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MBTI with I Ching extensions

lightofdarkness

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BTW - to get a 'quick' MBTI test, see http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/qmbt.html

For more prose on the types in general see such sites as

http://www.16types.com (especially the material in the Learn and Explore 'box' - left side of screen.

Then use the extensions above to see what is going on under the hood (in general of course ;-)) The IDM material allows for the extension of the MBTI way beyond 16 types etc ;-)

Chris.
 

yly2pg1

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Hi Chris,

Going thru the Q-test but get stuck with the meaning below. Could you elaborate further?

Would I/you classify person x as a social/cooperative type; a bias to values rather than facts?
 

lightofdarkness

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yang bias = differentiating, point oriented. facts, true/false.

yin bias = integrating, field oriented. values. right/wrong.

Both perspectives focus on dichotomisations, one is more into facts, logic, 'truth' etc the other more into values, ethics/morals etc.

The more social will often put their values ahead of facts in that the values maintain social integrity/position etc and so dealing with a 'truth' is 'delayed' until it is so in one's face that one has to deal with it!

If we focus on the notion of devotion, facts oriented is more devoted to self, values oriented more devoted to others/another.

LOCAL context can 'skew' these perspectives but in MBTI models so there is an underlying core 'bias', a universal, active at all times.

A related concept is in gaining identity through the context (yin) or by asserting one's own context (yang) - promotion of others vs promotion of self.

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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Note that RECURSION will encode the above dichotomies throughout all of any derived categories but the initial question sets a base behavioural context, a general, that is then distributed over all categories as we go deeper.

Reduce this all to 'core' elements and the three questions focus on a hierarchy of differentiating (yang) ve integrating (yin) such that we can ask the same question THREE times but always WITHIN the context set by the previous.

In IDM we have:

DDD - I differentiate to differentiate to so I can differentiate. This moves general to particular, is highly competitive (push AWAY) and maps to the trigram of heaven. (intense energy, light, charismatic etc etc - overall sensation seeking).

I could just ask the IDM questions format but many would not 'get it' with the terms being so 'vague'. Thus the ordering of the more 'crisper' questions of:

(1) facts vs values preference
(2) was/is/willbe vs could have been/in not/ could be
(3) reactive vs proactive

ANY alternatives, as long as they follow general to particular will 'work' in extracting a trigram/hexagram etc.

In the QMBT I have a fourth question that is not necessary in mapping IC to MBTI. - it just gives the full MBTI type. (the fourth question is more a focus on function than on structure).


Chris.
 

yly2pg1

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Both perspectives focus on dichotomisations, one is more into facts, logic, 'truth' etc the other more into values, ethics/morals etc.

The more social will often put their values ahead of facts in that the values maintain social integrity/position etc and so dealing with a 'truth' is 'delayed' until it is so in one's face that one has to deal with it!


But I find myself belongs to both ???
Quite difficult to mediate between both!

So, i end up being:

C INFP Seeker/Healer/Questor

or

K INTP Philosopher/Architect/Designer
 

lightofdarkness

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;-) no problem in IDM - in the MBTI you would be categorised as INXP where CONTEXT will elicit the T or F part of the X.

I started off as XNTP and have progressed to XNXP ;-)

In the IDM mapping of the MBTI qualities to the trigrams qualities we have the first part X, and so XNTP or XNFP etc.

The 'quick' MBTI is just that, quick! and so approximate, open to local conditions, how you feel at the time etc. The more formal tests cover up the basic dichotomies with 100+ questions to try and 'bring out' the biases overall.

The X can be interpreted like a changing line in the IC - and it reflects my ICPlus questions re 'I was T but now not sure' etc

If we focus on the INFP and INTP structures mapped to the IC, so INFP shares space with ENFP and is more 'earth', INTP shares space with ENTP and is more 'thunder'.

