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Pulling a tooth hex 23.3 > 52

arimoshe

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Hi everyone,

Recently a cap fell off of one of my wisdom teeth. I have the option of putting a new filling in it or pulling the tooth. If I fill it again it may fall out again in a few years and also the cavity is so deep it's possible it may have already reached the root. x-ray's are unclear about that.

If i pull it then for sure it'll save me from the possibility of decay -- however even though it's a wisdom tooth it's still pulling a tooth! And I'm not so excited about it. I also wonder if there is another option, like not doing anything... which is what I've been doing as I've been meditating on this.

So I asked for advice about how to approach this and I got Hex 23.3 > 52
Wilhelm's translation:
An individual finds himself in an evil environment to which he is committed by external ties. But he has an inner relationship with a superior man, and through this he attains the stability to free himself from the way of the inferior people around him. This brings him into opposition to them of course, but that is not wrong.

Sometimes 23 is advising "don't do it!" but in this case I can see the strong possibility that it's literally referring to the literal pulling of a tooth.

I asked about filling it and I got 20.1<42. I asked about pulling it and I got 23 unchanging.

Thank you,
Ari Moshe
 

pocossin

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Hexagram 52 as mountain over mountain suggests replacing the cap. If that is not possible, then the filling. I do not understand the dental situation. Why wasn't the wisdom tooth pulled instead of repaired?
 

wind

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Well...

23 is removal.

20.1 is seeing things in an immature way

Could that "immature" way mean that in thinking you get it filled and is all done would be silly with not knowing the condition of the root? That would mean a simple filling becomes a root canal.

From my personal POV, get it pulled. I had a similar situation with the last molar. My wisdom tooth had not come in at that time. I had the molar pulled out and let the wisdom tooth fill in its place.

From my professional POV, don't wait too long and let it become an infection. That would be worse.
 
T

taoscopy

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This is a difficult interpretation without medical background. My first interpretation was that the tooth needed to be removed, but when I validated it with the Yi, I've been shown a different one, so here it goes:


So I asked for advice about how to approach this and I got Hex 23.3 > 52


Okay, there are three interpretations here:

a) don't take care of the tooth
b) remove the tooth
c) go to see another dentist


23 - Erosion

Decline that one can control by using their reserves.

3 - One cannot care for others anymore.
In the making
52 - Stop

One recognizes that it is time to stop because they need to be fed.

I asked about filling it and I got 20.1<42


Three interpretations here:

a) Ask a specialist, someone "who knows".
b) Someone does not know what they are talking about
c) as wind said about the condition of the tooth, you need to look at it first (20)

Improvement shows that the condition can be improved.

20 - View

Going to see and be seen.

1 - Those who know can understand.
In the making
42 - To progress

Looking for what can be improved.

I asked about pulling it and I got 23 unchanging.

23 is the hexagram that describes fatigue, erosion. Don't do that. You would lose money, time and a tooth.

23 - Erosion

Decline that one can control by using their reserves.

With such answers I would consider visiting another dentist.
 
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Trojina

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It's a very clear answer. 23.3 says, from Hilary's book with translation from the I Ching

'Stripping away. No mistake.'


It couldn't be a more perfect answer could it ? It's telling you there is no mistake to strip the tooth away, to have it extracted. Sometimes throwing extra time and money at a tooth that has had it's day is counterproductive. Let it go. Simple.

Your other answers are crystal clear also. You asked about filling it, 20.1. Yi says, fondly I like to imagine, 'don't think like a child'.. If you think filling this will work you aren't using your powers of discrimination. Er also Yi might be saying 'don't be a baby'....because who wants an extraction, we all get scared. However extraction is not so bad. I had a tooth filled/crowned/posted...you name it I had it. Spent loads of money on it and it cracked in the end. Boy was I glad to have it out. I was quite a baby about it, but actually I felt nothing during extraction except pressure and relief after at a nice clean mouth.


