New member intro & #61

[august moon]

Hi, folks! I've consulted the I Ching off & on over the years, interpreting the divinations using a book I used to sell in a teahouse I owned. Sometimes the coins turned up relevant readings, sometimes not. Sometimes I would get that one (I forget which one) which said, basically, "Stop asking already -- you got your answer last time!"

James, my boyfriend, taking a job in another city which will also require a lot of traveling. I am starting a new business and will be busy myself, yet seeing enough of each other has always been difficult, even before these recent changes. Being a very in the moment, here & now kind of person, he is very much where he is wherever that is, and despite email and phone, a mental distance sets in. A good thing, very zen and I really appreciate it when he is with me. But it's hard on one's lover when she doesn't happen to be there and then! Our times together are superb, our connection amazing and we do definitely love each other very deeply. But moving to another state...! We both vacillate between throwing in the towel and hanging in there.

A few days ago, I threw 61, Zhong Fu, unchanging. The question was, "Should I hold onto James, or should I give up?" Faithfulness and Sincerity. Inner Truth. It really echoed what I feel in my heart, what I know in my heart, and I felt that I should hang on. Some interpretations say it is about being faithful to one's Inner Truth. The question is, is my niggling doubt the Inner truth, or is that pilot light of love the Inner Truth? My first response was that I know what I know, I know what I feel, I believe in us, and moreover, the whole text was so specific and on the mark. Even the shape of the hexagram resonated with me. Yet, is the doubt that it can work out an even deeper truth -- one that I am avoiding? The last line is said to portend danger. What does this mean?

 

[stevev]

I think I read ...

something in the rule book about "If you love them let them go and if they love you they'll come back". Alternatively you could go for rule 61b "Hold on as tight as you can and never let go". I could never work out which one to apply in each particular circumstance, good luck.

 

[august moon]

Yes, the whole "Did I give it enough of a good ol' college try or did I give up too soon?" is a quandary in relationships. I was struck with the absolute specificity of the hexagram, its solid form, and the unchanging lines. I really did feel strengthened by it, and yet and yet...am I just fooling myself that we can survive a long distance relationship? If he were more communicative when he is away, it would not be that hard -- email and phone and skype are just so easy and cheap/free. It is the fading out of connection that undermines my faith in us.

But the last line -- "The cock's crow reaches the sky. This portends danger," -- what does it mean?

 

[RindaR]

If you had drawn a changing line for the 6th line, that line would be meaningful As it is, your answer lies within the body of the hexagram itself without reference to the following lines.

The hexagram may be telling you use this opportunity to note how he behaves when he believes he is in total control, when there are no apparent consequences to misbehavior. Then you will see him as he is, his inner truth, and you will have no trouble deciding what you want to do.

What Stevev said....

 

[august moon]

Misbehaviour? It isn't misbehaviour -- it's workaholism and distance. Well, and not calling/emailing. If I have a rival, it is the job and the Moment (being there now).

 

[RindaR]

I didn't mean anything specific by the term misbehavior, sorry if that stung.

It sounds like it will be difficult to keep a sense of relationship going if his being "in the moment" precludes a commitment to his part of that process. I'm not trying to say that it will do so, just wondering if that's where the rub comes for you and imagining how I might feel in a similar circumstance.

Rinda

 

[bruce_g]

61 throws one back on themselves, and withholding judgments until time reveals more. The belief expressed in 61 is not in another but in ones self, calling upon ones own inner resources. Throwing in the towel wouldn’t be acting from your inner truth, pining away wouldn’t be acting from your inner truth. So, neither holding on nor giving up is the result of inner truth.

Another feature of 61 is that of being in synch with the inner truth of another, but that happens only when the other is also in touch with their inner truth. While this doesn’t guarantee a ‘live happily ever after’ outcome, it does guarantee that mutual contact and influence can endure. Relationships which are based on 61 can often last a lifetime, or perhaps longer.

 

[august moon]

I didn't mean anything specific by the term misbehavior, sorry if that stung.

