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Phrasing a question re: salary increase

elizabeth

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Hello,

I hopefully will be asking for help interpreting hexagrams shortly, but first I need advice on how to phrase a question.

The crux of it is:
1) new job as of this March
2) workaround payment solution via contract while I wait for local paperwork to go through
3) paperwork now done, but haven't signed contract locally yet
4) regardless, terms of salary were determined in March
5) recent discussions with friends suggest I'm being underpaid as an expat. its true that on current salary i cannot return to my country of origin and buy food -- its too expensive.
6) company in question going thru major layoffs and FY budget for 06 already set/confirmed; layoffs dont affect me or others at my site as we're not located at/in HQ

So I want to know 1) how to ask my boss 2) when to ask 3) if I will be successful.
Any advice on what to ask the Yi or how to phrase it?

By the way if anyone sees Jesed online, pls let him know to check his inbox.

-Elizabeth
 

willowfox

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Hi Elizabeth,

If I ask now, will my request for a salary increase be successful?
 

elizabeth

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Thanks. I tried that. I said "If i ask my boss for the salary increase to X amount before the end of September, will it be completely successful". I got two hexagrams, both the same, both unchanging and both are

42. I / Increase

above Sun The Gentle, Wind


below Chên The Arousing, Thunder


The Judgement
Increase. It furthers one
To undertake something.
It furthers one to cross the great water.

The Image
Wind and thunder: the image of Increase.
Thus the superior man:
If he sees good, he imitates it;
If he has faults, he rids himself of them.

Is this a "go for it"?
 

willowfox

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Hi Elizabeth,

Yes, go for it. You have nothing to lose but everything to gain. It is good for you to cross the great water, the great divide between employee and management.
 

elizabeth

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Then why does it scare the living daylights out of me?!?!

Also, although I posed the question to the Yi with the exact total sum I want, it's possible my boss would say "not now but later" (fine) or else "we cant do that much but we can do half of it" or any other variation...those are both "successful" also. I'm very scared of refusal NOT bc it means I wont get the increase, but bc I fear it will make me come across as only interested in money and not interested in doing my job (since I'm still fairly new in it)
 
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willowfox

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Hi Elizabeth,

Don't be a chicken, the boss ain't going to bite or think anything bad. He is far to busy to have lingering thoughts about your request for a raise. In one of the other questions that you asked, one of the answers that was given said that you were very talented and good at what you do. If he says no what have you lost? Nothing. If he says yes, what have you gained? A bigger pay packet. Hex 42 says that you will not have to make a sacrifice to gain an increase.
 
J

jesed

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Hi

In traditional teachings, 42 points that you have reached the top of what you can achieve. So, you have 2 choices: a) conserve what you have..or b) decay

The attempt to get more that what you have, when you are in "42" is go beyond the middle way, is an excess...and decay comes.

So, according with traditional teachings, you won't get a higher salary if you ask for it before the end of september

Best wishes
 
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jesed

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PS.

With mathematical method:
1.- When asking if something would happen, an unchanging hexagram means nothing happen (see the thread about Saddam's criminal trial)

2.- In 42, the line that represents the consultant is the line 3. it is Dragon (earth element), and it is under the Wife aspect. The wife aspect also means money. So, elizabeth would receive money.

3.- The line is neither produced nor destroyed by the season (the month is Monkey, metal and metal reduces earth). And it is destroyed by the day (assuming the day of casting was september 6, the day was rabbit, wood and wood destroys earth). That means bad luck in the short term.

4.- The aspect that represent the boss is the father aspect (autority). It is Rooster and it is hidden under line 3. That means the boss is like absent for the issue. But it would be out of hide in the next Rooster month (from September 8 to october 7)

Conclusion:
Asking before the end of september won't be useful. You could find a better receptiveness from your boss between october 1 and october 7

Best wishes
 

elizabeth

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Jesed! Thank you so much for this interpretation. I really appreciate it. Yes you're correct that I cast the hexes on a local date of Sept. 6th.

