Memorizing Hexigram 17. Sui / Following

[Sparhawk]

17.3

Six in the third place means:
If one clings to the strong man,
One loses the little boy.

I've always wondered if Wilhelm purposely introduced a bad dichotomy there. If there was any room for the opposite to apply in any good way or if it is a round, exclusionary statement. If by clinging to the "little boy", one loses the "strong man" too. See, the Wilhelm translation for this line plays with our basic filial emotions and would make your feel like a bastard by having to chose between the two of them. Other translations are more objective about it and even positive about the act of losing the "small and meaningless"... Wilhelm, well..., he makes me feel like I'm in the water, my family is drowning and I have to choose between saving my wife or saving one of my children.

Huang, for example, translates this line as:

"Involved with great person,
Loses little fellow.
Following, one gets what one seeks.
Favorable to abide in being steadfast and upright."


L

 

[bruce_g]

The shift from line 2 to 3 is a changing of priorities. Clinging to the child has a time and place, but so does maturing. Line 2 isn’t bad and line 3 isn’t better, but line 3 does signify a more earnest approach to matters in question.

 

[Sparhawk]

The shift from line 2 to 3 is a changing of priorities. Clinging to the child has a time and place, but so does maturing. Line 2 isn’t bad and line 3 isn’t better, but line 3 does signify a more earnest approach to matters in question.

Correct, the way we are going with the memorizing, this in one more step in the ladder up the hexagram and one can see the logic behind the evolution of events. We are not consulting the Yi here, only discussing it. On the other hand, if you are consulting the Yi and obtain a 17.3 and you only have Wilhelm to pat your shoulder...

L

 

[bruce_g]

Correct, the way we are going with the memorizing, this in one more step in the ladder up the hexagram and one can see the logic behind the evolution of events. We are not consulting the Yi here, only discussing it. On the other hand, if you are consulting the Yi and obtain a 17.3 and you only have Wilhelm to pat your shoulder...
L

...misleading. Boy howdy. If Wilhelm is all you have or use, one minute you're a great man (or woman) and the next, a real loser. One minute an enlightened sage, and the next, a foolish twit. As much as I love Wilhelm, these limiting concepts must be outgrown – as in line 3.

 

[rosada]

As we focus on these lines one day at a time I watch for the energy pattern to emerge in my daily life. By combining what the I Ching discribes with what I actually experience, I'm getting a much clearer understanding than I would just reading the book.

Right now our community is caught up in the desparate search for two hikers lost on top of Mt. Hood which I see every day from my front porch. It's a heart wrenching scenario and no one believes the men are still alive. The conversations now talk about was it worth the expense to even try to find them and also what was the lesson? Inevitably talk turns to the folly of our country going into the vast mountains of Afganistan to hunt for Bin Lauden when we can't even find one of our own on a mountain in the frount yard. It forces us to confront our powerlessness in this material world and drives us to look beneath the service appearance of things (to the bottom of the Lake?). Clinging to "the little boy" fantasy that Daddy can protect us is finally scarrier than the idea of seeing reality, becoming "the strong man" and learning how the game is really played.

 

[martin]

17.3 Mars in Gemini (or house 3), Venus in Sagittarius (9)

In this position Mars is more rational and objective (more 'mature'?)
This might not be true for Venus in Sagittarius though.

In both signs/houses energy tends to scatter and staying on course is not their strong point, a zig zag course is more probable.
So the advice to 'persevere' or to be 'steadfast' makes sense.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 17.3

Line 3
"A belief acts as a form of guide. To give an old one up is not easy and one occasionally slips back if feeling insecure. Persevere with the new. The old is a warm memory and that's all."

with/from following comes unmasking (49 - reveal the hidden, unmask as compared to 04 masking, socialising. = the mask can fit too tightly and be difficult to remove, the metaphor is taken literally and its possible removal elicits insecurity re identity)

The line position 3 is 'ruled' by hexagram 15 and ITS sense of covering up, levelling out, evening out, so there is a clash of perspectives, to cover vs reveal/uncover all in a context of a following/belief etc (15 includes keeping words close to facts and so that includes being wary of the words being the facts when they are in fact metaphors - the sense here is the close fit of metaphor to what is represented)

From a wave perspective we are summing qualities of 24, 15, 16, 08 as compared to 17.2 with its focus on 24, 07, 16, 08.

