Material questions

[candid]

Asking questions regarding the purchase of ?things? seems somehow beneath the deeper sort of questions we often ask about things like, social engagements, relationships, etc. But is it?

When my friend and I first became involved with the I Ching a mutual friend of ours, a skeptic, threw the coins asking whether or not it was a good idea to by a new Porsche. My friend and I thought it was a superfluous question to be asking, and neither of us was surprised when he received 4 with no change lines. How foolish, we thought. Well, this man did buy the Porsche, as well as a new Saab for his young wife. He also went on to own a new Ferrari, a private Mig Jet, plus several other expensive toys. Now, in retrospect, I?ve come to realize that his first reading some 32 years ago explained that he was entering a new period of prosperity in his life, and that his question was neither superfluous nor foolish. His 4 was simply entering into something new in his life: wealth.

A couple of weeks ago I started considering buying a new acoustic guitar. I?m not exactly in tall clover money wise, but this type of axe would be very useful in the band I?ve been playing with on weekends, and so the online research began for the right guitar at the right price. (I unfortunately have expensive taste.) After much searching I found a great deal on a new one and also another one in great shape on eBay for obviously less money. I?ve been negotiating with it?s owner now for a few days, as the auction ended with him not getting his price. This morning he came back to me with another offer.

Since I?m aware that my desire to own this item is at least partly passion driven rather than purely practical, I decided to ask Yi whether it was a good idea to go ahead and purchase it, not without a degree of intrepidation on my part, I should add.

My answer was 27:1,6 to 2. I found it pretty humorous and also very instructive at the same time. To paraphrase: (line 1) If your going to whine and pout about it, stop dreaming and just do it! (line 6) You (meaning me) are the source of paying for it, and the one who will be playing it. You also are a source of inspiration to the others in the band, and the source of music to those who listen to the music. (Yes, I?m buying it!)

Has anyone else here wrestled with the appropriateness of asking such material questions about buying something you?d like, just for the shear enjoyment of having it?

 

[void]

Sometimes I have asked a question along the lines of "is it okay to buy this". What I'm really checking out at such times (though I've done it rarely) is am I being foolishly extravagent, am I being silly, and can I afford it. I ask can I afford it, cos in my view we don't really know what we can afford yet, money is mysterious stuff, comes and goes. Sometimes the value of something for us in the long run so far outweighs the cost that in retrospect we wonder what we did all the dithering about.

Anyway i have always found the Yi to be responsive and accurate in answer. I remember once the advice was along the lines of lighten up, have some fun, take a break - so I bought the thing in question and never regretted it. Another occasion the advice was certainly to be economical and NOT splash out.

I see nothing wrong in questions of this sort - often the question is so tied in with our value system, it isn't really just the desired item we're asking about.

I have reservations about consulting Yi for example on the movement of the stock market - not keen on that idea - though as I know nothing about it I've never had occasion to do that.

Anyway yes Candid I think the answer you got was spot on, and rather funny. Enjoy the guitar, close your mouth and stop panting for it - its yours boy.

 

[cheiron]

Yup ? I like that heheheh

I have used the Yi for Ebay bidding quite a few times ? I once ignored it on a camera lens and got a good price ? I forget the reading now ? but sure as eggs the lens was ?obscured?.

It has proved very good at giving me the best bid window and price ? It has also told me not to bother and sure enough a silly bidder hit in late on.

I must admit I am surprised at the clarity of readings I get at these times for very less than important things?

Hope your axe is a good one ? enjoy ? I am sure I would love to here you play one day

--Kevin

PS - Nice one Void

 

[candid]

Void, great response, thanks! I can relate to all you've said.

Kevin, oops on the lens, and I've bought a couple of not-so-good choices through eBay as well. Sight unseen is always a little daunting, especially when the item is used.

Not long ago I decided I wanted a back-up guitar amp and found my exact duplicate, no longer made, on eBay. I asked about it and received 44 no changes. I though, ut oh, I'm acting unreasonably. Meanwhile I was emailing back and forth with the seller trying to get him to pick up the shipping charges. In the process the amp sold from under me, and I lost the auction which ended at an incredibly good price. I don't know who I was more upset with, me or Yi! But I just misinterpreted 44, I think. I wound up buying another which showed up later at a higher price and in lesser condition. Grrrr! Of course there's no way to know if there was something wrong with the first one I almost won. (Don't ya love that word, won? As if you're getting it for free.)

This is a higher end Takamine Garth Brooks signature. Though I don't play his type of music I've always loved the live sound he gets from it, bright but warm, articulated and big. The user reviews on it are outstanding.

I just learned that the guy I bought it from needs the money to help pay to treat his cancer, which he's only found out about a couple of weeks ago. Somehow, though sad, it makes the purchase feel more right. Guess the Yi knows about that too.

