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Primary and relating hexagrams

hilary

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martin said:
Question: If you read for yourself instead of for others, does it make a difference? Do you use less tools?

Yes. Partly it's just that - for instance - I know that 28's at the core of 56, have a feel for this, and don't need to explain it to myself. Partly because I can much more quickly recognise what's relevant, hear what's being said, and know what I'm going to do about it. Partly because when I read for myself it's often about something straightforward, but people tend to reserve paid readings for moments that really need the in-depth work. And partly because of laziness, of whatever variety, no doubt supplemented with a touch of vanity &/or guilt about doing my best.

I thought Luis' double negative was truly elegant, by the way. ;)
 

Sparhawk

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Regardless of that fact, IMHO, the absence of "a specific discussion" doesn't deny the possibility that the overall prognostication was perhaps the product of a more holistic approach rather than based on what is specifically recorded. Furthermore, I'm inclined to believe that perhaps this is the argument that crossed Zhu Xi's mind when he proposed his methodology.

The underlined sentence is where I believe your brain over worked Luis. I'm not clever enough to understand it yet anyway - well i get the gist ..I think

Uh? Sorry... Sometimes I write like a philosopher--sans the credentials... For the real ones--those with PhD after their names--is something commendable and expected; for the rest of mortals, it only shows a confusing and confused mind (even though they may sound identical...) :D

I was referring to what I quoted above from Nielsen's book, and the divination records in the Zuo Zhuan in particular, where the derived/second hexagrams don't seem to be specifically discussed. My idea is that, perhaps, the recorded prognostications in the Zuo Zhuan, the actual advise and conclusions, are based on a wider net of meaning (i.e. perhaps contemplating the second hexagram) even though the recording mentions only the primary hexagram. Does that makes sense?
 

Trojina

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:D yes Luis it makes more sense now. I could make sense of it before but had to contort my face and twist my eyebrows really hard to grasp it. :eek:uch:
 

Sparhawk

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to contort my face and twist my eyebrows really hard to grasp it. :eek:uch:

You mean like:

250px-Jolene_Blalock.jpg


Wow! :D
 

lienshan

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I was referring to what I quoted above from Nielsen's book, and the divination records in the Zuo Zhuan in particular, where the derived/second hexagrams don't seem to be specifically discussed.

Zuo Zhuan: Xi 15 - 644 164/11; 167 - The Zhou Yi (Yi Jing, I Ching) is consulted:

"And Gui Mei’s becoming Kui is the same as our getting no help [from the union]."
plus
"In Gui Mei’s becoming Kui we have a solitary, and an enemy against whom the bow is bent."

To me these lines in link Xi 15 look like a specifically discussed second hexagram ...
 
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dobro p

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:D yes Luis it makes more sense now. I could make sense of it before but had to contort my face and twist my eyebrows really hard to grasp it. :eek:uch:
You mean like:

250px-Jolene_Blalock.jpg


Wow! :D


Oh, man...a straight line aching to be cashed in on.

She can contort her face and twist her eyebrows to grasp it any time she likes.
 

Sparhawk

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:rofl:
 
H

hmesker

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To me these lines in link Xi 15 look like a specifically discussed second hexagram ...

Let's quote Richard Rutt, who dives a little deeper into the subject (p. 154-155):

Changeable lines
There is nothing either explicit or implicit in Zhouyi to suggest that 'changeable lines' were known in Western Zhou. They are not mentioned in the Ten Wings, nor by the Han writer Wang Bi and his follower Han Kangbo (died c385) in their commentaries on Yijing. Kong Yingda, writing during the Tang, does not mention them, but they appear in the writings of Ouyang Xiu in the eleventh century AD. The concept is congenial to the philosophy of change as it developed in the Song period, and may have been influenced by the fact that bian 'change' had come to mean 'interim result in mathematics'. In Chinese a 'changeable line' is denoted by the word zhi, a sign of the genitive or possessive, linking the names of two hexagrams. Zhi also has an alternative meaning, 'to go, to move to'. In the Zuo Commentary, written about the fourth century BC, Hexagram 14 Line 5, for example, is called Dayou zhi Qian, meaning either 'Hexagram 14's Hexagram 1' or 'Hexagram 14 moving to Hexagram 1'. Since Song times at least, zhi has been taken to mean 'moving to' (because changing a line turns one hexagram into another), but some modern scholars believe it originally functioned simply as a genitive particle. The reasons for this opinion can be explained by posing a question: how did early diviners identify or cite a particular line statement? In English we now use numbers, writing 14:5 to mean 'Line Statement 5 of Hexagram 14'; but this method would have been inconceivable in the Spring and Autumn Period or earlier. The Chinese had to find a method involving no numbers. This was not hard, because changing one line of any hexagram created another hexagram. Hence any line could be cited as 'The line of Hexagram A that when changed produces Hexagram B', concisely expressed in Chinese as A zhi B, 'A's B'. For example, Line 5 of Hexagram 14 would be called 'Dayou zhi Qian 'Hexagram 14's Hexagram 1'. Similarly, (...) Dayou zhi Kui 'Hexagram 14's Hexagram 38' means Hexagram 14 Line 3. In some Zuo Commentary stories, line statements are identified in this way without explicit mention of divination, and this looks like confirmation of the genitive function of zhi. Shi zhi Lin, 'Hexagram 7's Hexagram 19' for instance, looks like a simple citation of Hexagram 7 Line 1, with no reference to counting yarrow wands or to a second hexagram. Yet there is some doubt. The Zuo style is famously concise, and in some places where mention of the counting is not made, there is a strong presumption that yarrow wands were in fact counted. Zuo Commentary anecdotes also occasionally tell of diviners giving an interpretation that refers to a second hexagram, without mentioning wand-counting. In these cases, however, the meaning of a single changeable line is not mentioned: the soothsayer makes his prognosis on the basis of the constituent trigrams. Another story certainly contains divination, and there can be no question in it about generating a second hexagram. Two savants discuss the care and nurture of dragons, using Zhouyi as an authoritative text. They refer to:
Qian zhi Gou
'Hexagram I's Hexagram 44' (Hexagram 1 Line 1)
qi Tongren
'its Hexagram 13' (Hexagram 1 Line 5)
qi Dayou
'its Hexagram 14' (Hexagram 1 Line 4)
qi Guai
'its Hexagram 43' (Hexagram 1 Top Line)
qi Kun
'its Hexagram 2' (Hexagram 1 Line 7)
Kun zhi Bo
'Hexagram 2's Hexagram 23' (Hexagram 2 Top Line)
The use of qi 'its' instead of zhi in four of these instances reinforces the argument that zhi was simply a genitive parti
cle. A further argument in favour of zhi being the genitive particle is that in the Zuo Commentary 'changeable' lines are never changed. In every story where a single line statement is taken as the oracle, a changeable line in the base hexagram, rather than a changed line in the second hexagram, is used for this purpose. This happens in 12 of the 16 divinations described. (In the other four the oracles are found in hexagram statements.) On the other hand, the interpretation of the omen sometimes refers to the constituent trigrams of the second hexagram, showing interest in the changing of the whole hexagram rather than of one line.
Completely convincing conclusions cannot be reached. This was frankly acknowledged by Edward Shaughnessy, who f
ïrmly believed that zhi was a genitive particle.

