New member intro & #61

[willowfox]

Well, that was sort of my question about if it is valid to ask about somebody else rather than myself -- the 10-14 turned up in response I asked about James' true feelings about me. In willowfox's analysis, I am the tiger that James might tread on, the one who would bite. You are saying that I am the treader of tails and could get bitten. Who is the tiger? Who is the subject of the hexagram? Is it like some say about dreams, that it is all about oneself, no matter who is the actor in the dream? Thus if I ask about someone else, does it still turn up about me -- can I only call upon the I Ching to express wisdom for myself?

I believe that it is valid to ask about someone else, and in your question about James, I think it clearly shows that you are the tigeress who is on the hunt for her man, you are the person who will bite if he strays from the fold and he knows it. James is the subject of the hexs, he is the one who knows what to do and he is the one that is thinking about you in hex 14, it is his thoughts that the IC is revealing not yours.

 

[bruce_g]

Well, that was sort of my question about if it is valid to ask about somebody else rather than myself -- the 10-14 turned up in response when I asked about James' true feelings about me. In willowfox's analysis, I am the tiger that James might tread on, the one who would bite. You are saying that I am the treader of tails and could get bitten. Who is the tiger? Who is the subject of the hexagram? Is it like some say about dreams, that it is all about oneself, no matter who is the actor in the dream? Thus if I ask about someone else, does it still turn up about me -- can I only call upon the I Ching to express wisdom for myself?

WF and I interpret many things differently. You're the only who can interpret your readings (or our interpretations), ultimately.

It's been my experience that Yi does not always answer our literal question, but will go to the root or cause of the question, which typically resides within ourselves. You mentioned in your first post that “Sometimes the coins turned up relevant readings, sometimes not.” Perhaps this is why some of your past readings did not appear relevant to you. If you always try to apply Yi’s answers literally it can get to be pretty ridiculous. Sometimes answers are very literal, to the point of being very humorous, but at least as often Yi points to your own feelings, thoughts and actions concerning the matter.

Who is the tiger and who is the treader? The tiger is the strong, the ‘treader’ is the weak. Here, the weak (position) needs to be cautious where he/she treads. I’m judging based upon what appears to be your own turmoil over this matter. But of course I could be mistaken. Ask your inner truth.

 

[august moon]

I'm going to have faith in my first gut reaction to 61 -- it was unchanging and obvious (even to someone with the clairvoyance/intuition of a cinder block such as I ) and it resonated with the best of me. It felt right. Thanks to your help I now know that when I get an unchanging hexagram, I needn't obsess over each line's meaning. I have the hexagram in a silver capsule I wear as a necklace.

And if 61 is true, then 14 will come, whoever the tiger in 10 may be.

 

[beithe]

I know I couldn't be that laid back about it and I certainly wouldn't buy the 'in the moment' notion, not deep down anyway, it would be a 'line' I was spinning myself. Only young children have to be that 'in the moment'.

I have had this thought expressed to me in words by two different men at different times in my life. And they used very nearly the same wording. " I may become so focused on what I am doing that I may run right past you like your not there" My response to both was the same..."Then you will understand if I stick my foot out and you land on your face" (smiling sweetly of course) They both shared the sign of Aries and we always got along quite well.

This seems to be your inner truth that you know about him. And your other inner truths are that you love him and you don't know if that is something you'll be able to deal with long distance. 61 does as bruce_g says

throws one back on themselves,

our inner truths. Having to do with the connection between our inner and outer expressions in our lives. Possibly, his long distance job away will help you to mesh the two aspects important to you together. Whether or not the inner truth of love can live with the inner truth of "Where is he?!"

I'm going to have faith in my first gut reaction to 61 -- it was unchanging and obvious (even to someone with the clairvoyance/intuition of a cinder block such as I )

gut= clairvoyance/intuition

If you connect your inner life with your outer life you can only obtain peace of mind and heart.

Salutations and welcome
beithe

 

[august moon]

Well, not being as evolved and disciplined as I would like, I continued to rephrase the question of James' feelings about me, and I got the following responses, including the first one I already mentioned:

How does James truly feel about me? 10.3.5 -> 14
Will James be true to me? 10, unchanging
Does James want a future with me? 59.1.4 -> 10

(You can see how I sometimes get that hexagram "Stop asking already!"... )

Anyway. 10 all over the place. Any thoughts?

 

[jesed]

Hi august moon

Maybe you could find more useful to ask
a) General Diagnosis of the relation betwen James and I
b) What is James' position within the relation
c) What is my position within the relation

Hope this could give you more clarity

Best wishes

 

[willowfox]

"Will James be true to me? 10, unchanging
Does James want a future with me? 59.1.4 -> 10"

Hex 59.1 says that you should clear the air of any misunderstandings that you now have as quickly as possible, don't let your thoughts fester.

