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mercury

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Hello there, hope everyone's well...looking for some thoughts on a reading I did. I asked whether leaving something totally up to fate could lead to a desired outcome. I got 19.2.3.4 > 55. It sounded great to me, then I looked up the transitional hexagrams generated by the changing lines (19.2 > 24.3 >36.4 > 55) and there's some real ambiguous stuff there, particularly 36.4.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to look at this? Thanks...
 

Sparhawk

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Well, if you want some method to interpret this, according to Zhu Xi, when you have three moving lines, you don't use the line statements but rather the Judgement of both hexagrams. Then you are supposed to use some charts to decide which of the two should be emphasized. You could find some information in Steve Marshall's site (Biroco.com).

Steve prefers to put emphasis on the meaning of the middle line, over the other two.

In Steve's site you will find that Ed Hacker found a way to bypass the use of Zhu Xi's charts:

Namely, when three lines change, if the bottom line of the hexagram is among those changing then the first hexagram's judgment should take precedence over the second. If not, you stress the second hexagram's judgment over the first. There is no rationale for this beyond the fact that it just happens to give the same result as Zhu Xi's charts.

Luis
 

bradford

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Hello there, hope everyone's well...looking for some thoughts on a reading I did. I asked whether leaving something totally up to fate could lead to a desired outcome. I got 19.2.3.4 > 55. It sounded great to me, then I looked up the transitional hexagrams generated by the changing lines (19.2 > 24.3 >36.4 > 55) and there's some real ambiguous stuff there, particularly 36.4.
Anyone have any suggestions on how to look at this? Thanks...

It might help to remember that Wu Wei or "not doing" doesn't mean there will be no effort or work on your part (24.3). And that even things working themselves out by themselves might still use your own humble self for cheap labor. 36.4 > 55 suggest the possibility that things could get a little overwhelming if you give up the option of making executive-type decisions. You could find yourself in "character building" situations.
 

dobro p

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In addition to what Bradford's said, I'd like to say something that supports it. I'm currently calling Hex 19 'Undertaking/Overseeing' by which is meant taking responsibility for carrying something out. That's the opposite, perhaps, of letting fate take care of things.
 
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lightofreason

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Hello there, hope everyone's well...looking for some thoughts on a reading I did. I asked whether leaving something totally up to fate could lead to a desired outcome.

so you asked fate about fate. ok.......!

mercury said:
I got 19.2.3.4 > 55. It sounded great to me, then I looked up the transitional hexagrams generated by the changing lines (19.2 > 24.3 >36.4 > 55) and there's some real ambiguous stuff there, particularly 36.4.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to look at this? Thanks...

Yes - the approach is not worthy ;-)

19 into 55 reflects the 32-ness of 19 where hex 32 controls the line positions group of 2.3.4. 32-ness It is about issues of commitment where such is expressed in 19 through analogy to the characteristics of 55 - i.e. diversity in commitments. This makes 19 'flexible' as it approaches the high and the high defers to the low...so leaving something up to fate or not depends on local context where that includes your diversity in thinking! ;-)

The other approach is to treat each line as a department in a corporation hierarchy. Line 2 covers 'supervisor' level, line 3 'minor lord' level and line 4 'minister level'. Consider these all acting on their own and the sum of such is 55; IOW dont interpret them linked together - in a corporate hierarchy the mail room operates to a high degree 'independent' to the management levels (until someone notices!)

The pure temporal approach is here invalid since you have three moving lines where time focus is on one - see Plum Blossom method for THAT approach ;-)

To consider your original question from the position of your emotions - ask them :

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusEProact.html

This will cover the situation overall that has led to you asking the question in the first place.

Chris.
 

miakoda

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Mercury-

Interesting question you asked about leaving life up to fate. In that context, 19.2, 24.3, 36.4>55 could be interpreted as a possible pathway for answering this philosophical question for yourself.

19.2 - an important connection (idea? concept? epiphany?) nears.
24.3 - you seek it urgently and it brings you urgently back to yourself, your feelings.
36.4 - you get the heart of the matter.
55 - this leads to abundance and a true understanding.

