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Memorizing the I Ching: 33. Tui / Retreat

charly

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...i don't understand what you mean about the "far perspective " ... «Retreat» can not lead to a «victory» ? To save ourselves ,even if we have withdraw from our initial goal ,for exampe, isn't that a victory ? ...

María:

I want to say that if we condensed too much a story we lose the details, the little stories within the general story. It's as if we were looking something from a very far place. We get a wide perpective, a ladscape, but we lose some details. Looking from too far we can lose the human scale of the story.

It's not the same to look at targets and to look at human beings.

Given that the general law is «Change», «Victory» is always temporary, after all victories the wheel turns another time.

I apologize for the spanish, thanks God is Luis giving a better translation.

Yours,

Charly
 

charly

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They are the same in some American Indian sacred lore - Mountains, exposed cliff faces, bare rock are doors or windows to the spirit world..
Rinda

Rinda:

I just remember a page from Tony of Niza availabe at http://web.archive.org/web/20030428103853/www7.gateway.ne.jp/~saroop/realsade/yijing17.htm

... Recently, while reading up on 'The World of the Senses Arrangement' in Steve Moore's scholarly and informative The Trigrams of Han, I came across the following intriguing passage about GEN: "Ken lies in the North-East. In later Taoist religion, the North-East is thought to be the direction from which the demonic forces enter the world, and this area must be ritually sealed off before performing certain services in the temple. " Steve Moore. The Trigrams of Han - Inner Structures of the I Ching (Wellingborough: The Aquarian Press, 1989) p.67.

... a two-way door!

Yours,

Charly
 

Sparhawk

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LOL, Charly, thanks for finding that! I haven't read anything from Tony Saroop in about ten years!! I'm glad he's quoting Steve Moore, whose book is top notch, albeit with some minor mistakes, as Steve himself divulged later. If we go by Tony's opinions, well..., let's say the man was a "real character." He had some strange ideas... Not to mention a certain fixation for Sade and "Sadeism" (that link is also available from the Archive.org site that Charly found)

Does anyone else remembers Tony Saroop? He used to post in Hex-8. He disappeared from Yi forums many years ago...

L
 

charly

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Does anyone else remembers Tony Saroop? He used to post in Hex-8. He disappeared from Yi forums many years ago...

Thanks, Luis:

I liked very much his page about the little guys that HAMSTERS are. Also the page about DOGS barking. He was very fond of Rutt bloody translation whinch he tooks as the true reallity.

Un abrazo,


Charly
 

rosada

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I used to think Retreat was the opposite of Duration, as in someone backing out of a commitment. Now I'm thinking it's what happens after you've made your choice and now want to step out of the Public Arena. Like Influence and Duration are about finding a partner and making a commitment, then when one has one's partner the next instinct is to pull away from the larger social network and to focus on just the two of us. Thus, if you want the Influence to Endure it is necessary to Retreat.
 
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maremaria

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Hi Charly,

I express myself in a vague way ,I know that, but let me explain what I had in mind and then I’ll retreat. :)

Lets say that the ‘war” is about a city called “Change” and Trojan people all the obstacles that prohibit us to enter in the city. (obstacles could be people, situations, habits , ideas and parts of our own self).
We assign to our General to gather our troops and capture the city. They attack but after 10 years they realize that this plan is not efficient. The defenders/obstacles are stronger than they assumed.
What now ? Time to retreat and think again the situation.
Option #1. keep the same plan ….. no it doesn’t work Moreover the soldiers are tired, many of them have been killed, the resources are stinking….etc
Option # 2 Give up and return to home.(old situation) … no this city is important to us.
Option # 3. change the approach. Maybe we try to take the city in a wrong way. how can we enter in the city. How can we open the gates? Plan B : Trojan horse

The city was taken the war was won . Maybe we can call it a “victory”

From the side of Trojan people , although sages have warned them not to accept gifts from the Greeks they believed that Greeks were defeated and thus they surrender their horse as a sign of respect to the winner. Happy for the end of the siege celebrate it. When the Greek army enter they where not able to defend their city.