Hex 59.4 stop worrying about James, he is with you, now it is time to work for the general good of the both of you.

Hex 10 is about being careful and James is being careful, he probably takes all your worrying and concern for him in a good hearted way. You both know that the situation is difficult for the moment, so stay calm, be patient, and don't overeact. I am sure that James will be true to you, as I think that he has no intention of harming or causing any harm to you. As for a future with you, I think it depends upon your conduct and how you treat him, I believe what you do now will lay the foundations or not for your future together. It is down to you to be pleasant, good natured etc.


Hex 10 three times would signify the delicate nature of your relationship with James, akin to walking on eggs. Don't hassle the guy.

 

[Trojina]

I see this differently FWIW. There is alot of treading on eggshells yes, but why is this ? Someone is being very careful. I think someone might be very carefully and diplomatically be trying to disengage, thats one way of looking at 10 to 59 anyway - taking careful steps (10) to dissolve the relationship (59) The way the question is phrased I'm supposing that someone is him. I think all these 10s could well be about him trying not to upset you with the fact he now seeks more distance. Rather than face you with ending the relationship hes taking a softly softly approach and hoping things will fizzle out naturally ?

Alternatively you do seem to be circling him rather cautiously, ie afraid of asking him these questions directly so maybe the 10 reflecting you also.

 

[august moon]

trojan,but itis 59 -> 10, not vice versa. Except...

Now I am confused -- not about the various analyses you all have so kindly contributed, but in my understanding of the 3 coin procedure.

The book that I have usually used, Book of Changes an Interpretation for the Modern Age by Chan Chiu Ming, says

2 heads = yang unchanging
2 tails = yin unchanging
3 heads = yang changing to yin
3 tails = yin changing to yang

That is how I have always recorded my tosses.

However, when looking at http://www.dreamhawk.com/introchi.htm (a link to which I found somewhere on this site) it says:

3 heads = 6 = a broken line (Broken line) which changes to a firm line (Unbroken line).
3 tails = 9 = a firm line (Unbroken line) which changes to a broken line (Broken line).
2 heads and 1 tail = 7 a firm line (Unbroken line) that does not change.
2 tails and 1 head = 8 a broken line (Broken line) that does not change.

This would mean that those triple heads or tails, which I record as

yang -> yin
or yin -> yang respectively,
would be the opposite.

If this is true, then I have really messed up all of it (except for any unchanging hexagrams.)

What is the correct way??

 

[bruce_g]

Either way can be correct, so long as it is clear to you whether head or tail is assigned as yin or yang, 2 or 3. Most, as far as I know, assign 3 to yang/heads and 2 to yin/tails; as in your first example. But, again, if you assign them differently before tossing, that’s fine too.

 

[august moon]

No, but if the triples are opposite of how I have been doing them...then in the example of 59 -> 10, it would be 10 -> 59. Thus trojan's interpretation would be more correct than willowfox's, in this case.

As it is, willowfox interprets the tosses according to my "half-full" view, while trojan interprets the tosses according to my "half-empty" fears. Or rather, trojan voices my niggling doubt as my Inner Truth.

 

[Trojina]

As Bruce says it doesn't matter what value you designate to heads and tails if you stick with the same value so you're sure yourself what you have decided is a yin or yang line.

If theres more than one moving line I sometimes try reading the primary and relating hexagram as a sentence, hence it seemed intuitively right for me to see 59 to 10 as 'carefully dispersing', though yes it could be read as 'dispersing carefully' which may put a slightly different slant on it. If I looked at the lines individualy well 59,1 does talk of 'rescuing' a situation so I can see where the 'half full' view comes from, but in my own experience 59,4 inevitably bodes some kind of break up, though in the end it really is for the best, excuse the cliche.

BTW I noted the transitional hexagram, which is where you change the first moving line leaving the second in place and that interestingly is 61, line 4. Now I stand to be corrected on how one applies the transitional hexagram but I think it describes the step between the primary and relating hexagram. So in your case 61,4 is the step between 59 and 10. People differ how they view 61,4 but it may help for you to have a look at it.
It descibes one of a team/pair of horses breaking away from its mate and the other single mindedly continuing on.

Initially your question was about if you should hold on or let go of this relationship. Seems from how you write you very much want it to continue, I'm wondering now if you are very careful and inwardly persevering that even if he seems to be slipping away somehow you can hold on. Still that line of thought comes back to the original question doesn't it - is it something you want to hang on to when hanging on is not a good place to be.

