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Multiple moving lines - Part 2
- Thread starter dobro p
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"Cherish the right values and doing the right things may not necessary change the course of the
development pattern, but it changes its contents." It is like a relationship that does not end with the unity of both sides but true love prevails. Or, one is not able to stop the terminal decline of a business but managed to cut loses and start anew. In both cases the "ultimate" course of the development of that "particular venture" may be somewhat decided but the values and seeds of future exploration prevail.
I notice that the basic ideas of Yi always voice down to simplicity. A relationship may get entangled and complicated, and the people involved may lose themselve.Retaining the awareness of the risk and error, one is able to act to withdraw when things do not workout well; and able to "react" to start anew when the time call for.
Perhaps it will be helpful to know the Chinese meaning of fate.
Thru years of usage of Yi, the Chinese likes to denote the concept of "border" or "limit" to something we call as "fate". Fate is neither deterministic nor it is a random kind of occurrence. When the situation do not render an immediate "connection" to "skip" the "border"
(where the development pattern dictates), the diviner is advised to retreat and to stay still or
inaction. When the "connection" is possible, the diviner is advised to put in sincere efforts.
My personal experience told me "connection" will only be established when we are engaging with the
processes. Connection may be in the physical level or in the spiritual plane (when we have got the right meaning). Do not belittle "connection" coz it is the roadmap for the liberation from a "border" of a particular venture, and you will be surprised how far it will bring you to.
development pattern, but it changes its contents." It is like a relationship that does not end with the unity of both sides but true love prevails. Or, one is not able to stop the terminal decline of a business but managed to cut loses and start anew. In both cases the "ultimate" course of the development of that "particular venture" may be somewhat decided but the values and seeds of future exploration prevail.
I notice that the basic ideas of Yi always voice down to simplicity. A relationship may get entangled and complicated, and the people involved may lose themselve.Retaining the awareness of the risk and error, one is able to act to withdraw when things do not workout well; and able to "react" to start anew when the time call for.
Perhaps it will be helpful to know the Chinese meaning of fate.
Thru years of usage of Yi, the Chinese likes to denote the concept of "border" or "limit" to something we call as "fate". Fate is neither deterministic nor it is a random kind of occurrence. When the situation do not render an immediate "connection" to "skip" the "border"
(where the development pattern dictates), the diviner is advised to retreat and to stay still or
inaction. When the "connection" is possible, the diviner is advised to put in sincere efforts.
My personal experience told me "connection" will only be established when we are engaging with the
processes. Connection may be in the physical level or in the spiritual plane (when we have got the right meaning). Do not belittle "connection" coz it is the roadmap for the liberation from a "border" of a particular venture, and you will be surprised how far it will bring you to.
Hi Yly2pg1,
Yes, I understand. No matter what you do, the train keeps on going down the tracks. Sometimes it's like that. You can't always get what you want. That can be confusing too, especially when Yi gives a favourable reading. Usually at those times emotions make everything so difficult. I found though, that if I follow the way as shown by Yi, even though I don't want to, it's better, and indeed sometimes a way is found.
On the other hand, perhaps a different man could have re-routed the train. Or even the same man at a different time might have been able to do more. But that's just speculation.
"relationship may get entangled and complicated, and the people involved may lose themselve"
I wonder how it goes when both people in a relationship use Yi to keep balanced. Would Yi advise both along similar lines, or could there be conflicting advice?
"Fate is neither deterministic nor it is a random kind of occurrence. "
I also see it as both. The trend is there, but random acts occur always.
Do you mean by "connection" as having influence on the matter? Because I would think, as long as you follow your tao, there is a "connection", even when receiving unfavourable hexes such as 12 or 33. One may have a "connection", but no influence.
The trick is to know what is your path, and stay on it.
Yes, I understand. No matter what you do, the train keeps on going down the tracks. Sometimes it's like that. You can't always get what you want. That can be confusing too, especially when Yi gives a favourable reading. Usually at those times emotions make everything so difficult. I found though, that if I follow the way as shown by Yi, even though I don't want to, it's better, and indeed sometimes a way is found.
On the other hand, perhaps a different man could have re-routed the train. Or even the same man at a different time might have been able to do more. But that's just speculation.
"relationship may get entangled and complicated, and the people involved may lose themselve"
I wonder how it goes when both people in a relationship use Yi to keep balanced. Would Yi advise both along similar lines, or could there be conflicting advice?
"Fate is neither deterministic nor it is a random kind of occurrence. "
I also see it as both. The trend is there, but random acts occur always.
Do you mean by "connection" as having influence on the matter? Because I would think, as long as you follow your tao, there is a "connection", even when receiving unfavourable hexes such as 12 or 33. One may have a "connection", but no influence.
The trick is to know what is your path, and stay on it.
ladyganesha
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On the topic of daily readings I would like to chime in here. I have been doing a daily reading for about 10 years now. I have kept them all in an ongoing set of journals. Over the long period that I have used the IChing, I have developed a feeling for the sage. Every morning when I wake up I look forward to the 15 or so minutes that I spend with the Sage as I throw the pennies for my thought for the day. Often when I get time at the end of the day, I pick up my IC journal and write a little something about that hexagram and line(s) in light of how it applies to the day's events. It seems to me that I become more intelligent when I am able to apply the filter of that day's reading to what happened. It helps to refine my insight and perception. It doesn't really matter if it works as an oracle or not, it only matters that I begin to better perceive the laws of nature that are so aptly expressed through the images of the hexagram's and the changing lines.