You can put one in the context of the other to form a more complex persona (and so a more natural one):

bottom/top:

XNTP/XNFP = earth over thunder = 24
XNFP/XNTP = thunder over earth = 16

With this it is possible to identify the core, base, nature using the 27 XOR process:

27 XOR 24 = 23 (root architecture of XNTP/XNFP)
27 XOR 16 = 21

16 covers a focus on use of foresight, planning (all enthusiastically) etc and has its roots in problem solving.

24 covers a focus on keep coming back to things, a particular path, open to distractions etc - it has its roots in housekeeping, bringing out the 'truth' from all of the accumulated 'noise'.

the 16 persona will focus on what could be, the 24 more a focus on dealing with what 'is'.
 

lightofdarkness

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... but note that the overall focus in Thunder is DII - I differentiate so that I can integrate to then integrate. I pull things apart in general to then group them and then group within that group. It is this 'vibe' that feeds the dynamics of philosophy, architecture (of ideas etc), designer.

For the other side we are dealing with a context of I rather than D, IOW we integrate to then integrate to then integrate, pull things together in general to then do it again to then pull things together in particular.

The core I context ensures a more qualitative perspective than the more quantitative of a D context.

Thus DII is a qualitative perspective (II) operating WITHIN the bounds of a quantitative - and so the 'facts' focus, but 'quality' facts ;-)

The D nature also centers things 'in here' first, the integrating draws in 'out there' first - this reflects the differences in dealing with contexts.

Pure D is blending outwards, pure I is blending inwards, draw-in the context or blend in to it. D will pour out the context, replace the existing with something considered 'better' from a facts perspective. (the 'yin' version of pure D is reflected in the trigram of Wind - IDD - LOTS of differentiation, energy etc, WITHIN the integrating. Here the sense of 'better' is more qualitative - and so the focus on cultivation and on becoming influencial - all properties of wind.
 

yly2pg1

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The X can be interpreted like a changing line in the IC - and it reflects my ICPlus questions re 'I was T but now not sure' etc

so, when our mind fickle, we have changing line(s)?
 

yly2pg1

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Read this question, come up with an answer. This is not a trick question. It is as it reads. No one I know has got it right.

A woman, while at the funeral of her own mother, met this guy whom she did not know. She thought this guy was amazing, so much her dream guy she believed him to be, that she fell in love with him right there, but never asked for his number and could not find him. A few days later she killed her sister.

Question:
What is her motive for killing her sister?
(Give this some thought before you answer)
 

yly2pg1

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Answer:
She was hoping the guy would appear at the funeral again. If you answered this correctly, you think like a psychopath. This was a test by a famous American Psychologist used to test if one has the same mentality as a killer.

Many arrested serial killers took part in the test and answered the question correctly.
 

jerryd

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Yly2, are you in any way suggesting a connection here to the question being answered correctly may label one to have killer instincts? If so then is it not possible any one clever enough to see the answer as pure logic will be labeled as such?
 

lightofdarkness

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;-) you want the 'dark' side of the MBTI? ok

Here are some in general:

XNFP - Amnesic or Delusive hysterics
XNFJ - 'midas touch' - seizure hysterics
XSFJ - Anxious/melancholic depressives
XSTJ - Hypochondriac or Neuroasthemic depressives
INTP - Inhibited Obessives
INTJ - Driven Obsessives
XSFP - masochistic manics
XSTP - Manics

Note with the manic realm, the focus on a 'solution' is rooted in the rational, not ethics, no emotions involved as such - pure focus on self - it is the 'correct' solution free of emotional/moral 'baggage'.

As such, the realm of the manics is also the realm of potential psychosis where one creates one's own little world.

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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Jerryd,

one of the issues with being logical, rational, is the consideration of facts ahead of values and as such anti-social behaviour. The charismatic factor emerges here linked to 'cult' groups who commit suicide at the bequest of their cult leader - or kill others considered 'inferior'. All done very efficiently and/or without emotion/involvement etc etc.

This does not mean that all of type X are 'killers' - they can be 'competitive' types and so focused on themselves that any form of achieving a goal is acceptable in their world view, but the realm of exchange IS competitive 'instinctively' and any challenge is met with the most efficent response with no consideration of consequences of one's actions.