Perhaps I'll try in early October then. In that case I should go ahead and sign employment papers now (whatever contracts need my signature). I had assumed those were "setting in stone" my current salary but they may not be. I hope the Yi, and you, in this case, are correct about early October!

I just asked another question about the best time to ask. My browser frustratingly crashed on me before I could see the second hexagram. But the first was 23. Splitting apart with changing line 4 (bed, misfortune).
Can anyone help with half of a reading :-S??
 
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elizabeth

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I waited a couple of hours and asked again. Knowing I would not get the same reply but here is the response to the question what is the best time to ask for the raise:

Hex 54, ch lines 2 and 4, & Hex24 the Turning point.

54. Kuei Mei / The Marrying Maiden
above Chên The Arousing, Thunder
below Tui The Joyous, Lake
Judgement
The Marrying Maiden.
Undertakings bring misfortune.
Nothing that would further.

The Image
Thunder over the lake:
The image of The Marrying Maiden.
Thus the superior man
Understands the transitory
In the light of the eternity of the end.

The Lines
Change in the second place means:
A one-eyed man who is able to see.
The perseverance of a solitary man furthers.

Change in the fourth place means:
The marrying maiden draws out the allotted time.
A late marriage comes in due course.

and hex 24
24. Fu / Return (The Turning Point)
above K'un The Receptive, Earth
below Chên The Arousing, Thunder

The Judgement
Return. Success.
Going out and coming in without error.
Friends come without blame.
To and Fro goes the way.
On the seventh day comes return.
It furthers one to have somewhere to go.

The Image
Thunder within the earth:
The image of The Turning Point.
Thus the kings of antiquity closed the passes
At the time of solstice.
Merchants and strangers did not go about,
And the ruler
Did not travel through the provinces.

++

THe reference to "undertaking brings misfortune" is clear enough. And the point about at the time of solstice the passes are closed. The summer solstice ends (fall begins) on Sept. 21 but based on the first hexagram, I would assume it is saying that later, much later "a late marriage comes in due course" (ie marriage of me plus my raise). But when does it refer to?
 
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willowfox

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Hi Elizabeth,

hex 23.4 changes to hex 35
hex 23.4 says bed splitting in half, bad luck
hex 35 says advancing, honour 3 times in one day, auspicious.

hex 23 indicates the time between 29th of September to 5th of October but it is not a lucky time for you.
hex 35 indicates the time around the middle of February.

You asked the same question a second time but you already received an answer.

hex 54 indicates the time between the 4th to the 10th of September.
hex 24 indicates the time between the 29th of of November to the 5th of December.
 

hilary

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Before you actually make your approach to the boss, I suggest asking for advice on how to ask to maximise your chances. I think this is a quite separate question from 'when'. Yi should be able to help you present your request to good effect.
 
J

jesed

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Hi Elizabeth

Just in case the comment could be of any use:


elizabeth said:
I just asked another question about the best time to ask. My browser frustratingly crashed on me before I could see the second hexagram. But the first was 23. Splitting apart with changing line 4 (bed, misfortune).

First, say that willowfox and I have diferent ways to determinate the dates of an hexagram. I had posted several times in this forum the rules I apply to do it.

1.- Taking in account just the names of the hex, I think something like: "retreat yourself for asking the rise leads you to progress".

2.- Calendaric references. Hex 23 is in the past: started in earth (between feb 1st and March 16, 2006) and ended in mountain (between August 1st and Sept 16, 2006). When the primarly hex is in the past, one need to see if the second hex is in the present, otherwise, is a very bad answer.

In this case, hex 35 is in the present. Started in earth (between feb 1st and March 16, 2006) and will end in fire (between December 17, 2006 and January 31, 2007)

What this means? That the time for retreatment (don't undertake anything) is over, and now you are in a time for progress by cooperation.