 

[jte]

On buying a car for Shannon (my fiance) we had a nice Corolla lined up, but decided to keep looking - I asked about the situation and got 25.4 ("if you can remain firm and correct, no error") - sure enough we went around to dealerships, ended up with hard-sell types playing games trying to get us to buy cars we didn't really want. Came back later and the nice Corolla was still there, so got it.

I paid for half the car (present for her finishing her Ph.D.) but had some neurotic anxiety about it - "oh no! what if she gets into an accident, etc, etc." Asked about that and got a "no repentance" line - this made me feel better and so far so good (it's been about a year) she's had no troubles.

A while back I remember posting about buying stock too (towards the end of the thread).

- Jeff

 

[midaughter]

Disagreeing with everyone: it speaks of being foolish and immature, something not worthy of the Superior Person. I don't care what sequence or tortured interpretation one may attempt, this reading is not equivocal. I have received this for people when a)staying in flea bag of transients and worse of a hotel both in WA and Mexico. b}I have received this when the Sage has decided the person should not drink or smoke and is doing so at the time the question is asked.
this answer has popped up without responding to the question in this way: The Sage feels free to interject and interpret when the querent is acting the fool.

Sun

 

[midaughter]

I guess I should add a word about rampant materialism, living beyond one's means, if applicable, or just placing value on what is after all, a car, a thing.

 

[candid]

Sunpuerh,

Fair enough, but let me ask you, would you also consider questions concerning one's livelihood as being equally vain and foolish? It is the means, after all, which permits the increase of material things to a person's life.

Also, is there no such thing as a wealthy Sage, or at least a Sage with material possessions? Would such a Sage purchase indiscriminately, or might he ask Yi for council concerning a questionable purchase?

I once held an extremely high-minded and purist view of Yi also. Since then I?ve learned Yi can be extremely practical, including with economic concerns. An exalted approach can be equally delusional in that one can take their self importance too seriously.

C

 

[Sparhawk]

IMHO, it all comes down to the attitude of the querent at the moment of casting the hexagram. If the querent has sincerity and the question at hand is really important to him, whatever the issue may be, there should be no repentance. On the other hand, if there is a little voice in the back of your head saying: "don't bug the sage with this"; you may be on the wrong path.

In my own personal quest, it is that little voice that keeps me from casting more often for myself (other than the fact that sometimes ignorance is bliss...) Damned voices! Is there a professional in the house??

Luis

 

[RindaR]

If there were one or two, my guess is that little voice might tell them to be still...

 

[RindaR]

;-)

Rinda

 

[candid]

Luis, hmmmm, but I wonder if a mother or father would mind being bugged by a child's question, no matter how obvious the answer appeared to them.

There've been times I've had that little voice saying 'don't bug the Sage with this', and I asked anyway, and received an articulate answer. I think its the repeated question or the question implying doubt that goes unanswered, leading to confusion.

 

[hilary]

'Yi is a document that should not be set at a distance.
Its dao is ever-changing,
alternating and moving without rest,
flowing through the six vacant places,
moving up and down without rule.
Whole and broken lines change places,
With no consistent principle:
alternation is all that happens.
Going and coming within limits
gives warning without and within,
shedding light on trouble and its causes,
not as a guide or teacher,
but like a parent at one's side.'

The Dazhuan (Great Treatise), II,8, Richard Rutt's translation from his Zhouyi.

'I wonder if a mother or father would mind being bugged by a child's question...'
Candid, 2004.

 

[candid]

Hilary, I'm not embarrassed easily but the connection is humbling.

I guess its a matter of how responsible the question is. Not only the intent but the maturity, because a father or mother would also expect their child to have already learned certain things, such as their 16 year old asking: will this boiling water burn me? I could only imagine, as the child, receiving a long, steady, and silent stare from the father, possibly a reassuring hug from the mother, and uproarious laughter from the Sage!

 

[heylise]

When Candid and his friend received 4, I don't think the Yi told them they were foolish. It is one of the few places, where the Yi steps out of the shadows and speaks as a person: a "me". "Young ignorant seek me", nothing added about restrictions. And: "not me seek young ignorant": he does not care about what the young ignorant does. Only when he is asked a question, he answers. And the part about not asking several times - your own common sense tells you, that asking the same question, and getting different answers, only confuses. Besides, Innocent never asks twice. He gets an answer, and innocently he takes it as THE answer. And then it is.

Hex.4 is not only about the fool, it is also about the very young, ignorant, innocent part deep inside, which asks any question, has no human morals but no evil either, and is in the very happy circumstance to be entirely free from any human preconceptions. And 4 is also the sage himself, who happens to be very alike to the innocent ignorant. Also without human restrictions, but with the wisdom of universal values.