From a trigram perspective, the bottom trigram moves from thunder to fire and so a movement to issues of acceptance and guidance - being in/out of the 'gang'.

The 17-49 focus is reflected in the 'mud' or infrastructure representations of 12-33

Workinh in the mountain octet of hexagrams, 33 is the exaggerating of 15 where we leave a little opening in covering to entice but in a competitive way. This gives us the sense of being enticed by something and so issues of mask removal/transference is present in this overall 17-49 'change'.

 

[Sparhawk]

I've got tickled thinking about casting a 17.2.3>43. Here is the result: Following (not), a 17 story...

I know, I know, I should seek professional help...

L

 

[rosada]

Interesting, sparhawk, how 17.1.2.3 leads to 28, Collapse - like going out in public, first talking to this person, then to that leads to a complete melt down, whereas as you've noted with 17.2.3 leading to 43, Breakthrough, if one skips 17.1 that is, if one doesn't try to a talk to everyone, consider every opinion, then perhaps just a small survey will lead to a Breakthrough (Even if the Breakthrough is only the realization nobody knows anything for sure anyway...)

 

[mudpie]

Luis, I am not a latina unfortunately, but even so I'd rub your bald head anyday.
But wait...your wife is already rubbing your shoulders. Be careful her hands don't go around your neck

Sean Connery? ahhhh, NOW there's a 17.3 . The epitome of separating the men from the boys

 

[lightofreason]

Interesting, sparhawk, how 17.1.2.3 leads to 28, Collapse - like going out in public, first talking to this person, then to that leads to a complete melt down, whereas as you've noted with 17.2.3 leading to 43, Breakthrough, if one skips 17.1 that is, if one doesn't try to a talk to everyone, consider every opinion, then perhaps just a small survey will lead to a Breakthrough (Even if the Breakthrough is only the realization nobody knows anything for sure anyway...)

From an XOR perspective, and so extracting the spectrum of 17, changing lines 2 and 3 reflects XORing 17 with 46 to give us 43. 43 here reflects how the characteristics of 46 are expressed by 17. Thus the focus on getting more entangled within the concept of following is described by analogy to 43 and its focus on spreading the word, seeding.

For 17.1,2,3 this reflects XORing 17 with 11 and deriving 28. 28 covers excess in general and going beyond the norm in particular, we go the extra distance which is the way 17 expressing 11-ness. Thus in following we mediate harmonising/balancing in an extreme form, we go the extra distance.

Chris.

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis, I am not a latina unfortunately, but even so I'd rub your bald head anyday.
But wait...your wife is already rubbing your shoulders. Be careful her hands don't go around your neck

Hey, don't apologize; as long as you are of the right sex I don't discriminate...

Oops, I can feel long fingernails digging deep into my throat...

L

 

[Sparhawk]

Interesting, sparhawk, how 17.1.2.3 leads to 28, Collapse - like going out in public, first talking to this person, then to that leads to a complete melt down, whereas as you've noted with 17.2.3 leading to 43, Breakthrough, if one skips 17.1 that is, if one doesn't try to a talk to everyone, consider every opinion, then perhaps just a small survey will lead to a Breakthrough (Even if the Breakthrough is only the realization nobody knows anything for sure anyway...)

Yes, I like 43 as a conclusion for 17,2,3. 43 takes no prisoners. A no nonsense, move on kind of guy.

L

 

[Sparhawk]

I just realized that we are at 75 messages on this hexagram and we haven't even finished with line 3... Wow!

L

 

[rosada]

Thinking about the astrological tie ins with the lines..

