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martin

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It's all part of the black magick conspiracy against the Soul, if you ask me.

As William Blake said:
"May God us keep from single vision, and Chris Lofting's sleep."

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lightofdarkness

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May who?

Markov chain perspectives are well developed and useful.

Qualitatively 'random' and miracle' share the same space, no perception of cause, it is the interpretations that 'colour' things.

Free will is an act of randomness in the context of determinism. UNIVERSALS as such lean towards determinism IN GENERAL, where the UNPREDICTABLE expressions of LOCAL conditions reflect free will at work and so a bias to probabilities processing, induction over deduction.

Probabilities cover the range from the totally predictable to the totally unpredictable and cover the dichotomy of reasoning inductively/deductively.

This gets into types of creativity where the innovative comes out of 'free will' dynamics, and the adaptive come out of 'deterministic' dynamics; free will asserts a 'new' context, determinism maintains the current context (and so creativity is done WITHIN the existing and so is adaptive, not innovative)

The totally unpredictable comes out of free will areas in that these areas include the notion of the psychotic, the magical, child-like thinking, fundamentalism (absolute faith - encapsulation), object-oriented, replacement of context oriented.

Science needs negation to work and so does not get involved in issues of absolute faith, where certainty is WITHIN an individual, not WITHOUT in the form of universal laws.

The CONCENTRATION of the sense of identity from the group to the individual increases 'random' behaviours due to the increase in differentiations, the social fragmentations that result from high precision; thus Columbine etc was an act of 'random' violence, but totally 'logical' from WITHIN the individuals concerned - the realm of the psychotic is a realm of creating one's own little world to such a degree that it is at odds with 'predictable' events of nature, the 'natural' flow based on determined, universal, principles.

The price of free will is of it being negative as well as positive and as such is the home of transcendence to hell as well as to heaven. As such, it is an area in need of monitoring in that it allows for the emergence of what the existing community would consider as 'darkness'.

The more parts oriented one gets so there is in increase in 'emergence' where what emerges is not determined in particular, only its overall structure is determined; IOW what emerges will reflect the patterns of differentiating/integrating in general and the details, their expression, is locally determined.

This realm of emergence is the realm of YANG more than YIN, but being so it is more competitive, more chance oriented; it has to be to allow for development, for adapting quickly to changes through analysis of universals and asserting 'new' perspectives.

"[God] battles in the sign of the Creative".

Determinism as such is in the form of UNIVERSALS derived from patterns of differentiating/integrating, and any model that reflects those patterns will be found to be applicable to ANY context in the universe. BUT, local conditions are dynamic where the scope of expression of a universal is so wide that there is room to move, to express subtle nuances that only the local context brings out.

From the middle of this dynamic of determined (universals) vs free-will (locals) develops 'small world networks'.

In those formations biases will develop to a perspective that is LOCALLY determinism oriented as well as UNIVERSALLY 'random' oriented.

The FACTS to date come out of our neurology and there we see (a) a realm of determinism in the form of DEDUCTIONS from some hypothesis, and (b) a realm of probabilities in the form of INDUCTIONS made from LOCAL conditions.

(a) reflects moving from general to particular.
(b) reflects moving from particular to general.
(c) is a mediation element in the form of our LOCAL consciousness that allows for the refinements of representitives of determinism - our instincts/habits - to allow for us to 'fit in' to the existing context. BUT our consciousness also allows for the 'transcendence' function, an ability to ESCAPE a context, aka seeking of FREEDOM, and so assert a new context to replace the existing, OR, to move on to 'greener pastures'.

The core notion of the 'spiritual' appears to come out of our SPECIES nature as a form of protection of a group; a maintaining of identity, recognition of the same species as a 'link'.

Development of individual consciousness will fragment that sense but also exaggerate it, concentrate it, to a degree where we anthropomorphise - give it 'life' where there is no need to do so, other than a need for protection in some way (and institutionalised religions reflect the exploitation of that sense).

As *conscious* individuals we still have little understanding of the whole, but through neurosciences we are starting to get that understanding, and our being is sourced 'in here'.

As such, if you need to relate to the spiritual then relate to the spiritual that unites us all - our species-nature. THAT nature is identifiable to some degree, all else is exaggerations that are not necessary and are also dangerous in that they turn one against the other.