If you think, asking about material things is 'bad', then why do you have any? And if having a car is not bad, then asking about it is not bad either.

I had to wait until now with my mail, because I threw water on my monitor (Mercury again!), but I tied the vacuum-cleaner's mouth on the little holes, and that dried it beautifully. After Hilary's great quote, hardly anything can be added, but I did not want to throw my work away, so here it is.

LiSe

 

[candid]

LiSe, your work and words are always greatly appreciated. I love your explanation.

Small detail correction: it wasn't my or my friend's question. We stood in judgment of a third friend's question, thinking him a fool. I've only rethought his answer some 30+ years later, realizing that it was our reaction and not his question that was foolish.

 

[Sparhawk]

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Luis, hmmmm, but I wonder if a mother or father would mind being bugged by a child's question, no matter how obvious the answer appeared to them.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean you guys don't time out your kids for two or three weeks when they come to you with silly questions? Darn! I stand corrected then.

Seriously though, I think you've made a very good point. I suppose then that the real issue must be one of maturity, or lack thereof, when approaching the Yi.

You will always get an answer from the Yi (I've never seen all three coins falling on their side six times or the yarrow spontaneously combusting in my hand). There are answers and there are Answers though. In that regard, everybody will see in those answers what they will and apply them to their question. Is what they've got.

In your particular case, Candid, and this is not a critic, I have observed many times that you are one of the very few people I know who can extract goodness out of any hexagram, regardless of the situation. I honestly wish I had that attitude of yours.

Luis

 

[lenardthefast]

But, Luis, aren't all of them composed of both positive and negative qualities? As is everything in this material world? Candid just CHOSES to see the positive side, I think. And, that also, can be seen as either positive or negative. IMHO, it all depends on your/mine/our point of view.

Did that make sense, or, did I just enclose myself in a conundrum?

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[Sparhawk]

Leonard, I believe the Yi can be everything to everybody. This is the reason you can divine the "10,000 things" with only 64 hexagrams. I hesitate to use one Chris' theories but I think there is something in his belief that every hexagram is a metaphor for every other.

That's why I don't find it wrong that Candid, or anyone else, has the attitude to find the good in all of them. My views however are more pragmatic. This, I think, has everything to do with personality and not with actual inner workings of the Yi, whatever they may be in reality.

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

IMHO, it all depends on your/mine/our point of view.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've hit it right on the head.

Luis

 

[cheiron]

A thought?

A man asks the Yi whether he should put his last ten pounds on a horse ? the Yi answers and helps him win 50 pounds. He goes home and is so pleased hi gives his daughter 20.00 as she is going to a party. She uses the Taxi and was not on the late night bus where a rapist was lurking? but they will never know that?

My experience is that the Yi is very quick to knock questions back if the focus is the wrong one for that time.

I suspect Candid?s friend did get the ?new beginning? resonance of Meng. Reading Siddhartha as a young man I was shocked at the idea that many great Yogis might come back as successful business men? But I wonder? That too is another part of life ? lessons to learn ? non the least about coping with power and having to learn restraint ? see how many rich quick go to the wall on drugs?

As for my Camera lens question? perhaps the Yijing was teaching me something about divination and the lens mattered not at all? I will never know the second? but I learned a lot about the former? I seem to remember I was very focussed on those interpretations

The Yi actually went on to help me get my money back in an odd but very life teaching way.

My view is therefore I cannot tell.

--Kevin

 

[lenardthefast]

Kevin,

If the man wanted his horse to win, why would he handicap the poor beast by placing ten extra pounds on it? Seems like he would have put a lighter jockey on instead! You Brits have the weirdest ways to win races. Thank god the horse was strong and overcame this thoughtless manuever.

Namaste,

Leonard

 

[cheiron]

heheheh

Funny old world

Grin

(How much does Dolores weigh?)

--K

 

[lenardthefast]

No, Kev,

The proper question (I think), should be; "How long is a piece of string?"

Namaste,
Leonard

 

[cheiron]

--K

 

[void]

The other day I left two apples and a banana accidentally at the supermarket checkout. I had paid for them but somehow missed picking them up. When I got in I felt a little unhappy at losing my fruit, I was in a fruit eating mood.

Later that day I went to a class, unbeknown to me it was cancelled. There were no lights on but I went in the room anyway. On a side table lay 2 apples and a banana. I took one apple and ate it, i could not resist. But later I thought that was very strange, maybe those 2 apples and a banana were kind of mine, I should have taken them.

