on the IC divination processing etc, there IS 'something' there and IDM identifies what that 'something' is - resonance with our core sense of meaning.

I would suggest you go through the IDM material, the ICPlus material, the MBTIPlus material, the MathsPlus material to 'get' what we are dealing with. Believe me, once you start to 'get it' it can be a humbling experience ;-) ... until you live with it for a while and then it is 'every day' stuff! ;-)

(given the developing understanding of the 'big picture' so the focus on divination changes - to such methods as http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/proact.html )

> As is said many times on this forum--context is everthing, to change
> the context in which you view the I Ching is to change the I ching
> itself.
>

Yes and no. To understand the UNIVERSAL "I Ching" can 'influence' or re-configure understanding of the ancient material but in doing so 'lifts' the perspective overall, shows the universal nature of the methodology and so how easy it is for others to 'resonate' with that method re deriving meaning. Words are immaterial when it comes down to the nitty gritty of meaning - of FEELING things to be 'right' or 'wrong' or inbetween etc etc. In IDM we are dealing with meaning derived at levels of the non-verbal communications (emotions etc) - as such the qualities in the IC are 'embedded' in our neurology.

It can be hard for traditionalists to 'get into' the IDM/ICPlus material since it comes up with material that one would think, in the 3000+ years of the IC history, should have come up before. IOW in their 'intense' analysis of the IC they have not come across the explicit nature of the material presented such that either (a) they missed something, something 'big' or (b) due to their specialisation they never questioned that specialistion, they never stepped out of the box and into the general box!

With (b), that is understandable in that we have not, until very recent times, been in a position to understand the general - now we are in such a position and IDM maps it out in general.

Our instincts/habits are encoded into the input areas, the dendrites, of our neurons. This is energy-conserving in that it allows context to push us - is it does in all neuron-dependent life forms. Add to this the development of consciousness where external 'push' is complemented by internal 'pull' etc.

Note that ignorance of 'in here' has ment that 'imaginative' interpretations of events by our young consciousness has led to the entrenchment of those interpretations in every day life - e.g. see http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/angels.html

All generic meaning is defined by the method used to derive it and in our brains that appears to be through recursion of differentiating/integrating - aka WHAT/WHERE, aka Yang/Yin etc etc With the development of consciousness so there is an increase in precision is communcations through the use of re-labelling universal qualities to elicit difference. This focus on eliciting difference from sameness is a property of asymmetric dichotomies - aka WHAT/WHERE, differentiating/intergrating - the dichotomy our brain favours (and reflects the 'fractal' nature of the neuron where the axon/dendrite dynamic reflects recursion of differentiating(FM, axon)/integrating(AM, dendrites)).

> Essentially the I ching is an interpretation, or more aptly put an
> interpretive act--this is a point I have belabored by now, but it is
> an important point--in that as an interpretation it is rooted in
> nothing. One cannot ground the I Ching or attach it to anything per
> se, one cannot even affix it to the brain, for it is a product of the
> brain, and a path of the mind. The best one can do in my mind is
> declare the I Ching to be a nonsubstansive component of thought--it
> does not lend itself to quantitative description just as how one
> cannot empirically describe the color green to any degree that even
> approaches absolute certainty.
>

Again I think you need to peruse the IDM material. Your perspective here is valid for a past time where we did not have access to the neurosciences etc data we have now. The IC is a specialisation, where all specialisations are metaphors, sources of analogy, to describe core qualities our brains use in communicating - patterns of differentiating/integrating.

> By this point I have already gone past directly addressing the matter
> you raise, and fear I may have done nothing more than raise several
> points with which you and many others here may well wish to argue
> vigorously. My intention is not to argue, nor do I seek to insult, or
> somehow degrade the beliefs of anyone here--I simply found much of
> what you said to be interesting and was prompted to toss my two cents
> in.
>
>

The IDM material, and with it ICPlus etc has been on the web since 1995. The 'original' site was:

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond

The current site with the most recent material is:

http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb

The ICPlus material operates off:

http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/newindex.html

it has been well argued-over and will continue to be in that it is 'new' and as such can 'upset' some ;-)

Every person on this planet could write their own IC. Each IC would be particular, making assocations, in local, and so specialist, languages, to local context to express/describe the universal qualities being experienced. However, analysis of each of those interpretations/translations will bring out the ONE set of generic, and so universal, qualities we use as a species to derive meaning - as covered in IDM with blending, bonding, bounding, and binding. The 'stimulus/response' dynamic is complemented, refined, by a 'higher' level of information processing, mediation/representation. Once the mediation and representation is 'complete' so we conserve energy to fall back on context pushing ;-)

Chris.

 

[heylise]

Dobro,
Maybe the only problem is, that you keep seeing 37 as saying "everything IS in its right place". That is not what I said. I said GET it in its right place. Which is what every family head can relate to...
37 is not positive or negative, Yi tries to give an advice, not to tell you if things are good or bad.
LiSe

 

[dobro p]

Yeah, I'm aware of the difference. Thing is, when I draw a hexagram, it always seems to be an image of the situation I'm in now, rather than an image of the situation I should get myself into. If there's something I should do in a situation, the Yi will mention it.

