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Memorizing the I Ching: 33. Tui / Retreat

Sparhawk

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I did use the word 'perhaps.'

Let's hope my work and attention span allows me to philosophize a bit... I'll be synthetic... :D

How did you mean the pigs ending up on plates was the real moral of the story - sounds like you think the retreat in 33 is no use ?


Well, no, I don't think that; but only when one believes every hexagram is a static, self-referring universe, where the situation will remain enclosed within the confines of its image and text. Not a smart attitude, IMO... For immediate situations that may well be the case, and should be used as directional advise--just as any other hexagram--but time flows. Never feel too comfortable with an auspicious answer nor despair with an inauspicious one. Try to see the middle path and get back on it. Much easier said that done, of course.

IMHO, one must not forget the basic tenet of the Yi: "The immutability of change". I believe the essential use of the Yi is to, on the one hand, slow down the pendulum when the status quo is desirable (think dynasties); and accelerate it when it is not, just to slow it down when the desired situation is reached. Without a tool like the Yi we have no control of the proverbial pendulum and we are at its mercy; just riding the roller-coaster. Thus, a timely "retreat" is no guarantee that, in the end, you will not get caught.

To be honest, when I wrote about the moral I wasn't trying to find it. It popped-up. It was an epiphany of sorts, just thinking about the final destiny of the vast majority of pigs, not matter how good they are at twisting and turning to avoid capture. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. A pig is a beautiful metaphor. No small wonder it is one of the sacred animals for the Chinese.
 
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dobro p

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I know you're joking but in 33 one does escape and its not always the sense of running away from but running towards the inner world in order to preserve ones values isn't it ? How did you mean the pigs ending up on plates was the real moral of the story - sounds like you think the retreat in 33 is no use ?

I think that, rather than reveal some secret pessimsitic attitude tht Luis has, the 'pigs on a plate' line reveals his inability to resist making a joke. :D
 

Trojina

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For immediate situations that may well be the case, and should be used as directional advise--just as any other hexagram--but time flows. Never feel too comfortable with an auspicious answer nor despair with an inauspicious one. Try to see the middle path and get back on it. Much easier said that done, of course.

IMHO, one must not forget the basic tenet of the Yi: "The immutability of change". I believe the essential use of the Yi is to, on the one hand, slow down the pendulum when the status quo is desirable (think dynasties); and accelerate it when it is not, just to slow it down when the desired situation is reached. Without a tool like the Yi we have no control of the proverbial pendulum and we are at its mercy; just riding the roller-coaster. Thus, a timely "retreat" is no guarantee that, in the end, you will not get caught.

.

Well thats good advice - except I'm wondering if that applies if you get an unchanging hexagram - but I guess thats another thread :D
 

Sparhawk

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I think that, rather than reveal some secret pessimsitic attitude tht Luis has, the 'pigs on a plate' line reveals his inability to resist making a joke. :D

Oh my..., I'm becoming predictable!! :rofl:
 

Sparhawk

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Well thats good advice - except I'm wondering if that applies if you get an unchanging hexagram - but I guess thats another thread :D

You may be right about it being a subject for another thread... Let me just say though that the concept of an "unchanging hexagram" is a convenient convention to depict a gua that does not contain so called "moving lines," thus deriving in another. However, there's always a built-in tension, intrinsic to all hexagrams (thinking of line positions, trigrams, etc.) The Ninth and Tenths Wings are a testament to this.

In reality, there's no such thing as an "unchanging hexagram"...
 

charly

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...about piglets and retreats, I'm sure you've seen one of the games that is played in county fairs (ferias rurales) in which kids run after piglets and try to catch them... regardless of how good they are, they always end up in our plates...
Luis:

You reminds me another idiom «a soaped pig» (1) a very difficult to catch guy. Now I remember another custom, that of the «soaped pole», very used in our countries at independence times (2).

The market-place, where in former days were held a weekly market and celebrated fairs, lends a charm and interest to the place. Grassington Feast a century ago was one of the most celebrated in Craven, and was kept up many days, whilst feasting and revelry ran riot. “Clock dressings,” so named from friends being invited to “cum and dress ‘t’clock, &c., sack racing, bell racing, mummying, hasty pudding eaters, sword dancers, pace eggers, pole climbing, soaped pigs to catch. added to which were badger and bull-baiting, etc.
from: http://www.oldtykes.co.uk/Elmetour II.htm

