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sinbaru

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Maybe someone can help me undersand this reading?

How is this affecting my love life?
43.2


Specifically, I'm having a lot of trouble relating the moving line to the overall meaning of the hex. Is it making me fearful? What about all the weapons?
 

pargenton

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what exactly do you mean with "how is this.."
what is "this"?

anyway here are some words from LiSe which can be useful to you:

Do not take everything literal what people (or you) say. Often these are not tangible facts – they speak feelings, they express their own shadows or the shadows of the world. These words have truth too, they are telltale signs of a soul, of a time. Hear or speak them as such.

hugs
Paolo
 

dobro p

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"How is this affecting my love life? 43.2"

43.2 means something along the lines of 'alertness to danger provides security'. Keep your eyes open, in other words, and you don't get hurt. I don't know how that relates to the 'this' you mention, cuz you didn't say what 'this' is.

"Specifically, I'm having a lot of trouble relating the moving line to the overall meaning of the hex. Is it making me fearful? What about all the weapons?"

43's about decisive separation from something and going your own way. The individual lines are all variations or aspects of separation of some kind. My take on 43.2 is that you're separating yourself from the possibility of injury by being awake and alert.
 

ewald

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There are some differences between translations with this line. The Chinese character 莫 can mean both "evening" and "it is not," "in no way," or "nothing." In the other three lines where this character is used (33.2, 42.6, 53.5), most translators take it to mean the latter. And in my opninion that fits better in this line as well:
A cry of alarm.
It is not a night for battling,
do not worry.
Also, the Chinese character 恤 doesn't really mean "fear" (as Wilhelm translated it), it means "worry."

So this line is about being alarmed, while one isn't really under attack. One doesn't need to decide to fight. There is no reason for worry.
 

sinbaru

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I'm very sorry for taking so long to post a "Thank you" to everyone who responded. I'm still a little confused by the reading but I think I understand the general meaning and how it might relate to the situation: It's a picture of someone resolved and ready for something but also on perhaps a bit too much on guard about it.
 
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bruce_g

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Hi Ewald,

This certainly gives a different impression from what Wilhelm renders, and I notice Bradford’s translation pretty much agrees with yours. This is interesting, as it casts a very different light on a reading I had about four years ago.

I’m curious what you, Brad and others might have to say about Wilhelm stressing the importance of readiness. It gives an impression that though this is not a time for battle, that preparedness is still an important factor. Comments?
 

ewald

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Hi Bruce,

As the line text says "do not worry," I'd say that there is no real need for readiness/preparedness here.

Wilhelm's stressing of readiness and resolution comes from his interpretation that arms need to be there at evening and night, the times of the day when one usually rests. As said, that interpretation is in my view not correct.
 

dobro p

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The 'do not worry' line must be taken in the context of the text for the whole line, and that must be taken in the context of the overall hexagram meaning. My understanding of 43.2is this: it's by being wary that there's no worries. You separate yourself from danger by being wary.

The reason I think this is cuz I think the Yi shows us useful things to do, rather than what we've achieved already. I'm a guy, though. Women and others would probably read it differently.
 

ewald

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Dobro - That sounds like worrying in order to not worry. Makes no sense to me.
 
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bruce_g

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1. Legge renders 43.2 as: “The second NINE, undivided, shows its subject full of apprehension and appealing (for sympathy and help). Late at night hostile measures may be (taken against him), but he need not be anxious about them.”

Now, that makes no sense to me. Not be anxious about hostile measures taken against you late at night? Wouldn’t that depend on whether or not the threat was real or just imagined, i.e.: paranoia?

2. LiSe renders it: Fear, cries. In the evening and night there are weapons. Do not worry.

This seems to say that because there are weapons, one can sleep at night without worry. This is also how I interpret Wilhelm’s translation and commentary.

Or, is LiSe’s translation saying that the weapons aren’t necessary, and neither are the worries?

