Relations with oldest son

[becalm]

We've always had a fairly contentious relationship and had a few fallouts over the years but this time it's been 18 months. My choice. He's never been a nice person - manipulative and mentally abusive. His wife is the same and I worry for my 3 grandchildren long term.

Personally I can't imagine reconnecting with them ever again because they would never consider themselves at fault.

What do I need to know about my relationship with him

Hex 19.1>7
I won't be reaching out or open for discussion UNLESS I can see a significant genuine reaching out.

 

[diamant]

What do I need to know about my relationship with him 19.1 > 7
He and his family are all united as in an army.
You won't be dealing just with one person, but with many.
If you try to approach, for the sake of your grandchildren, they'll attack you en masse.
Where both parents are nasty, they always brainwash and lie to their children.
They'll certainly have badmouthed you terribly to the kids

 

[becalm]

Sounds about right. I also think my middle son is trying to reconcile, in himself, the tainted version his brother portrays me as, as opposed to his own relationship with me. Thank you

 

[becalm]

A funny thing (I think).
Today I started culling a lot of stuff from the kids childhood that I'd been storing for when I had grandchildren. I never gave them to the grandchildren I do have because they haven't been taught to care or be responsible for things and a lot of the time my sons wife has given presents I've given the kids away and that's not nice.
I sent a photo to my other 2 boys of some of stuff to see if they wanted to keep them.
About an hour later one of them tells me my estranged son is sending me something in the post.

What do I need to know about the post my son is sending to me
Hex 38.2.4.5>42
Is he actually trying to reach out?? He could send me an email if he's got something to say so I'm very curious.

 

[diamant]

Is he actually trying to reach out?
Perhaps best to give up hope on this, otherwise you'll keep getting hurt. Even if he does reach out, it won't be for good. People never change from unkind/uncaring to kind/caring (or vice versa)... they seem to remain either one or the other, if they're above 4-5 years old that is.

What do I need to know about the post my son is sending to me 38.2.4.5 > 42
Something small and narrow (38.2), something old (38.4), which is leather or contains meat (!?) (38.5), and which you'll find useful (42)?

 

[becalm]

Yes that's right - if he was really looking for change he would find a way to communicate directly.

Possibly something I left behind at his place when I was there for Christmas 2019 - a couple of times I've thought oh where is that....probably left it there.

 

[diamant]

Let us know what it was when you get it, so curious now.

 

[becalm]

Let us know what it was when you get it, so curious now.

Hahaha of course:!! Me too.....

 

[becalm]

Update,: The letter arrived today with news telling me of their plans to travel overseas to spread the word of God along with some photos of the kids.
The last 2 paragraphs however were vitriolic telling me I need to sort out my mental health issues apart from anything else. So so sad for him.

 

[diamant]

Oh dear... so sorry to hear this sad outcome becalm.
I'll revisit your last reading then:

• Something small and narrow (38.2) = his brain
• something old (38.4) = god? or maybe it refers to the old issues between you?
• leather or contains meat (38.5) = actually this is him biting you ferociously
• which you'll find useful (42) = this either means that it fulfils him to attack you, or, that it's to your benefit to see how vile he truly is

 

[Hepzibah]

wondering if there is any way around this.
Have you heard of the haiwaiann mantra 'ho'oponopono'?
Its to break down negative energy blocks / old thought patterns .
you think of the person / situation and then say it silently or quietly repeatedly as you go about your day.
it goes:
i love you
i am sorry
please forgive me
thankyou.

There is lots on the internet about this.

 

[diamant]

@Hepzibah it's her son who should be doing that.
But he won't, because sadly he is an unkind, uncaring person.
Advising a victim of abuse to say 'I'm sorry, please forgive me' is wrong and dangerous.

 

[Hepzibah]

Diamant, you are misinterpreting the way this works.
It doesnt segregate, ie victim / perpetrator / blame etc.
It simply works on clearing energy blocks, thought patterns that have built up over time.
it taps into higher emotions, for example unconditional love, forgiveness, gratitude.

 

[Hepzibah]

ps becalm could cast to YI if ho'oponpono would be of benefit to her with this situation..meant to put that in first email

 

[becalm]

Oh dear... so sorry to hear this sad outcome becalm.
I'll revisit your last reading then:

• Something small and narrow (38.2) = his brain
• something old (38.4) = god? or maybe it refers to the old issues between you?
• leather or contains meat (38.5) = actually this is him biting you ferociously
• which you'll find useful (42) = this either means that it fulfils him to attack you, or, that it's to your benefit to see how vile he truly is

Yes pretty accurate diamant - I took 38.2 as the envelop it came in but his brain works as well and agree with 38.5 and felt the same thing about this line when I read the letter.
It's super useful (42) to me to know how he feels and that his behaviour hasn't changed at all despite the estrangement. I'd already come to terms that things will never be how healthy and positive they could be with him and that it's most likely he'll never be part of my life so the letter didn't upset me as much as it could have if I was expecting him to be benevolent.