Your last answer, 23uc for pulling it, reflects your first of 23.3. 23uc here would mean the demise of the tooth. It's a literal answer. All things must die. It's not bad here, it's just how it is. My car recently packed up, asked about repair, got 23. Well the car was deemed a write off, it died and I got another car.
The mechanic said I could spend a lot of money to fix the car but it may not be effective in the long run...just like your tooth, the obvious solution was to let it die and get a new one (or if it's a tooth leave a gap if you want)

23uc here really does not say anything complicated at all. It is a simple picture of the loss of the tooth.

These answers could not be more clear, really. Have the tooth out.
 

Tim K

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23 is an opposite of 43 [Resolute/break-through, needs action],
speaking of mountain that needs broad base to be able to stand. (The cap has nothing to support it at present).
Also Wilhelm writes: Thus those above can ensure their position
Only by giving generously to those below.


About filling 20.1 → 42, 42 speaks about upper donating to the lower to increase their position.
Also agree with pocossin here, the hexagram images all represent an arch on top of something hollow.
.1 can be a sign to look more closer, at the base/roots, another x-ray?
Or that even from the lowest floors of the tower you can see what the problem is.

42 asks for an increase, a new approach. The opposite is 32 - keep as-is.
I would say go for a new filling, and let another dentist do it with new and better materials.

I would read 23.3 → 52 as stop the splitting apart.

I you remove the tooth - you will have to remove the tooth on the other jaw as well.
I had to remove both lower wisdom teeth and as a consequence - both upper ones too. It was no pain at all, easy ..
 

Trojina

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You don't need to remove the tooth on the other jaw. One can have a bridge fitted for example.

Also I feel here it's good stay with the actual cast of 23.3 which is clear.

About filling 20.1 → 42, 42 speaks about upper donating to the lower to increase their position.

But then you are ignoring the actual answer of 20.1 in favour of part of a commentary about 42. It seems a roundabout way of looking at a very direct reading ?


42 asks for an increase, a new approach. The opposite is 32 - keep as-is.
I would say go for a new filling, and let another dentist do it with new and better materials

Again you are ignoring the actual answer which was 20.1 in favour of 32 which he didn't even get. It's all very well using opposites and so on but not at the expense of the actual answer. Sometimes it seems you look at everything but the actual answer the person got. You haven't even mentioned the meaning of 20.1 which was the answer.


You also haven't looked at 23.3 the line which actually says it is good fortune to break with something.

I'm not intending this as criticism BTW. I appreciate your kind, conscientious and interesting approach. It's just sometimes it seems like here for example you pay little attention to the actual answer received ? Do you ever think it might be worth spending more time on the actual line received ? I'm just wondering why you sometimes don't tend to look at the line someone received.


23.3 says it is good to break with something, to let something go. To me it seems very likely that is the tooth.

However perhaps you're right. It might possibly refer to splitting with those who give the advice to extract ? I guess Arimoshe is best placed to decide which of these possibilities it might be.
 
E

Endless

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It could be also refering to splitting from asking and sitting down to meditate instead.
 

arimoshe

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Oh wow thank you all so much for such engaging feedback and discussion Pocassin, Wind, taoscopy, ashteroid, Trojina and endless. Trojina, I've been following your posts for a long time and I'm so excited to receive your perspective.

Endless, I resonate very much with what you wrote - as I always find in the end that my calling is to get still and look within. I think Trojina's interp is the most intuitive to me, and I have in fact received 23 before in regards to letting things go or die. 23.3 is quite literal in terms of ridding oneself of an inferior element.

Pocassin, what you said also makes sense to me - though how would you reconcile with 20.1? This tooth was capped 3 years ago. At that time the dentist (a different one) even suggested the possibility of pulling it. I chose to cap it. I moved to a new location and my new dentist, upon seeing the cap said that it would be very hard to fill if it fell out. I'm nowin a new location once again and my new dentist (whose also an acupuncturist and one of the coolest, wisest dentists I have ever met - he knows about the meridians of the body that connect with each tooth) says we can cap it or pull it and that his own pov, if it were him, would be to pull it. So everyone I've ever been to has inclined towards the side of pulling it.