There’s a fundamental philosophical difference between these meanings. To my thinking, it makes more sense to be prepared than it does to be blissfully indifferent to danger. If one raises the meaning to a ‘spiritual’ level, I could see a pacifist perspective here, but line 2 generally doesn’t speak in terms of spiritual or idealistic but of practical.

hmm
 

ewald

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Bruce - There may be weapons, but one still has to use them to one's advantage. Just that they are there is not enough to stop one from worrying, it might merely diminish the worrying a bit.

Isn't it a bit strange that there are weapons in the evening and night? Are they not there at day? There is no mention of weapons needing to arrive or something.
 
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bruce_g

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Ewald,

mm, it depends if weapons refers to literal offensive weapons, or if it can refer to defenses, such as locking your doors before you retire for the evening and at night. I know that I sleep better at night with the doors locked. And having Mojo (my dog) sleeping at the foot of my bed is also reassuring. This is how I’ve always interpreted 43.2, and it’s why I’m trying to be open minded to see it another way. Frankly though, I’m struggling with it.

As for your night and day question, I often walk in the desert during daylight. I’m much less at ease wandering there in the middle of the night, and if I did, you can bet I’d be carrying a weapon. The psychology seems applicable to sleeping at home in bed, as well, though the Yi makes no distinction where one is sleeping.
 

ewald

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Bruce - 戎 means warfare, war, battle and also instruments of warfare, arms, weapons, shields, armor, equipment. It is in 13.3, 43.0 and 43.2. I'd say it goes a bit further than just locking your doors. It refers to actual fighting.

As to your example of carrying a weapon when in the desert in the evening or night, you do it because you're not at ease - so because you worry that it is dangerous there. Not worrying is not realistic in that situation.
 
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lightofreason

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43

Line 2
A person of some administrative skill has correctly setup sentries such that warning of danger comes in time. [overcome obstructions]

The context as 43 covers promotion of a 'mindset' in a robust manner - IOW 'seeding', spreading the word, complements 23 'pruning' - getting back to 'the word'.

Included in this act of seeding is a need to defend against alternative 'seedings' going on at the same time (the context is competitive in which is operating the cooperative). Changing of line 2 introduces fire and so a boundary focused on acceptance - within is 'our gang' and outside is 'other'. However, unlike water where the focus on protection is contracting, here it is expanding and if need be any 'enemies' will be assimilated anyway ;-) (all that perseverence/singlemindedness about!) ;-)

Chris.
 
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bruce_g

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Ewald,

Going to Bradford's translation:
Frightened and calling out
This is not the night for hostilities
Do not worry
43.2x Do not worry about hostilities:
Find the middle path

It sounds like saying, "Chill, there's nothing to worry about tonight."

I get this from what you're saying here also.

Chris, I get what you're saying. In your comments there is what Wilhelm talks about, in that “A person of some administrative skill has correctly setup sentries such that warning of danger comes in time.” This is intelligent preparedness, if I understand it correctly.

So, there’s still these two somewhat opposing views.
 

ewald

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Bruce - Yes, my previous comments were to show why I disagree with LiSe's and Wilhelm's renderings. I mostly agree with Bradford's rendering of 43.2.
 
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jesed

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Just in case the comment could be useful

1.- If one see the "Judgement", one can see a) there is danger, and it means that it is a real danger and not paranoia b) this danger must be faced and solved, in order to suffer no harm c) even so, one must no use weapons to solve this danger d) so, other kind of measures must been taken to solve the danger. The line should be understanding within this overall context

2.- Some comments about the "Image" points to take in good time preventive measures in order to avoid get into unsolvable danger. Like open the leaves before they fall apart (remember the thread about New Orleans and 43?)

3.- "Be ready" is not exactly the same to "be worry". It is more clear in spanish than english: in spanish we have a quotation "no me preocupo, me ocupo"
It can be translate like: " I don't worry (by the problem), I'm active (to solve the problem)"

4.- The image of 43.2 is like the guardian of a seaged city. In deed, there is danger, but there would be no atack that night. That doesn't mean that peace would come, neither that he can rest. Just means is not the precise moment of battle yet.