I'm seeing 17.1 as a person walking down 5th Avenue or some very cosmopolitan city. Like Mars in Aries, a feeling of being goal oriented and although all the various freaky dramas of city life are being played out all around one, consciousness is so focused there is no consideration of right or wrong, do or don't do. Like a stranger in a strange country not noticing the locals yet. Not yet realizing the different possibilities, the different ways of doing things, the different choices. But Venus in Libra like, this egocentricity is accepted by the surrounding populace without disturbance. Focused on one's own perspective - no awareness of choices

17.2 Like Mars in Taurus, once the energy is launched it will follow the trijectory without diviation. Venus in Scorpio, no alternatives. A newcomer doesn't know the subilties. A young boy must follow his elders. He has no choices.

17.3 The reverse of the previous line. Mars in Gemini, Venus in Sagittarius. Awareness of infinite possibilities, infinite choices. Opportunity to chose again.

 

[rosada]

Hi Luis -
Maybe fitting we'd notice all the comments on a 17.3 day. All the awareness of different possible ways to go.

 

[martin]

I like what you said about choices, Rosada. The cardinal, fixed and mutable signs typically behave differently in this respect.

Insofar the theory that links lines to signs/houses holds (*) we would expect to find cardinal behavior in lines 1 and 4, fixed behavior in 2 and 5, and so on. Of course it also depends on the planets (trigrams).

(*) It seems to do quite well till now, but I'm aware that 'fitting games' can be misleading.
It is very easy to 'see' more fit than there actually is. This is also true for the pairing of trigrams and planets.
Selective perception ..

 

[hollis]

Sean Connery? ahhhh, NOW there's a 17.3 . The epitome of separating the men from the boys

LOL!

 

[hollis]

way to go!

I just realized that we are at 75 messages on this hexagram and we haven't even finished with line 3... Wow!

L

If this pace keeps, we won't reach 18 till after the solar new year!

 

[rosada]

17.4

Nine in the fourth place means:
Following creates success.
Perseverance brings misfortune.
To go one's way with sincerity brings clarity.
How can there be blame in this?

It often happens, when a man exerts a certain amount of influence, he obtains a following by condescension toward inferiors. But the people who attach themselves to him are not honest in their intentions. They seek personal advantage and try to make themselves indispensable through flattery and subservience. If one becomes accustomed to such satellites and cannot do without them, it brings misfortune. Only when a man is completely free from his ego, and intent, by conviction, upon what is right and essential, does he acquire the clarity that enables him to see through such people, and become free of blame.

"Following creates success": this bodes misfortune.
"To go one's way with sincerity": this brings clearsighted deeds.
This line is the minister who follows the strong line that is the ruler of the hexagram - the nine in the fifth place. In this way he wins the success of having people follow him - a success he cannot prevent, because he is not correct (a strong line in a weak place). Thereby he draws down misfortune upon himself. The trigram Chen means a great way. This line is over Chen, that is, on the way. The nuclear trigram Ken means brightness and light.
-Wilhelm

The hunt is over
You have gained everything you need, It would be wise to take a pause. to continue is greedy and would generate envy.
-Sorrell

The situation is very favorable for a person of influence and position, able to recognize a person of ability, who is taken into confidence without due discrimination.
-Knight

You have advanced to a strong position of influence but have remained modest, cooperative, and helpful to your subordinates. Maintaining your modest attitude while using your influence to help a subordinate seves you well, and no blame will attach to your efforts.
-Wu Wei

"And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it..(Isaiah 30:21). Take command of your mind. Adhere to that which you know to be true. Preseve your equanimity and rest with absolute assurance that the Infinite Presence is moving on your behalf. Your motivation must be for the benefit of all. Listen to what the Psalmist said and obey it: THEY SPEAK VANITY EVERYONE WITH HIS NEIGHBOR: WITH FLATTERING LIPS AND WITH A DOUBLE HEART DO THEY SPEAK(Psalms 12:2). Listen to the inner voice of the Divine, which always speaks in peace, in love and in harmony.
-Murphy

 

[frank_r]

17 with changing line 4.
The fourth line is past the middle, the start of the regions outside somebody.
lake changing in water, the water from the lake is starting to flow.
It's also changing in 3 so a new begin.
thunder from the lower trigram and water from the top both stand in the east in the Wen and Fu shi sequence also a new begin.