Sorry to state the obvious but it seems a real pity you can't have a real open talk about this with him. I reckon persistent niggling doubts are never there without a reason, they are there to protect you in the long run - once they are addressed they can't niggle.

 

[bruce_g]

No, but if the triples are opposite of how I have been doing them...then in the example of 59 -> 10, it would be 10 -> 59. Thus trojan's interpretation would be more correct than willowfox's, in this case.

As it is, willowfox interprets the tosses according to my "half-full" view, while trojan interprets the tosses according to my "half-empty" fears. Or rather, trojan voices my niggling doubt as my Inner Truth.

From here it looks like you're treading over everything, in your search to understand 10.

I maintain that, examining the treading going on in you is still the first and best place to look, to understand the effect it has outside of you.

 

[heylise]

For these questions, stick to the answers as you got them, even though you mixed up the coins. Yi answers your intention, that is more important than if you do it 'right'.

The uneven number decides about yin or yang. So three and one head is yang and three and one tails is yin. Or yin and yang reversed if you prefer that, but then still 1 and 3 for one kind, 1 and 3 for the other kind.

LiSe

 

[august moon]

Well, now I am quite unsure of what's what. I think I'm going to have to simply believe in the original 61 unchanging (at least I can't have messed up the unchanging hexagrams...) Mostly because of the deep sense of "rightness" and strength I felt when I read it. The only thing I can truly know is how I feel.

But for future divinations about other subjects (I have told myself sternly to stop asking about this one!), what I am reading here is that no matter how I toss the coins, as long as I maintain a consistent recording system, my intentions behind the question will be answered. Is there any difference then in simply sticking one's finger in the book and taking whatever it strikes as a portent, much as some people do with the Bible or Qur'an? Because we are trying to delve into our own universal wisdom, which is inside each of us (ala Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz) ? Or swirling the tealeaves and seeing what can be seen? Or pictures in clouds? I don't mean to sound disparaging, because I in fact believe in the universal validity of whatever system suits the individual, and who am I to say for someone else this is true but that is not ?

Though I am a "cinder block" , I am an intellectualizing cinder block.

 

[bruce_g]

Well, now I am quite unsure of what's what. I think I'm going to have to simply believe in the original 61 unchanging (at least I can't have messed up the unchanging hexagrams...) Mostly because of the deep sense of "rightness" and strength I felt when I read it. The only thing I can truly know is how I feel.

But for future divinations about other subjects (I have told myself sternly to stop asking about this one!), what I am reading here is that no matter how I toss the coins, as long as I maintain a
consistent recording system, my intentions behind the question will be answered. Is there any difference then in simply sticking one's finger in the book and taking whatever it strikes as a portent, much as some people do with the Bible or Qur'an? Because we are trying to delve into our own universal wisdom, which is inside each of us (ala Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz) ? Or swirling the tealeaves and seeing what can be seen? Or pictures in clouds? I don't mean to sound disparaging, because I in fact believe in the universal validity of whatever system suits the individual, and who am I to say for someone else this is true but that is not ?

Though I am a "cinder block" , I am an intellectualizing cinder block.

If I were to personally nickname the Yi, I'd called it "The incredible shrinking and expanding Yi". If you search for a big, definitive and decisive answer, you might receive an answer so small and practical that it will go by unnoticed. And, if you look for a small and practical answer, you may receive an answer so large that you can not grasp it from your small mindset at that time. The trick is to grasp the proportion of Yi's answers.

You've done this, or are in the process of doing it; possibly without you even being aware of it. You come back to 61 because it feels solid enough to hold to or stand on. You've intuitively given a large meaning to a large answer. Imo, the other 'stuff' is peripheral by comparison.

I do see your 10s as showing you a picture of what you've been doing: asking questions, wrestling with answers, persisting, digging, following the trails. I'm not suggesting this is bad, and I don't think Yi has said that either. It's just showing you the state of your condition. Don't be too hard on yourself. Proportion is as important as knowing what each hex and change line means.

I think you're doing the right thing by relying on your 61 instincts.

 

[imbue]

Hi August Moon, happy you came back to 61.0 I told you on feb 26 you were where you needed to be, and after you confused your self you came back to the reality, you love him, so what els matters?
Good old fashion inate instincts are almost always understimated. Good luck in the future.
Imbue in australia/ aka/ a.j.anon

 

[august moon]

Sorry to state the obvious but it seems a real pity you can't have a real open talk about this with him. I reckon persistent niggling doubts are never there without a reason, they are there to protect you in the long run - once they are addressed they can't niggle.

trojan -- I was able to do that this morning when he called from Italy. I asked him straight up if he believed in us and he said he did, and that though it was going to be difficult with all the traveling, he says he really does think we're going to survive and make it. Whether this turns out to be the case or not, the important thing for my piece of mind is intention and desire.