Chris.
 

gypsy

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A good book about random vs non-random is Deepak Chopra's The Spontaneous Fulfillment of Desire
 

lightofdarkness

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belief systems reflect social priming, PARTICULAR distinctions set a context and assumptions/associations made with that context to 'push buttons' in individuals. Consider:

"Other experiments involve complex patterns of behavior, traits, or stereotypes, which may be primed by representations rather than perceptions of behavior. For example, normal adult participants have been primed by exposure to stimuli associated with traits (such as hostility, rudeness, politeness) or with stereotypes (such as elderly persons, college professors, soccer hooligans). Hostility-primed participants are found to deliver more intense ?shocks? than control participants in subsequent, ostensibly unrelated experiments based on Milgram?s (1963) classic shock experiments. Rudeness-primed participants spontaneously behave more rudely, and politeness-primed participants more politely, than control participants, in subsequent, ostensibly unrelated interactions with experimenters. Youthful participants subliminally primed with words associated with the elderly, such as ?grey?, ?bingo?, ?sentimental?, subsequently walk more slowly, perform worse on memory tasks, and express more conservative attitudes than similar-aged control participants. Perhaps most strikingly of all, college professor-primed participants perform better and soccer hooligan-primed participants perform worse than control participants on a subsequent, ostensibly unrelated, general knowledge quiz. That is, some participants were asked before doing the multiple choice test to do some ostensibly unrelated exercises about college professors, while a control group was not. The participants primed by thinking about this stereotype, generally associated with intelligence, got significantly higher scores. In another session different participants were given an unrelated exercise about soccer hooligans, while a control group was not. The participants primed by thinking about this stereotype, generally associated with lack of intelligence, got significantly lower scores. (See Dijksterhuis and van Knippenberg 1998; Dijksterhuis 2005)"

from:

Active Perception and Perceiving Action:
The Shared Circuits Model

Susan Hurley
http://www.warwick.ac.uk/staff/S.L.Hurley/
 

lightofdarkness

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From an ICPlus perspective, the below subject is about the realm of Lake and Mountain. expansive/contractive bonding, sharing space with another/others:

"An important social heuristic, the mirror heuristic, enables the flexible formation of units of activity in game theoretic situations, including collective units where these are instrumentally effective. In effect, the mirror heuristic makes the formation of units of activity endogenous to instrumental rationality. Moreover, the mirror heuristic is a conditional metaheuristic, which depends on mind reading of the heuristics of other players rather than on predictions of their behavior. Such mind reading can be regarded as emerging from an arms race between behavioral mimicry and ever-smarter behavior reading. Even though unilateral mind reading may have benefits, the mirror metaheuristic illustrates that mutual mind reading has distinctive functions in responding to the challenges of social complexity. If simple heuristics can make us smart in the right environments, then social heuristics can make us smarter still."

From the abstract for:

Social heuristics that make us smarter:
Instrumental rationality, collective activity, mirroring, and mind reading

Susan Hurley

In press, Philosophical Psychology
 

martin

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The brain is a mirror.
Analyzing the mirror, or looking behind it, can be useful. But, as most toddlers soon find out, it will not help much if you want to understand what is reflected in it.
Some toddlers, however, seem to have problems with this.
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martin

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Words are crutches. We only need them as long as we believe that we need them. It seems to us that the words come first. Understanding comes later and is somehow caused by the words. "I hear you."

It's the other way around. You know what I'm going to say before I speak.
The words come AFTER the understanding.

Same with neurological activity. It comes .. well, you know what I'm going to say.
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lightofdarkness

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As I pointed out above, the particular prose was operating in the realm of Lake/Mountain - and so bonding. There is still blending, bounding, and binding as well... as well as their composites in that each is available as a ground from which to interpret reality.

...and the recursion ensures that within each will be a 'mirror'.

Chris.
 

lightofdarkness

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The structure of the spoken/written word reflects its categorical source, recursion of differentiating/integrating, and that appears to be pre this planet.

SERIAL communications allows for PRECISION in expression of representations. Behind that level of expression is emotions, where at one time they were the prime level of expression, and operated more immediatly - in parallel - BUT lacked precision. Behind emotions is the even more generic focus on interacting with the context, to replace, coexist, or move on - and behind THAT is the more generic dynamics of differentiating/integrating.

Serial with parallel allows us to continue our development - which is what is happening, but a part of that happening is the need to integrate with our species-nature, our embodyment, and the universal IC allows for that to happen in that habituation allows for integration 'easily' - and do learning the universals is of benefit in the long run.
 

martin

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Apparently IDM is your main crutch.
You may have needed it in the past, when you learned to walk, but do you need it now?
Why box in your intelligence in a system?
I think you would see the same, and MUCH more, without it.
Throw it away!
 

martin

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If you are afraid to walk on your own, I can hold your hand for a while ..
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luz

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Dobro,

Brrrr!!!! Won't you just miss the food terribly also?


Martin!