So everthing has to do with the flow of something new, is it the new beginning of the light? The start of a bright new light. A new year with new possibilities, with new difficulties in the beginning.
Lets follow the new light and look were it will lead us. Maybe we can help each other when somebody is losing this light for a while.

 

[lightofreason]

IC+ 17.4

Line 4
"An influencial person, due to his position, can attract followers whose prime intention is self-interest. If surrounded by these people and their flattery, the individual will loose sight of his path (due to feeling secure) and eventually suffer. A false sense of security. See through this to survive."

 

[mudpie]

17.4 a good line for the winter solstice and a good line for the Christmas story. When the Wise Men followed the star, KIng Herod attached himself to them for his own selfish, disguised purposes. They were wise enough to disengage themselves from him and to go on to follow the star. Don't let petty people with their own designs turn your head and flatter you with their attention. Keep your eye on on the real prize.

 

[martin]

17.4 Mars in Cancer (house 4), Venus in Capricorn (10)

I don't see much of Venus in Capricorn (except for the 'sincerity' perhaps) in what the IC says about this line.
Venus in the tenth house is recognizable, though, but the IC seems to focus mainly on the pitfalls of that position:
Popularity (perhaps a certain stardom) and getting sidetracked by it. Too much glamour? Hollywood?
Attracting the wrong people, giving in too much to them in an effort to be or remain popular. Or just because one is too 'nice'.
And possibly the temptation to outshine - outglitter? - the 'ruler' (line 5), forgetting ones place in the hierarchy.

But Mars counteracts all this (or can do so). Mars doesn't care about popularity, appearances, glamour or niceties. Certainly not in Cancer or house 4 where its energy goes inward.

 

[rosada]

FOLLOWING CREATES SUCCESS:
As I was going to the grocery store, my friend asked if I could pick up something for them. I said I would and he unthinkingly answered, "Thank you, Sweetheart."
PERSEVERANCE BRINGS MISFORTUNE:
His wife shot him a look. Ha!
TO GO ONE'S WAY WITH SINCERITY BRINGS CLARITY.
I just kept walking.
HOW COULD THERE BE BLAME IN THIS?
End of story.

 

[dobro p]

Presumably 17.4 has a connection with Hex 3, but I don't see it. Does anybody?

17.4 talks about following something and catching it and how that's not a great approach right now, and how it's better to do things for the sake of truth and light. But what's that got to do with the beginnings imaged in Hex 3?

 

[rosada]

Okay, I'll give it a shot...I'm seeing 17 as realizing we can create our experiences by what we choose to give our attention to. At first (17.1) we don't realize we have choices, and so we must first go out and mingle with the world to realize we aren't all alike, see what others have chosen and see what our choices are. Then (17.2) we start to realize we have choices, but our alternatives are pretty basic, like, "fool around and die or get serious and survive", so we still don't have a feeling of options and of self creation. But the awareness of choices grows (17.3) until one realizes one's choices are limitless and success virtually guaranteed if one simply continues to choose. Acting on this insight, chosing and then chosing again and then chosing yet again, can cause disturbance among those who wrongfully assumed we would choose once then settle down. We now know we will never stop making fresh choices. Being alive means freedom to choose, and what could be the blame in this? Yet when we are first starting to act from this awareness, it can be very confusing (hex3) especially to those who thought we were going to settle down, be predictable, be where they could always find us. Nope! Not us! We are dedicated to Following Bliss!

 

[lightofreason]

Presumably 17.4 has a connection with Hex 3, but I don't see it. Does anybody?

17.4 talks about following something and catching it and how that's not a great approach right now, and how it's better to do things for the sake of truth and light. But what's that got to do with the beginnings imaged in Hex 3?

attraction of insincere followers at the beginning (and so initial difficulties in development - the relationships reflect a 'new' or 'budding' development but are founded on insincerty).