I'm going to look within in the end and follow that. Though for the sake of really understanding these readings, I still don't feel I have a grasp on the secondary hexagrams in both readings. In particular the 42 in the "getting it capped". 42 sometimes has to do with correcting what needs to be corrected. What's the negative side of 42? How does it work with 20.1 which is definitely an immature way of looking at things as wind pointed out.
 

Tim K

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@Trojina I did mention 20.1

.1 can be a sign to look more closer, at the base/roots, another x-ray?
Or that even from the lowest floors of the tower you can see what the problem is.

I've looked at 23.3 of course, splitting from them - like split this tooth from others.
But you are ignoring 52 I think. How does it fit here?
I'm more inclined to look at the hexagrams, than at the line, the text for the line was added later.

It's a hard reading for me, I've considered both POV's. (I even did a tarot reading, which have tipped the balance for me.)
Huang's interpretation of 23.3 just mentions someone having a nightmare and turning over while sleeping.

The part about 32 - you didn't understand. I said don't keep it as-is, but change. Meaning change the filling or the cap or dentist or materials or something else. 32 would be to do nothing.

I always appreciate constructive criticism and well argued point of view.


@arimoshe - letting it die, yes that's the key point in 23. Not doing something forceful like in 43, but just letting time do it's work.

But I admit I don't see a clear answer here. If I had I wouldn't be here trying to learn new things.


p.s. Recently I had received 23.3 as a daily reading, and it was in fact about going my own way despite the opinions of others. It was like I was from another planet or something, thinking in a different way.
 
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Trojina

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But you are ignoring 52 I think. How does it fit here?

My view is with one line changing that is the strongest part of the answer and I wouldn't much consider 52 although it must have some relevance I guess. I think I'd look at the whole line pathway which includes the 52. This can give a picture of the inner experience of the line. So here it is

23.3
52.3
51.4
24.4

If you turn 23.3 upside down 24.4 is the paired line. 52.3 is the fan yao (and 51.4 is the paired lineof the fan yao). From this I take it that 23.3 is unlike the experience of 52.3. In 52.3 one is trying not to recognise problems, trying to quash issues. Well in 23.3 one doesn't, one is quite clear what needs to be got rid of. When one is clear what one needs to be separated from one may return to one's own way.


p.s. Recently I had received 23.3 as a daily reading, and it was in fact about going my own way despite the opinions of others. It was like I was from another planet or something, thinking in a different way.

Yes I've certainly known it to manifest as going one's own way, not worrying about if this means spilitting from others. It's a good example of 23.3 I think. Are you in wiki ? If you are I think it's a good experience to add there ?
 

Tim K

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I did look at 52.3.
52.3 speaks of creating stillness by force as a negative thing - meaning not to place the cap or change filling, but to do something else - like removing.

24.4 I was just thinking about it, yes, it's very similar to 23.3. But 24.4 I would take for removal of the tooth.
51 showing brute force, sharp, quick action. And top lines open - removing the cap, leaving cavity.

After more thoughts about 20.1, the problem may not be in a filling (and no one said it is faulty).
It might very well be that only changing of the cap will suffice (as pocossin said, and I agree).

So I think 3rd casting is in order, "What if I only change the cap"?
 

Trojina

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I think 23.3 is really clear all by itself. I find it quite hard to see how you can see 23.3 as 'keep the tooth'.


The line path way is not where one draws advice from, nor is the fan yao, it merely shows sometimes how things might feel. So you cannot take 52.3 as advice here. 52.3 as the fan yao is what the answer is not. Again 24.4 is not part of the actual answer, nor is 52.3 nor is 51.4. They are aspects that might help throw light on 23.3 but 23.3 is the actual answer and' therefore is the most important advice.