It sounds like it will be difficult to keep a sense of relationship going if his being "in the moment" precludes a commitment to his part of that process. I'm not trying to say that it will do so, just wondering if that's where the rub comes for you and imagining how I might feel in a similar circumstance.

Rinda

Yes, that is the rub.

 

[august moon]

61 throws one back on themselves, and withholding judgments until time reveals more. The belief expressed in 61 is not in another but in ones self, calling upon ones own inner resources. Throwing in the towel wouldn’t be acting from your inner truth, pining away wouldn’t be acting from your inner truth. So, neither holding on nor giving up is the result of inner truth.

Another feature of 61 is that of being in synch with the inner truth of another, but that happens only when the other is also in touch with their inner truth. While this doesn’t guarantee a ‘live happily ever after’ outcome, it does guarantee that mutual contact and influence can endure. Relationships which are based on 61 can often last a lifetime, or perhaps longer.

Food for thought, thank you!

 

[bruce_g]

Food for thought, thank you!

You're welcome, and please pardon my manners. Hello and welcome!

 

[august moon]

If you had drawn a changing line for the 6th line, that line would be meaningful As it is, your answer lies within the body of the hexagram itself without reference to the following lines.

The hexagram may be telling you use this opportunity to note how he behaves when he believes he is in total control, when there are no apparent consequences to misbehavior. Then you will see him as he is, his inner truth, and you will have no trouble deciding what you want to do.

What Stevev said....

I'm just noting your reference to the "following lines" and "the body of the hexagram itself"... Is not the 6th line a part of the hexagram itself? Where is the body, and where are the following lines?

 

[willowfox]

"A few days ago, I threw 61, unchanging. The question was, "Should I hold onto James, or should I give up?"

Hex 61 is about being true to oneself, so if you have deep and permanent bonds between you which are based on truth, then by all means stick with James, true love.

 

[willowfox]

I'm just noting your reference to the "following lines" and "the body of the hexagram itself"... Is not the 6th line a part of the hexagram itself? Where is the body, and where are the following lines?

You received hex 61 unchanging, so you read only the judgement and the image, nothing else, do not read the lines. The sixth line is not part of the judgement or image, it is completely separate.
If you had received a moving line in hex 61, then you would have read that moving line(s) only, and then the judgement and image of the second hex.


If you had received hex 61.6 then the second hex would be hex 60 ( no lines are read here ).

 

[august moon]

I see. Okay, so what is the part about pigs & fishes? My book says "Use a pig and a fish for the offering", while other interpretations I have come across on the web talk about how pigs and fishes are stubborn...?

And what is the definition of "crossing the Great Stream" -- or is that a metaphor for whatever one is asking about?

 

[willowfox]

I see. Okay, so what is the part about pigs & fishes? My book says "Use a pig and a fish for the offering", while other interpretations I have come across on the web talk about how pigs and fishes are stubborn...?

And what is the definition of "crossing the Great Stream" -- or is that a metaphor for whatever one is asking about?

Pigs and fishes are creatures that are very hard to influence with the truth of the situation, so here it means that your boyfriend is a pigheaded guy who when faced with the reality of the situation does not see it straight away, but needs your influence, your love, to show him what he is missing out on. If your bond is based on true love, then your relationship will win over every obstacle.
"To cross the great water", would mean for you to go chase him up across the state divide.

The image tells you to think about him and your realtionship very, very carefully before deciding what action to take, so as not to punish unduly.

 

[imbue]

Hello August Moon, (welcome) 61 for your question is almost like asking a yes or no question in the light of how you personally feel, a no problem answer for you it seems. You love him. Perhaps another go at asking another similar question is in order. Like what will the seperation do to our love? Or something on this line if the concern is deep and your after an definative answer this may be the way to the truth?