 

[beithe]

august_moon

Something a fairly bright individual just said to me seems to apply here also.

Beithe, the state of our being is often better than the state of the perception of our being.

 

[august moon]

This evening I was looking at various websites about I Ching, and I came across this one
http://www.ichingwisdom.com/IChingWisdom/hexagrams.html which has the following method of coin recording:

3 tails - 2 + 2 + 2 = 6 ___ X ___ --> _______Yin line that changes to Yang
2 tails, 1 head - 2 + 2 + 3 = 7 ________ Yang line that does not change
2 heads, 1 tail - 3 + 3 + 2 = 8 ___ ___ Yin line that does not change
3 heads - 3 + 3 + 3 = 9 ____O___ --> __ __ Yang line that changes to Yin

Which therefore has the triples counted as I have always done, but then 2 tails are called yang and 2 heads are called yin, and that is the opposite of how I have done them. So that is a third system...and yet, some of you are saying it doesn't matter, as long as I keep to one consistent system??

 

[willowfox]

This evening I was looking at various websites about I Ching, and I came across this one
http://www.ichingwisdom.com/IChingWisdom/hexagrams.html which has the following method of coin recording:

3 tails - 2 + 2 + 2 = 6 ___ X ___ --> _______Yin line that changes to Yang
2 tails, 1 head - 2 + 2 + 3 = 7 ________ Yang line that does not change
2 heads, 1 tail - 3 + 3 + 2 = 8 ___ ___ Yin line that does not change
3 heads - 3 + 3 + 3 = 9 ____O___ --> __ __ Yang line that changes to Yin

Which therefore has the triples counted as I have always done, but then 2 tails are called yang and 2 heads are called yin, and that is the opposite of how I have done them. So that is a third system...and yet, some of you are saying it doesn't matter, as long as I keep to one consistent system??

I think that the best thing to do is to follow the majority, Wilhelm, Karcher, Balkin, Blofeld and so many others who assign the following values:

Yin = tails = 2

Yang = heads = 3

2+2+2, yin+yin+yin = 6 = changing line to yang

2+2+3, yin+yin+yang = 7 yang line

2+3+3, yin+yang+yang = 8 yin line

3+3+3, yang+yang+yang =9 yang line changing to yin

I think that it does matter and it is the above system that most people alway follow, you cannot chop and change this system otherwise all sorts of mistakes will creep in.

 

[august moon]

I went through and recorded my recent tosses according to the system of Chan Chiu-Ming (the way I have always done it), according to the method on the dreamhawk website, and according to the "standard" method which willowfox outlines. The "standard" method is different in all cases, while the Chan and dreamhawk methods are the same for unchanging hexagrams, and opposite if there are changing lines. Thus:

Chan.............dreamhawk...............standard:
61................61..........................52
10................10..........................15
46................46..........................25
10.3.5-> 14.....14.3.5-> 10............... 8.3.5-> 15
30.2-> 14.......14.2->30...................8.2-> 29
36.2.4-> 34.....34.2.4-> 36...............20.2.4-> 6
59.1.4-> 10.....10.1.4-> 59...............15.1.4-> 55

In virtually all of these cases, the readings using the Chan system make more sense to me than the dreamhawk method and the standard method results seem to me either very obtuse or irrelevant.

If there is a right way and a wrong way (or many wrong ways! ) to record the tosses, then the right way to do it leaves me no more wise than not even consulting anything.
Since I am trying to tap into my own reservoir of the Yi or the Tao or however one wishes to name it, it seems like the method which brings results which speak more clearly to me should be the way to go. Or maybe we are back to pigheaded fishes! [And that's me being the pig-ignorant fish, by the way. ;-)]

 

[heylise]

You did those tosses according to the method you believed in at that moment. So you got an answer according to the way you asked. Imagine a very wise grandparent, listening to a child asking questions. Does that grandparent use methods and rules as they 'should' be applied for clearcut questions, with the right grammar and good complete sentences, or does he/she listen to how the child asks? Children need answers, but they don't yet have grammar and dictionaries and a thesaurus. They ask like children ask and a good grandparent understands the question.

That is the way the Yi answers to you. So your answers were valid answers.

From now on, when you ask, use again the method you believe in. That may be the one you used before. Or you might have learned a different one, and then you use that one. Like a child learns new things, and then can ask in a different way. A college student asks not like a child of 6, he knows many different things and probably needs different answers.

And above all, don't worry... Asking questions of the Yi is something which is meant to help you, not confuse you. Use the way of asking that you like to use, discard what does not fit with you, and you will get good answers.

LiSe