This makes many new questions form in my mind--Were you asking the Yi Jing if you should surrender responsibility for your actions? Were you asking if fate is going to take care of your future? Are you someone who is trying to learn how to follow the forces of the tao and not direct things? Do you have a context or relationship in mind that you were hoping would be illuminated by the general question?

My questions to you are rhetorical, of course....no need to answer me.

Good luck.

All the best,

Miakoda
 

mercury

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Hi all, and thanks, as usual, much food for thought. Just wanted to respond to Miakoda's questions...my question wasn't about surrendering responsibility for my actions, it was really wondering whether there was a possibility of my hopes being realized even if I gave up actively trying to achieve them myself. If just trusting in fate could lead me to where I wanted to get to.

I realize that this is kind of silly; fate or the universe will give you what you need regardless of whether you "want" it or not, I know. But it's a difficult situation that I feel that I can't positively affect through action on my part -- yet, I cling to hope that things could eventually go my way, somehow, some way. But giving in to fate is giving up 'hope', so like I said, my question is a little silly.
 
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bruce_g

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Hi all, and thanks, as usual, much food for thought. Just wanted to respond to Miakoda's questions...my question wasn't about surrendering responsibility for my actions, it was really wondering whether there was a possibility of my hopes being realized even if I gave up actively trying to achieve them myself. If just trusting in fate could lead me to where I wanted to get to.

I realize that this is kind of silly; fate or the universe will give you what you need regardless of whether you "want" it or not, I know. But it's a difficult situation that I feel that I can't positively affect through action on my part -- yet, I cling to hope that things could eventually go my way, somehow, some way. But giving in to fate is giving up 'hope', so like I said, my question is a little silly.

I don't think it's a silly question, but a difficult one. I think there's always something we are doing which affects our fate. Even our thoughts and feelings belong to fate, but not as though we play no part in it or are mere observers. Our choices are a creative component in our fate, and choices are driven by our thoughts, which drive our actions. This is expressed in 19.2, joint approach, from which everything is furthered. A passive approach (line 3) furthers nothing, while a thorough approach (line 4) is faultless, or seamless.

I’d say, do not abandon hope, and think abundantly.
 

mudpie

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I think it is a great question, not silly at all, and an important question......i.e

is it better/appropriate/helpful to attempt to make things happen the way we want, OR can we simply oversee our intention and allow it to happen?

I feel the Yi is saying yes to the latter.

19.2 you and Yi are looking at this together...good question
24.3 this is a lesson you have been repeatedly faced with...(aren't we all?)
36.4 the heart of the darkness is believing we need to control, rather than oversee
55 ...abundance and true understanding result from

in general, 19 > 55 is a resounding affirmative to your question. BE the result you want ( stongly unite with your intention in overseeing this) , DO only what you feel moved to do -19.4, no reckless moves -19.3, and HAVE the desired result/fruition 55
 
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bruce_g

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“36.4 >55 suggest the possibility that things could get a little overwhelming if you give up the option of making executive-type decisions. You could find yourself in "character building" situations.”

This has been slowly simmering on the back burner since Brad wrote it.

Mercury clarified his question: “it was really wondering whether there was a possibility of my hopes being realized even if I gave up actively trying to achieve them myself. If just trusting in fate could lead me to where I wanted to get to.”

I have been unable to separate ‘realizing hopes’ from ‘actively trying to achieve’. Things just happen – that’s true – but they don’t just happen without at least some initiative on our part. Hoping requires something to hope for, and that alone means not doing nothing.

Perhaps most succinct is Listener’s “BE the result you want.”
 

mudpie

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But giving in to fate is giving up 'hope', so like I said, my question is a little silly.

Thisis what I feel may be the 36.4 of the matter. ..this feeling that "giving in to fate" is giving up hope. But is fate something outside of us, do we need to wrestle with fate to get what we want? Or can we direct our sails with executive command and then allow for the wind to move us where we desire to go?
19.3 is about being complacent and careless. Underneath mercury's words is a kind of complacency....but it needn't be. NOt seeing any direct action to take right now doesnt mean you need to let go of the sails and let the boat hit the rocks. Keep your intention firmly in sight and when the moment comes to tack, you will know to act.

I have a friend who seems to materialize everything he needs and intends, he oversees his intentions with a firm desire but I notice that he never tries to "make" anything happen. He often says that to get attached to the outcome is sure failure.

