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Memorizing the I Ching 28. Ta Kuo / Preponderance of the Great

dobro p

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I think the images speak plainly, in biological terms. An older man who marries a young woman can still produce children. An older woman who marries a young man can not - but that doesn't mean they can't enjoy their relationship.

Child bearing was a high purpose. Sex was for fun and release. Both can be overwhelming experiences, and both can keep life alive, but only one continues to live on.
Bingo. Exactamente. One situation can bear fruit, the other can't. Precisely.

Thanks. That answered my question.
 

charly

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... a pole extending accross a canyon, line one where the pole touches one side of the ravine, line six being the point where the pole reaches the opposite bank... a weak young girl... a swinging rope bridge.
Rosada:

I can see the bridge!

The supports are flexible rope, then YIN outside, the wooden beams are in the middle, of course YANG.

Depicts DA GUO as a dangerous but effective conection between the two sides.

Might DA GUO be a rope scale between, say, earth and sky?

Because I see a three layered structure in H.28 by its parallelisms in contents and sintax:

1) Heaven layer:
Line 1, even a maypole begins as a skiny thach, reverence first.
Line 2, Old Master = Tian(天,tian) , takes all the young girls he needs, ever rebirths after night.

2) Mankind layer:
Lines 3-4, ever omen-dependent, ever looking if up (上,shang) or down(下,xià), ever divinating (占卜,zhangui) if lucky (吉,ji) or unlucky (凶,xiong).

3) Earth layer:
Line 5, Old Lady = Earth(地,di), takes all the young boys she needs, ever fecond.
Line 6, the eternal stream (川,chuan, H.2 in MWD), for extreme crossings, wet the head.

Adding your bridge, we have the mark of the shaman, the character for king (王,wang) the link between earth, mankind and heaven.

As you can see earth is up and heaven is down, what is the correct order for I Ching, women up.

Yours,

Charly:bows:
 

ewald

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旡 不 利

We are *so* not on the same page with this one. I take wu2 bu4 li4 to mean 'without lack of benefit' - in other words, it's completely beneficial in each and every aspect. I think you should canvas group opinion here on this one.
旡 means: without, lack
不 means: not, dis-, un-, -less
利 means: benefit, advantage, beneficial

旡 is the opposite of 有 which means there is.
So 旡 is 不有: there is no.

旡 can only mean not, no if it means without.

旡 does not mean nothing. A lack is not the same as nothing. Nothing is "not anything," or "without anything," and there is no character for "anything" here.
不 does not mean lack, as that is what 旡 means.
 

charly

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... I think saying that the poplar imagery is separate from the marriage imagery is completely wrong,...
...is the poplar the man or the woman?
Getojack:

I think like you that to separate it is not good, but people who consults the I Ching can do it, if it make sense for him. The same about sex.

Pehaps this quote could help us somethig:

Populus lasiocarpa Chinese necklace poplar ...
Not a tree that you are going to pass without noticing.
It is exceptional amongst poplars in having male and female flowers on the same tree...
Alistair Scott
http://www.grangeassociation.org/product/100.htm
If a young woman gets 28.5, could be the girl, but not the tree.
If an old woman gets 28.5, what about?
If a man gets 28.5, what to do?

It is preferrable for people to have some freedom for interpreting the I Ching.
Who's who shall have no answer.;)

Yours,


Charly
 

ewald

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I still like "Nothing isn't beneficial." Has the same meaning... it's completely beneficial in each and every aspect.
However, 旡 不 利 is there in lines where there may be some doubt about the situation really being beneficial. (It is in 2.2 - 3.4 - 14.6 - 15.4 - 15.5 - 19.2 - 23.5 - 28.2 - 33.6 - 35.5 - 40.6 - 50.6 - 57.5.)

Isn't it incongruous that such situations would be "completely beneficial in each and every aspect?"
 

charly

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旡 means: without, lack
不 means: not, dis-, un-, -less
利 means: benefit, advantage, beneficial
...旡 does not mean nothing...
Ewald:

If «旡不利» were so superlatively good in 28.2 why not to say 吉(ji) before?