I have often chuckled to myself when I see events and situations taking place and I can say, "oh yeah, there is hexagram such in such and line such in such expressed to the tee!"
I think when we finally begin to see the events in our lives in light of the lessons that the ICHING champions, that is when we have truly learned its right use. In fact, often when I have used the IC as an oracle, I want to ask the sage why he didn't give me an answer that better fit the situation! For example, I might ask about someone and get an interesting answer from the IC, but time may play out where I find this person is involved in 'inferior things'. So I might ask the IC, why didn't you give me 58 line 2 when I asked about so in so? Why did the sage lead me on this wild goose chase?
Bottom line, I think that the daily readings help us to digest the immense wisdom of the IC in small chewable bites. That is how we learn it; by using it as an oracle. But it is not its accuracy as an oracle that is its core value, its the way that we subsequently develop a rich and meaningful relationship to the Sage.
To me the ICHING is a real back and forth dialogue with the Sage, and I feel so blessed to have that special friend so easy to contact, so honest, so worthwhile in my life.
Lady
I have often chuckled to myself when I see events and situations taking place and I can say, "oh yeah, there is hexagram such in such and line such in such expressed to the tee!"
I think when we finally begin to see the events in our lives in light of the lessons that the ICHING champions, that is when we have truly learned its right use. In fact, often when I have used the IC as an oracle, I want to ask the sage why he didn't give me an answer that better fit the situation! For example, I might ask about someone and get an interesting answer from the IC, but time may play out where I find this person is involved in 'inferior things'. So I might ask the IC, why didn't you give me 58 line 2 when I asked about so in so? Why did the sage lead me on this wild goose chase?
Bottom line, I think that the daily readings help us to digest the immense wisdom of the IC in small chewable bites. That is how we learn it; by using it as an oracle. But it is not its accuracy as an oracle that is its core value, its the way that we subsequently develop a rich and meaningful relationship to the Sage.
To me the ICHING is a real back and forth dialogue with the Sage, and I feel so blessed to have that special friend so easy to contact, so honest, so worthwhile in my life.
Lady
Lady
I really admire that. To understand that personal connection with the I Ching, something that with all my years I am still working on. It must be a very relaxing and peace inducing practice to feel, truly feel that connection. You said you are new here? I think you probably have a lot of great wisdom to share with us.
Gene
I really admire that. To understand that personal connection with the I Ching, something that with all my years I am still working on. It must be a very relaxing and peace inducing practice to feel, truly feel that connection. You said you are new here? I think you probably have a lot of great wisdom to share with us.
Gene
Pakua
I really don't know how to answer some of your questions. There is a level in which any answer I could give would be even if true, still totally false. I think the whole point is to begin to have a feel for the connection with the Sage, as Lady is saying she has developed. In a sense, wisdom is eternal, yet in another sense, a certain wisdom is only wisdom in the context of that time and that frame of experience. This is something that can never be taught. And even those who know it, understand it better the next day than the day before, but still don't understand it. Does that make any sense? There are times when the "Superior man hides his light and yet still shines." There is a sense in which this is always the case, yet there is a sense in which it is only the case under certain conditions, for example, when a good man is under the restraint of an evil ruler. These things are eternal and temporal, and one can only develop one's own inner light to know how it is eternal and how it is temporal. When the superior man receives hexagram 20, he/she is not so much being told to hide their light yet still shine. They are to give of their wisdom. So here you might think, this is not the case, to hide the light. Well, true, and yet, not true, for there is always something held back fit for only those who are ready to receive it. I don't know how to explain it. I don't know if it can be. You are going to need to stay in there, do your readings, and do your homework. And as hexagram 61 says, the answer ultimately comes to those of even a greater density. We all are of a greater density, don't get me wrong. It is only when the mind is prepared for a thing that it can receive a thing. And believe me, I am in a struggle every day, to ripen my mind, so I can receive the greater light. I am certainly not there. A wise man once told me, "if you think you are there, you are not."
Gene
I really don't know how to answer some of your questions. There is a level in which any answer I could give would be even if true, still totally false. I think the whole point is to begin to have a feel for the connection with the Sage, as Lady is saying she has developed. In a sense, wisdom is eternal, yet in another sense, a certain wisdom is only wisdom in the context of that time and that frame of experience. This is something that can never be taught. And even those who know it, understand it better the next day than the day before, but still don't understand it. Does that make any sense? There are times when the "Superior man hides his light and yet still shines." There is a sense in which this is always the case, yet there is a sense in which it is only the case under certain conditions, for example, when a good man is under the restraint of an evil ruler. These things are eternal and temporal, and one can only develop one's own inner light to know how it is eternal and how it is temporal. When the superior man receives hexagram 20, he/she is not so much being told to hide their light yet still shine. They are to give of their wisdom. So here you might think, this is not the case, to hide the light. Well, true, and yet, not true, for there is always something held back fit for only those who are ready to receive it. I don't know how to explain it. I don't know if it can be. You are going to need to stay in there, do your readings, and do your homework. And as hexagram 61 says, the answer ultimately comes to those of even a greater density. We all are of a greater density, don't get me wrong. It is only when the mind is prepared for a thing that it can receive a thing. And believe me, I am in a struggle every day, to ripen my mind, so I can receive the greater light. I am certainly not there. A wise man once told me, "if you think you are there, you are not."