Each war ,imo, real or not, outward or within us includes Death. Something has to die to make space for the new. And even the smallest achievement brings us a step closer to “Change “ should be celebrated as a victory. Even a withdrawal in order to reduce a loss of something important i.e. our self ,is a kind of victory.

Probably still vague. Maybe because the horse has a special meaning for me which make this example not clear to other .

As for the Spanish........ I learned something new. Never heard this expression before. Thank you.

Maria

p.s. Charly, just understand what you ment by saying “You'r looking at the story with a very far perspective, like to see a village from a flying bomber.”
Trying to figure out why you used “flying bomber” Think it was the word “sacked” I used. Search again for the meaning of this word . Wrong word !! Pure English and a bad dictionary. Going to change it.
 
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Trojina

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I used to think Retreat was the opposite of Duration, as in someone backing out of a commitment. Now I'm thinking it's what happens after you've made your choice and now want to step out of the Public Arena. Like Influence and Duration are about finding a partner and making a commitment, then when one has one's partner the next instinct is to pull away from the larger social network and to focus on just the two of us. Thus, if you want the Influence to Endure it is necessary to Retreat.

hey Rosada i thought you'd retreated and now your're back :) anyway 33 is one of my favourite hexagrams - retreating to inner space
 

rosada

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33.1.
The end of Summer.
Cold weather coming on soon.
Oh, I'd rather play.
 

charly

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... the ‘war” is about a city called “Change” ...
... Trojan people ... prohibit us to enter in the city...
... our troops ... attack but after 10 years they realize that this plan is not efficient...
... Plan B : Trojan horse ...
... The city was taken the war was won. Maybe we can call it a “victory”
... Each war ... includes Death. Something has to die to make space for the new... a kind of victory.

Hi, María:

A kind of victory, of course, int the short term. Maybe you'r too young or maybe I'm too old!

I will take your story: Greeks defeated Trojans applying a trick, they are the smarter and made some space in the world (1).

We can think that the trick was smart because we yet know the end of the story, but when the Greeks applied it they cann't know the results.

And if Trojans were less ingenuous? If because of a suspicion they could have burnt the Wooden-Horse? Maybe the Greeks had a plan «C», but what about the warriors inside the horse? More space in the world.

Did the Greeks think that the Trojans, that resisted 10 years, with all his heavy warriors, with all his economical power, could have been so unconscious and trust in the Greeks' retreat?

Being the results ucertain, was a good idea to put the warriors in the horse waiting for a miracle? I'm not sure (2).

The yours is a good story for 33.4:

| hao3 | good
| dun4 | retreat
| jun1 | noble
| zi3 | young
| ji2 | lucky
| xiao3 | small
| ren2 | people
| pi3 | not

Good trick, greek leaders lucky, small people not.
W/B: Voluntary retreat brings good fortune to the superior man and downfall to the inferior man.

Also good for 34.3:

| xiao3 | small
| ren2 | people
| yong4 | apply
| zhong4 | force
| jun1 | noble
| zi3 | young
| yong4 | apply
| wang3 | tricks

Small people (Trojans?) used to resist, Noble-Young applied a statagem.
W/B says: The inferior man works through power.The superior man does not act thus.

You say «something has to die», I would say more: «everyting has to die» (in the long term), but people that has to die in war used not to agree whit it.

Which do you think can be the reason Baynes translated «superior» instead of «noble» and «inferior» instead of «small»? Another doubt: both, Greeks and Trojans were «Noble» perhaps Noble-Youngs are military and Small-People civilian? (3)

Yours,

Charly

___________________________
1) Trojans made some space too.
2) Story is not History, maybe there were a traitor inside the town, a Greek agent among the Trojans, an agent whose key-name was Wooden-Horse?
3) Remember that «Mechanical Engineers make weapons, Civil Engineers make targets»
 
M

maremaria

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Which do you think can be the reason Baynes translated «superior» instead of «noble» and «inferior» instead of «small»?
QUOTE]

I really don't know. :eek:
What do you think? I'm curious.