There is something I don't understand. Rutt says here

Another story certainly contains divination, and there can be no question in it about generating a second hexagram. Two savants discuss the care and nurture of dragons, using Zhouyi as an authoritative text.

He says 1. the story he refers to contains divination, and 2. there can be no question in it about generating a second hexagram. But on the page of the story (p. 196) he says 'This passage says nothing about divination', and the story does not say anything significant about second hexagrams. On the contrary, this passage seems to confirm that 之/其 is used in the possessive sense:

周易有之,在乾之姤曰,潛龍勿用,其同人曰,見龍在田,其大有曰,飛龍在天,其夬曰,亢龍有悔,其坤曰,見群龍無首,吉,坤之剝曰,龍戰于野,若不朝夕見,誰能物之.

Am I missing something here?

Harmen.
 

lienshan

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Changeable lines
There is nothing either explicit or implicit in Zhouyi to suggest that 'changeable lines' were known in Western Zhou. They are not mentioned in the Ten Wings, nor by the Han writer Wang Bi and his follower Han Kangbo (died c385) in their commentaries on Yijing. Kong Yingda, writing during the Tang, does not mention them, but they appear in the writings of Ouyang Xiu in the eleventh century AD.

Another quotation from xi 15 of Zuo Zhuan:

Han Jian was by his side and said, "The tortoise shell gives its figures, and the milfoil its numbers.
When things are produced, they have their figures; their figures go on to multiply; that multiplication
goes on to numbers.

I think that this confirms the thoughts of Rutt. Changing lines as we know them today are not original
... the milfoil divination notification was originally made by numbers!

My guess is, that the change of notification was made about 750 BC, because Shaunessey tells, that the Zhouyi texts are written at that time? And the reason why was, that the Zhouyi was written as a popular handy divination manual, easy to read and to handcopy. The pre-Yi six-number-symbols made of 4 numbers written as a book would have contained 4096 six-number-symbols each with texts ...

This too might explain, why nobody can't figure out the king Wen order of the hexagrams, because
it has nothing to do with lines but numbers!!! A strong indication is a 3000 year old pottery pat with
the king Wen hexagram sequence 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 written by numbers:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/attachment.php?attachmentid=399&d=1184489318
 

Sparhawk

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Harmen said:
Completely convincing conclusions cannot be reached. This was frankly acknowledged by Edward Shaughnessy, who fïrmly believed that zhi was a genitive particle.

I don't think you are missing anything. Rutt and/or his editor seem to have missed the apparent contradiction. On the other hand, I'm glad that he acknowledges that convincing conclusions cannot be ascertained. I follow that thought about this issue and steer away from asserting one way or the other. I do like, however, to leave the door open to the possibility that Zhu Xi and Ouyang Xiu had access to texts that have since disappeared, specially after reading Nielsen's book that mentions so many lost works in the brief biographies of so many ancient sages.
 

lienshan

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A quotation from Min 1 of Zuo Zhuan:

At an earlier period, Bi Wan had divined by the milfoil about his becoming an officer of Jin and obtained the diagram Zhun [hex3], and afterwards, by the manipulation, Bi [hex8]. Xin Liau interpreted it to be lucky. "Zhun," he said, "indicates firmness, and Bi indicates entering. What could be more fortunate? He must become numerous and prosperous. Moreover, the symbol Zhen [lower trigram of Zhun] becomes that for the earth [the lower trigram of Bi]. Carriages and horses follow one another; he has feet to stand on; an elder brother’s lot; the protection of a mother, and is the attraction of the multitudes. These six indications [arising from the change of the lowest line in the diagram Zhun] will not change. United, they indicate his firmness; in their repose, they indicate his majesty.

To me the above 660 BC reading looks like a 3.1 to 8 reading in todays Shared Readings Forum ...
 

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