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I know your conversation is with Chris but - my opinion :

<font color="0000ff"><"If we can't explain something we call it 'random' and that gives us the feeling that we have explained it.
The odd thing is that those who don't believe in this socalled randomness are seen as superstitious or involved in 'magical thinking'."></font>
I think there are layers of understanding. At the layer where we perceive the world some things are just random. Other seemingly random things may have meaning, even if the cause-effect is not scientifically proven. But if we went through life trying to make sense of everything that appears to be random I think we would be filled with anxiety which is what superstition usually translates into. I believe that at some level all random events have a cause, chain reactions that probably started at the beginning of time, but then this also sounds like determinism and I believe there is some degree of free will involved. It might even be that what we call free will is the the effect of unknown causes and maybe it's predetermined. At this layer we are in we just don't know. But, as a convention, when I toss a coin the result is 'random' even though I know that the angle, the strength I use, the wind, all other sorts of conditions in the environment and of the particular coin I'm tossing surely must determine if it will be heads or tails. But because I can't control these factors or measure them with precision I call it random.

<font color="0000ff">"But believing that you have tamed the Unknown when you have put a label on it, how superstitious and magical is that?"</font>
I agree with this. Not only magical and superstitious but arrogant also. But I don't think anybody believes they have tamed the unknown by calling it random, to me random means we just don't understand it.
 

martin

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Lightangel!

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I agree, from our individual perspectives there are layers. Many things appear to be random and if we would try to figure them all out we would surely go nuts
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And if you mean 'I don't understand this', when you call something 'random' I will not call you 'superstitious'.
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When someone says 'this IS random, objectively, regardless of who observes it', it is different, especially if others feel that it is perhaps NOT random. Then it begins to sounds like 'I know the unknowable'.
 

dobro p

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So - has a lot of this thread been to do with the confusion between the terms 'random' and 'I feel it's random'?
 

lightofdarkness

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Martin,

through understanding/using IDM I obviously see more than you do... which gets us into levels of understanding. Since all levels have the SAME base configurations, where the hierarchy adds support for increased complexity and so more distinctions but maintains the past ones as well, if you cannot see the nuances that make differences then you can interpret something that is way ahead of you as if behind you.

For us as a species our 'crutch' is our neurology. That is not throw-awayable other than in creating some AI systems. IDM is derived from analysis of that crutch, its UNIVERSALS, and so allows for the throwing-away of a wetware perspective in the context of creating meaning-driven systems - once you understand the universal that becomes the foundations for local context development (and so small world networks) so the focus is on how many ways can it be implemented - in neurology, endocrinology (hormones etc), or even silicon.

Your prose to date indicates a focus on consciousness as originating and so, to me, is limited by that perspective - you need to go wider, to recognise the WHOLE of your being rather than a high energy part. THAT part is your crutch in that it stops you from surrendering to the instincts/habits that good training develops and so allows for one to trust those instincts/habits.

Go wide and deep and you will hit the realm of the generic, the vague, but integrated, whole - the realm of core universals. Understanding those universals and their seeding of consciousness and you may move up a few levels in understanding what is going on in general.

(read the section on wave patterns and the IC in the Book of Structures page. THINK about it all: http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icstruct.html)

Chris.
 

luz

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Hey! Where did you get that???

I was experimenting but I thought I had cancelled the post...

It kind of stinks that you can't preview a picture. Also, I tried downloading some emoticons and my computer went on full alert!
 

luz

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vexed.gif


until you tell me where you got your picture!
 

lightofdarkness

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From a discussion with Brian re QM, IC etc - some aspects I think 'fit' into this thread:

Brian, you wrote:

"As far as human beings and other nueron dependant life forms are concerned, time and space are the foundation of reality, from time and from space every pattern is constructed, including light, color, motion, force, substance and the like--and yet time and space are essentially nothing, much less anything absolute, when stripped of those things that they support."

To me the interesting aspect is that time and space for us are not absolutes, light is (or more so its speed). Our brains have adapted STRONGLY to vision and then generalised the characteristics such that our theories etc reflect the absolute of light, the relativity of space and time.

In fact the spacetime continuum at the macro level takes on the form of a Guassian distribution that is reflected at the micro level in Heisenberg's uncertainty principle where deltaPosition and deltaMomentum form into a symmetric dichotomy (+1/-1) format.

if we recurse spacetime we can also extract an asymmetric format where space is position oriented and time is momentum oriented such that we find a universal form spanning from the micro to the macro.... and also reflected 'in here' in the form of brain structure and basic differentiating/integrating dynamics.

(differentiating links to space in that the focus is on making a point, asserting a position. Integrating links to time in that the focus is on linking points in a definite order)

if we review E = MC^2 we in fact end up with an equation vaguely like E = S/T where S is space, T is time. This leads into the fine structure constant where there is the indication that 1/137 of our mass is in EM form.

The uncertainty principle that comes out of the symmetric dichotomies indicates there is no 'vaccum' per se - more a soup of energy, be virtual/perculating.

If we move to our brain dynamics that reflects the two forms of dichotomy, the power law form, the asymmetric form, the spectrum form, shows us development of 'small world networks'. The 'wave' nature is manifest in frequency patterns categorisable as:

WHITE noise
PINK noise
BROWN noise

We an express these in sequences of frequencies - as we find in music. White noise correlates to total surprise for each step, IOW there is NO predictability of what happens next and as such this is interpretable as a 'random' network.