IOW with the 'good' comes the 'bad' ;-)
 

lightofdarkness

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.. I think some would agree that there is a manic element in killing - the focus becomes so intense, so excluding of all else that the individual can lose their sense of 'every day awareness' - can even split, fragement, and 'watch' themselves doing the act.

The association of sex and anger with context replacement allows for the integration of sex/anger in hostile issues and so adds to the mania but also introduces a masochistic element.

If we turn the focus INWARDS then 'self-murder', aka suicide becomes part of the scene - not as a function of depression etc (issues with identity loss) but as a function of 'rational thought' where logic can back us into a corner and be prepared to sacrifice self.
 

jerryd

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Well Chris you explaination sounds reasonable and rational and I accept it on merit. What of those who are so calculating and intellectually capable of being chess masters to come to the same dire conclusions through the back door so to speak? Can they not be just as cunning and dangerous as say the logical and practical?
 

lightofdarkness

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;-)

note that when we talk of eight categories, and so reflecting trigrams, then we implicitly accept their 'mixing' in the form of hexagrams etc. As such, within each category are all of them.

The root context sets a bias, thus the REPLACEMENT focus in the extremes becomes a COEXISTING focus as we move into 'gentler' realms.

The IC shows this where hex 12 reflects the 'manic', the competitive, operating in a context of the more 'cooperative'. Here, the best this can do is neutralise the 'enemy', not replace them.

In Chess this is a common fall-back if you cannot win - you ensure you dont lose ;-)

The realm of the SOCIAL (and so more yin-base) means the 'demand' for coexisting with others. The realm of the INDIVIDUAL (and so more yang-base) allows for, promotes, replacement of current with something considered 'better' - the competitive nature can get a bit carried away (and so for some killing can be fun, something to laugh about etc in that it is all part of refining one's skills - that competitive nature. In Capitalism it is made more 'mental' than physical (to 'kill' the opposition in the market etc) but the overall focus is constant - to replace.

(Bobby Fisher is/was a chess master and so focused on his own world that he was prepared to break sanctions imposed by his country in the 70s on 'dealing with the enemy'. Iceland recently gave him citizenship to avoid the warrent for his arrest and extradition back to the USA to face those charges -- so Fisher went to beat, to 'kill' mentally his opposition without considering the consequences of his actions; his focus was on HIS skills and he could not care less about any political perspectives ;-)).

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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To make a point,

the 'manic' elements are reflected in all of the categories but in ONE form as compared to the EIGHT forms we find when in the 'manic' category.

The two threads we can build out of the binary sequence, one yin, one yang give us:

000, 001, 010, 011 (yin thread)
100, 101, 110, 111 (yang thread)

In the 111 context we have eight hexagrams reflecting increasing focus on mediation and 'intensity' in expression - the realm of the competitive. 110 is one step removed, cooperative in a competitive context and so replication issues rather than erradication issues.

In each of the categories there is one hexagram with a 111 top that reflects the 'manic' operating in that realm. this gives us 15 hexagrams that cover the 111 'nature' in some form.

In 000 the hexagram is 12. Due to the 000 context so replacement is 'neutralised', the 000 'type' cannot go past coexisting as such - they are prepared to survive alongside the 'enemy'. As we move along we have:

realm - 111 related hex - associated realm base emotion
-------------------
000 - 12 - fear (develops devotion to others)
001 - 33 - grief (develops discernment)
010 - 06 - rejection (by others into of others)
011 - 44 - anticipation (develops cultivation)
100 - 25 - surprise (immediate, new paradigms etc)
101 - 13 - acceptance ('my' gang etc ideology promo)
110 - 10 - love (sex, replication, copying, mimicry, mirror, reflect)
111 - 01 - anger (devotion to self, erradication of existing context)

The other 111 hexes in the 111 realm being 11, 26, 05, 09, 34, 14, 43

In the realm of 011 we have STRONG replacement in a context of a valid but 'weak' coexisting. The overall nature here is on cultivation, on becoming influencial and so working WITHIN the existing context but with a strong focus on 'betterment' where, in such a context, betterment is through cultivation, subtle, manic, processes (e.g. 28/44 cover excess issues, going beyond the norm, be it in 28s exaggeration of things, to go the extra distance, or in 44s exaggeration of things through persuation/seduction - all VERY intense, competitive, maximum replacement issues in a conexistence-biased context).

