questions on divination

[fkegan]

Frank, I think the Yi gave you a great answer. I'm sure that if I posed the same question I'd get a different answer. The Yi is different things to different people. Apart from consulting about ongoing situations I have questions like this running around in my mind and then one day I feel that it is the right moment to ask - the right moment in the sense that I really feel I want to ask that question at that presice moment,

Oh El_2, there you go again. The question I asked was not for me, it was what would the Yi reply if you managed to actually cast the oracle. Or in the alternative, are you sure you would get a different answer? When I have done oracle readings for folks new to the Yi, they often assume that attitude and sometimes they cast the oracle again and get exactly the same line pattern, which they found quite impressive. Even when they got a different answer, the oracle's import was the same.

Is there a precise, right moment or just a time when one is willing to finally listen to what has been there all the time?

Frank

 

[hilary]

You can certainly cast a hexagram on behalf of someone else who is asking the question, at their request. I do plenty of this, of course, and naturally it works beautifully. That's not at all the same thing as asking on behalf of someone who isn't asking, and didn't make the request.

I do like the answer, though. Opposition's clarity, differences of vision clearly perceived.

 

[Trojina]

You can certainly cast a hexagram on behalf of someone else who is asking the question, at their request. I do plenty of this, of course, and naturally it works beautifully. That's not at all the same thing as asking on behalf of someone who isn't asking, and didn't make the request.

:

Thats what I was getting at in the podcast comment. Seemed to me you asked about money on behalf of people who didn't make the request. As i didn't make the request i couldn't accept the answer for myself. Not wanting to interrupt this thread just seemed an opportune moment to clarify that as you didn't seem to see my point..yet you are making that same point here

 

[hilary]

Well, yes, I do seem to be making a similar point. Of course this is all a misapprehension on your part, which I'll explain just as soon as I've worked out what it is.



Um. Isn't there a difference between asking 'what does Trojan need to understand about money?' and asking for a group?

Do you think it's possible for any reading to have relevance for a group? Eg if half a dozen people got together and agreed a question to ask on behalf of the group, would they all own the answer?

And if 'yes', then does it make a difference if they decide to 'own' it before or after it's cast?

Methinks this is a very grey area. I've definitely got benefit before now from some people's 'universal'-type readings - found they were definitely talking to me. And I dare say there would also be some that weren't - maybe depending on topic, or question phrasing, or mindset of person asking, or who-knows-what.

All very woolly, sorry - brain power fizzled out for the day. I'm still very, very open to suggestions for other podcast features that would wind you up less. Or at least in different ways .

 

[fkegan]

When is a Yi question public and when is it cast even if not thrown?

You can certainly cast a hexagram on behalf of someone else who is asking the question, at their request. I do plenty of this, of course, and naturally it works beautifully. That's not at all the same thing as asking on behalf of someone who isn't asking, and didn't make the request.

I do like the answer, though. Opposition's clarity, differences of vision clearly perceived.

Hi Hilary,
Perhaps a quick review of the context will help clarify things for you.

Maybe one of these days I should put the question to the Oracle: "Who are you, anyway?"

This clearly was a question asked explicitly and posted (published) with only the Oracle outcome left to some day. By traditional rules of equity, asking the question publicly sets the process in motion, and since the original question was about me, it was for me to choose to answer or wait for one of these days.

Though clearly you do address some relevant issues of interpreting specific oracles in a group, as Trojan seems in the midst of pointing out to you. If you are feeling lost in the grey area, I would suggest casting the Yi and exploring it with us all, as you have involved everyone in your issue here--though I would not throw coins to cast the Oracle for you. That for me is the equitable distinction of the two examples.

Frank

 

[el_2]

Frank

Sorry, I didn't realize. You know, I often browse this site when I'm at work (it is my favourite past-time at work) and sometimes I get interrupted (work) so I miss some things. Thanks for casting the Oracle. I'll have to think about the answer more deeply then.

And, I'm not sure I'd get a different answer if you'd cast it for yourself and then I cast it for myself. But there is a chance that I would and there'd definitely be an explanation for the difference.

I do like the answer too but you've given me work to do (try to see what different interpretations might apply etc.) Exciting!

el_2

 

[hilary]

...If you are feeling lost in the grey area...