Another folk feast of may, «Children's day» at Japan(4):
Kodomo No Hi (Children's Day) falls on May 5th and is one of the most popular national holidays in Japan. Although it is called Children's Day, it originally started as “Tango no Sekku” (Boy's Day) similar to Hinamatsuri (Girl's Day). After World War II it was changed to celebrate the health and growth of all children, in hopes of uplifting the spirits of Japan. Families hoist Koinobori (cloth carp streamers). These can range in size from a few feet to several meters in length. Koinobori are believed to be strong, spirited fish that are known for their determination in fighting up streams and through powerful waterfalls. Some are hung off balconies and others are hoisted up on huge flag poles.
From: http://www.japanlinked.com/about_japan/fha/kodomonohi.html

By the other hand, piglets don't go directly to our dishes, they firsth pass by the furnace, also related with the shape of the mountain trigram. Retreat = the furnace below the sky. And you know all the meanings furnace has (3).

Piglets not only used to end at a furnace, say they search for it actively. A holy place for a holy animal.


all%20around%20the%20may%20pole.jpg

From: ttp://www.elegantstitch.com/prairiemoon/all%20around%20the%20may%20pole.jpg

Please, look at the house in the above picture. It has the shape of H.33, a door below (mountain) and the sky above (three windows). In correspondence with it, three girls below and one maypole above.

Un abrazo,

Charly
_____________________________________
(1) «chancho enjabonado» in spanish, hard to catch.
(2) «palo enjabonado» used in the «Fiestas Mayas» (feast of May), curiously related to the folklore of the Maypole.
(3) maybe that's the reason why pigs were always associated with fornication...
(4) as you can see japanese like t«ango».
 

charly

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Mountain under heaven: the image of RETREAT.
Thus the superior man keeps the inferior man at a distance,
Not angrily but with reserve.

The mountain rises up under heaven, but owing to its nature it finally comes to a stop.
Rosada:

I wonder if W/B translates 君子 JunZi (1) as superior man an 小人 XiaoRen (2) as inferior only for holding the confucian point of view or maybe they are suble speaking about superior and inferior persons inside the same man.

Thus superior = heaven / sky = providence = to know before hand.
Inferior = mountain = will power but also stop / lack of it.

Yours,

Charly




__________________________________
(1) literally «Noble Child», no genre.
(2) «Small People», no genre.
 

charly

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Well thats good advice - except I'm wondering if that applies if you get an unchanging hexagram - but I guess thats another thread :D
Troyan:

I believe that the change law is here applied even if no changing lines in H.33.

Retreat nature is too turnable that troops in retreat can be even more dangerous than when they arrived. W/B are speaking of retrat having in mind to return, not a final defeat.

When you retreat you'r alive, when defeated you'r dead. Through all his history chinese troops has the fancy of beheading all the defeated foes.

Retreat = keept your head!

Done that you'r Troyan maybe you like to read Simone Weil's «Iliad or the Poem of Force»

3a15024128a053f75b898010._AA240_.L.jpg


A reader says at Amazon:
Simon Weil argues that the true hero in the Iliad is force. Force enslaves: one is swept away and blinded by the force one thinks one can handle. Force is today as yesterday at the center of human history.
From: http://www.amazon.com/Iliad-Poem-Force-Simon-Weil/dp/087574091X

Yours,

Charly
 

charly

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I think that, rather than reveal some secret pessimsitic attitude tht Luis has, the 'pigs on a plate' line reveals his inability to resist making a joke. :D
Hi, Dobro:

Precisely inability to resist is the main virtue (or I must say weakness?) of pigs!
I'm not saying that Luis is a pig but that all ourselves. Maybe you will think that I'm the firsth.

All of us will have our St.Martin (the day when pigs are killed) but while life lasts we can joke.

Yours,

Charly
 

Sparhawk

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Precisely inability to resist is the main virtue (or I must say weakness?) of pigs!

Hey!! I resent that! I thought you were my friend and all this time you've been gossiping with my wife behind my back! :rofl:
 

charly

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Hey!! I resent that! ..
Luis:

I'm your friend, I believed that you would susbscribe the idea.

After writing the previous post I had the feeling of having yet read about this matters. I went to Harmen's page and reread:

33-1: 遯尾.厲...
"Withdrawal at the tale. Disaster..."
Wei 尾 ... shows a man or animal with a tail, and 'tail' is therefore the common translation. But Wei 尾 also means 'the mating of animals', and that would make the translation 'withdrawal during mating'. Nice thinking, but probably we are dealing here with a military action...
From: http://itcn.nl/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=207&Itemid=3

... and if not?

I see that Harmen don't translate 厲 as danger but as disaster. I believe that it means hard / harsh, but maybe in modern usage.