Gene
"the train keeps on going down the tracks.
Sometimes it's like that. You can't always get what you want...
On the other hand, perhaps a different man could have re-routed the train.
Or even the same man at a different time might have been able to do more."
This is true! It is not speculation.
The "same event" may have different implication to each individual.For example in an organization, you may find a good engineer may not be a good "people" manager and vice versa.
But, given proper training and time to build up confidence and skills, he could do better later.
"I think when we finally begin to see the events in our lives in light of the lessons that the ICHING champions, that is when we have truly learned its right use. In fact, often when I have used the IC as an oracle, I want to ask the sage why he didn't give me an answer that better fit the situation!"
Lots of time, i find my mind not able to frame a clear question.
I have to wait for the Sage to clear it out.
I like to call the Sage - "the wise within" or "the inner voice".
I read a medical article talking about "the wise man within". That was about 15 years ago.
(Until today, i still keep this article)
A real blessing to have a companion within who guide you thru the journey of life.
Sometimes it's like that. You can't always get what you want...
On the other hand, perhaps a different man could have re-routed the train.
Or even the same man at a different time might have been able to do more."
This is true! It is not speculation.
The "same event" may have different implication to each individual.For example in an organization, you may find a good engineer may not be a good "people" manager and vice versa.
But, given proper training and time to build up confidence and skills, he could do better later.
"I think when we finally begin to see the events in our lives in light of the lessons that the ICHING champions, that is when we have truly learned its right use. In fact, often when I have used the IC as an oracle, I want to ask the sage why he didn't give me an answer that better fit the situation!"
Lots of time, i find my mind not able to frame a clear question.
I have to wait for the Sage to clear it out.
I like to call the Sage - "the wise within" or "the inner voice".
I read a medical article talking about "the wise man within". That was about 15 years ago.
(Until today, i still keep this article)
A real blessing to have a companion within who guide you thru the journey of life.
ladyganesha
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- Feb 1, 1973
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I think that the Sage can be seen as the 'higher power' of any religion or belief system. It is a force that mediates our smaller self with the vastness of creation and the unknowable Tao.
The treasure of the IC is how it teaches us to live the middle path successfully. It provides us with the bare truth of natural law, and helps us to make sense out of our existence as individuals.
Using the IC as an oracle is an exercise in seeing. The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully. The importance of the oracle is not that it gives us a clear view of the future so that we can have an upper hand or steer existence closer to the realization of our desires, but rather that it affords us practice in seeing natural law as it can be applied to any aspect of the external world.
Lady
The treasure of the IC is how it teaches us to live the middle path successfully. It provides us with the bare truth of natural law, and helps us to make sense out of our existence as individuals.
Using the IC as an oracle is an exercise in seeing. The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully. The importance of the oracle is not that it gives us a clear view of the future so that we can have an upper hand or steer existence closer to the realization of our desires, but rather that it affords us practice in seeing natural law as it can be applied to any aspect of the external world.
Lady
Hi Ladyganesha,
I have a technical question for you.
"I have often chuckled to myself when I see events and situations taking place and I can say, "oh yeah, there is hexagram such in such and line such in such expressed to the tee!"
Do you ever find yourself saying this several days after your daily reading? In other words, say you notice the event occurs on the Friday, and it seemed to apply to the reading you had done on the previous Monday?
This is one thing (among many!) that confuses me. If it's a daily reading, shouldn't the scope be finished at end of day? Especially since your mind has determined it wants a time frame of one day, not 3 days, not a week. Isn't part of the experience the mind's intent, in other words the intent should determine which hex comes up?
If/when you see this happening, how do you deal with it? Something interesting, but irrelevant? A stretch of the imagination, with no basis in reality? Indicating a need to focus the mind more tightly? Or....?
"The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully."
This seems to say that it doesn't matter which hex comes up, we can shape it however we want. That's a hard one to get my mind around.
I have a technical question for you.
"I have often chuckled to myself when I see events and situations taking place and I can say, "oh yeah, there is hexagram such in such and line such in such expressed to the tee!"
Do you ever find yourself saying this several days after your daily reading? In other words, say you notice the event occurs on the Friday, and it seemed to apply to the reading you had done on the previous Monday?
This is one thing (among many!) that confuses me. If it's a daily reading, shouldn't the scope be finished at end of day? Especially since your mind has determined it wants a time frame of one day, not 3 days, not a week. Isn't part of the experience the mind's intent, in other words the intent should determine which hex comes up?
If/when you see this happening, how do you deal with it? Something interesting, but irrelevant? A stretch of the imagination, with no basis in reality? Indicating a need to focus the mind more tightly? Or....?
"The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully."