Huang says of 19.4 "One at this place is in a perfect situation and is able to lead the one at the bottom by going forward with trust in harmony.

So I say like Bruce said originally Stay hopeful
 

willowfox

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I asked whether leaving something totally up to fate could lead to a desired outcome. I got 19.2.3.4 > 55."

Your answer does indeed suggest that you you leave this something up to fate and that you will be rewarded with success.
 

mercury

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Wow, a great range of repsonses and interpretations. Fascinating.

Part of my confusion, though, stems from methods of interpreting the changing lines...in this case, lines in the transitional hexagrams seemed to give a very different cast to the reading -- not necessarily one that didn't make sense, mind you -- but a very different one than suggested by the changing lines in hex 19 alone.

As far as leaving things to fate, the reading seems to indicate a positive outcome -- but would it be the one I'm hoping for? Maybe it could be something even better. Or just different.
 

willowfox

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Part of my confusion, though, stems from methods of interpreting the changing lines...in this case, lines in the transitional hexagrams seemed to give a very different cast to the reading -- not necessarily one that didn't make sense, mind you -- but a very different one than suggested by the changing lines in hex 19 alone.

Why are you bothering with these so called transitional lines when they have no substance in reality.
The lines that have substance are hex 19.2,3,4. Then take into account hex 55, that is all you need to do, no confusion.
 

dobro p

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Part of my confusion, though, stems from methods of interpreting the changing lines...in this case, lines in the transitional hexagrams seemed to give a very different cast to the reading -- not necessarily one that didn't make sense, mind you -- but a very different one than suggested by the changing lines in hex 19 alone.

As far as leaving things to fate, the reading seems to indicate a positive outcome -- but would it be the one I'm hoping for? Maybe it could be something even better. Or just different.

I don't do transitional hexagrams, so I won't comment on that.

As for the positive aspect of the reading: yes, it's positive. But think about this: you could have drawn a thousand or more other and different positive outcomes from the Yi in response to your question. You could have drawn 14.6, for instance, or 40.4, or 48.6 - do you see my point? But you didn't draw any of those, you drew Hex 19. So what is it about the meaning of Hex 19 that applies to your question? Well, what's the meaning of Hex 19? For me, it's got to do not so much with approach or nearing as with undertaking something in the sense of taking on responsibility for something and overseeing the process. It's a picture of active responsibility. Which seems to me to be distinctly at variance with letting things take care of themselves, which is what you were asking about, right?

It's as if you asked the Yi: Leave it up to fate? and the Yi responded: Don't be silly - take charge.
 

bradford

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Why are you bothering with these so called transitional lines when they have no substance in reality.

It might be a truer statement to make to say that the logic of this method escapes you.
Then you're not pretending to be omniscient.
 

willowfox

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It might be a truer statement to make to say that the logic of this method escapes you.
Then you're not pretending to be omniscient.

Not only does the logic escape me but the whole concept as well.:confused:
 

mercury

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Interesting! I'd gotten some interesting insights from trying transitional hexes but maybe have put too much stock in them...looking at things in that light, I'd like to ask Willowfox how she deals with multiple changing lines which seem to contradict or indicate different phases of a situation?

I've heard of different line positions representing different phases of time or the progress of a situation; has this worked well for anyone or are there other things I could look into?
 

bradford

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Not only does the logic escape me but the whole concept as well.

See - that sounds a lot wiser, and less cranky too!
In the first place, I have never once heard this method touted as an ultimate solution to the problem of multiple lines - only as something to try in addition to reading all the changing Yao Ci (line texts) in the Ben Gua (original hexagram). This is only one of many methods (that include even the Yilin, with a separate text for every possibility). And at least the Ben and Zhi Gua are the same as with other methods.
It really doesn't make many assumptions, and it only uses concepts that were around from the beginning (Early Zhou through the Zuozhuan texts). It doesn't draw upon anything that makes its first appearance in the Yinyang Jia (yinyang school), the Ten Wings, the Han Yiweishu (apocrypha) or the Xiangshu Jia (Image and Number School.
It makes only these assumptions:
1) That change happens from bottom to top, from zhen to hui, the same way that hexagrams progress in their construction and in the evolution of their analogies. But certainly the hexagram with all its changing lines may change in only a moment - the steps may be taken all at once. Then again, the change may only be in the direction of the Zhi Gua, but never go all the way. It might only be referring to the finger and not the moon.
2) That the changing line texts were written to represent the simple change of that particular line, that changes the original into a hexagram that is only one line apart. It is here, along this simple track, that the line text is most meaningful and most easily understood.
3) That multiple lines will usually introduce a high degree of ambivalence and ambiguity into the reading, and the conflicting meanings fight each other for dominance on the way to resolution. Transitional hexagrams avoid this problem entirely and yet get to the same outcome.
 