Note that 011 has as its roots in the negative in the form of anticipation of WRONG doing (as covered in 18) that develops to include the anticipation of RIGHT doing (focus on cultivation etc social foundations (48) etc )

This cultivation focus is reflected in 111 through a focus of internal cultivation, a focus on skills for MY sake not the sake of the collective etc) In this form of mapping (two threads):

000, 001, 010, 011 (yin thread)
100, 101, 110, 111 (yang thread)


...so sex/love (110) maps to rejection issues (010) as grief/sadness (001) maps to acceptance issues (101), and fear/devotion (000) maps to surprise/immediate (100) etc issues.

With this focus on 'internal' vs 'external' states, so 011 reflects cultivation of existing context 'outside', 111 reflects cultivation of existing context 'inside'.

We can map these emotions to being 'drives' of the personas mapped to trigrams and these drives can have the potential to work 'in opposition' to our consciousness - or more so we spend a lot of energy 'mediating' the drives with reality where the drive is 'mindless', single context focus, sourced in genetics if strong, in need of mediation.

Chris.
 

Sparhawk

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Nice, Chris! Although I'm still wrapping my mind around the concepts of personality types and their association with trigrams, as presented here, this is great material I can use without a PhD. Really.

Keep it coming.

Luis
 

lightofdarkness

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Luis,

The ability to map persona types to trigrams etc is due to all of our categorisation systems having the same general root - patterns of differentiating/integrating.

These patterns, sourced in our neurology and so unconscious, are universals and as such become specialised when linked to a particular perspective - so the traditional IC is 10th century BC, the MBTI (circa 1950s), is extensions of Jung's material in Analytical Psychology early 1900s etc etc

Behind all of the labels are the same patterns of what IDM identifies as qualities of blending, bonding, bounding, and binding.

IOW when our brains categorise, the novel labels etc reflect an underlying process we ALL use as species-members.

Thus the 'disciple/advocate' qualities of the XNFP persona in the MBTI correlates in general with the qualities of the trigram of Earth and both correlate with the underlying universal of contractive blending aka concentrated integration.

The generic focus for Earth is on dealing with the existing context by coexisting, fitting in. The categories of emotions also map such that Earth also correlates with FEAR and that emotion maps to a focus to dissapear, blend-in with the existing context to protect.

This reactive behaviour then becomes proactive, we USE the existing context to promote self, to gain identity as disciples gain identity from what they follow etc. and so Earth reflects (a) total darkness as a negative and (b) total darkness as a positive, a place to 'hide' to 'nurture' etc etc. and so the focus in Earth on "devotion to another/others"

It is this move from reactive to proactive that allows us to see dual meanings in hexagrams etc and so both positive and negative.

As the YIN reflects the more cooperative, the more 'fitting in' perspective, so the YANG reflects the more competitive, the more 'taking over' perspective.

For the extensions of the MBTI into IC see http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/type.html

Chris.
 

Sparhawk

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Thanks Chris. I find the mapping of personalities to the I Ching very interesting.

Luis
 

yly2pg1

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So, given my profile of XNFP/XNTP (INFP/INTP), what is the dark side of my personalities? What kind of roles the Satan can assign me to?
 

yly2pg1

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XNTP:

I always have a need to repeatedly checking things esp. in work or exam (many years ago). Anyway I do not develop any special rituals. So, is OCD linked to perfectionism or self-consciouness? Any explanation from MBTI or I Ching realms?

XNFP:

delusions - no
hysterics - no

A bit sensitive to perceived danger, i guess.