Now, line 4 of hex 35 is active between august and september, 2006. And the text advices agaisnt try to acumulate things when you are in an uncertain position. You could see that the image of the line is similar to the image you don't want to have (interesting in money and not in your job)

Line 5 (would be active between october and november, 2006) says good fortune; but don't take seriously gain or loss. This means two posibilities: a) you receive a rise; b) you don't receive a rise, but your position in job improve and compensate the money issue.

As you can see. this answer is congruent with the previous answer.

And the advice of Hillary is a great one.

Best wishes
 

willowfox

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Hi Elizabeth,

if you are afraid of discussing the matter with the boss, is it possible to approach him via letter first?
 

elizabeth

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hi everyone and thanks for all of the feedback.

willowfox - its not the manner of posing the question, rather the act of doing so that concerns me.

Jesed, many thanks in particular for the delineation of your hexagram/date interpretation. I prefer to follow that route too, as it seems more traditional, so let me ask you: based on what you wrote, it sounds like the best time for me to ask is not now but in October or November, correct? Is it possible that best of all would be waiting until February 2007?

++
I just took hilary's advice and asked for how to maximize the chances of getting a raise. I almost laughed in surprise when I saw the result. It was:

Hexagram 10 with changing lines 2, 5 and 6 --> hex.52 unchanging.

10. Lu / Treading (Conduct)
above Ch'ien The Creative, Heaven
below Tui The Joyous, Lake

The Judgement
Treading. Treading upon the tail of the tiger.
It does not bite the man. Success.

The Image
Heaven above, the lake below:
The image of Treading.
Thus the superior man discriminates between high and low,
And thereby fortifies the thinking of the people.

The Lines
Change in the second place means:
Treading a smooth, level course.
The perseverance of a dark man
Brings good fortune.

Change in the fifth place means:
Resolute conduct.
Perseverance with awareness of danger.

Change at the top means:
Look to your conduct and weigh the favorable signs.
When everything is fulfilled, supreme good fortune comes.

and hex51. Chên / The Arousing (Shock, Thunder)
above Chên The Arousing, Thunder
below Chên The Arousing, Thunder

The Judgement
Shock brings success.
Shock comes--oh, oh!
Laughing words--ha, ha!
The shock terrifies for a hundred miles,
And he does not let fall the sacrificial spoon and chalice.

The Image
Thunder repeated: the image of Shock.
Thus in fear and trembling
The superior man sets his life in order
And examines himself.

++
i remember vaguely reading about the results of hex 51 but now i cannot recall the significance of that hex.

for hex 10 it seems like the Yi is just giving me common sense advice (which I'm proud to say I'm already aware of). Namely: do a good job first, build a good rapport with boss and coworkers, prove you can do the job and THEN ask for the raise. ie "WHEN everything is fulfilled" (but not before that), supreme fortune comes.

line 2 seems to support line 6, saying that i need to keep my head to the grindstone now and not be asking for more until a bit later on (in that respect, even Oct/Nov seems too early IMHO).

Line 5 seems to carry a warning. Is that simply a 'beware you may not get the raise' when you inquire, or is there more to it?

But i dont know about the timing in these hexes and lines -- jesed maybe you can help decipher any dates hidden in this reading.

Again thanks,
-elizabeth
 
B

bruce_g

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Hi Elizabeth,

I agree with your assesment of your last reading. I’m seeing 10.5 as an affirmation of it. 51 has reliability, steadfastness and calmness. A diligent, skilled and stable employee with the appropriate longevity is in a good position to ask for a raise when the timing is right.
 

willowfox

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Hi Elizabeth,

Hex 10.2 says smooth the way, work hard, make sure that you do an excellent job , keep yourself to yourself. no time for slacking.
Hex 10.5 says problems will arise that cannot be avoided but confront them boldy and decisively, and keep on working.
Hex 10.6 says follow the example of workers who have gone before, be of good conduct, strive to show that you are an excellent worker, then success will be yours.