miakoda

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In my experience the transitional hexagram method provides a pathway through the changes. The transitional results and the original way of reading all of the lines work together. I've noticed that the original lines provide an explanation and expansion of the transitional's answers and can be used in conjunction with each other to expand the understanding of each line and lead you through the changes.

In Mercury's 19.2.3.4>55, it looks like this:

19.2 - an important connection (idea? concept? epiphany?) nears.

24.3 - you seek it urgently and it brings you urgently back to yourself, your feelings.
(19.3 - don't be complacent. There's more to do here.)

36.4 - you get the heart of the matter.
(19.4 - the culmination nears.)

55 - this leads to abundance and a true understanding.

The methods aren't mutually exclusive, but only serve to expand the way of using the Yi Jing. It's such an elegant system, it is hard to accept that it wouldn't have a workable method for reading multiple changing lines (but I only use the transitional method on 3 or more lines). They're a big pain and take a looooong time time to write out, but reading them is like moving from poetic but cryptic haiku to listening to someone speaking in complete sentences. It's like becoming conversational in a foreign language. My understanding of the Yi Jing has really been broadened by using transitional hexagrams.

Miakoda
 

mercury

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Miakoda, what you're saying really resonates with my own experience. I looked at the original lines again and they do indeed reflect the transitionals more closely than I'd thought...

I also think I put so much weight on the 55 that I neglected some of the nuances in the 19 lines, which seem to me to indicate a bit more volition on my part and not just leaving things totally to fate after all...or at least not to treat "fate" as something that we have no effect on ourselves.
 

bradford

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55 is sometimes overwhelming.

I was just about to say something on this too.
When we take the English translations of the hexagram names too seriously, as the core meaning, we're often asking for big misunderstandings.
Most folks jump to conclusions way too quickly on this one, and mistake it for the same kind of "Abundance" that new age folks wish for as they say their affirmations and twiddle their crystals.
Bruce is spot on here - it's usually about getting a lot more of abundance than you wanted or asked for. Sometimes even a dangerous amount.
 
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bruce_g

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I was just about to say something on this too.
When we take the English translations of the hexagram names too seriously, as the core meaning, we're often asking for big misunderstandings.
Most folks jump to conclusions way too quickly on this one, and mistake it for the same kind of "Abundance" that new age folks wish for as they say their affirmations and twiddle their crystals.
Bruce is spot on here - it's usually about getting a lot more of abundance than you wanted or asked for. Sometimes even a dangerous amount.

I almost added 'too much of a good thing', but on second thought, it isn't necessarily too much of a good or bad thing, just a very powerful or consuming thing.

This also is one that can give the impression of contradiction between the Judgment and change lines, since the Judgment appears to be absolutely positive and lines 2, 3, 4 and 6 imply injury or handicap.

Trivia: Two songs 55 reminds me of is Bruce Springsteen's Blinded By The Light and Jackson Browne's Doctor My Eyes.

The Judgment (and Brad, please check me on this one) seems to hold a secret, which is similar to that of 47, in that greatness enables moderation of both extremes.
 

bradford

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since the Judgment appears to be absolutely positive and lines 2, 3, 4 and 6 imply injury or handicap.
The Judgment (and Brad, please check me on this one) seems to hold a secret, which is similar to that of 47, in that greatness enables moderation of both extremes.

Or social handicaps or consequences. I dunno about the Tuan being all positive. Wu you, don't be anxious, implies a cause or reason for anxiety.

Trivia: Two songs 55 reminds me of is Bruce Springsteen's Blinded By The Light and Jackson Browne's Doctor My Eyes.