The fan yao really never was meant to be taken as the answer. If the answer was 52.3 he would have cast 52.3 but he didn't. When there is a very simple clear answer like this there is no need to go all around the multifarious pathways except out of interest, extra insight, but they aren't advice, they aren't the auspice.

20.1 is about the attitude not the cap. He asked what if he didn't have it out and Yi said 'that would be childlike' or rather 'don't view this as a small person'. I think Yi is addressing the person here, as it generally does IMO.

Arimoshe has to decide in the end how the 23.3 applies here but one line readings are pretty emphatic clear and simple. One line changing focuses quite pointedly on that line so I think that's what the answer is. I can tell you for sure if I had a tooth that was not guaranteed to be okay with a filling, was infected and very decayed and was considering extraction 23.3 would be crystal clear message to have it out. Unless there was someone, a dentist who I felt was giving bad advice, then the 23.3 might apply to splitting from the bad advice I guess.

Because this answer is so crystal clear I see no need for further castings personally.
 
E

Endless

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I'm with Ashteroid here. Extraction is intrusive and it could imply adverse side effects. Remove the intrusion by changing the cap seems a pretty good take.
 

Trojina

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I'm with Ashteroid here. Extraction is intrusive and it could imply adverse side effects. Remove the intrusion by changing the cap seems a pretty good take.

Right so you have nothing to say about the reading ? Extraction is necessary at times, no point just saying 'extraction is intrusive', so is a painful abccess !

Besides you can't 'remove the intrusion' by changing the cap.
 
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Endless

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My excuses.
After reading the thread, according to 23.3 and 42.1, my take is that extraction would be intrusive, so in my humble opinion, changing the cap would be the right thing to do here.
 

Trojina

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Why ? What is it in 23.3 that makes you think changing the cap is a good idea ?

A cap is just a covering. It doesn't remedy a tooth. We are in hexagram 23 here. Superficial reparations are not recommended in hexagram 23.



Also 42.1 was not cast here as far as I can see, I'll check. No 42.1 was not cast. 42.1 is the fan yao of 20.1. The fan yao is not the answer. If 42.1 were the answer then the answer received would have been 42.1.
 
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Endless

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Your suppositions are wrong. I started thinking about the extraction as it seemed the most intuitive approach. But as the thread developped, I found the idea of extraction incorrect. Sorry about 42.1, I wrote rapidly and under the influence of your digression about fan yao and inverted hexagrams.
 

Trojina

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I see. My apologies.


Oh well Good Luck to the tooth whether it leaves Arimoshe's mouth or stays to be re crowned :bows:
 
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Endless

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Theres no point in editing your post in order to superficially repair your mistake and make others seem wrong, also. With all my respect.
 

Trojina

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I haven't edited my post in order to make you look wrong because editing my post doesn't make you look wrong :confused: You hadn't given your take on any of the readings and appeared to just to be chiming in to give an opinion that had no connection to any of the casts. You then explained a little and I apologised. If you want to call that 'superficial' then disregard what I said as superficial.
 

arimoshe

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Alright!

So I've been meditating on these a lot. I always take these readings as an opportunity for reflection, as opposed to looking for the "right" or "wrong" way. The thing that comes up for me most is that it feels the most logical and intuitive to pull the wisdom tooth because: there's already a giant cavity in it, I'd probably need to fill it again the future, possibility of root decay now or later. Yet my resistance to this is I'm so dam attached to it. I love my teeth and my wisdom teeth came in so well. I hate the idea of altering any part of my body. So I realize it's pride and attachment and also a feeling of "dammit I failed. Now I gotta pull this tooth" that keeps me from taking that path.. like I'm personally identified with the loss of this tooth.