Some alternatives:

1) a moderate «not unprofitable», «no disadvantageous»
2) an advice «not fail to take profit», «don't let go the opportunity»
3) ...

Am I wrong?

Yours,

Charly
 

ewald

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Ewald:

If «旡不利» were so superlatively good in 28.2 why not to say 吉(ji) before?
Indeed.
Some alternatives:

1) a moderate «not unprofitable», «no disadvantageous»
2) an advice «not fail to take profit», «don't let go the opportunity»
3) ...
I like 1.
I have "Without disadvantage" in my translation, which ties in with my view that all the lines this phrase is in have some doubt about the situation being beneficial, or concern about things going wrong.

I think "not unprofitable" is an interesting alternative. However, I like to translate 旡 as "without."
 

getojack

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I think the images speak plainly, in biological terms. An older man who marries a young woman can still produce children.
Not necessarily. There are other factors involved in childbearing than just age, aren't there? I don't think the lines have anything at all to do with whether the couple can produce children or not.
 

getojack

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However, 旡 不 利 is there in lines where there may be some doubt about the situation really being beneficial. (It is in 2.2 - 3.4 - 14.6 - 15.4 - 15.5 - 19.2 - 23.5 - 28.2 - 33.6 - 35.5 - 40.6 - 50.6 - 57.5.)

Isn't it incongruous that such situations would be "completely beneficial in each and every aspect?"
Yes! This was exactly my point about 28.2... that it's not completely beneficial, but that there is some doubt about whether it's entirely good or not. Thank you.

Brad has "Nothing cannot be turned to advantage." Why does he translate wu as nothing, then? Hey Brad, where r ya?
 

getojack

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It is preferrable for people to have some freedom for interpreting the I Ching.
Who's who shall have no answer.;)
Yes, I think the Yijing is being deliberately vague here as to who's who, hence the poplar imagery.
 

getojack

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Wilhelm has this to say...

"A withered poplar puts out flowers." How could this last long?

"An older woman takes a husband." It is never the less a disgrace.
-Wilhelm
This is merely Wilhelm's interpretation that the withered poplar putting out flowers is the older woman. I can see just as easily that it's the husband giving flowers to the older woman, can't you?
 

charly

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... if gender is needed in interpretation, perhaps it can be discerned by the line's position in the hexagram.
Dear Luis:

For rebirthing both genders are needed.
I Ching must have advices for both, as Wilhelm says:

1) for Male Winds, down: Gentle Penetration
2) for Female Marshes, up: Joy

Two poets, the same matter:
«...love’s best habit is in seeming trust, / And age in love loves not to have years told.»
Shakespeare

«...mi corazón espera, / también hacia la luz y hacia la vida / otro milagro de la primavera.»
Machado
Un abrazo,

Charly
 

charly

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Not necessarily. There are other factors involved in childbearing than just age, aren't there? I don't think the lines have anything at all to do with whether the couple can produce children or not.
Getojack:

You'r quite right. Children come for his own. Or God sends him.

A 30 years old woman was very old for married in Zhou times, but able for having children.

In Chinese folklore inmortal women (very old) can be married with young students making him happy and/or vampirizing him, can give him children sometimes.

A husband married whit an old wife (barren or not) can get children with another secondary wife, it's well thought.

No speak of women married with husbands unable for giving her children, no matter the younger the wife, the mariage had no effect, or she could get the babies from another man. Be sons or not is matter of ancestors worship.

I Ching speaks of things that were very old or very hidden yet in Zhou times, forgotten things. If I Ching were to speak about thigs of common sense or current customs it should use a plain language.

Things are not what they seem...

Charly:bows:
 
B

bruce_g

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Not necessarily. There are other factors involved in childbearing than just age, aren't there? I don't think the lines have anything at all to do with whether the couple can produce children or not.
Why else would a man and woman marry in ancient China but to bear children, hopefully males, to carry on the family name? Romantic love?

I believe it's this first priority of child bearing which metaphorically separates the nature of a marriage between lines 2 and 5. If you consider the importance to honor ones family, line 5 could or even would have been considered dishonorable, or at least a waste of perfectly good ancestral seed.