For some reason, I don't like superior/inferior . Seems like refering to "quantinty" (in my mind) and sounds very static to me.According to dictionaries ,I'm wrong but this is how it sounds to my ears .:confused:

I prefer noble/small .Think its more about "quality " gained through a proccess (maybe?). It sounds more dynamic to me. There is a pontetial for growth, development, maturity etc. (especially for the small one)

Maria
 

rosada

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Not sure where this whole conversation is going so I'm just posting some notes of my own and please feel free to talk around me...

Reviewing what we've covered so far:

RETREAT. Success.
In what is small, perseverance furthers.
Thus the superior man keeps the inferior man at a distance.
Not angrily but with reserve.

Okay, so situations come to mind where one is trying to detach from a group and the advice is it is best not to make a dramatic show of detaching, but to simply no longer put energy into the old pattern.

33.1
At the tail in retreat. This is dangerous.
One must not wish to undertake anything.

Focusing on this line these last couple of days I've been aware of threshold points throughout the day, and how we shift our behavior when we cross from one world with it's rules and enter another with another set of expectations. For example, walking into a library with a friend. Does one finish the conversation or immediately adopt silence? There's a feeling of being required to take sides and a feeling it would be better to just go with the flow.

Interesting that 33.1 changes to 13, Fellowship. Is this saying now is the time to know which group you belong with?
 

Sparhawk

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Regarding "jun zi," I've read one of the nicest translations in a book by Adeline Yen Mah, "Watching the Tree". She translates it as "ideal man". In a chapter about Confucius and Confucianism she writes:

Confucian beliefs were revolutionary when they were first propounded because jun zi originally meant a member of the social elite--someone who had been born into the aristocracy. But according to Confucius, any man whose conduct and character warranted it might become jun zi regardless of his ancestry. He emphasized the obligations rather than the rights of individuals.

BTW, I really recommend that little book. It is a really nice read.
 

rosada

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Six in the second place means:
He holds him fast with yellow oxhide.
No one can tear him loose.

Yellow is the color of the middle. It indicates that which is correct and in line with duty. Oxhide is strong and not to be torn.
While the superior men retreat and the inferior men press after them, the inferior man represented here holds on so firmly and tightly to the superior man that the latter cannot shake him off. And because he is in quest of what is right and so strong in purpose, he reaches his goal. Thus the line confirms what is said in the Judgement: "in what is small" - here equivalent to "in the inferior man" - "perseverance furthers."

Here the retreat is hampered. This line occupies the middle of the trigram Ken, Keeping Still. Yellow is the color of the middle. The line is near the nine in the third place, hence holds fast. Here we have the perseverance of the inferior, the small, referred to in the Judgement.
 

Trojina

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Wilhelms commentary makes not much sense to me in that i've never been able to relate 33.2 to an smaller/inferior person clinging to a greater - so I'm not sure if 33.2 means you're stuck with something whether you like it or not ,the attachment is too strong to withdraw, or it just means you hold fast to your withdrawal despite anyones attempts to retrieve you ? Or is it being put under pressure, tied to do something ? Who is holding who fast ?
 

dobro p

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Interesting that 33.1 changes to 13, Fellowship. Is this saying now is the time to know which group you belong with?

I don't think it's anywhere near that specific. In the root text, I think the connection with 13 is only implied in the fact that you're 'at the tail', like the last guy in a line of men on patrol in enemy territory. You're the one that gets picked off first. The fellowship is implied in the fact that you're part of a group and in the vulnerable position. (Or you're like the cat's tail as it squeezes through a narrow, difficult space. The tail's vulnerable as the cat withdraws from the place it's in as it moves on to the new place. This isn't a group situation, unless you think of the tail as part of the 'group' of body parts that make up a cat lol.)
 

dobro p

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I used to think Retreat was the opposite of Duration, as in someone backing out of a commitment. Now I'm thinking it's what happens after you've made your choice and now want to step out of the Public Arena.

33 doesn't necessarily mean withdrawing from a public arena. It can be withdrawing from studying a particular book, for instance. (Although a book is sort of a public arena, it's more of a private arena, really.) 33 can be withdrawing from a relationship. It can be withdrawing from the time one spends on computer games. It can be private and personal withdrawings, in other words. No?
 

dobro p

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Regarding "jun zi," I've read one of the nicest translations in a book by Adeline Yen Mah, "Watching the Tree". She translates it as "ideal man".