 

[Trojina]

Maybe 61 is encouraging you here to go with what is really your truth about this situation. Seems to me you've said you're not sure you can handle the lack of consistent contact,emails, phone calls etc when he is away. Hmm you know I think you're right it would be hard to handle. I would find it hard to handle because deep down I'd know that 'being an in the moment sort of guy' is not a valid reason for not bothering to maintain communication and I'd think he actually just couldn't be bothered. However 'in the moment' one is one can't expect to keep a relationship alive if one can't be bothered to call/email etc regularly. This would just leave you up in the air waiting and wondering all the time, unless you can manage to be very laid back about it.

I know I couldn't be that laid back about it and I certainly wouldn't buy the 'in the moment' notion, not deep down anyway, it would be a 'line' I was spinning myself. Only young children have to be that 'in the moment'. I think he does display lack of commitment, yes. Doesn't mean its not a great relationship but is it it going to work for you and make you happy ? Look really honestly at your own emotional makeup, as someone else said here 61 can be about cutting out our internal bull****

So I think 61 is saying examine your truth here, theres no right or wrong answer. If you really can be cool and relaxed enough not to mind infrequent contact then go ahead, if its going to make you stressful and fretting then it won't be fair on you. I'm a bit biased cos I know how I would react in that situation, but if I was in love I guess I'd pretend to myself to be all chilled about it but wouldn't be really and that would be bad news

 

[august moon]

Is it possible to ask about another person's intentions -- or can you only ask for your own self? Because I asked, "How does James truly feel about me?" and I got 10, changing to 14. I'm not sure how to interpret this and I don't know if it is valid to ask about another person like that.

I would not put stock in the "in the moment" thing if I did not experience this myself when we are together. When we are together, he is right there with me, not answering the phone or dealing with business or emailing. You know how everybody these days is in constant communication all the time everywhere thanks to cellphones. Nobody is where they are now. Even walking down the street yammering into a cellphone, people are unaware of their surroundings. It's like they're not there at all. Moreover, I know myself how this is, when you are in another country, and then you get a call from someone from back home, you don't even know what to say because you are where you are and you were not even thinking that communication was possible. Nowadays, things are different because making a long distance phone call is no big deal (not like it was!) and email is instant and pretty much everywhere. But still I think a person who is immersed in the present, in where they are or what they're doing is a more natural and healthy human.

 

[luz]

Hi August Moon,

You seem to understand his 'out of sight out of mind' approach perfectly and you even seem to approve of it. And yet, you feel that you need to ask how he feels about you and you also wonder whether you should hold on or let go.

Thing is, you can understand something conceptually and yet not be comfortable with it. It's for you to decide, like Trojan said, whether you can put up with it or not.

 

[willowfox]

" "How does James truly feel about me?" and I got 10.3,5, changing to 14."

Hex 10.3 he knows that if he messes up then you will bite him, but if he appears to be acting stupid he is doing it for you, I think he is being sincere.

Hex 10.5 he knows that his conduct must be beyond reproach, he knows not to mess up.

Hex 14 he thinks of you as someone very important to him, someone rich in virtues, someone fantastic, someone he cannot afford to lose.

 

[august moon]

Hi August Moon,

You seem to understand his 'out of sight out of mind' approach perfectly and you even seem to approve of it. And yet, you feel that you need to ask how he feels about you and you also wonder whether you should hold on or let go.

Thing is, you can understand something conceptually and yet not be comfortable with it. It's for you to decide, like Trojan said, whether you can put up with it or not.

I know. I have lately begun to think perhaps he is in my life to help me be more of a Moment person. Generally I would say my nature has always been to be a vector as in geometry: at this point right now and moving forward, not clinging to the past or regretting or rehashing (shoulda, woulda, coulda...) But even looking forward is a distraction from being in the Moment. (Of course, to insert that famous quip, that is zen and this is tao... )

 

[august moon]

" "How does James truly feel about me?" and I got 10.3,5, changing to 14."

Hex 10.3 he knows that if he messes up then you will bite him, but if he appears to be acting stupid he is doing it for you, I think he is being sincere.

Hex 10.5 he knows that his conduct must be beyond reproach, he knows not to mess up.