I don't know why I relate this. It probably fits with my crazy theory about material objects. We are connected to them and they follow or answer our will more than we know. Often if there is something I want and I do not have the money etc, the thing is found by me or given to me or something like that. One day last year I could hardly afford food. Three times that day I was given food half price or free, for odd reasons. One shopkeeper declared the pastie was burnt, another said he thought my baked potato had not been fit for consumption and gave me a refund. A friend for some strange reason left me a large meal later that day in the kitchen. I wish it worked that way with money. Alas it does not seem
to. Money must have a different sort of energy.

 

[cheiron]

Void - So much truth in what you say.

My experience is that one must trust and be open to the energy you decribe... then what we need comes.

When I was living in the Caribbean and getting very low on funds... (I had orderred up my last few funds from my bank in the UK and only had $5.00 US in my pocket.

I went to the local bank and they put me on the phone to the UK - My last money had got lost in transit.

I walked back to the harbour lost in desolation.

A guy came up to me (he was a sailor too) and he simply said, "I?ve been ripped off, am hungry and have no money" - I could see he not a druggy...

I gave him my last bill.

Later that day a skipper from another boat came to me - said he had heard about this and that and would I come to dinner - during dinner he lent me $500.00 and gave me a job in California -Air ticket in hand...

I am sure the two events were related.

--K

 

[cheiron]

Oh, to Clarify - The guy who gave me the job knew nothing of the guy and the $5.00 - the things he had heard were other things - the relationship between the events were as your fruit.

--Kevin

 

[candid]

You are perfectly correct, I do seek the positive answer, no question about it. But, its not the positive answer alone that creates a positive solution, its doing whatever it takes to turn around the potential negatives that creates a positive eventual outcome. Not that I'm always successful, but usually when I'm not its due to stubbornness, arrogance or plain stupidity on my part. And for me at least, sometimes that perfectly ok because that also is a part of who and how I am: sometimes wrong, sometimes foolish, often unknowing.

I can not believe that the Yi would ever doom anyone to a negative outcome; there's always a key to what furthers, no matter what the reading. "Thus the superior man ___________." There's always a key to every door and every obstacle to success. I truly believe that. True, there are equally numbered pitfalls, but most pitfalls can be avoided through insight and prudence.

(this may get a little long winded here.. but)

An example of this happened just this morning. Most here know that I've been living a minimalist life for the last few years, a loner with very few possessions, and consequently, very little responsibility. This has been good in that's its cleansed me of some old toxic chaff. But its also led to a lonely existence.

For a long while I've been considering getting a dog to keep me company. But knowing what a hassle such a pet can sometimes be, how limiting they can make your life, I put it off. Last night I began researching various breeds and found myself scanning the local paper's classifieds to see if the right dog was available.

This morning the idea was more conscious, and I pondered going to the local animal shelter to see if "my" dog was there. But I was still tentative, and so I asked Yi (feeling quite foolish, btw) "is getting a dog at this time sensible?" My answer was 42.6 to 3. "He brings increase to no one. Indeed, someone even strikes him." Ok, now what the heck is that supposed to mean? It means that by not yielding myself, not availing myself.. to even a dog, it will be me that remains alone. That's like someone striking me, namely: me! I groaned at the relating hex, 3, thinking, oh great, just what I need, hassles at the beginning! But yet I do desire the increase.

I pondered and asked again, hoping for clarification, or some excuse to not have to accept responsibility, and received 48.5,6 to 18. 'Dig deep, Candid.. you can do it, there?s a key here.'

I went to the animal shelter and walked back and forth looking at dogs and a few cats. No one dog jumped out at me with my name in his/her eyes, but one did have all the attributes I'd been looking for. (he's an 8 month old golden lab/retriever mix) I spent an hour bonding with him in their yard. I leashed him and walked him, had him sit, play with a squeaking ball and wrestled him a little. And I took him home.

Other than peeing on the carpet once (3 remember?), we've walked, played, trained.. and I'm enjoying the hell out of him, and there's a little spot in me that was vacant that I know is being filled. 42.

Asking Yi whether to buy a dog? Foolish indeed. There's always a key.

Oh, I named him Mojo.

 

[void]

Hi Kevin, in your story you consciously gave something away, a kind and trusting act - I simply neglected to pick up my fruit, yet still it was 'returned' to me. Your story kind of has more sense, I was kind of baffled by the fruit experience (lol)

Candid I'm usually puzzled by 42,6. I see you took it to mean, if you don't increase anyone, even a dog, you are 'struck'. With that interpretation seems like Yi is saying you're wrong if you don't get a dog ? Did you feel really confident with that interpretation ? My immediate response was maybe it was saying if you have the dog, can you give increase to it ? ie care for it ? I don't doubt that you can by the way, just wondered how confident you felt with that interpretation.

Anyway

 

[void]

meant to say anyway, in my view a dogs always a bonus, wish i could have one.