For me the scorpion image strikes hard, it carry us to the poisonous scorpion tail, thus the idea of danger. But maybe the line is telling us that is hard to be at the tail of the retreat, exposed at the rear guard of a troop that is retreating. Also that is hard to be among the people who remais defenseless when a troop retreats. It's hard to be at the rear of whatever it be.

And if it means «beware that May don't last forever»? (1)

Un abrazo,


Charly

________________________

(1) « ... tú no me dijiste que mayo fuera eterno» (Amado Nervo)
 

Sparhawk

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Luis:

I'm your friend, I believed that you would susbscribe the idea.


OK, but don't believe everything my wife tells you. If you want the truth, talk to my mom... :rofl:
 

Sparhawk

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Oh, and that "and that 'withdrawal during mating'" is a Russian roulette... It is an example of a "retreat" that can come beck and bite you in the ass... :D
 

dobro p

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OK, but don't believe everything my wife tells you. If you want the truth, talk to my mom... :rofl:

When I'm with your wife Luis, she never mentions you...

Neither does your mum, for that matter.
 

Sparhawk

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When I'm with your wife Luis, she never mentions you...

Neither does your mum, for that matter.

They don't?? That's first!! Now, don't make start a thread of "Dobro, your momma is..." :D
 
M

maremaria

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Charly mentionent Troy and thought of Trojan horse

In brief the story (from answer.com)
The Trojan Horse
Trojan comes from Greek mythology, in which the Greeks battled the Trojans (people of Troy). After years of being unable to break into the fortified city, the Greeks built a wooden horse, filled it with soldiers and pretended to sail away. After the Trojans brought the horse into the city, the Greek soldiers crept out at night, opened the gates of Troy to the returning soldiers, and Troy was destroyed.

The Greek troops actually never retreat, just tricked the Trojans.The direct attack didn’t worked so they changed tactics and as a result they capture the city and win the war.
Probably not very relevant with retreat as Wilhelm describes, but still points out that a change of course, when situations demand, its necessary.

Maria


p.s. Luis, you said "I thought you were my friend and all this time you've been gossiping with my wife behind my back! "
The story of the Trojan horse is the source of the saying “Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.”;)
 
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Sparhawk

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The story of the Trojan horse is the source of the saying “Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.”;)


Boy, I know... I'm in the ocean shipping business, if that gives you a clue... I've been in Greece many times, most of those trying to collect money... :D
 

Sparhawk

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I guess you don't know much about the ocean shipping biz and how influential and how much clout Greek shipowners have, right? :rofl: I love the country, the people and the food (addicted to olives and chilled Retsina wine<<----), I used to travel there every other year for the Posidonia Shipping Conference and then spend a week or so doing my rounds around Athens and Piraeus. Sigh, I miss those trips.
 
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maremaria

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I guess you don't know much about the ocean shipping biz and how influential and how much clout Greek shipowners have, right? :rofl: I love the country, the people and the food (addicted to olives and chilled Retsina wine<<----), I used to travel there every other year for the Posidonia Shipping Conference and then spend a week or so doing my rounds around Athens and Piraeus. Sigh, I miss those trips.

yes, I don't know much about the ocean shipping biz. As for the cunning Greek shipowners I don't know much :rolleyes:
Maybe it comes after Odyssey (the one who actually concieved the idea of trojan horse ). One can say they are good (?) in Retreat , in other words skillful and clever at getting what they want :D
 

charly

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Charly mentionent Troy ...The Greek troops actually never retreat...
María:

You'r looking at the story with a very far perspective, like to see a village from a flying bomber. If you get some close-ups, if you get more approach you will see that troops always are advancing and retreating, that's why H.33 is so general (1).

I encourage you very much to read the book of Simone Weil (2), after reading it, if you like greek classics, you will like it more. In real wars there aren't such things as «troops that never retreat», there aren't such things as «warriors without fear» nor «Glory», there is only «Death» here and there, beating «superior men» and «plain people».

«Retreat» and not «victory» is the final, general law for all of us (3).

Yours,

Charly

_____________________________________
(1) ... and, of course, not only applied to military affairs,
(2) Simone Weil: The Iliad or the Poem of Force, possible to find something in the web.
(3) meanwhile, who goes to clears us that we have danced? [«quien nos quita lo bailado?»].
 

getojack

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The Lines

kid_catching_rat_by_tail.gif


Six at the beginning means:

At the tail in retreat. This is dangerous.
One must not wish to undertake anything.