Brown noise is where increments may be different but overall the next IS predictable to a degree of being 'boring'. This correlates with the fully integrated network - universals are 'boring' without colour.

The PINK noise is where we MIX surprise (free will) with predictable (determined). This will elicit a small world network.

The I Ching is the determined. Coin tossing is the surprise and out of that relationship comes a small world network, our personal/cultural experiences of the IC expressed LOCALLY.

This pattern is the SAME as that for spacetime of the uncertainty principle of basic cultural dynamics of the species - such that we see it all in the metaphor of the IC - be it in its universal form (ICPLus) or local form (Traditional IC)

Chris.
 

martin

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Hi Lightangel,

Do you mean that picture with the question mark?
It's not from this forum, I found it some time ago somewhere on the internet, don't remember where.
And, as Dobro said, 'your image here' = LOL!
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martin

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Hi Chris,

"through understanding/using IDM I obviously see more than you do... "

IDM is only one eye. You may look far with that one eye, dear flatlander, but because I look through more eyes I have access to other dimensions.
I can use them to enter your flat house and steal your flat money. And you will never understand what happened.
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More tomorrow night, I hope. I have to go to bed now, busy day tomorrow ..
 

jte

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Hrmmm. Back after a brief absence - I see a ball got rolling here...

"JTE says that as if he knows, but it's just an opinion."
Fair enough. Doesn?t that describe something like 95% of what people write here?

"If there were an unseen intelligence that informed the outcome of an I Ching consultation, how would JTE know?"
It's a belief I've formed, based on personal experience with I Ching readings, synchronicities, and related experiences which I eventually realized are best described as "mystical" in nature. To me it's as much a fact as other things I know, but, again, still just my belief (uh oh, let's not get into phenomenology here... please!)

"And equally true, if it were only random, how would JTE know?"
I base that on research studies that I've heard people refer to (I believe Hilary is one person who mentioned them in a post) that showed that I Ching reading toin cosses have random distributions. I have not read the articles myself, but maybe someone could post a reference? (And no, I'm NOT going to set an experiment up to prove it to myself. Life's too short... )

"If JTE knew enough to answer either of those questions, he wouldn't need an oracle to get through life. He'd be the oracle. Ain't that right JTE? :)"
Hrmm. But I do know the answers (in the sense of having reasonably well-formed beliefs, the less strict sense of "know") and yet I'm not the oracle... I think... =)

?About the randomness of I Ching results, there are three main possibilities that I see:
* Results are random.
* Results are the outcome of an unseen intelligence which guides the fall of the coins.?
FYI, I believe both at the same time and no longer see them as mutually contradictory (took me a while to get used to *that* particular bit of Yi wisdom)

?I think I agree with JTE.?
*Blushes* If only Dobro had just cut to the chase and said this instead! =)

?I don't know how it works, though. It is random but meaningful, as JTE said above.?
Where have you been all my life?!? =)

- Jeff
 

yly2pg1

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if we review E = MC^2 we in fact end up with an equation vaguely like E = S/T where S is space, T is time. This leads into the fine structure constant where there is the indication that 1/137 of our mass is in EM form.

Where is the entrance of "1/137" mass?
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lightofdarkness

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"1/137 of the kinetic energy of a moving electron resides in the surrounding magnetic field.

A fraction, 1/137, of the inertial mass of the electron is therefore in the form of electromagnetic energy" (time, space, & things : B.K.Ridley)

In atomic spectra this is known as the fine structure constant.
 

luz

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<u>Rave reviews:</u>

<font color="ff0000">"Your Image Here"
LOL
Dobro</font>

<font color="0000ff">And, as Dobro said, 'your image here' = LOL!
Martin</font>

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Thank you, thank you, I'm glad you appreciate my post. It was meant to bring some comic relief to this thread.
You didn't think I made a mistake, did you?

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pakua

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Hi Dobro,

Just some thoughts...

"the reality that people call 'God' is essentially love, or some energy very much like love, and this love is available to everybody"

God is also all the crappy things that happen to us, which means all those other kinds of energy as well. Although from what one reads, it's best for us to tune into the love part, and keep loving even in spite of having a hard time, although I personally don't know anyone who can do that.

Some people "lucky" enough to be "born under a good sign" seem to have an easier life, which makes it easier to love. I see it as like your hierarchy theme, it may be available in theory to all, but in practice very few can actually get there.

"...people who see the intelligence... those people will be seeing everything more clearly and will be more in tune with the cosmos "

Some people don't use intelligence to get through life - they may use intuition, or instinct, or feeling - I would think they could also be very in tune, maybe even more so?
 

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