This seems to say that it doesn't matter which hex comes up, we can shape it however we want. That's a hard one to get my mind around.
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Hi Lady
" I think that the Sage can be seen as the 'higher power' of
any religion or belief system. It is a force that mediates
our smaller self with the vastness of creation and the unknowable Tao."
Have you ever adked the Yi what it is and where it sits in the 'pantheon'?
I find it gives quite explicit answers...
BTW - I enjoy your posts - Greetings
" I think that the Sage can be seen as the 'higher power' of
any religion or belief system. It is a force that mediates
our smaller self with the vastness of creation and the unknowable Tao."
Have you ever adked the Yi what it is and where it sits in the 'pantheon'?
I find it gives quite explicit answers...
BTW - I enjoy your posts - Greetings
ladyganesha
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Hi Pakua,
You said, "...If it's a daily reading, shouldn't the scope be finished at end of day? ...in other words the intent should determine which hex comes up?"
This question reminds me of the line that says something like "firm as a rock... what need of a whole day?... the superior man knows the seeds..." The daily reading plants the seeds, and it is not smart to demand the universe produce its goods for you within the limits you impose! This is (grin) subtle arrogance.
I would like to talk (diverge I am afraid) on the topic of subtle arrogance. This is what, I have come to believe, lies very close to total enlightenment, nirvana, samadhi, satori or whatever you call it. Forgive my wordy digression here. If you look at the Book of Job in the Christian Bible, the main point of it is that Job, a good guy by anyone's view, had a silent core belief that he 'deserves justice'. He believed by doing good works and living according to the law of God, he was 'entittled'. In the Book of Job, God and Satan have a bet and they try to drive Job into cursing the name of God. Job wouldn't give in, but came to the point where he begged God to explain "why" he was suffering the enormous misfortunes that had come his way. The ultimate answer for Job was when he saw GOD in its purest form. Job then realized truth beyond reason and logic and justice. Beyond the mind.
When Jesus was hanging on the cross, after just being whipped and tortured and humiliated beyond belief, and he just hung there untill finally he cried out "father in heaven, why hast thou forsaken me?" Jesus must have felt that after such an act of total surrender, he deserved to be freed from the rest of the pain. Again, justice was the last notion that needed to be transcended before full enlightenment could be achieved.
In the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, The lord/savior Krishna is in a battle chariot with a great warrior named Arjuna. Arjuna must meet his own blood kin on the battlefield and he tells Krishna he would rather die than take the lives of his own blood kin. He wants to know "WHY" and he is pissed that it "isn't fair". Again, the notion of justice and the entittlement to it, were the final lessons that Arjuna had to experience, and he too, like Job, was given the sight of GOD in its purest form and never asked "why me?" again.
Living without the notion that things 'should' be a certain way is what allows us to freely flow with the Tao. The outer world does not need to conform to our notions of logic and balance. We must learn to conform to the constitution of the universe, and the IC is the primer book on learning what those laws are.
When you do your daily IChing reading, the seeds of that hexagram are planted in your consciousness. What sprouts from that will come. But how the plant sprouts, what fruit it will bear and how it will continue to grow depends on the soil of your consciousness and how you, the gardener, attends to it.
When I said "The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully." You answered with "This seems to say that it doesn't matter which hex comes up, we can shape it however we want. That's a hard one to get my mind around".
I guess I am daring to say, at the risk that you won't like me anymore, that this again is subtle arrogance. You must see GOD in its purest form, and never again will you think of shaping the outer world to your own incomplete formula for life. Hex. 2 line 2 speaks about the fact that nature is already equipped, and we don't need to make nature any different, but rather, we need to conform our own self to the constitution of the universe; to natural law. This is the only way we can bend and flow like water, like the Tao.
Lady
You said, "...If it's a daily reading, shouldn't the scope be finished at end of day? ...in other words the intent should determine which hex comes up?"
This question reminds me of the line that says something like "firm as a rock... what need of a whole day?... the superior man knows the seeds..." The daily reading plants the seeds, and it is not smart to demand the universe produce its goods for you within the limits you impose! This is (grin) subtle arrogance.
I would like to talk (diverge I am afraid) on the topic of subtle arrogance. This is what, I have come to believe, lies very close to total enlightenment, nirvana, samadhi, satori or whatever you call it. Forgive my wordy digression here. If you look at the Book of Job in the Christian Bible, the main point of it is that Job, a good guy by anyone's view, had a silent core belief that he 'deserves justice'. He believed by doing good works and living according to the law of God, he was 'entittled'. In the Book of Job, God and Satan have a bet and they try to drive Job into cursing the name of God. Job wouldn't give in, but came to the point where he begged God to explain "why" he was suffering the enormous misfortunes that had come his way. The ultimate answer for Job was when he saw GOD in its purest form. Job then realized truth beyond reason and logic and justice. Beyond the mind.
When Jesus was hanging on the cross, after just being whipped and tortured and humiliated beyond belief, and he just hung there untill finally he cried out "father in heaven, why hast thou forsaken me?" Jesus must have felt that after such an act of total surrender, he deserved to be freed from the rest of the pain. Again, justice was the last notion that needed to be transcended before full enlightenment could be achieved.