Of course there could be other uses for a woman, even if she was beyond child bearing years. She could care for the husband's old mother, for example.
 
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rosada

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28.1 Yin line. Yin is Unconscious, Unknown. When entering situations where one is uncertain, where conditions are new to one and the possible reprocussions unknown, it is prudent to be exceedingly cautious. So one approaches a new situation with great deferance, like a man asking out an unknown girl on a first date.

28.2 Yang line. Yang is conscious, the Known. When entering unknown situations, it is best to stick with what you know. Like a man asking out the girl on the first date would be careful to invite her to a place he was already sure of, then the only unknown is the girl, so any surprises that manefest will not too much of a surprise, but the natural result of all the known factors. In terms of consciousness we can say the conscious mind asks a question and the unconscious manefests an answer in a clear orderly fasion. If a man impregnates a girl he knows to have been a virgin, the child will be his, no confusion. But what if the man, the consciousness refuses to give awareness to other factors the unconscious is manefesting? What if there is a heretofore unrecognized redhead gene that now pops up? As Consciousness taps the Unconscious things start happening beyond consciousness's ability to comprehend or control thus...

28.3 Again a Yang line, Conscious action. A second yang line following a yang line is inappropriate, is excessive. It is as if the male thinks because he could impregnate a female now thinks he knows everything and refuses to relinquish the yang attribute of being all knowing, to become yin, receptive to what more his unconscious has to show him. Because consciousness obsinately refuses to give attention to the possibility of the power of the unconcious, problems of unknown origin arise.
In real life this is a really horrible line to receive as it indicates a time when one feels overwhelmed with mounting pressures and one has no idea where the problems came from or how to handle them all, and yet the feeling is that one must be The Man, be responcible or be to blame.

28.4 Another Yang line, but now in a much better position, suggests wisdom coming from advisers. It's as if the unconcious which could not comunicate in line 3 now appears in outer world garb. The truth will out. Thus problems one originally found overwhelming seem to be slowly finding their own solutions. This sence of problems being solved creates a tremendeous sence of joyousness and relief manefesting in...

28.5 A Yang line in this power position. Great joy from experiencing in 28.4 that all problems can be solved - is this what all the "nothing that does not benefit" has been about? When all problems are seen to be solvable, then virtually, there are no problems. Yet there are still obligations to be fulfilled and to ignor them thinking "well, the problem can be solved so now that I know what to do I'll relax, figuring eventually I will do it..." would be unproductive, even shameful.

28.6 A Yin line. The Unconscious carries on, even if the Conscious mind is no longer connected to the situation. A real life example might be someone consciously pledging at 28.5, "I will love you forever." Everyone cheers and the person has the fun of the moment and the anticipation of eternal love with never having to do another thing to keep it fresh. But when a person stops putting conscious attention on this pledge, what happens? The love grows stale, yet the couple stays married, unable to enjoy their union but somehow unable to make change..
 
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rosada

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Six at the top means:

One must go through the water.

It goes over one's head.

Misfortune. No blame.

Here is a situation in which the unusual has reached a climax. One is courageous and wishes to accomplish one's task, no matter what happens. This leads to danger. The water rises over one's head. This is the misfortune. BUT ONE INCURS NO BLAME FOR GIVING UP ONE'S LIFE THAT THE GOOD AND THE RIGHT MAY PREVAIL. There are things that are more important than life.

One should not join blame to the misfortune of going through the water.

The upper trigram Tui is a lake, hence the water. The nuclear trigram is Ch'ien, the head. The upper trigram ends with the nine in the fifth place; thus the the six at the top shows water reaching above the head. However, one ought not to join blame to the misfortune, because it is due to the time and the intention is good. This oracle, "Misfortune, No blame," is among the noblest thoughts possible about the over coming of fate.
 

charly

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... I have "Without disadvantage" in my translation, which ties in with my view that all the lines this phrase is in have some doubt about the situation being beneficial, or concern about things going wrong...
Ewald:
I think like you. No so good, no so bad.

Didn't Wilhelm/Baynes translation have some bias?