But having said that, I can also see the need in my life generally (and in the situation this toss related to) to 'get everything in its right place'. So I'll keep the possibility of what you said in mind. In other words, when I draw any hexagram, I'll look at two possibilities:

* This where I am now.

* This is where I need to be now.

See, the reason I've always taken the former as the way to go is that I've always seen the Yi as a 'revealer of what is present in the situation' rather than a 'revealer of what could be' in a situation. But if a hex or line could be *either* then it increases the flexibility of the oracle. And the complexity lol.

But whichever way I take with this, the idea of 'everything in its own, its right, place' is really useful for my understanding of Hex 37. Maybe it means 'get everything in its right place'. If so, I'll see it more easily with that idea from you.

 

[omshante]

please allow me to extend the thread

dobro you made a call to lise, whom i presume to be female. the Yi has strong links to ancient chinese shamanism, thought be the oldest world religion (8000yrs)
'the heart of shamanism is its belief in two worlds:
the material physical world
the superior, spiritual world'

it is the shamans role to communicate between these two worlds.
study into ancient chinese shamanism indicate that women were the 'chief' shamans essentially ruling 'the clan' (37). was your call to lise a subconscious call for a 'superior' wisdom, hence why there was perplexity around the Yi's response. i am presuming nothing, just asking.
37'the clan' talks of listening to the woman oracle and learning something.

lines from poem 37 from the shamanic oracle of change speaks as such....

come home, listen to the woman now
listen to her calm, her knowing - let go to her

she knows the inside of you.....

this may all sound a little romantic but really i think the spiritual voice of the Yi is just as significant as the voice of its keen scholars.

om

 

[dobro p]

Om - thanks for continuing with this thread - I'm finding it useful.

"was your call to lise a subconscious call for a 'superior' wisdom?"

On the surface, my call to Lise was hoping for useful input. (If it was subconscious, then I can't answer your question very intelligently lol.) But the conscious reason I addressed Lise was because Lise recently said something to me in another thread about 28.1.6 that made a lot of sense and was helpful for my understanding. So I thought I would address my new question to the same person, hoping for similarly useful input. And what Lise had to say *was* useful - I got an idea that was useful to me immediately, and I got another idea (a bigger idea, one that goes beyond just 37>36) that I'm going to be considering for a while. Plus I think Lise's style goes beyond the immediate hexagram and takes the bigger picture into consideration, and I like that - I think it humanizes the whole exchange.

But if Lise is a modern shaman, or the voice of feminine wisdom which I need now, that's all good.

 

[candid]

Dobro, I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[candid]

Hey, Dobro,

I did a reading this morning concerning my position on a certain personal matter, and received 11.2-36. I thought of you and your original thoughts here concerning the obvious contrast between what seems like a 'positive' and active line (11.2) combined with the darkness of 36. While I have no real problem sorting this out, I am curious if you would see the paradox with this reading as being similar to 37-36.

 

[brian]

Has anyone on the forum encountered this before?

http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/

 

[dobro p]

Candid - I read 11.2 as more or less neutral, more of a description of a change (or a required change, if I include what I learned from Lise here) than an indication of sth either auspicious or inauspicious. Sailing analogy: 11.2 tells me it's time to trim the sails, that's all.

I also see a connection between 'crossing the river' and 'leaving friends behind' in 11.2 and 'hiding your light' in 36. Things go 'out of sight' in 11.2.

I'd love to talk to the guys who put the Yi together on this issue. Sometimes the connection between an active line and its related hex is obvious, sometimes not. I'd like to ask those guys if there was any rhyme or reason to when they chose an obvious connection between the two and when they didn't. Hey...maybe they'd answer my question this way: "Well actually, we didn't *choose* what to write. It chose us." lol

 

[candid]

Thanks. Yeah, I see what you?re saying.

Well, if the guys who put this thing together operated from a position of 1-2, which I think they did, then it?s like the poet or song writer where the poem or song happens to you, more than you making it happen a certain contrived way.

 

[dobro p]

"Well, if the guys who put this thing together operated from a position of 1-2, which I think they did..."

Hm?

 

[candid]

d'oh! I had a killer headache when I wrote that this morning, so I probably left out a few sentences. lol

I was referring to your "I'd love to talk to the guys who put the Yi together on this issue" and I think I went off on a different track, speaking about the Yi in general - saying, that if they were operating from the position of hex. 1 and 2, then there may not have been as much "rhyme or reason" as many suspect. It may have come from the inspiration of hex. 1 and the receptivity of hex. 2, much as a poem comes to a poet; not completely consciously contrived, in other words.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Brian - check out "cymantics" using Google.

'in here' deals with frequencies, wavelengths, and amplitudes. Set off a 'vibe' and patterns will form...

An example link:

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro03/web1/klafrance.html

 

[megabbobby]

brian,

that is really interesting
i like that the doctor is dr 'emote'-o.