In the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, The lord/savior Krishna is in a battle chariot with a great warrior named Arjuna. Arjuna must meet his own blood kin on the battlefield and he tells Krishna he would rather die than take the lives of his own blood kin. He wants to know "WHY" and he is pissed that it "isn't fair". Again, the notion of justice and the entittlement to it, were the final lessons that Arjuna had to experience, and he too, like Job, was given the sight of GOD in its purest form and never asked "why me?" again.
Living without the notion that things 'should' be a certain way is what allows us to freely flow with the Tao. The outer world does not need to conform to our notions of logic and balance. We must learn to conform to the constitution of the universe, and the IC is the primer book on learning what those laws are.
When you do your daily IChing reading, the seeds of that hexagram are planted in your consciousness. What sprouts from that will come. But how the plant sprouts, what fruit it will bear and how it will continue to grow depends on the soil of your consciousness and how you, the gardener, attends to it.
When I said "The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully." You answered with "This seems to say that it doesn't matter which hex comes up, we can shape it however we want. That's a hard one to get my mind around".
I guess I am daring to say, at the risk that you won't like me anymore, that this again is subtle arrogance. You must see GOD in its purest form, and never again will you think of shaping the outer world to your own incomplete formula for life. Hex. 2 line 2 speaks about the fact that nature is already equipped, and we don't need to make nature any different, but rather, we need to conform our own self to the constitution of the universe; to natural law. This is the only way we can bend and flow like water, like the Tao.
Lady
Hi Ladyganesha,
I'm thinking we each may be speaking with a different focus. I'm coming from a more technical frame of mind.
"it is not smart to demand the universe produce its goods for you within the limits you impose!"
I kind of see your point, but it's not that I'm demanding anything... I'm wondering how you can do a "daily" reading when you don't know how long the "day" is? How can one do a "yearly" reading when you don't know if the "year" lasts for 6 months, 12 months, 20 months?
Or are you saying, it doesn't matter? Do the reading, live the day, then forget about it?
But what if you're analytical and technical like me, who likes to go back and analyze things to see what happened and how things played out... how do you reconcile things if you don't have a time frame to categorize things?
"The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully"
Let me re-phrase my question. Let's say I'm asking about a situation. You seem to be saying, I might get 55.6 or 1.5 or 23.4. It seems that you're saying, any one of those 3 responses might be valid and correct for the situation. And yet, subjectively, only one will "feel" right, since they all three describe very different situations and prescribe very different courses of action. How could you apply a 23.4 interpretation successfully to a situation that really is a 1.5? You would be doing all the wrong things, wouldn't you?
I'm thinking we each may be speaking with a different focus. I'm coming from a more technical frame of mind.
"it is not smart to demand the universe produce its goods for you within the limits you impose!"
I kind of see your point, but it's not that I'm demanding anything... I'm wondering how you can do a "daily" reading when you don't know how long the "day" is? How can one do a "yearly" reading when you don't know if the "year" lasts for 6 months, 12 months, 20 months?
Or are you saying, it doesn't matter? Do the reading, live the day, then forget about it?
But what if you're analytical and technical like me, who likes to go back and analyze things to see what happened and how things played out... how do you reconcile things if you don't have a time frame to categorize things?
"The fact is that every hexagram can be applied to any given event or situation successfully"
Let me re-phrase my question. Let's say I'm asking about a situation. You seem to be saying, I might get 55.6 or 1.5 or 23.4. It seems that you're saying, any one of those 3 responses might be valid and correct for the situation. And yet, subjectively, only one will "feel" right, since they all three describe very different situations and prescribe very different courses of action. How could you apply a 23.4 interpretation successfully to a situation that really is a 1.5? You would be doing all the wrong things, wouldn't you?
C
candid
Guest
I can fit my feet into any shoes bigger than my foot. And since each hexagram is very big, any one of them can find application. But only one actually fits.
cal val
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Candid...
Excellent!
Ms. Ganesha...
I'd love to discuss the meaning of arrogance with you because I really have a problem seeing it applied to anyone with any degree of wisdom. It's such an unwise emotion.
So I started a new thread here -----> http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/786/2733.html?1098203293
Love,
Val
Excellent!
Ms. Ganesha...
I'd love to discuss the meaning of arrogance with you because I really have a problem seeing it applied to anyone with any degree of wisdom. It's such an unwise emotion.
So I started a new thread here -----> http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/786/2733.html?1098203293
Love,
Val
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Pakua - You know when to leave a party without looking at your watch?
Yi time is the same.
--K
Yi time is the same.
--K
C
candid
Guest
Who let the sage in?
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heheheh - In my dreams
Candid, your metaphors are always so good - they help understanding occur. Now I understand why Chris Lofting kept saying every hex would work, but there was always a best fit.
Just a small point, but if they are all so big, what about the one that fits? Is it the same size?
If I can change the metaphor, it would be like saying, you can use any tool to slice your bread - you can use a knife, you can use a screwdriver, you can use a ruler, a hammer, a jig-saw.... Obviously that's literally correct, but no one would do it, because there are difficulties with all except the knife. If you went around saying that, people would look at you funny, because it's quite a stretch. So in reality, it's not true.
