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Memorizing the I Ching 28. Ta Kuo / Preponderance of the Great

charly

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...28.2 Excess at...what? I've forgotten what stage the second line represents?... can anyone suggest what line 2 should be in this? Excess of...?
I see 28.2 more o less:

枯 dryied 楊 poplar 生 borns 稊 sprouts 。(1)
老 old 夫 master 得 gets 其 his 女 girlish 妻 wife 。
无 no 不利 unprofitable。

A girlish wife can be excessive for an old master. At least in western literature, «lolitas» could be fatal for old guys. That's why I think the line is not necessarily so good as some traslators wishes.

On the other hand an old man can be hard to bear for a girl, also excessive.

Nevertheless uneven mates can be advantageous due to experience provided by the older and the vitality provided by the younger. Well thought by yin tao, but not for everyone.

Yours,


Charly

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(1) 枯 = dried wood has the tree component at left and ancient at right, maybe not dried but an ancient sacred tree, the Tree of Life, the ridgepole of other lines could be a maypole.
 

rosada

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Thank you so much for the seranade, Charly. I heard it loud and clear.

As far as the second line, I meant, what does the second line represent in any hexagram? Like the 4th line is always the line of a minister, so in 28.4 we have Excessive help from some advisors - thus the image of bracing up the beam. The sixth line represents the time after the main event, so here I am at 28.6 asking for Excessive conversation after the analysis of the hexagram ordinarily would be complete...
 

charly

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... what does the second line represent in any hexagram? Like the 4th line is always the line of a minister, so in 28.4 we have Excessive help from some advisors - thus the image of bracing up the beam...
Rosada:

I read in Jow Tsung-Wa some concepts pertaining to the Han Dynasty:

1: people
2: scholar (1)
3: official
4: high ranking oficer (2)
5: king (3)
6: hermit

He also applies lines to the human body:

1: feet / jaw
2: calves / cheeks
3: waist / nose
4: abdomen / ears
5: chest / eyes
6: neck and head / forehead

Giving minister for line 4, wellcome all that braces but distrust of interested advicers. In this line LiSe and Kerson Huang sees the old character for «snake». As by common sense ministers / politicians can be snakes, but snakes were also revered / totemic animals. In all Tree of Life there are snakes.

Yours,

Charly


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(1) scholar = «shi», the same «shi» that in line 5, generally translated as young, ommited in W/B version, Blofeld translates it as «vigorous»
(2) In Legge «minister»
(3) Jow sais «king» but in chinese «Tian Zi» = Heaven's Son
 

charly

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...Of course there could be other uses for a woman, even if she was beyond child bearing years. She could care for the husband's old mother, for example.
Hey, Bruce:

Better for him to pay a nurse, don't you agree?
Servants are cheaper than wives.

May be H.28 is about the other uses you don't speak. Well known uses, not for old but for all women. This isn't a hidden layer of meaning in the I Ching, all translators know it (more if they lived in China, were chinese or married chinese women), but they almost don't speak about it(1).

Not surely the deeper level of meaning in the I Ching.

Yours,

Charly

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(1) except, of course, Crowley, but he isn't a translator but an interpreter.
 

rosada

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Thanks Charly.

Well some final thoughts on 28.6. Today my daughter drove up from Southern California. Long trip, all went well until the last when Dad misunderstood where she was and gave her mis directions as to where to turn to come up the hill. If this is the manefestation of 28.6 it emphasizes to me that if one were to receive this line you need to be doublly careful at the very end of a project and be very sure you have good directions, good yang energy to follow, to tie up the all important loose ends.
 
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bruce_g

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Hey, Bruce:

Better for him to pay a nurse, don't you agree?
Servants are cheaper than wives.
Hi Charly,

Now, yes, no doubt. But in a less conveniently modern culture, family was bred for workers.
 

ewald

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Ewald:
I think like you. No so good, no so bad.

Didn't Wilhelm/Baynes translation have some bias?
Wilhelm/Baynes is definitely biased. But then, how can anyone avoid bias completely?

1) Where chinese text says «old man», «old woman», W/B says «older man», «older woman»(I see you translate «older» too).
As far as I know, English, like Dutch (my mother language), has this language construct "older man" or "older woman," which means someone who's older than middle aged, but not old in the sense of aged to the point of being disabled as a result of old age (hearing and eye problems, mind notably not so clear any more).
Translating the phrase as "old man" or "old woman" would have conveyed a sense of someone "really old," which in my view is not what these two lines are about. So "older man" and "older woman" are more accurate, in my view. I'm not intending to just convey an age difference.

2) Where chinese text says a «shi» husband, generally translated as «young husband» W/B says only «husband». You gives «official», Blofeld «vigorous» husband!
There are two characters here, 士 and 夫, which W/B translates with only one word. With the very concise ancient Chinese, I'd be extremely hesitant to actually reduce two characters to a single English (or German) word, so I take that to be incorrect.