Hex 14 he thinks of you as someone very important to him, someone rich in virtues, someone fantastic, someone he cannot afford to lose.

"...if he appears to be acting stupid he is doing it for you, I think he is being sincere." Could you explain what you mean here? Being sincerely stupid for me??

 

[willowfox]

As in stupid outer behaviour but sincere in his feelings for you.

 

[bruce_g]

Pigs and fishes aren’t stupid; they just don’t let complications of human drama affect them. Inner truth isn’t to be confused with intellect or emotional self control; it’s more primitive than that. You might say it’s like: “at this point right now and moving forward, not clinging to the past or regretting or rehashing…"

edit: august_moon, from here, it doesn't sound as though anything is broken. Sounds more as though you and he know what's going on. I think the Yi is only confirming it.

 

[august moon]

It is the Inner Truth (I think) that has kept me hanging in there. But I guess it is my inner child which is still asking, "Yes, but do you really love me?"

Or am I just the stubborn pig/fish?

 

[bruce_g]

It is the Inner Truth (I think) that has kept me hanging in there. But I guess it is my inner child which is still asking, "Yes, but do you really love me?"

Or am I just the stubborn pig/fish?

I can't exactly answer that, but your inner truth can.

Try this: There's a hollow spot inside; it has no prejudices, no partialities, not even a single preference or attachment. Now imagine that every living thing also has that spot in them. From this place, you can communicate with a dog, pig or fish.

You've got it, he's got it too. If you can get them singing together, you can enjoy an enduing relationship.

The inner child, 'course she needs feeding and attention. But can you or anyone rely 100% of the time on someone else for that? Gotta have your own. It's that very security which attracts the other crane to you. Priorities change.

 

[august moon]

I can't exactly answer that, but your inner truth can.

Try this: There's a hollow spot inside; it has no prejudices, no partialities, not even a single preference or attachment. Now imagine that every living thing also has that spot in them. From this place, you can communicate with a dog, pig or fish.

You've got it, he's got it too. If you can get them singing together, you can enjoy an enduing relationship.

The inner child, 'course she needs feeding and attention. But can you or anyone rely 100% of the time on someone else for that? Gotta have your own. It's that very security which attracts the other crane to you. Priorities change.

Of course not 100%, but some. We don't live in a vacuum. I've got most of it really -- my personhood is strong, but there is some of that feeding & attention which the inner girl (?) needs which can only come from without. Yes: from a man, dang it!

Otherwise, I'd already be on my way to being a Buddha

 

[bruce_g]

Of course not 100%, but some. We don't live in a vacuum. I've got most of it really -- my personhood is strong, but there is some of that feeding & attention which the inner girl (?) needs which can only come from without. Yes: from a man, dang it!

Otherwise, I'd already be on my way to being a Buddha

chuckling...

Welcome to the world of birds 'n bees.

Of Course you're Buddha! :bows:

 

[bruce_g]

couple more thoughts for you, august moon…

I think your 10. 3, 5 – 14 reading is saying that your emotions are treading upon your reasoning. Line 3, it’s as though you’re treading half-blind, and you get bitten on your emotional butt if you’re not careful where or how you tread. Line 5 is resolute in cautiously going forward; meaning, doing what you know is right (the inner truth thingy).

14 can be a real mind twister (not the word I’d use in real life), in that a blessing seems incomprehensible, and yet it is unavoidable, if you believe in blessings.

With 61 as a base, I’d just say to trust it will come out well. If you listen to 61, you can’t be steered wrong.

 

[august moon]

Well, that was sort of my question about if it is valid to ask about somebody else rather than myself -- the 10-14 turned up in response when I asked about James' true feelings about me. In willowfox's analysis, I am the tiger that James might tread on, the one who would bite. You are saying that I am the treader of tails and could get bitten. Who is the tiger? Who is the subject of the hexagram? Is it like some say about dreams, that it is all about oneself, no matter who is the actor in the dream? Thus if I ask about someone else, does it still turn up about me -- can I only call upon the I Ching to express wisdom for myself?