... and THAT is so much about what 23 is about. Needing to reconcile with things ending.
I still don't fully understand 52 but my sense right now is that it was inviting to focus on the matter at hand. To not become distracted. I find 52 isn't just about stillness and meditation, it's also about concentration - to see things through completion without getting side tracked. (I also wonder if 52 is a reference to the wisdom tooth itself ??)

Regarding capping it, it's undoubtedly clear to me that 20.1 is speaking to the immaturity of that choice / my outlook in considering that choice. My motivation for capping it is because I want to keep the tooth. It would solve the problem and allow me to keep the tooth. Yet there are dangers with it as stated above. 20.1 is also specifically about lacking foresight. The related hexagram 42 still confuses me. Don't see that clearly yet.

So anyway with all of this reflection underway I asked 2 new questions today focusing specifically on if either option will be ultimately beneficial to my overall health. My health, what serves the greatest good for my overall healing is the most important thing to me.

Pulling the tooth: 38.4.6>19
Capping the tooth: 29.3>38

Once again I feel inclined towards pulling it. Though I'm going to allow a little more time to meditate on this and crystallize my decision. Line 6 of hex 38 especially seems to encourage that it'll be healthy for me.
29.3 sounds horrible!

Thanks everyone for your lively discussion and insights.
 

ginnie

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Since a lot of work has been done on the old, imperfect wisdom tooth, and that work has fallen out, I'd say to go ahead and pull the tooth, as there is little that can be done for it anymore. Wisdom teeth are often viewed more as nuisances in our mouth, you know. An extraction of a wisdom tooth would be over 1-2-3. I agree with Trojina's interpretation of 23.3 and I agree that the reading is clearly saying to remove that old tooth.
 
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Endless

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Trojina and everyone in this thread. Appart from the specific question around pulling teeht or leaving it, I have to say something that I consider important for the future understanding of my takes. Since I deeply dismiss lies, I'm in the need to warn you, Trojina, that the next time you do it I will have to report it. I'm so sorry about any misunderstanding my incomplete knowledge of english or IC lectures can cause, but lies are those things I don't stand in a serious discussion.
 

Trojina

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I really have no idea what 'lies' you refer to but urge you to report my post now rather than 'warn' me. I have no idea what you warn me of so your warning is completely ineffective. I will report your post anyway as you are accusing me. The procedure is always to report the post rather than accuse me here. I think you are disrupting this thread so please use the report button. I have now reported your post and your false accusations so do go head and report your grievance so that the tooth and the reading can go on being discussed without disruption. I already apologised for misunderstanding you so there is not much more I can do.

You did appear to be showing up here just to make random comments against my interpretation with no interpretation of your own. I found that irritating and was sharp with you. I then realised you had thought about it and apologised. Whatever happened there were no lies. Also if you do disagree with someone when they have taken the trouble to write a fairly extensive interpretation as I had it really would be good if you could some give Yi related reasons. My only fault with you as I see it was to become irritated at your brief comment after I had put effort into the reading. It was for that expressed irritation which I could have held back I apologised to you. I did not tell any lies though. When I did apologise you called it 'superficial'. I don't apologise on a superficial level and you were quite rude about my apology. Therefore if you still have issues do use the report button as I have with your post.

Oh if you think deleting comments is 'lies' no it isn't. It means I regretted saying something so removed it then apologised. I really don't see there's much more I can do.
 
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Tim K

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Tiny remark: 29.3 leads to 48

Hmm yet again we have a theme of one standing alone, opposed to others 38.4.
I think Yi is pointing to Arimoshe's thoughts and feelings.
I do feel the same about my body and teeth, treating every loss, every intrusion as a personal failure.

Now, 29.3 clearly says [Wilhelm]:
Forward and backward, abyss on abyss.
In danger like this, pause at first and wait,
Otherwise you will fall into a pit in the abyss.
Do not act this way.


Dig deeper, there is something else, free for all (48, as opposed to 21 some obstruction/limit).

So yeah, let your feelings and stubbornness go(38.4 → 41.6 → 19) and approach the dentist, the solution of removal.