1) Where chinese text says «old man», «old woman», W/B says «older man», «older woman»(I see you translate «older» too).

2) Where chinese text says a «shi» husband, generally translated as «young husband» W/B says only «husband». You gives «official», Blofeld «vigorous» husband!

That man were older than wife was the general custom. Thus, almost all marriges shoud have «Everything furthers»?

In woman case, B/W takes for granted that the woman is a widow («An older woman may marry once more»), but then, could be a young widow? Why «shi» is ommited?

I think children comes fron later confucian commentaries, not from Zhouyi.

I misunderstand W/B?

Thanks in advance,

Charly
 
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bradford

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This is merely Wilhelm's interpretation that the withered poplar putting out flowers is the older woman. I can see just as easily that it's the husband giving flowers to the older woman, can't you?
No, that's incorrect. Sheng is to produce something alive or to live. W/B is correct.
 

rosada

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Reviewing the hexagram and noting how each line manefests some form of excess:

28.1 Excess at the beginning translates to taking special care.

28.2 Excess at...what? I've forgotten what stage the second line represents?

28.3 Excess at transition and the resultant catastrophe whe one is trying to co-ordinate too many things at this tricky moment?

28.4 Excess of advisers? But this is not a bad thing I guess. Maybe, "Many hands make light work."

28.5 Excess of Rulers, Husbands? This really fits. My neighbor has had quite a parade of fellows come by eager to be of assistance.

28.6 Excess at the End. Caring too much? Getting more involved than one intended? Unable to move on? While Wilhelm says this line indicates being faithful, keeping one's word no matter what happens, and that this is a good thing, Sorrell interprets it, "Getting in over ones head."

Anyway, can anyone suggest what line 2 should be in this? Excess of...?

Interesting to note that the really difficult lines in this hexagram are actually the ones that you would think would be positive because of their position and the ones that are good are actually what you might consider out of place. Thus, the yin in the first place is in a yang position, but this is not a problem because this hexagram is all about excess and so yin in a yang position does not create excess. Likewise a yang line in position 3, a yang position, would seem to be correct, but in this hexagram it is excessive and therefore unfortunate.
 
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rosada

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Another (excessive?) thought about 28.6. Yesterday was my birthday. Neither of my elderly parents called. I know they just forgot, but still it was weird. I shall think of 28.6 now as meaning excessive silence, or, The silence was deafening! Actually in away it was a great blessing in disquise. I know in the furture I will have birthdays when they are no longer here to call me. Getting to experience the silence now while they are still alive is a wonderful reminder to cherish them while I can.
 

sparhawk

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Well, HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY!!!



L
 

rosada

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Well thank you! Wow, what an unexpected and delightful treat! I shall think of this as an example of 28.4, advisors stepping in to shore up the old sagging ridgepole who is now 28.5 like grinning ear to ear! :)
 
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Trojina

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Happy belated birthday greetings Rosada :hug: btw are you sure your phone is okay ?
 

sparhawk

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Well thank you! Wow, what an unexpected and delightful treat! I shall think of this as an example of 28.4, advisors stepping in to shore up the old sagging ridgepole who is now 28.5 like grinning ear to ear! :)
LOL! BTW, by its very virtual nature, this is a "diet" cake, so, eat it all if you wish... :rofl:

L
 

frank_r

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Rosada, I hope you had a nice day with your family at home! but from me also congratulations with your birthday.

All the best Frank
 

Tohpol

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Well thank you! Wow, what an unexpected and delightful treat! I shall think of this as an example of 28.4, advisors stepping in to shore up the old sagging ridgepole who is now 28.5 like grinning ear to ear! :)
Here's to sagging ridgepoles Rosada :D - and hope you had a nice birthday despite the waning of parents' attention.

Topal
 

RindaR

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Happity (belated) Birdie to ewe
Hippity Birdie to ewe
Hoppity birdie to ewe-oo
Happity Birdie to ewe!

and may you have many happy returns of the day.

Rinda
 

rosada

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I live on a mountain top with my husband and one neighbor. I think of you here at OnLineClarity as my personal friends and family. Thank you all so much. You mean the world to me.
 

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