士 means gentleman, gentleman warrior, officer, knight, scholar
夫 means man, male adult, husband / soldier / laborer, artisan / sage, distinguished person.
So there is no Chinese for "young" here - this would be incorrect, as far as I'm concerned.
夫 is used here as "husband," so 士 denotes a particular kind of man. I think one of the military options fits best. "Officer" denotes someone who's probably "vigorous," as Blofeld renders this, someone who's in the prime of his life.

That man were older than wife was the general custom. Thus, almost all marriges shoud have «Everything furthers»?
Like I said, I don't use "older" just to convey an age difference.
 

charly

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Ewald:

Thanks very much for your explanations, I misunderstood some points in W/B, may be by forcing the parallelisms between lines.

... how can anyone avoid bias completely?
Nobody can, nobody's perfect.
English, like Dutch ... has ..."older man" or "older woman," which means someone who's older than middle aged ...Translating the phrase as "old man" or "old woman" would have conveyed a sense of someone "really old,"...
Spanish also has this use, but I first read it as "very old" and whit an implicit "older than". I was wrong.
... there is no Chinese for "young" here - this would be incorrect, as far as I'm concerned.
夫 is used here as "husband," so 士 denotes a particular kind of man... who's probably "vigorous," as Blofeld renders this, someone who's in the prime of his life.
I red it 士 as scholar /student = not a master because of the parallelism with line 2. Your option makes beter sense, for older women the advice can be «if you will get married, better with a tall man, nothing of moral impediment, only convenience»

In spanish sometimes «vieja» = «old woman» is used as «bruja» = «sorceress» (1), could it be that old woman means a female shaman (a shamanka), people for whom customed rules are not applied?

yours,

Charly

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(1) In spanish there is «llueve con sol, se casa una vieja» = «rains with sun, marries an old woman», associating two prodigies, like with the blossoming of the dry tree.For «Sun Shower» see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshower
A sunshower ... rain falls while the sun is shining ... often lead to the appearance of a rainbow... has a wide range of sometimes remarkably similar folkloric names in cultures around the world... A common theme is that of trickster animals, or the devil, getting married...
 

ewald

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In spanish sometimes «vieja» = «old woman» is used as «bruja» = «sorceress» (1), could it be that old woman means a female shaman (a shamanka), people for whom customed rules are not applied?
I personally don't think "old woman" is used as "female shaman" here.
The closest to bruja is in my view in 57.2.
 

charly

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I personally don't think "old woman" is used as "female shaman" here.
The closest to bruja is in my view in 57.2.
Thanks, Ewald, I had thought that if an older woman marries in early China, surely she had power, like the girl of Gou, may be if not economic, physical or spiritual power.

Yours,

Charly
 

knotxx

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random comment: I once got this hexagram as a diagnosis for what was wrong with our electrical system and -- duh -- a breaker had flipped. Something was too much for the system, and something had to give. I often think of that when I get this hexagram (today I got 28.5 for my weekly reading; hrm). Luckily in that case it was easily fixed--not always so, of course.
 

kenji b

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I asked the I Ching : What do I need to know about today?

The big sage in the swamp brought up hexagram 28 with lines 2 and 5.

So what was the day like?

Well I kept trying to figure out where this great exceeding was going to occur.
I noticed that I had this a whole lot of stuff which had been sitting around which I tried to tackle but it seems like there was just too much stuff to do.

The day went well though but I nearly got into a couple of arguments today!
Luckily I was able to keep my temper down so everything went fine.
I was constantly busy with something because well... there was always something to do!
It was all stuff that I'd put off.

So here's my new impression of 28!

All the great many things you didn't get around to doing yet.

I'm thinking that 28 means that you're going to drown or be crushed by stuff you need to do pretty soon if you don't get around to it but that you have exactly what you need to get out of the situation if you can stay calm in the face of isolation and loss.

I don't think the ridgepole symbolizes support necessarily because you're encouraged to get out from under it.
You're in the wrong situation and you need to move to another one somehow.

Lines:
1.The situation is not right but everything is still cool.

2.Woo Hoo!You gained something from this strange state of affairs.
You'll get a nice pretty wife who's younger and more nubile than you.
Bonus! Mom even likes her. Now get out already.

3.Uh damn...the ridgepole is BREAKING!

4.Wow! That was a close one. We nearly got crushed! I'm glad I brought that thick wooden beam for extra support!:D

5.There's not much to be gained anymore from staying here so let's leave.
"Waves hand furiously"

6.Great you've just been crushed by the ridgepole collapsing on you.
Oh... wait a minute you're okay. You're just drowning so you'll probably survive.