Thanks for the recommendation of the book. It looks good.

As for 'jun zi' - in the Pali texts of Buddhism, there's the word 'Ariya' that crops up regularly. It's root meaning is aristocratic - the Ariyans were the relatively light-skinned invaders about 1600 BC who became the lords and nobles in the society they set up. But in the Pali canon, Ariya means 'noble' in a more interior sense (in the same way that Jesus took the Jewish law and expounded its interior psychological and spiritual meaning). An older, OUTER meaning is used with an INNER significance in the hands of a master. My guess is that 'jun zi' falls into the same category. It means 'noble' in the sense of inner nobility, nothing to do with bloodlines or class.

I've been using a really clumsy rendition - 'chief son' - just to make it sound new and unusual, in order to escape preconceptions and unfortunate associations with the word 'noble', but you know, I'm thinking that maybe 'noble' does the job best of all 'jun zi'.
 

Sparhawk

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I've been using a really clumsy rendition - 'chief son' - just to make it sound new and unusual, in order to escape preconceptions and unfortunate associations with the word 'noble', but you know, I'm thinking that maybe 'noble' does the job best of all 'jun zi'.

'Noble' works for me, in the sense of it being related to inner nobility. 'Chief's son' is hilarious! Still sounds aristocratic, though... :D
 

dobro p

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'Noble' works for me, in the sense of it being related to inner nobility. 'Chief's son' is hilarious! Still sounds aristocratic, though... :D

No, no - not 'chief's son'. Chief son. Chief means 'main, principal, most important'. Which puts it in the quadrant of 'son of heaven' I think. But sometimes it just reminds me of Charlie Chan's 'Number 1 Son' from those old Hollywood movies. Unfortunate. I think I might shift to 'noble'. Or maybe 'noble son'. I like the 'son' idea.
 

Sparhawk

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No, no - not 'chief's son'. Chief son. Chief means 'main, principal, most important'.

Ah..., understood. Amazing how much of a difference a little possessive apostrophe can make in a sentence. :D Now, do you see it as a qualitative attribute (i.e. being 'chief son' by reason of merit, regardless of sequential birth) or sequential one (i.e. 'first born' and from there a Zhen kind of quality)? That would make a real difference and I'm assuming that you have the former in mind, rather than the latter.
 
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maremaria

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33.1
At the tail in retreat. This is dangerous.
One must not wish to undertake anything.

Does it means that one has lost the opportunity to retreat on time ? Losts the benefits of a retreat ? Already too exposed to the danger ? Then what ? What does "not wish to undertake anything" means ? Kind of "be invisible" ? But how ?
:confused:
 

rosada

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I don't know if it'a appropriate, but when I read 33.1 I am reminded of the Bible story of Peter and the cock crowing. When Jesus was about to be arrested, his disciple, Peter, swore to Him that he would standby Him. Jesus replied that Peter would actually deny him three times before the cock crowed. Indeed, this is exactly what happened. Jesus was arrested and it was a very dangerous time to be associated with Him. Peter did not "wish to undertake anything," that is, he did not wish to admit he was a disciple, and so he denied Him three times and then the cock crowed.

About 33 meaning leaving the public arena. I was looking for understanding about the sequence, why 32.Duration leads to 33.Retreat. At first I thought Retreat was the opposite of Duration, as in someone vowing to be married forever and then deciding to back off from that pledge, to Retreat from the marrage, from Duration. After looking at it more closely I'm seeing Retreat as meaning the opposite, that Retreat is what happens when one keeps one's pledge to Endure. If you pledge Duration in one area of your life you will find in order to keep that commitment you will Retreat from other areas. And as it is your personal pledge that is determining what you cling to and what you let go of, Retreat will be about detaching from a more general, public position to a more refined personal choice. I'm thinking Sleep is an example of Retreat.
 

dobro p

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Now, do you see it as a qualitative attribute (i.e. being 'chief son' by reason of merit, regardless of sequential birth) or sequential one (i.e. 'first born' and from there a Zhen kind of quality)? That would make a real difference and I'm assuming that you have the former in mind, rather than the latter.