Isn't it the same with saying, every hex can apply, except one is the best? You could stretch them to fit, but is that really the best way?
Just a small point, but if they are all so big, what about the one that fits? Is it the same size?
If I can change the metaphor, it would be like saying, you can use any tool to slice your bread - you can use a knife, you can use a screwdriver, you can use a ruler, a hammer, a jig-saw.... Obviously that's literally correct, but no one would do it, because there are difficulties with all except the knife. If you went around saying that, people would look at you funny, because it's quite a stretch. So in reality, it's not true.
Isn't it the same with saying, every hex can apply, except one is the best? You could stretch them to fit, but is that really the best way?
C
candid
Guest
Pakua,
First, I don?t recall hearing Chris say there was always a best fit. As I understood him, literally any hexagram will provide the answer to any question, and the mind will make it fit perfectly.
This is not what I?m saying and it isn?t as I see it. I?m saying that each hexagram contains images big enough (or, exaggerated, as Chris called it) to learn something from it, no matter when it is studied. This is knowledge and general wisdom, which is always nourishing and useful.
The perfect fit is when the timing matches the subject?s condition. That makes the lesson become specific to the question, or to the questioner?s subjective experience.
Picture a classroom where the teacher is teaching geography. It is all good information and helps overall understanding. But when someone asks ?where are my shoes?? it doesn?t help to know that they are located somewhere in the continental United States, even if it?s true.
First, I don?t recall hearing Chris say there was always a best fit. As I understood him, literally any hexagram will provide the answer to any question, and the mind will make it fit perfectly.
This is not what I?m saying and it isn?t as I see it. I?m saying that each hexagram contains images big enough (or, exaggerated, as Chris called it) to learn something from it, no matter when it is studied. This is knowledge and general wisdom, which is always nourishing and useful.
The perfect fit is when the timing matches the subject?s condition. That makes the lesson become specific to the question, or to the questioner?s subjective experience.
Picture a classroom where the teacher is teaching geography. It is all good information and helps overall understanding. But when someone asks ?where are my shoes?? it doesn?t help to know that they are located somewhere in the continental United States, even if it?s true.
martin
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I think it's more like 64 windows.
Each of these 64 windows reveals a different aspect of the situation.
If the Yi says "hexagram 37", for instance, it says in effect "look at it in this way, through window 37, that will help."
The intelligence behind the Yi looks through all 64 windows simultaneously. As if it looks through 64 eyes.
For that intelligence 37 is not the best window. What it see through other windows is not more or less relevant or true than what it sees through 37.
But we have only two eyes, so they make a selection for us and give us one or two hexagrams. One or two fragments of the truth.
The complete truth, within the limits of the Yi, is a 65 dimensional (number of eyes + 1) object that is far beyond us.
Each of these 64 windows reveals a different aspect of the situation.
If the Yi says "hexagram 37", for instance, it says in effect "look at it in this way, through window 37, that will help."
The intelligence behind the Yi looks through all 64 windows simultaneously. As if it looks through 64 eyes.
For that intelligence 37 is not the best window. What it see through other windows is not more or less relevant or true than what it sees through 37.
But we have only two eyes, so they make a selection for us and give us one or two hexagrams. One or two fragments of the truth.
The complete truth, within the limits of the Yi, is a 65 dimensional (number of eyes + 1) object that is far beyond us.
Candid,
Chris used to urge people to go to his website and answer his 6 questions. I thought his reason for doing so was because the resulting hexagrams would be a much better fit than simply throwing coins. I had the feeling he thought throwing coins gave a more random result?
"I?m saying that each hexagram contains images big enough (or, exaggerated, as Chris called it) to learn something from it, no matter when it is studied. This is knowledge and general wisdom, which is always nourishing and useful. "
Ok, I can see that. I had thought that what was said meant, it didn't matter which one came up, since they could all apply, sort of like my friend who always quotes Bible verses to justify anything, even contradicting previous justifications.
It doesn't seem to be as true when you get down to the line level though, does it? How could you interpret 23.4 to fit a 1.5 situation? Or vice versa? One says stop, the other says go.
Chris used to urge people to go to his website and answer his 6 questions. I thought his reason for doing so was because the resulting hexagrams would be a much better fit than simply throwing coins. I had the feeling he thought throwing coins gave a more random result?
"I?m saying that each hexagram contains images big enough (or, exaggerated, as Chris called it) to learn something from it, no matter when it is studied. This is knowledge and general wisdom, which is always nourishing and useful. "
Ok, I can see that. I had thought that what was said meant, it didn't matter which one came up, since they could all apply, sort of like my friend who always quotes Bible verses to justify anything, even contradicting previous justifications.
It doesn't seem to be as true when you get down to the line level though, does it? How could you interpret 23.4 to fit a 1.5 situation? Or vice versa? One says stop, the other says go.
Kevin,
What if you went with the intent of staying for two hours?
An hour and a half, or two and a half, both seem reasonable.
But if you go with that intent, and you find yourself still there after 6 hours?????? What's going on? Something wrong with your intent?
What if you went with the intent of staying for two hours?
An hour and a half, or two and a half, both seem reasonable.