Oh no, don't worry about that. I feel entirely at home and comfortable in grey areas.

 

[Trojina]

Well, yes, I do seem to be making a similar point. Of course this is all a misapprehension on your part, which I'll explain just as soon as I've worked out what it is.



Um. Isn't there a difference between asking 'what does Trojan need to understand about money?' and asking for a group?

If Trojan is part of the group and you are asking on behalf of the group then logically that includes 'what does Trojan need to know' doesn't it ?

Do you think it's possible for any reading to have relevance for a group? Eg if half a dozen people got together and agreed a question to ask on behalf of the group, would they all own the answer?

And if 'yes', then does it make a difference if they decide to 'own' it before or after it's cast?

Yes I think a reading can be relevant to a group. The nub of it is their agreement I think, but also they have to elect who they choose to ask on their behalf. If i haven't elected someone to ask on my behalf I don't own their answer. I think it makes an essential difference that they decide to own it before the casting, for that, in effect is their agreement and appointment of someone as their diviner in that instance.

Methinks this is a very grey area. I've definitely got benefit before now from some people's 'universal'-type readings - found they were definitely talking to me. And I dare say there would also be some that weren't - maybe depending on topic, or question phrasing, or mindset of person asking, or who-knows-what.

All very woolly, sorry - brain power fizzled out for the day. I'm still very, very open to suggestions for other podcast features that would wind you up less. Or at least in different ways .

Its just a personal view. I never take anyones universal answer for myself if i haven't elected them to do so. To me it seems a sort of presumption on their part to think they can hand to me wisdom about life in general from their reading. I can get alot of wisdom from their universal or personal readings if they are asking for themselves, its when they extend this to be the truth for me, as if it were my reading, that i disown it.

I need to say I don't think you are presumptious at all nor that anyone who ever does this is, its just my personal view about this particular act in divination...I don't think anyone ever did it with the intention of being presumptious at all. Its hard to express this view without sounding annoyed or wound up, but I'm not at all. I was just giving my view on it so :



Henceforth, I , Trojan, publicly declare I disown any universal, general or personal reading made on my behalf as a member of a group or as an individual without my prior consent and approval rofl



As for the podcasts I don't mind at all if you continue to ask universal questions. Personally disowning them does not spoil my enjoyment of them at all.


However if as a group we decide on a question and you ask for us and do a podcast that would be really good Perhaps I'll hot foot it over to reading circle to throw a few suggestions in. We may have to do a ceremony to appoint you as our diviner for that question though

 

[hilary]

If Trojan is part of the group and you are asking on behalf of the group then logically that includes 'what does Trojan need to know' doesn't it ?

Only if Trojan says she's part of this group. Since I'm just sending this out into the ether (well, the Itunes store... that probably counts as ether), the 'group' is a nebulous and probably self-defining thing.

Interestingly enough, when I started doing phone readings and got Stephen Karcher's advice on how to go about it (I was very nervous about the whole thing!), he mentioned that he specifically asks his clients if he may cast the hexagram on their behalf. A kind of empowering/ authorising thing. I've got into the habit of doing the same, in my own informal way, for those who don't cast their own. Most people think it weird, but it feels good to ask anyway.

 

[Sparhawk]

Henceforth, I , Trojan, publicly declare I disown any universal, general or personal reading made on my behalf as a member of a group or as an individual without my prior consent and approval rofl

Heck no!! You are in the bag, sorry. Everybody is. Besides, Hilary wrote this in Twitter the other day: The I Ching lets you see people as they are. 4:23 AM Oct 21st from web

MMMWAHAHAHA!!!

(now you know why I play crazy most of the time: I'm trying to preempt anybody from questioning the Yi about me... )

 

[Trojina]

Interestingly enough, when I started doing phone readings and got Stephen Karcher's advice on how to go about it (I was very nervous about the whole thing!), he mentioned that he specifically asks his clients if he may cast the hexagram on their behalf. A kind of empowering/ authorising thing. I've got into the habit of doing the same, in my own informal way, for those who don't cast their own. Most people think it weird, but it feels good to ask anyway.

Yes I'd assume that was essential.