Hex 29 : Danger! Now I wonder how that happened? Does this involve any swimming?
 

chibrown

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hexagram 28

:bowsThis hexagram 28 is the energy of 2011. I see the financial markets heading this way where march 11, things go pear shape. The Blind: The first line is the people that are blind to the collapse of the market, the 2nd line will be there hardness and discipline to commit to this falling market, 3rd line will be the denial and disbelief, 4th line will be the panic and fear, 5th line will be the correcting of their mistakes and escaping their pending doom, 6th line will be regret, disappointment and accepance of how the crash of 'propondence of the excess' caught them with their pants down.
The Enlightened: The first line, ability to have reduced exposure and preparation of the crash, line 2 is there discipline to see the opportunities as they present themselves and enter the market in their own terms not the markets terms, line 3 will be the will power and determination not be sucked into the tormoil, line 4 will be standing back and observing with discipline without judgement, line 5 ability to be compassionate to help others when there will be a time of difficulty, line 6 will bring clarity and success as they will re enter the market when stocks will be discounted but will be nibble.

Brownie
 

ulkem

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Hexagram 28, 9 in the 5th place

Dear beautiful people of this I-Ching community,

i see there are many wise and profound people in here. After i read all the comments about 28, i now started to understand it better.
I got Hex. 28 as an answer about a month ago, of a very deep issue which i've been struggling with and carrying it in my mind for 4 years now. It is about-of course-a beloved one, after reading Martin's amazing comment with the explanation of Venus and Mercury, i now see it more clearly why my heart is not in its place anymore. It made perfect sense to me. I feel completely empty inside-after feeling too much for too long, i literally cannot feel my heart or any other emotions anymore, even when i cry, i don't feel pain in my chest and i still couldn't figure it out how the hell do i achieve to cry without feeling the heat?

Anyway, after i got this as an answer, a short time later i immediately understood that "the roof about to collapse" supposed to be my brain, because i was thinking too much and my head was really about to explode. Now i completely feel like what Trojan said;

"I see it as a challenging quite exhilerating hexagram - the roof is strained to breaking point but will the heroine get out in time - reminds me of the ending of those thrillers where the madman is stalking someone with a knife and the victim uses any wierd and wonderful means of escape - but they are always alone in this - all their usual support systems are gone, the phone is cut off etc etc thats how 28 can feel to me - when ones facing an extreme kind of experience it is often a unique and solitary experience"

But i really need your help to understand what Yi told me to do to get out of that horror house. So i got Hex. 28 with a changing yang line in the 5th place and i'm a 25 year old young woman, i guess... but my soul is very old if it makes any sense :) And i still couldn't figure out-or maybe i just can't be sure enough-what to do as a solution but i believe that the answer is in the second hexagram created by the changing line which is "32, Duration" in my case.

So i saw the long discussion about 9 at 5 and 9 at 2, but nobody talked about the secondary hexagrams that they created which is the essence for me. I feel that looking deep into the secondary hexagram is more important than the first hexagram, because a changing line means a very old line which ended its time and now changed its energy into something else, so the secondary hex. is about "now" and "what to do".

Excuse me for the long and boring intro, i trusted your kindness and i'm impatiently waiting for your feedbacks about 32. :)
 

ulkem

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Sorry, just a quick fix... Of course i know there's a whole another chapter under the title "Hex.32" but i'm just curious about the relation btw. 32 and 28.

Thank you very much.
 

diamanda

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Dear ulkem, I can feel your anguish, this sounds very painful to you.
Really sorry to read this, and my best wishes to you that it feels better soon.

About your reading, 28 line 5, to 32, my personal experience with this line,
would be best summed up in the well-known french expression:

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
(in english: the more it changes, the more it's the same thing)

A situation where, even when you think, and you hope, that things have
just had a turn for the better, suddenly it flops again. And then yet again.
And then, wow, another glimmer of hope - but lo and behold, it turns out
sour once again. Then you think things have revived again - but nooo it
was again a one off - and.... 32... the situation just continues like this.

It doesn't matter much if the girl is "old" and the guy is "young", it's the
situation here. It's an old situation. Even if it "flowers" once more, no
real and true "renewal" takes place, and, 32, it will just continue like this:
28, a very heavy male situation, so in short, every time one of the people
in this equation feels too heavy, they will seek relief with the other partner.
But this will not truly refresh the union. This is not a true union, it's more
of a relief-as-is-needed union. I personally found no other way than out.
It was just not good. I'm wishing you all the best to find a better one.
 

ulkem

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Dear Diamanda,

You really broke my heart now, because you completely understand and know the situation i'm in. I'm so impressed by your insightful comment, you're amazing! It seems that i can't runaway from this powerful information. I have to surrender. :( Only now i've understood what's the role of the "Duration" in here. I thought it might be an answer that would sooth me, but it seems like it's just a curse of a loop that will go on and on forever unless i find a way to end the situation in my mind.

It makes perfect sense because i was just thinking exactly the same thing last night; that i've fallen into that depressed state again for the third time but i don't know why it repeats. Because every time i feel "Ok, this time i'm freed from him for good, i feel it". Every single time i feel this detachment but again out of no reason, i start aching and missing again. Anyway, thank you very much for your wish but the sad thing is, i don't think i want any other one.

And this one also i've been feeling it for a long time but didn't pay attention: "28, a very heavy male situation, so in short, every time one of the people
in this equation feels too heavy"

I can't thank you enough for your beautiful heart and mind!
 

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