 

[becalm]

wondering if there is any way around this.
Have you heard of the haiwaiann mantra 'ho'oponopono'?
Its to break down negative energy blocks / old thought patterns .
you think of the person / situation and then say it silently or quietly repeatedly as you go about your day.
it goes:
i love you
i am sorry
please forgive me
thankyou.

There is lots on the internet about this.

Thank You Hepzibah - I'm very familiar with 'ho'oponopono and it's helped me on more than one occasion.
I hold no malice or animosity towards my son (or anyone else for that matter). What he holds in his Heart towards me or his overall life has got absolutely nothing to do with me and I don't take it on board.

Yes I have PTSD but again that's not on anyone else, that's on me to manage in the best way I know how.

 

[becalm]

@Hepzibah Advising a victim of abuse to say 'I'm sorry, please forgive me' is wrong and dangerous.

Agreed - luckily I've overcome a lot and am a strong person now BUT others who've had similar experiences may not cope with your suggestion at all. You don't know the history or either party.

 

[Hepzibah]

Agreed - luckily I've overcome a lot and am a strong person now BUT others who've had similar experiences may not cope with your suggestion at all. You don't know the history or either party.

Got it ! I regretted afterwards that i posted this as it was not connected to your reading !

let's move on...

 

[becalm]

Of course....I know you were only wanting the best outcome for me.

 

[Hepzibah]

Of course....I know you were only wanting the best outcome for me.

Absolutely . In my book there is always hope I have an eldest son also. Best of luck .

 

[rosada]

19.1-7 now reads like a description of your son feeling he has something to teach people (19) about how they should get themselves together and organize their lives (7). Have you asked the I Ching about a response? 38-42 describes siblings who share a home but must ultimately differentiate from their family and head out on their own. Perhaps if you do decide to answer his letter that is what you should emphasize, like, "Thank you so much for the pictures. I'm so sorry you had such a rough time with me. I hope with God's help you will be able to forgive me. Wishing you and the family all good as you head out on your wonderful adventure."

I wrote the above before reading the various comments about whether it is appropriate to ask for forgiveness when you don't feel you have done anything to be forgiven for. My own experience has been that saying "I'm sorry, please forgive me" is helpful, even when the accusations may be completely without merit.

 

[diamant]

@rosada a proper apology should include the mistake you made and are now acknowledging.
For example, "I'm sorry that I spread false rumours about you, it was wrong".

Just saying I'm sorry is inadequate - you need to specify which act of yours you now regret.
So what if becalm says 'sorry', and the son asks her to specify which act of hers she considers a mistake?
What then? Will she need to make up a fake mistake?

 

[rosada]

"I'm sorry you had such a rough time with me" is acknowledging her son's pain and she can be genuinely sorry his experience was hard. Showing this empathy is important. Many times people will deny the other person's experience and say something like "Oh grow up!" and so communication shuts down and energies stay stuck.

But also, in reality sometimes just an "I'm sorry" is good, and maybe even better for not tacking on a specific reason. If they hurt and they think you caused it, tell them you're sorry. Later on you may want to explain your side of the story but even if you feel you were totally justified in your actions that's not the issue. If you accidentally knocked someone down and they are hurt would it be more helpful to say "I'm sorry" or "Don't go blaming me, it was an accident"?

Do you have kids? If not, I'll tell you, eventually they all seem to get around to telling us where we totally blew it. It's almost always a shock to us so it's hard to apologize (like what I got from my daughter on why I was such an awful parent: "You let me sneak out of the house when you were asleep!") but if you let them get it off their chests and just keep saying, "Wow, I'm so sorry, thank you for telling me, I'll try to do better" they seem to settle down and start acknowledging that maybe, just maybe you weren't the absolute worst parent on the planet and maybe they might have had a teeny bit to do with the problem. Anyway, the kid is going out to save the world so why not send him off with a warm fuzzy? He's got kids of his own so you know his karma is coming...

 

[Trojina]

Got it ! I regretted afterwards that i posted this as it was not connected to your reading !

let's move on...

Well someone needed to say something because otherwise 19.1 is being made to mean 'cut off all ties with your son he is a bad person'...referencing diamant

Is he actually trying to reach out?
Perhaps best to give up hope on this, otherwise you'll keep getting hurt. Even if he does reach out, it won't be for good. People never change from unkind/uncaring to kind/caring (or vice versa)... they seem to remain either one or the other, if they're above 4-5 years old that is.

But this isn't some stranger he's her son. The readings don't say anything about giving up hope. I was concerned reading this thread because this is a mother son relationship whatever has happened between them you can't just write it off as 'people' never changing

He could have not bothered to write to her at all but he did. He also sent her photos of the children. That act seems to me to speak at least of the fact he wants to share what he knows will bring her some joy.

He may well be an unpleasant person, that's what we've been told, but I don't think the I Ching can be used as basis here to advise there is no hope for this relationship. After all there's years yet and people can change and this isn't any old casual relationship it's a very important one for both parties whatever they think of each other and however long they are estranged they will still be mother and son.


So while Hepzibah's comment wasn't connected to the reading I think it was more connected than she realised for 19.1. I also think it was good advice and who cares about the reading. If one person says a reading means a son is a bad person and he will never change then I think we are better off without the reading.