5.- This is reinforced in the line that shows the effect of 43.2 (what Bradford calls fan yao). 49.2 Revolution happens only in the precise time.

6.- You can see that 43 is a way to avoid 49... only when you missed to solve the tension before colapse, revolution arrives. In other words, in 43 is not time for weapons yet, but they would come if you don't solve the problem by other measures.

7.- So, the fact that is not a night for battle, and one must not fear about being attacked that night, doesn't mean that the problem is solved and one don't need to take other measures anymore

Best wishes
 
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bruce_g

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Jesed,

I follow your reasoning, and it makes sense to me.

So far my original understanding is unchanged. While I don’t (can’t) translate, I do use (as Dobro mentioned) useable and practical sense, as such:

If you are prepared you can relax.

Applied to Sinbaru’s original question, “How is this affecting my love life?” this makes complete sense. By being prepared (fortified), you can be secure.
 
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bruce_g

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Ewald (or Brad),

How, in practical terms, would you interpret your 43.2 translation, as applied to the question asked at the beginning of this thread?
 

ewald

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As Sinbaru said, this is about being over-prepared, being too much on guard.

Jesed - If I understand you correctly from (1), you are concluding from the hexagram text (judgment) that all lines are about some real danger, which must be solved without resorting to weapons, yes?

How is for instance 43.5 about danger? I have:
Amaranth on the land,
decide, decide!
Targeted action is without fault.
(3) Being active is actually not the same as being ready. One can be ready without doing anything.

(7) But there is no indication what the real problem is. It's only clear from this line that one was alarmed without there being a real need to stand up for oneself. The alarm might have been about something that might turn into nothing, into a real attack at a later stage, or into a change in how the people concerned relate to each other (for the better, for instance). There is no way to tell from just this line.
 

ewald

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bruce_g said:
How, in practical terms, would you interpret your 43.2 translation, as applied to the question asked at the beginning of this thread?
Something happened that alarmed Sinbaru about the love relationship. He got worried and this made him prepare for a danger that wasn't really there. Like he said, he was too much on guard. He actually doesn't need to worry. Thus he'll open up to what's really happening in the situation, instead of spending time (and perhaps loosing sleep) over an imagined danger.
 
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jesed

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Hi Ewal

1.- If you read carefully, I wrote that the danger must be faced and solved, only not by using weapons but with other kind of measures. That aplies to 43.5 as well.

"Not using weapons" don't mean "don't decide and put it in action your resolution".

Onthe other hand, "Targeted action", as you translate, not necesarly mean using weapons, right?

43.5: It's Cause in 20.5; it's effect in 34.5

So, first a cleaver understanding of the situation (20.5), then a firmly resolution to act (43.5), finally resistence ends and one don't need to use the force anymore (34.5)

2.- Of course, I'm not saying that the quotation I quoted is a fit translation for 43.2. But I still say that be ready (either active or pasive) is not the same than be worry. In this, I'm completely with Bruce's common sense

3.- Yes, there is no indication to what the problem is; that helps ut to apply this line to ANY PROBLEM we are facing when asking the Yi (like some problem that I believe is affecting my love life... i don't need to ask the consultant what the problem is ;) ).

And, again, if you read closely my comment, I started by saying that I understand the line at the light of the overall picture of the hexagram, and not taking the line alone.

Of course, when you contradict my comment saying that There is no way to tell from just this line, that lead us to the question about how is the best way to understand the meaning of any line (the meaning, not just the literal translation):
a) taking the line alone (as you suggest),
b) at the light of it's interconections (not only within it's hexagram, but fan yao, for example, and other tools)

Best wishes
 

heylise

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I have been following this thread very interested. This line has always been a difficult one, it got never entirely clear for me.
But now, with all the thinking and reading, I did find a meaning, which is satisfying to me, but it is very different from Ewald's. So I will not mess up the thread with a yes-no discussion, you can find mine here:

http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/hex_33-48/hex_e_43.htm

One thing about "evening" and "not". Not is a later meaning, so it seemed to me, that it could very well be, that it was still in the Yi. There are more old characters, which got different meaning in later times, and which make still a good sentence with that later meaning, but when you substitute the old one for it in the Yi, it happens often, that it makes more sense.

