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Primary and relating hexagrams

Sparhawk

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Oh, no, milk or not, I still value the cow! I love her! :hug: Apart from that, I don't eat meat. Is a soya meat BBQ okay for you? :D

Oh my... Now you know why I'm not a good Premmie... :D
 

martin

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Yeah, I've tried prefacing what I say when I interpret here with 'the Yi seems to be saying'. I think I need a more honest preface. Maybe 'applied to your situation and question, the symbols in this line seem to mean something like this...'

"I guess that perhaps I have just a hunch and I might very well be wrong, I probably am, and I don't know if this is of any use to you, it probably isn't, but perhaps the answer you received may mean at least sometimes something like ... "
 

dobro p

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dobro to Martin's cow: Would you like to come to lunch with me? I'd like you to meet my friend Luis.
 

dobro p

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"I guess that perhaps I have just a hunch and I might very well be wrong, I probably am, and I don't know if this is of any use to you, it probably isn't, but perhaps the answer you received may mean at least sometimes something like ... "

:rofl:

Maybe we could have that piece of text on every page in the forum so that if you just click on it, it appears as an introduction to every interpretation.
 

Sparhawk

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Luis, stoking the fire, said to the cow: Welcome! Any friend of my friends is my friend too. Come, please sit by the fire... :D
 

dobro p

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Martin's cow to dobro: Lunch? Really? How kind of you to ask! Yes, that would be lovely! What's for lunch, by the way?

dobro to Martin's cow: Oh, there's no need to go into details at this point. Oh look! Here comes Luis! Hm...and by the look of that axe he's carrying, I'd say Uncle Luis has been cutting wood again.

dobro to Luis: I've got the barbeque sauce and the matches. Did you bring forks?
 

dobro p

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I came to that same conclusion quite a few years ago as I think it is a disservice to the querents, and even disrespectful, to shot-from-the-hip with statements like "the Yi is telling you this or that" and openning the field for others to provide their own grains of salt to the soup

Also, I can see what you're saying here and I agree that it can be dodgy. But you know, I consult the Yi daily, and I need to be able to come up with snapshot interpretation if it's going to be useful to me. Then I need to be able to remember it. And apply it.

No problem. :rofl:
 

martin

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Luis, stoking the fire, said to the cow: Welcome! Any friend of my friends is my friend too. Come, please sit by the fire... :D

How nice of you! I will bring my best friend then, he loves humans! :)

cca31f6f88b665cf12e82c6bfecc5ebf82bc2511.jpg
 

Sparhawk

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Also, I can see what you're saying here and I agree that it can be dodgy. But you know, I consult the Yi daily, and I need to be able to come up with snapshot interpretation if it's going to be useful to me. Then I need to be able to remember it. And apply it.

No problem. :rofl:

What you do inside your head, granting that stays there, does not harm to others... :D

In my case, that also applies to sexual fantasies... :rofl:
 

Sparhawk

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How nice of you! I will bring my best friend then, he loves humans! :)

cca31f6f88b665cf12e82c6bfecc5ebf82bc2511.jpg

Hmmm, bear meat... Please do, the more the merrier... :rofl:
 

Sparhawk

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I'm hungry now and can't think straight. Can somebody remind me what the thread was about? :D
 

martin

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It's about the relating hexagram and if it indicates a future meal or not.
And of course about how to use the Yi to answer the only question that really matters: "What shall we eat today?"
 

hilary

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Right. Thanks, Martin.

Playing catch-up desperately here - and with a reading to do in 20 minutes, better not get too engrossed...

Can the application of a long list of interpretive tools be a form of laziness?
Um, don't think so. You try walking round 4 line pathways for 4 changing lines, and then looking at the change patterns... it's quite the workout.

Could it be a kind of spiritual laziness - "I'd rather do something mechanical/intellectual than really engage with this"? In theory, yes... but it doesn't seem to work like that, as a rule.

Can it be mechanical? Yes, sometimes. Is it actually any use? Yes, sometimes. (Often, even.) Sometimes/ often, diving into umpteen times more images in search of umpteen times more connections brings up more resonant messages. People connect with them more clearly, remember them more vividly, and find them easier to carry with them and use.