Good song choices. I get that.
55 also reminds me of the highest point of an acid trip, where everything is rushing at you, your models of reality are being disassembled and not replaced. Remember? - the time you were least inclined to talk with your father or the police? You know it's going to be more pleasant when this phase is past and things calm down a bit (the after-noon of the Tuan). And yet, when the emergency comes up, like when it dawns on you that you've accidentally started the house on fire, you can jump right on top of things, and get it all back under control again, regaining the focus and making the kind of command decisions that it talks about in the Da Xiang.
 
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bruce_g

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55 also reminds me of the highest point of an acid trip, where everything is rushing at you, your models of reality are being disassembled and not replaced. Remember? - the time you were least inclined to talk with your father or the police? You know it's going to be more pleasant when this phase is past and things calm down a bit (the after-noon of the Tuan). And yet, when the emergency comes up, like when it dawns on you that you've accidentally started the house on fire, you can jump right on top of things, and get it all back under control again, regaining the focus and making the kind of command decisions that it talks about in the Da Xiang.

I prolly would remember, if I didn't lose my memory. No, I know what you're saying. Calamity, an OMG! moment.

What I was thinking of with the positive Judgment had to do with the justice that the noble one administers. Like, talking to the police while peaking, then finding clarity and sobriety suddenly (adapting), during what could otherwise seem disastrous. There’s almost a supernatural sensation of self control, which saves the day. At least the potential clarity for that is present, but that requires screening off, discriminating, or just wearing shades. :cool:
 

bradford

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There’s almost a supernatural sensation of self control, which saves the day.

Well, at least the king attains this, so we oughtn't be concerned.
The Sun's only at noon for a short time.

I think this ability to focus is the whole key to this Gua, with all of those references
to polarized light and seeing the stars, or resolving things in the confusion.
 

miakoda

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After reading your descriptions, maybe I'm not too sorry to have missed the acid trip era....

It's interesting what you say about 55, even if I can't entirely relate to the context. My experience with 55 has been with coming closer to the larger power--the flow of the river of the tao. I find sometimes that the information given to me by the Yi Jing is so overwhelming that I break my right arm.... But still I welcome 55. I'm hoping to learn how to ride it.

Miakoda
 
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bruce_g

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Yes, the king. That’s a whole ‘nother thread, I guess.

Good to remember midday isn’t long-lived, yes.

This has reminded me of a funny story, or it was funny to me at any rate. I was supposed play a freebee showcase at a small club in NYC, called (of all things) The Magic Mushroom. It snowed that day and the streets of NJ were piled high with wet snow by early evening. I was unable to reach my manager to notify him that I wouldn’t be making it. I called my bass player and invited him over to write some new material, and suggested we ingest a hit of acid. He was game. About an hour into the trip, my manager called, saying, come hell or high water to get my butt down to the club, as he had some record execs showing up to hear me. Jim’s (bass player) face turned pale, when I said to pack his stuff, we’re bussing into NYC. No, no, no! His expression was priceless. So we trudge through the snow, dragging our equipment down to the bus stop (no way I could drive), and from the Port of Authority, hitched a cab to the club. Next to the stage, where we were setting up, was THE LOUDEST ice machine I’d ever heard. Totally lost about what songs to play or even what the words to the songs were, I pointed to the old song list, taped to our guitars, and off we went, accompanied every 10 minutes by the thunderous ice machine. Maybe it wasn’t really that loud, but it sure seemed it at the time; causing Jim to jump out of his skin each time it went off.

I have no idea how we got through that first set, except that the king had control – or what we commonly referred to as “being on auto pilot”. Jim went immediately to the bar to wuff down a couple glasses of wine, while I sat with my manager and his record exec buddies. Bob (my mgr) leaned over and whispered, “Something’s different tonight.” I almost fell off my chair laughing, and replied “You’re telling me?” He said “No, I mean in a good way.” “Bob”, I said, “you have no idea.”

We got a demo deal from Mercury Records off that gig. 55, yep, something like that.
 

bradford

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But still I welcome 55. I'm hoping to learn how to ride it.
Miakoda

That's a good way to put it - the surfer doesn't overpower the wave any more than the climber conquers the mountain. They simply find their optimum line of focus within the much bigger context.
 

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