Both actually, but nothing to do with family or class. I see it as 'first and favorite son of heaven', meaning that the jun zi is in harmony with the purposes of the entire cosmos because he/she is on a path of truth, of spiritual growth, of returning to Source and therefore (like the prodigal son in the Bible story) being met and helped by the Father on the return journey.

If you're a spiritual person (this word 'spiritual' is problemtic cuz so many people are allergic to it, but it's the best one I have right now), then you *are* a firstborn in a kind of way, and it *is* a qualitative attribute. Both.
 

dobro p

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About 33 meaning leaving the public arena. I was looking for understanding about the sequence, why 32.Duration leads to 33.Retreat. At first I thought Retreat was the opposite of Duration, as in someone vowing to be married forever and then deciding to back off from that pledge, to Retreat from the marrage, from Duration. After looking at it more closely I'm seeing Retreat as meaning the opposite, that Retreat is what happens when one keeps one's pledge to Endure. If you pledge Duration in one area of your life you will find in order to keep that commitment you will Retreat from other areas. And as it is your personal pledge that is determining what you cling to and what you let go of, Retreat will be about detaching from a more general, public position to a more refined personal choice. I'm thinking Sleep is an example of Retreat.

Rosada, I see your understanding of the Yi as being heavily influenced by the Confucian interpretation, which has a heavy social overlay in all of its readings. If you let go of that, the range of meaning in the Yi becomes much broader, making it more useful, I think. I also see your understanding of the Yi as being heavily influenced by the present hexagram sequence. I always see this as something that gets in the way of understanding each hexagram more than elucidating the meaning of each hexagram.

It's easier to see each hexagram in its own terms, in other words. Or, if you have to compare, then compare each hexagram to its mate. 33 is paired with 34. I think you'll get much more clarity out of comparing 33 and 34 than you will by comparing 33 and 32. I hope this doesn't come across as criticism; I'd be happy to see you put down all that unnecessary baggage, is all.
 

charly

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Does it means that one has lost the opportunity to retreat on time ? Losts the benefits of a retreat ? Already too exposed to the danger ? Then what ? What does "not wish to undertake anything" means ? ...

María:

W/B are speaking in military terms of an ordered retreat. Troops under flag are not able to undertake anything by his own account. Each other must take the responsibilities of the place asigned to him, even under the worse dangers. From strict discipline depends the luck of the whole.

This approach is not the only possible depending on how do you interpret the meaning of «tail».

If you interpret «tail» as «pigtail» could be a reference to the collapse of the Manchu Empire, «the retreat of the Pigtails», a time when officials wishing to undertake reforms risked his head. Remember that Lao Nai-Hsuan was a minister of the Manchú Government, maybe he needs to retreat during the Manchu Empire and also after it falls.

Yours,


Charly
 

rosada

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Hi dobro,
I don't know anything about Confucian interpretation of the I Ching, so I think it's kinda cool that my own poking about actually simulates a recognized Philosophy! I do know there is some debate over the best possible sequence of the hexagrams and indeed an argument could be made in favor of any arrangement no doubt. Still, the one we are using here is the one most widely recognized and as we are supposedly working to memorise the I Ching, having a story that links the hexagrams together can be a useful aid to memorising their sequence and understanding their meanings. At least, I'm having fun looking for such a link.
 
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maremaria

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....From strict discipline depends the luck of the whole.

Charly

So, the decision to retreat is already taken but retreat is still in progress. One should be strict to his/hers decision and not let emotions, impulses etc. to distract him/her ?

Maria
 
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maremaria

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I don't know if it'a appropriate, but when I read 33.1 I am reminded of the Bible story of Peter and the cock crowing. When Jesus was about to be arrested, his disciple, Peter, swore to Him that he would standby Him. Jesus replied that Peter would actually deny him three times before the cock crowed. Indeed, this is exactly what happened. Jesus was arrested and it was a very dangerous time to be associated with Him. Peter did not "wish to undertake anything," that is, he did not wish to admit he was a disciple, and so he denied Him three times and then the cock crowed.

So he decide to withdraw from this situation (he could do nothing helpfull to Jesus) and join with the others disciples (13) :confused:

Maria
 

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