Hex 51 says a time to wake up and stir into action, at first you are fearful but later comes joy and laughter.

Hex 51 indicates a time for the first quarter of next year. But this question is not about time.

It seems to me that hex 10.2,5,6 is telling you to hold on until you have a reputation of being a super employee, then the boss will have no choice but to give you that raise. I do not see you getting any raise for the moment, what I see is nothing happening at all with this wage increase story for quite some time. It is probably best for you to let this business remain dormant until hex 51 wakes it up again, around the beginning of next year.
 

elizabeth

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bruce_g said:
Hi Elizabeth,

I agree with your assesment of your last reading. I’m seeing 10.5 as an affirmation of it. 51 has reliability, steadfastness and calmness. A diligent, skilled and stable employee with the appropriate longevity is in a good position to ask for a raise when the timing is right.

I suppose I'm only a little disappointed because I was hoping that a request in October or even January would be fruitful. And I know myself (I knew before asking the Yi) that appropriate longevity is necessary. I simply have a window now before signing initial documents that I thought might be..well, an opportunity.

Now to determine "when the timing IS right"...
 
B

bruce_g

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elizabeth said:
Now to determine "when the timing IS right"...

I'd walk into his or her office, and if he/she seems in a decent mood and not too preoccupied, say, "Mornin', boss. When is the best time to ask you for a raise?"
 

willowfox

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Hi Elizabeth,

you have already asked the question about when, answer hex 35. February, 2007.

Now is the time, I think, to stop asking questions about the increase, timing etc, you have received enough answers. It is a time for you to get stuck into your work and let this query slide at least until the new year.
 

autumn

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You've received two different interpretations of what date Hexagram 35, the tendential hexagram, refers to. I believe Willowfox is using direct associations between the Chinese calendar and hexagrams to determine her dates. If that is the case, then I am not certain why Willowfox is using the tendential hexagram as a reference to the date in your reading. The resulting hexagram is not the primary focus on the reading, the primary hexagrm is, so it would just be my guess that if I were to use a direct association between a hexagram and the chinese calendar I would use the primary hexagram. However, Willowfox may have a very special unique method here that has not been shared.

In Jesed's case, he is using Hex. 35 to determine the best time to ask for a raise because Hex. 23 is in the past, and of course, you can't ask for a raise in the past. The bottom trigram of Hex 35 is Earth. The time began in Earth (see his post above), and ends in Fire, which is in the future. Further, the changing lines refer to 45 day increments within the begin/end dates of the trigrams.

I just say this so you understand where the two very different predictions of when to ask for a raise come from.
 
J

jesed

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Hi Elizabeth

Just in case this could be useful

1.- Not in every answer we can determinate a calendaric reference. Example, when you asked how is the best way to improve your chances to get the rise, that answer won't provide a calendaric reference.

2.- In the answer about the best time, Autumn is correct. In the tools i learned (I'm not saying is the truth, all the truth..., just my exdperience), hex 35 would end in Fire (that means, until January 31, 2006)

3.- When an answer provides a calendaric reference, each line is a time (weeks, months, depending the case). So, IN THAT KIND OF ANSWER, the lines are a time secuency. Therefore, i notice that the actual line points to not ask for rise.. but the next line (october-november) is the best one (good fortune). So, in my opinion, is the best time to ask the rise.

4.- Now, we can derivate some ideas:
a) Not now (september)
b) maybe the best chance in october-november
c) In any case, around january 31.

5.- My practical suggestion:
a) Follow the excelent advice of 10
b) Meanwhile, put atention for favourable signs in october-november
c) if you don't see favourable signs in october-november, wait for the last days of january

Best wishes
 

willowfox

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Hex 23.4 cannot be used, one, it indicates bad luck in the situation asked about and secondly, the time given is the beginning of October, not enough time for the situation to mature.