But if you go with that intent, and you find yourself still there after 6 hours?????? What's going on? Something wrong with your intent?
ladyganesha
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Hi Pakua and everyone,
We all have our own personal relationship to the Sage. Every thing and person that we encounter in our reality is an aspect of the Sage. I often perceive people as holding me back, and then I refocus and realize that the Sage is holding me back for now. Then, the irritation of it becomes a sweet lesson. But that is just me.
But lets take Pakua's examples: ".. I might get 55.6 or 1.5 or 23.4. It seems that you're saying, any one of those 3 responses might be valid and correct for the situation".
I am saying that all three can be correct for the same situation. Lets say I am talking about going back to school. 55 line 6 may indicate that I am going to be 'cut off' from the common folk because of my uppity new goals. Hexagram 1 line 5 may also be true in that this new venture will be an opportunity to express myself creatively and 23 line 4 may indicate that although I am able to express a side of me that will be positive, I must accept that misfortune is inevitable because perhaps my finances will suffer, or the alienation from others (55 line 6) will cause me to be targeted in a negative way by 'the gang'.
Any action we take extends out from us in every direction. That means that it must have a series of negative, positive and neutral reactions from the cosmos. It is very narrow thinking to believe that a certain action we take will stop at only one consequence and only have one puny little effect on the world!
There is a zen story that sort of flows like this; a young man had an accident and lost his leg, that was bad, but then came war and he didn't have to go, that was good, but then the war took his home because he couldn't defend it and that was bad, but then, because he lost his leg, he had been taught to read and write at the temple and that was good because now he could be employed in a high office, but then.....
So was it good or bad that he lost his leg? It was 55 lin 6, AND 1 line 5 AND 23 line 4 AND ...
Lady
We all have our own personal relationship to the Sage. Every thing and person that we encounter in our reality is an aspect of the Sage. I often perceive people as holding me back, and then I refocus and realize that the Sage is holding me back for now. Then, the irritation of it becomes a sweet lesson. But that is just me.
But lets take Pakua's examples: ".. I might get 55.6 or 1.5 or 23.4. It seems that you're saying, any one of those 3 responses might be valid and correct for the situation".
I am saying that all three can be correct for the same situation. Lets say I am talking about going back to school. 55 line 6 may indicate that I am going to be 'cut off' from the common folk because of my uppity new goals. Hexagram 1 line 5 may also be true in that this new venture will be an opportunity to express myself creatively and 23 line 4 may indicate that although I am able to express a side of me that will be positive, I must accept that misfortune is inevitable because perhaps my finances will suffer, or the alienation from others (55 line 6) will cause me to be targeted in a negative way by 'the gang'.
Any action we take extends out from us in every direction. That means that it must have a series of negative, positive and neutral reactions from the cosmos. It is very narrow thinking to believe that a certain action we take will stop at only one consequence and only have one puny little effect on the world!
There is a zen story that sort of flows like this; a young man had an accident and lost his leg, that was bad, but then came war and he didn't have to go, that was good, but then the war took his home because he couldn't defend it and that was bad, but then, because he lost his leg, he had been taught to read and write at the temple and that was good because now he could be employed in a high office, but then.....
So was it good or bad that he lost his leg? It was 55 lin 6, AND 1 line 5 AND 23 line 4 AND ...
Lady
Kevin,
I just re-read my previous post, and realized it might be mis-construed. Sometimes I rush and consequently write without dotting my i's and crossing my t's.
I meant to say, if one finds himself staying for 6 hours when the intent was to stay only two, what kind of influence could that be? Would that indicate an issue with one's intent when first contemplating the thing?
I just re-read my previous post, and realized it might be mis-construed. Sometimes I rush and consequently write without dotting my i's and crossing my t's.
I meant to say, if one finds himself staying for 6 hours when the intent was to stay only two, what kind of influence could that be? Would that indicate an issue with one's intent when first contemplating the thing?
C
candid
Guest
Hi Lady,
I like your examples of arrogance and transcendence as expressed by Job, Jesus and Arjuna. Right or wrong, these guys put it all on the line for their sense of justice: a real all or nothing proposition. That?s pretty arrogant, far as I?m concerned. I don?t know how subtle it is though.
It?s also interesting that all three heroes brought the whole thing on themselves:
Job said ?that which I?ve feared most has come upon me.?
Jesus knew full well that causing a gathering around him on the Sabbath would certainly infuriate the religious and political powers, endangering his life. And when he stood before Pilate, refusing to answer the prosecution: that was extreme arrogance. He understood his fate before entering the city.
Arjuna felt entitled to rule the kingdom, and he amassed his army to war against the opponent, including his favorite teacher, Drona, and his beloved grand uncle, Bhishma, and many other relatives and friends. His pride brought him face to face against his family, and his guru. He, through his pride, brought this battle upon himself. Only through transcendence, his Krishna mind, could he carry out his destiny.
Heroes are the most arrogant of victors.
I like your examples of arrogance and transcendence as expressed by Job, Jesus and Arjuna. Right or wrong, these guys put it all on the line for their sense of justice: a real all or nothing proposition. That?s pretty arrogant, far as I?m concerned. I don?t know how subtle it is though.