Line position 4 is 'ruled' by hexagram 16 and so covers foresight and associated enthusiasm for things to come. (I had this orginally as 8 on line 5.. now edited)

As with hex 3 overall, initial difficulties associated with 'sprouting' etc will be overcome. The following nature of 17 + the foresight/enthusiasm of 16 combined with the difficulties of 03 reflect qualities mapped into the line comment I gave.

 

[Trojina]

I never quite got the idea that the followers were insincere or out for their own advantage. In my experience I repeatedly have had this line when I'm just loving someones good regard so much (well don't we have to make the most of it, it won't happen that often, lol) I'm in danger of losing track of what I set out to do and instead begin to have an eye on their approval rather than the goal. This approval seeking is misleading and distracting so I presume this line counsels to bop your ego on the head and get back to the real work. But that doesn't mean those who praised you were 'unworthy' or 'insincere' just that you were in danger of getting addicted to their praise. I think the line is saying 'you are in danger of insincerity if you fall prey to flattery of others and become dependant on it'. I don't think it is saying those who praise you are insincere IMO. Maybe thats a Wilhelm addition, the bit about insincere followers.

 

[lightofreason]

I never quite got the idea that the followers were insincere or out for their own advantage. ... I don't think it is saying those who praise you are insincere IMO. Maybe thats a Wilhelm addition, the bit about insincere followers.

ok - lets look at it from a more detailed position, using the IC to describe itself in general... so these will be vague but enough to refine our interpretation of 17.4 overall.

The infrastructure or the 'mud' from which 17 comes from is described by analogy to hexagram 12 - so there is a general vibe built-in as the infrastructure of 17 of holding to some belief and a preparedness to rigidly defend such.

If 17 is considered for some context to be representative of an inbalanced state then the restoration of balance is described by analogy to 62. (63-ness of 17, the 'correct' steps through it)

For 17.4, it leads into 03 or is interpretable as a condition reflected in qualities of 03 operating in a context of 17. (as a dodecagram it could be represented as 100110-100010)

The 'mud' for 03 is described by 20 where there is a sense of being an example, setting an example, as the first 'sprout' of the season where one can set off others (and so associated difficulties of such) - so we can see the 'influencial person' focus again emphasised.

Thus the mud for 17.4 overall is described by analogy to 12-20 (20 in a context of 12 - admiration for someone or being an example for others etc operating in a focus on issues of neutralising attacks of others on the faith and that can be seen as covering issues of insincerity from 'without').

If 03 is considered to be a marker of instability then its balance is restored by exposure to the characterstics of 15 (covering the notion of in times of difficulty keep words close to facts, avoid highs/lows etc) so the restoration of balance for 17.4 is overall described by 62-15 (15 operating in a context of 62)

62 covers exaggerations of traditions etc as part of an exercise in keeping a collective together - it covers issues of group loyalty (as compared to the more particular loyalty focus of 62s pair member, 56) and that loyalty theme does seem to be an issue covered in the line comment - any insincerity reflects issues of loyalty. IF that is the case then the 15 operating in that context indicates some form of levelling out such issues - keeping words close to facts maintains a level of loyalty overall (for the collective) and so calms things down a bit.

If we go into more details:

Given that 17.4 covers 17-03, so we can try and identify what it 'looks' like from the outside and this is described by analogy to 33-53 (maturing (53) in a context of competitive enticement (33)). On the INSIDE we well see 19-54 (immaturity in a context of approaching the high, defering to the low)

The overall situation gets its nourishment from 34-11 - mediating (issues of harmonising/balancing) (11) in a context of invigoration (34).

Note that the presence of 33 as part of the external 'look' gives us an inkling of detecting trickery present but it just looks that way - internally we see more issues of immaturity and dealings of power in approaching the high/defering to the low.

we can add a further 60+ relationships to flesh this out if need be.

Chris.