Come to think of it, that's the best argument I know of for holding onto relating hexagrams. They seem to be the part of the reading where people can most often recognise themselves - and you need that sense you're being spoken to, for any of the reading to be any use at all.

Enjoy the barbecue.
 
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meng

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Hmm, I think you may be correct about laziness, Hilary. We can also call it efficiency. If the human mind needs to find patterns of order in chaos, even if it must invent them, how much easier might we operate by finding patterns within an established system?

I can see a legitimate case made for using and not using relating/transitional hexagrams, or for using or eliminating change lines when there's more than two, etc, or any other system you choose. For me, both of those methods throw away some of the stew, and so I'll go on using all lines and the relating Gua. But hold the fan yao and nuclear, please; I'd rather add them to taste.
 

hilary

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That's what I was getting at in my original question - not 'what's the system you follow?' as for some reason I didn't expect you to have one, but what makes the stew, and what's seasoning?
 

martin

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Can the application of a long list of interpretive tools be a form of laziness?
Um, don't think so. You try walking round 4 line pathways for 4 changing lines, and then looking at the change patterns... it's quite the workout.

It's a lot of intellectual 'work' perhaps but it could still be 'lazy' in the spiritual sense because one refuses to engage ones intuition or higher mind. That is what Dobro means, if I understand him correctly.
 

martin

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But I think that consulting an oracle is in some cases already a form of 'spiritual laziness'. I mean, sometimes (often?) we know the answer, or we could know it, if we only listened to subtle cues and signals. But throwing coins is easier ...
 

dobro p

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If the human mind needs to find patterns of order in chaos, even if it must invent them


Yeah, I think people believe in invented stuff for lack of the real thing, too. But I also believe that the real thing is there to be found if you have the will and do the work and tune your heart right. Don't you?
 

lienshan

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I don't think that a relating hexagram is original when I study this pre-Yi pottery picture:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/attachment.php?attachmentid=402&d=1184505468

Four numbers were used:

X ... odd number 5
/\ ... even number 6
-- ... odd number 7 (a line without the little vertical stroke)
)( ... even number 8

The distribution of numbers indicates that 6 and 7 were like steady lines while 5 and 8
were changing lines. The notification was later on changed to the today known whole
and broken lines. 7 and 8 were made steady lines while 6 and 9 instead of 5 were made
changing lines. This change of notification to only whole and broken lines in the Yi
divining manual caused the use of a relating hexagram to show changing lines in the
way described by Bent Nielsen.
 

dobro p

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But I think that consulting an oracle is in some cases already a form of 'spiritual laziness'. I mean, sometimes (often?) we know the answer, or we could know it, if we only listened to subtle cues and signals. But throwing coins is easier ...


For me, it's acted as a ritual that puts me in intentional touch with my higher mind. In the beginning, it felt very daring. Now I have a sense of a reliable higher mind that is constantly present for me to access whenever I choose, and this sense is based on years of uncannily accurate and useful consultations. For really big questions, it would be easy for me now to abandon the oracle and simply address my question to higher mind and work out the answer over time. But I use the oracle daily now, in the same way most people check a weather report - it's a quick way to find out what's going on.
 

martin

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For me, it's acted as a ritual that puts me in intentional touch with my higher mind. In the beginning, it felt very daring. Now I have a sense of a reliable higher mind that is constantly present for me to access whenever I choose, and this sense is based on years of uncannily accurate and useful consultations.

Yes, I think that is where oracles can help. They can show us the way to our higher - or subtler - knowing. Show us 'where' that knowing is.
 

Leracy

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My goodness, I was only away for 24 hours and look what I started :mischief:

I'd always assumed that if you get a hexagram with changing lines then it must be changing TO something in the same way that Yin changes to Yang or Winter to Spring or whatever. And the text books I have all seem to say that. But then I noticed that sometimes the reading I got in response to my question didn't seem to work out like that at all. And the reading that I got which started this thread seemed positively and absolutely back to front. Hence my question.