So, just wonder if the Satan still need me?
howmuch.gif
 

lightofdarkness

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;-) the above is indicative of more of a bias to XNTP (or perhaps you are in denial re XNFP properties! ;-))

This realm of OCD etc covers such issues as the line comments in 24 - we keep coming back, get distracted, come back etc etc which can be associated with OCD dynamics.

The XNTP hexagrams are:

24, 27, 03, 42, 51, 21, 17, 25

there is an 'edge' here to 'sudden' moments of enlightenment, awareness, surprise, shock, etc.

The 'rehersal' dynamic in the head allows for dealing with shocks in that it allows one to adapt BEFORE the 'shock' event happens - thus when it does one's response is 'small' (often taken by others as being 'cold' or 'not caring' etc many have no idea of the degree of considering possible outcomes of situations and from there learn to deal with them and so not be overwhealmed emotionally when they happen - as such there is a natural anxiety element at work that goes with the 'problem solving' nature)

In the realm of Thunder, 27 covers basic architecture issues and to ensure the 'right' food is taken in to fill the building etc. 03 covers issues with 'sprouting', breaking through 'something' etc. 42 reflects augmentation as we shift across levels. 21 is basic problem solving, 17 covers falling into step with someone/something as a 'belief'. 25 covers standing up to say what you wish to say without fear or conscideration of consequences (also gets into interrupting conversations to 'assert' one's perfectionist point!)

there is also a trait of not doing things at all since they cannot be done 'perfectly', or 'immediately' - also gets into dislikes of left overs, cold food etc! ;-) - thus there is a more of a self-consciousness focus explicitly, perfectionism is more 'implicit'.

As we move to towards pure yang, so self-consciousness gives way to over-confidence and perfectionism becomes explicit in the focus on being competitive to refine skills.

the 'pure' XNTP type is reflected in the hexagram of 51.

http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/x001001.html

Note that XNTP an XNFP are variations on a theme - their only difference (be it a big one) is the bottom line.

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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BTW note hexagram 21 - driven obsessive in a context of inhibited obsessive described as 'chewing things over' - the dynamic in the 'problem solving' takes over things and we get compulsive in the chewing - about anything! - cant leave it alone even when 'done' - must keep picking etc. ;-)

All of these hexagrams can be easily exaggerated 'negatively' to bring out the OCD elements and the overall obsessiveness (even in 17 with a focus on 'following' - in love this gets into issues of being infatuated, over-whelmed etc and so 'obsessed')

In the realm of fire, and so driven obessives, there is a drive when compared to thunder where thunder can be sudden etc but 'static', besotted, etc etc - in fire there is BOUNDING and so the boundary move outwards, driven to convert difference to sameness etc. Thunder is more structural, fire more sequencial. Both are analytical, thunder more ingenius, fire better preparation - both put map before territory. Thunder is more into 'wizardry', Fire more into 'the map is the thing' - and so its focus on ideology issues etc (acceptance, 'my gang').

Fire focuses on 'to change', lake 'to please', heaven 'to outdo'.

Go the other way and wind is into confronting/reporting lawbreakers, water into provision of necessities of life and protect from the pitfalls of life.

umm... NFs are catalysts, NTs visionaries.
SJs are stabilisers, SP are troubleshooters.

SJs -
security through protection (XSFJ) (water)
security through inspection (XSTJ) (wind)

SPs
Sensation through play (XSFP) (lake)
Sensation through competition (XSTP) (heaven)
"[He] battles in the sign of the creative"

etc
etc
etc!

;-)
 

yly2pg1

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Symptoms of OCD? Maybe, that is why I happen to buy a book everything fall at its place? when i come across it. That was few years back. The author points out the myth of perfectionism? But I almost forget about this term until you mention this today!

Let check with my frequent I Ching No in work and life to see if I really fall into that:

2.3, 5, 24.3, 27.3, 41, 42, 17.3, 25.5, 59.4, 60.3, 62.4


BTW, how you define "...delusional hysterics to perceived danger, rather than an actual danger..." ? Sound very serious!
 
P

prynne

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that is exactly ocd, except the books keep falling. right on Wiley.
 

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