Hex 35 is very auspicious, it gives the situation the time needed to mature, and it gives February.

This method is based solely on the Chinese calendar. All the hexs cover certain periods of time. If requested, I could narrow the window down to a 6 day period.
 

Trojina

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bruce_g said:
I'd walk into his or her office, and if he/she seems in a decent mood and not too preoccupied, say, "Mornin', boss. When is the best time to ask you for a raise?"

Yup Elizabeth, no disrespect to anyone but I think its pretty much as simple as that, no calculations nothing.

This would make a great farcical comedy sketch. Now just supposing you follow all the advice for precisely the right timing, you've been geared up to it for months. The big day arrives er and a)your boss is away for a few months b)he says "No Elizabeth this really is not the right time to ask me" .

Ask when it feels right to you to ask. You can trust yourself if you go with your instincts.
You don't need anyone to tell you when to ask for a raise IMO
 
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elizabeth

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Hello....

LOL Bruce that was great.

Trojan- No I dont need anyone to tell me when to ask for a raise. But doing so at the wrong time can seriously jeopardize my employment position. I also have a very unique situation (trussst me on this). I wasn't just hired and started a job. I wasnt just hired and put on payroll. I was hired, they couldn't pay me, i agreed to retroactive pay, they couldnt do that either, they did a workaround, while local paperwork was begun, it was supposed to take 3 months but it took 6, I had to cross two international borders and got stuck in a foreign country bc of their mistakes... meanwhile i'm being paid in another country, but after next week will be finally -- after six long harried months-- a full time employee in the city I live and work in. POINT BEING: next week is a transitional period. I thought perhaps it would be advantageous to ask now. All signs point to "not now". So there you have it.

Oh - the other thing is my boss is in the USA, but I am not. Meaning... if i ask for a raise it's over the phone (best case) or via email (big no-no). Unless i book a trip and ask in person. (high price tag!) Thats another reason this is kinda awkward.

Jesed- again thank you for the details and explanation. I am going to follow your advice and look for signs of a good "in " sometime next month. In fact (speak of the devil) my boss just wrote me speaking about adding some more responsibility to my plate come January. I said "great". When I agreed to take the job that was part and parcel of it, but I have leeway (ie lighter load) until then as I onboard. When it comes time to add this other responsibility (January) or if he mentions it next month, I am guessing that will be my chance to say something or at least plant the seed mentally in his mind...
 
J

jesed

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New responsabilities?


jesed said:
This means two posibilities: a) you receive a rise; b) you don't receive a rise, but your position in job improve and compensate the money issue.

Let's wait.

In any case, I want to remember something: the time for 23 had pased..now you are in a time for progress by cooperation.

best wishes
 

elizabeth

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Progress by cooperation. Okay. So, translation: I do what he wants now, and then (ha ha) he does what I want later (ie raise). In a perfect world at least. Right?

Yes the new responsibilities will be new in terms of I haven't done them yet. But I agreed I would do them when I signed on, but they gave me the first 6-9 months of the job as sort of part time or lighter load. So once I take them on, I am still not going "above and beyond" what they expect... I'm simply doing what we agreed the job would be originally. The difference is that it is ultimately adding more to my "plate".
 

willowfox

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Hi Elizabeth,

not long to wait to see what happens between the 28th of Sept to 4th of Oct. Probable arguments with others, perhaps to do with money, trouble with friends at work, contract problems,legal hassles. Be on your guard, then there will be no surprises.
 

elizabeth

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Willowfox, hi --

where do you get the Sept. 28-Oct. 4 period? I intend to ask my landlady if i can buy the apartment that week. Bad idea?? wait until mid Oct??
 

willowfox

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Hi Elizabeth,

Hex 23 gives 28th to 4th of October. I would think a better time to start would be around the 12th of October, and perhaps an answer will be given on the 21st of October.
 
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