 

[diamant]

From what I've read over time in becalm's posts, it sounds to me like her son has been an abusive petty bully towards her for years. I personally have zero tolerance and I do not keep any bullies in my life.

Becalm would be the best person to know for sure if her son is indeed an abusive bully or not, and it's her decision alone what to do with him. I suggested giving up hope that he will change because, in my experience, abusive bullies never change. I would personally cut ties - that doesn't mean becalm has to do as I would. It's of course totally her personal decision.

 

[Trojina]

Your POV is valid, as a friend of becalm, as someone who supports and knows her but...

What do I need to know about my relationship with him 19.1 > 7
He and his family are all united as in an army.
You won't be dealing just with one person, but with many.
If you try to approach, for the sake of your grandchildren, they'll attack you en masse.
Where both parents are nasty, they always brainwash and lie to their children.
They'll certainly have badmouthed you terribly to the kids

I don't see that all that comes from 19.1. And of course you can't be certain they have bad mouthed her to the kids.

From what I've read over time in becalm's posts, it sounds to me like her son has been an abusive petty bully towards her for years. I personally have zero tolerance and I do not keep any bullies in my life.

Yes though I don't know what 'abusive' consists of here, it's not physical abuse it sounds more like he has quite a fixed idea of what is 'wrong' with his mother, he thinks she has mental health problems she should get help with and she feels much diminished by that. I'm sure there's much more I don't know. The thing is can we really say 19.1 here means she should just write him off ?


I'd like to think there is always the possibility of love between them, there is always surely that possibility isn't there ? I mean there's grandchildren to consider so keeping some kind of relationship with the son, however flawed, seems quite important and from wiki, 19.1 says

'Influence nearing.
Constancy, good fortune.'

I cannot see how that can be turned into everyone ganging up and badmouthing her and so on. I do see that you are concerned she doesn't get hurt again though.

What do I need to know about the post my son is sending to me
Hex 38.2.4.5>42
Is he actually trying to reach out?? He could send me an email if he's got something to say so I'm very curious

I think he is reaching out by that cast yes, well 'reaching out' in the way he knows how to at this point. 38 showing you have very different perspectives here and I wonder if you need some time alone with him by 38.2.


You know the situation best but I think others have stepped in here because it's such a pity to give up on it completely.

 

[becalm]

Thank you for all stepping in here to give me your thoughts and guidance Yi or otherwise - you've all helped me over the years and whilst it took me a long time to start sorting myself out I feel I'm winning at life now.

The bottom line is, for whatever reason, I was born into a family that devalued me from as young as 2 years old and my oldest son appears to want to continue with that 'theme'. He had a lot to do with my family as a young child through his father whilst I was shunned by them, so he's been fed a lot of negativity about me from a very early age.
I too used to believe subconsciously everything my mother and family believed about me and never valued myself either hence why most of my posts on here are of very troubling (to me) situations.
Christmas of 2019 I'm guessing I'd just had enough which is when I decided I really needed to walk away from toxic people, including family, and give myself to myself.
During the last 18 months I've still 'walked' into toxic situations and battled with myself about how best to deal with these recurring happenings in my life. The difference now is they're short lived but mostly it's more in how I handle them and see the red flags and certainly how I feel about myself.

I'm halfway through my 61st year now and at a guess I'd say at the most I've another 30 years to live. I don't want to waste them fighting with or against people who don't value me as I now value myself and unfortunately my eldest son is one of them.
I've also realised that whilst my family and him in particular believe I'm the problem and it's all about me it's got absolutely nothing to do with me but what's in their Hearts.
No doubt I've still got many Life lessons to learn but hopefully at a lot less intense level.

I did respond to his letter via email thanking him for giving me clarity on how he feels and wishing him luck with his new mission. I hold no malice towards him nor anyone else because all it does is mess up your own value system. The last lesson my mother taught me was not to die with bitterness in your Heart like she did.

I think the first cast of 19.1 means that the good fortune of the influence nearing is that the letter gave me clarity into what's what and I can make informed decisions from there.

The second cast of 38>42 is the same as the first cast - Our opposing viewpoints have again increased the value of myself. It certainly shows he'd like to have a relationship with me but only if I continue to look at things from his own value system and that I take 100% accountability for problems we have.

 

[Hepzibah]

I had a look back at 19.1 and feel without any doubt that it is suggesting to keep the doors open.

H

 

[rosada]

I look at 19.1 "Influence nearing" as pointing out that our influence is only barely starting out and 7. The Army as describing how like a sargent with his troops we each have our own individual circle of influence. As a comment on your son, it could be a reference to his intending to begin influencing others with his religious beliefs and perhaps a warning that he's rather new at this so he might be inclined to demand others fallow his orders

 

[becalm]

I had a look back at 19.1 and feel without any doubt that it is suggesting to keep the doors open.

H

They're not closed but they're certainly not open to toxicity either. It's not a black and white dynamic but unless I kotow to how he'd like the relationship to be, which I did for about 20 years, there is no sign of resolution at this point.