So the key to original 23 seems to be about the context of Arimoshe's feelings then.
 
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Trojina

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I do feel the same about my body and teeth, treating every loss, every intrusion as a personal failure.

But this is crazy isn't it ? Does growing old and infirm mean someone failed ? We all will die, parts of the body wear out. It is nothing to have any shame over. Indeed I regard it as the worst of new age thinking, 'new age fascism' I call it, this idea one can control one's body to remain perfect and those who cannot somehow 'failed'. (ETA I say 'fascism' because there can be seen some kind of correlation IMO between the Nazis who believed physical imperfection was a failing and some extreme right wing forms of new age thought, not all new age thought but some)

23 itself shows this cannot be so. All that is made of material substance, wood, metal, flesh and bone, all this is subject to decay and change. This is why we have the 'book of change', to help us ride these sometimes painful changes.

Wisdom teeth are notoriously problematic. What is more they aren't even a great deal of use. I had all 4 wisdom teeth removed under general anaesthetic years ago. They were growing sideways into my jaw so it was necessary. It doesn't cause me any problem to have no wisdom teeth. Afterall they don't even show up till one's early twenties. I still have a mouth full of useful teeth.

Really is taking a wisdom tooth out so intrusive or such a big deal ? It certainly cannot be regarded as a 'failure' IMO. If one regarded bodily perfection as a triumph, well that would be a triumph of the ego. How would that reflect on those who are disabled and so on. I think one must not identify perfection with the physical body. I think one must have the humility to realise, as is self evident, that we all must
face all the conditions of change being in the physical body brings.

Having a baby could be said to be 'intrusive'....well our bodies are interactive with the world. It is not a spiritual triumph to keep a decaying and useless wisdom tooth when we have the technology to remove it relatively painlessly. It is not a moral failing to have a wisdom tooth out.


I do understand it can feel this way, especially when young. But this is just a decayed tooth. You can still get to heaven if you have it out Arimoshe ;)
 
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Trojina

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So the key to original 23 seems to be about the context of Arimoshe's feelings then.

Well sort of but it was also very literal. Things decay and die. In 23 one does not attempt remedy one must let go. The oracle from Hilary's book 'Stripping away, Fruitless to have a direction to go.' Everything that is made, built up, grown, must erode away. Here that would be the actual tooth which is eroding away. 23.3 says 'stripping away, no mistake' (H's book) So Yi shows the tooth as eroding away then says to strip it away, to have it extracted, is actually not a mistake. Seems very clear. 20.1 was more about the feelings I think.

This is possibly the longest thread on one tooth we have ever had.

Even if the tooth dies and is stripped away it will remain in the annals of Clarity history.


In CC we once considered an entire dental sub forum for dental readings. We also have a member who is an actual dentist. The forum didn't happen but it might.

To the tooth that held on this long :bows:
 

arimoshe

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Thanks Ashteroid and Trojina.
"Even if the tooth dies and is stripped away it will remain in the annals of Clarity history."
That's hillarious! I may be loosing a tooth but I am certainly gaining some wisdom (-;

How do you say thank you for an individual post btw?
 

Trojina

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Of course the other thing about losing wisdom teeth is I hear it gives you a more attractively chiselled facial bone structure. Apparently the film stars of the 1940s used to have their wisdom teeth out so they could get that nice distinguished hollow at the side of the face to emphasise the cheek bones. I don't know if this is actually true but it was a story I clung to when I had mine out.


How do you say thank you for an individual post btw?

Ah, now, this is a rite of passage. It is written in the annals of Clarity something like this ;

"No person shall command the 'Thanks' button until they hath made the 11th post. When that 11th post hath been made there shall be granted unto them the use of the 'Thanks' button from then until eternity or until Clarity is flung forth into the Great Void. "



No one knows why this should be. It just is. Make a few more posts and you will have use of the thanks button.
 

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