It?s also interesting that all three heroes brought the whole thing on themselves:
Job said ?that which I?ve feared most has come upon me.?
Jesus knew full well that causing a gathering around him on the Sabbath would certainly infuriate the religious and political powers, endangering his life. And when he stood before Pilate, refusing to answer the prosecution: that was extreme arrogance. He understood his fate before entering the city.
Arjuna felt entitled to rule the kingdom, and he amassed his army to war against the opponent, including his favorite teacher, Drona, and his beloved grand uncle, Bhishma, and many other relatives and friends. His pride brought him face to face against his family, and his guru. He, through his pride, brought this battle upon himself. Only through transcendence, his Krishna mind, could he carry out his destiny.
Heroes are the most arrogant of victors.
C
candid
Guest
PS: I also think the correlation you?ve made with the I Ching is brilliant.
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Hi Pakua
?What if you went with the intent of staying for two hours?
An hour and a half, or two and a half, both seem reasonable.
But if you go with that intent, and you find yourself still there after 6 hours?????? What's going on? Something wrong with your intent??
I am maybe not the one to answer this? chuckles? my intent tends to vary, hopefully to be in accord with the time ? on a good day.
If I intended to go to the party for whatever time and say met someone I really want to spend more time with then I would have expected the Yi to have picked that up before I went and when I asked it a question.
?What if you went with the intent of staying for two hours?
An hour and a half, or two and a half, both seem reasonable.
But if you go with that intent, and you find yourself still there after 6 hours?????? What's going on? Something wrong with your intent??
I am maybe not the one to answer this? chuckles? my intent tends to vary, hopefully to be in accord with the time ? on a good day.
If I intended to go to the party for whatever time and say met someone I really want to spend more time with then I would have expected the Yi to have picked that up before I went and when I asked it a question.
Hi Ladyganesha,
"I am saying that all three can be correct for the same situation."
In that case I don't understand how Yi can be used for divination. And yet, of course we know it can.
Let's use your example of planning on going to school. We ask Yi if we should proceed with this plan. It would make a huge difference if we got a reading that clearly said go ahead, or if we got one that clearly said stop. Perhaps you could pick the lines for a clear stop and go (with my limited experience I had chosen 23.4 and 1.5, but perhaps there are better examples).
In this case, only one of the two readings could be appropriate - either to proceed or to stop.
I think I understand your point as it applies to a "wisdom" type reading, as Gene was describing it earlier, but not for a divination "should I?" situation.
" 23 line 4 may indicate that although I am able to express a side of me that will be positive, I must accept that misfortune is inevitable because perhaps my finances will suffer"
I could never proceed with something, knowing that misfortune was inevitable. Surely it would be better to wait until the time was more propitious?
"I am saying that all three can be correct for the same situation."
In that case I don't understand how Yi can be used for divination. And yet, of course we know it can.
Let's use your example of planning on going to school. We ask Yi if we should proceed with this plan. It would make a huge difference if we got a reading that clearly said go ahead, or if we got one that clearly said stop. Perhaps you could pick the lines for a clear stop and go (with my limited experience I had chosen 23.4 and 1.5, but perhaps there are better examples).
In this case, only one of the two readings could be appropriate - either to proceed or to stop.
I think I understand your point as it applies to a "wisdom" type reading, as Gene was describing it earlier, but not for a divination "should I?" situation.
" 23 line 4 may indicate that although I am able to express a side of me that will be positive, I must accept that misfortune is inevitable because perhaps my finances will suffer"
I could never proceed with something, knowing that misfortune was inevitable. Surely it would be better to wait until the time was more propitious?
Hi Pakua
I missed a lot of the previous conversation, and don't have time to go back and read it. I do want to say however, that it is important to look at why we should go ahead, or not go ahead. Often when it says, for example, "good fortune," it is only good fortune when we are following the mandate of the hexagram as a whole. Sometimes if we read, go ahead, it may only mean go ahead when the overall meaning of the line has been worked out in our daily experience. I have had examples in the past in my own readings where I acknowledged only the fortune or misfortune part, and good fortune turned out to be misfortune when the rest of the meaning of the line was ignored. In multiple changing lines it is very, very important that we understand the meaning of the hexagram as a whole. It is only when we have satisfied the mandate of the hexagram as a whole that fortune, misfortune, go ahead, stop, becomes meaningful. When we understand the context, then often two contradictory lines are not so contradictory.
Gene
I missed a lot of the previous conversation, and don't have time to go back and read it. I do want to say however, that it is important to look at why we should go ahead, or not go ahead. Often when it says, for example, "good fortune," it is only good fortune when we are following the mandate of the hexagram as a whole. Sometimes if we read, go ahead, it may only mean go ahead when the overall meaning of the line has been worked out in our daily experience. I have had examples in the past in my own readings where I acknowledged only the fortune or misfortune part, and good fortune turned out to be misfortune when the rest of the meaning of the line was ignored. In multiple changing lines it is very, very important that we understand the meaning of the hexagram as a whole. It is only when we have satisfied the mandate of the hexagram as a whole that fortune, misfortune, go ahead, stop, becomes meaningful. When we understand the context, then often two contradictory lines are not so contradictory.
Gene