~ Wilhelm/Baynes ~

 

charly

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...At the tail in retreat. This is dangerous.One must not wish to undertake anything...~ Wilhelm/Baynes ~
Getojack:

Here the chinese text for 33.1 whit W/B and other options:

遯 | dun4 | retreat | to conceal, to escape, pig, piglet
尾 | wei3 | tail | back guard, back, rear, to mate, to breed (1)
厲 | li4 } | dangerous | severe, harsh , hard
勿 | wu4 | must not | do not, not
用 | yong4 | undertake | to use, to apply
有 | you3 | ? | to have, there is, there are
攸 | you1 | ? | distant, far, a place, where?
往 | wang3 | ? | to go in a direction, towards

As you can see W/B had taken some licenses here:

1) «dangerous» isn't what the text says but what it suggests.
2) the rendering for the prognostication «wu yong you you wang» is an advice: «One must not wish to undertake anything» not a literal translation (2).

The commentary of W/B says:
In a retreat it is advantageous to be at the front. Here one is at the back, in immediate contact with the pursuing enemy. This is dangerous, and under such circumstances it is not advisable to undertake anything. Keeping still is the easiest way of
escaping from the threatening danger.W/B

A military interpretation, it is not healthy to be at back guard, better be quiet.

But if you keep still, how could you to retreat? Maybe W/B is ecouraging troops at the back guard to desert? Desertors also runs heavy risks, they can be executed from the back if officials caught him or can be killed by the foes depending of his humour.

The picture you (Getojack) post is telling us that the true danger is to have an exposed tail, folktales speaks of animals (3) cought for having forgot to conceal his tail. The advice could be «if you show your tail, any hiding place can help you» (4).

Yours,

Charly:bows:

______________________________
(1) the last two given as a possibility for Harmen.
(2) a literal translation could be: «useless to have where to go», looks unlucky instead of which «not wish to undertake anything» looks pretty more optimistic about the possible results.
(3) generally foxes.
(4) in a moralistic way it exhorts you not to show your bad aspects, not to show the raveled thread [«no mostrar la hilacha», «las patas de la sota»].
 

frank_r

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I believe so. Mountains where doors to the other world, sacred places for sacrifices, access to heaven and earth. In our inner withdraw we have more ease of contact with that sort of things.

Yours,

Charly

That is why in most hexagrams with mountain trigrams, there is embedded the meaning of a door, a door that leads to an inner light. For keeping still in meditation is the doorway to the spiritual world. As such, hexagram 20 line 2 says "contemplation through the crack of a door. The doorway to the spiritual world has opened just enough that we can get a glimpse of its sublimity, and as such recognize the reality of it. It is when we get into line four that we begin our training in this spiritual dimension. In line three we make the choice which world we want to pay the most attention to.

Gene

I like those idea's of the door in the mountain. the trigram mountain is also the trigram of the teacher, and a good one can always retreat to his inner light.
Mountain is also the trigram of the nature "spirits", here we can find our own deepest connection with nature.
Small intestine also has a connection with mountain, the understream is that of the element earth. And I never understood the small intestines in acupuncture very well, but when I think of the possibility of retreat into one own naure back to where the "nature spirits" are living it makes really good sense to me. When the heart doesn't know it any more it can go back and have a "meeting"with the spirits of nature.
 

RindaR

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Hi, María:

I belive so. Mountains where doors to the other world, sacred places for sacrifices, access to heaven and earth. In our inner withdraw we have more ease of contact with that sort of things.

Yours,

Charly


They are the same in some American Indian sacred lore - Mountains, exposed cliff faces, bare rock are doors or windows to the spirit world..

Rinda
 
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maremaria

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You'r looking at the story with a very far perspective, like to see a village from a flying bomber.
(QUOTE]

Charly, I agree with your "close-up view ", But i don't understand what you mean about the "far perspective " :confused:

«Retreat» and not «victory» is the final, general law for all of us (3).

(3) meanwhile, who goes to clears us that we have danced? [«quien nos quita lo bailado?»].

«Retreat» can not lead to a «victory» ? To save ourselves ,even if we have withdraw from our initial goal ,for exampe, isn't that a victory ?

Can you explain footnote #3 and what do you mean by «quien nos quita lo bailado?». I google by found only pages in spanish (i think)

Maria
 

Sparhawk

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quien nos quita lo bailado?

Another one of those aphorisms that only makes real sense in the original language. A literal translation is, +/-, "who can take away what we've danced (or "already danced")?", meaning that, what you have already enjoyed in life, no one can take away.
 
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maremaria

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Another one of those aphorisms that only makes real sense in the original language. A literal translation is, +/-, "who can take away what we've danced (or "already danced")?", meaning that, what you have already enjoyed in life, no one can take away.

Thanks Luis. I'll send you a bottle of retsina ;)
 

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