And now I see that there's a lot of debate, so maybe I should ask the Yi about the correct way to interpret readings? (Can feel a hex 4 coming along for the answer)

Thank you all for your replies
 

martin

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The first thing I always check is if the relating hexagram reflects the question. Or the state of mind or situation of the questioner. Often it does.
So for instance, if the relating hex is 34, the question might very well be about using force, or the person who asks might be in a state of mind in which he or she is inclined to use force. Or in a situation that seems to ask for it.
 

hilary

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It's a lot of intellectual 'work' perhaps but it could still be 'lazy' in the spiritual sense because one refuses to engage ones intuition or higher mind. That is what Dobro means, if I understand him correctly.
Hence the next paragraph I wrote, addressing exactly that. ;)
 

martin

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Ah, I see. You were talking about just plain old fashioned laziness in the part I quoted, not about the spiritual variety. :)

Question: If you read for yourself instead of for others, does it make a difference? Do you use less tools?
I ask this because what you wrote in one of the next paragraphs ('diving into umpteen times ..') seems to be mainly about how to explain things to others.
 
M

meng

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Question: If you read for yourself instead of for others, does it make a difference? Do you use less tools?

Good question. I don't use less or more tools when interpreting for someone else, and that's precisely why I no longer offer readings in exchange for mana: Paying customers typically want in depth explanations of how I arrive at my interpretations, and either I don't exactly know or I'm too lazy to explain it. For free, they can take it or leave it. :bows:

Interesting to consider your earlier point of whether using an oracle is a lazy way. I can see that it might be, if not for the additional thought process required to sort out the answers. Also, if answers were not available, I might become too lazy to even ask the questions.
 

Trojina

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The relief for me is in seeing an approach that simplifies interpretation and makes it more genuine.

And I'll tell you something else too. I can't stop noticing the relating hexagram when I consult - too many years of conditioning for that. But I'm now going to stop assuming it's really part of the picture. I'm going to challenge it. For instance, this morning I drew 44.1.2, and up until now I'd assume that 13 was also part of the picture. Well, maybe I don't need to consider 13 at all! Maybe I only have to consider resisting temptation by putting the brakes on and avoiding the temptation to go get the answer out there somewhere. See what I mean? I'm not saying 'Don't you agree?' I'm saying 'Do you understand what I'm talking about now?'

Well not really in answer to your last question (a long time ago now :D ) I think 13 is part of the picture and it does not make things simpler not to take it in to account. See less does not always mean 'more simple'. Think about self assembly furniture - now the authors of the instructions really do think less is more so they give these uselessly brief instructions which don't help and you're still trying to assemble the shelves or whatever 4 hours later. To me not taking into account the relating hexagram is like sawing your answer in half and only looking at one side of it - and then saying its simpler. Its not simpler you just think you have less to think about but it never was more to think about just an integral part of your answer.


Of course do what suits you best at this time - I won't arrest you :eek: but no I don't really see your point cos it makes no sense to me in that i don't see how dropping relating hex makes things any easier, or more 'genuine', although personally I don't much regard it if i have only one line changing in which case that one line to me is paramount. Sometimes i don't take much notice of the relating hex if theres 2 lines changing but theres no rule as to why i don't, just a feeling about where the answer lies for me I guess.

Anyhow yes i realise your're not asking me to agree just saying that you like this new fangled (or old fangled) way of interpreting :mischief:
 

Trojina

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I'm hungry now and can't think straight. Can somebody remind me what the thread was about? :D

Well it serves you right. You used some very long and difficult sentences in an earlier post and strained your brain. Its not good for you Luis !
 

Trojina

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In any case, just to clarify the observations mentioned by Harmen and that I quoted, the formula "Meeting Hexagram1 之 Hexagram2" appears to have been a way to put emphasis on particular lines, the same way we today use "64.1," for example. What Harmen mentions about the non use for the 'derivative hexagram' (please correct me if I'm wrong) is based in that in those same records there is no specific discussion of them as part of the prognostications. Regardless of that fact, IMHO, the absence of "a specific discussion" doesn't deny the possibility that the overall prognostication was perhaps the product of a more holistic approach rather than based on what is specifically recorded. Furthermore, I'm inclined to believe that perhaps this is the argument that crossed Zhu Xi's mind when he proposed his methodology.

The underlined sentence is where I believe your brain over worked Luis. I'm not clever enough to understand it yet anyway - well i get the gist ..I think
 

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