LiSe
 
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bruce_g

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Ewald,

Very interesting. I could (sort of) see that interpretation.

I'm still not yet resolved on this line. It seems to me that if the answer was to release care, he would have received something along the lines of 40 or 59, possibly 54 or 41.

And your answer doesn't provide a means or reason to be secure. There's no fortification involved, at least as I understand what you've said. Preparedness is still a key factor here; I'm quite certain of that.
 
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jesed

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Just to clarify my point

I agree with Ewald about "Like he said, he was too much on guard. He actually doesn't need to worry"; but, in my point of view, this apply both if the danger is real or imagined.
 

ewald

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Jesed - (1) Sure, but what is the danger in 43.5? I see this as a situation where one stumbles upon Amaranth, an eadible plant, and one needs to decide whether to make time for collecting it right now. I don't see how there is danger involved here.

(3) Anyway, worrying can very much inspire one to prepare. I never equated the two.

I'm not deciding on the meaning of a line from it's text alone. I do take the hexagram theme into consideration, but I do not equate that theme with the hexagram text (judgment). The theme is directly related to the hexagram name, the hexagram text is in my view just one of the situations in it, just like the lines are, although usually closer to the hexagram theme than the lines.
 

ewald

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http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/hex_33-48/hex_e_43.htm
Okay, that's more along Bruce's line of a page or so back.

heylise said:
One thing about "evening" and "not". Not is a later meaning, so it seemed to me, that it could very well be, that it was still in the Yi. There are more old characters, which got different meaning in later times, and which make still a good sentence with that later meaning, but when you substitute the old one for it in the Yi, it happens often, that it makes more sense.
I have no problem with using the meaning evening or dusk in the Yi, if it fits in the context.
Just noting that you used the other meaning of 莫 (it is not, in no way, or nothing) in the other lines it is in (33.2, 42.6 and 53.5).
 
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jesed

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Dear Ewald

1.- Maybe it is my bad english, but dobro said "it's by being wary that there's no worries", and you responded That sounds like worrying in order to not worry. Makes no sense to me
In my bad english, dobro's comment was in the same line than Bruce, Wilhelm and myself (being ready for what it could come, being caution, being wary, is the best way to avoid being worry). From there, I understood that you equated being ready for what it could come, being caution, being wary to being worry.

2.- About 43.5, I notice that you translate as amaranth, so there is no danger at sight. But you can notice than several other translations and comments see it no as amaranth, but as a wild green (darnel, in Wilhelm) that risk the crops, so they need to be uprotted not in order of harvest, but to avoid harm to the crops.

3.- I would like to know how did you translate the name of this hexagram, to understand you better. The theme, according with the name in your translation, has to do with imagated danger?, paranoia?

At least in the translations I trust, the theme, according with the name, has to do with resolution (decisiveness, in Bradford's translation), not only like making a choise or having an idea, but as determination and the inner state of will to face and solve a present trouble or risk or temptation. To clarify... at this light, the theme is the inner state of will, and not the external issue to solve by resolution (either real or imaginated)

Best wishes
 
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bruce_g

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That’s pretty much my view as well, Jesed. 43 is about standing up, not about standing down or dropping posture of defense, especially in the presence of potential danger.

Interesting discussion, imo, and I’ve gone full circle with it, arriving at my earlier conclusion that, inner security is established through preparedness.

Though Chris doesn’t subscribe to traditional translations exclusively, I think he’s nailed line 2: “A person of some administrative skill has correctly setup sentries such that warning of danger comes in time.” And as LiSe’s comment of line 2 says: “When a tribe sets up camp, they post sentries so the rest can sleep.” Then there is no cause to cry or be alarmed.

In matters of love/romance/relationships, insecurity is the worst message to send to a potential mate, lover or friend. The way to security is in being prepared, even for the worst. If the inside is fortified, there’s no alarm. You hold yourself “up”, not fold under pressure or compromise your seal.
 

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