Repeated 64

[lightofdarkness]

As for 'new beginnings' etc and 64 - the skeletal form of 64 is 54 and IT covers a sense of immaturity that can be associated with the young and so 'new' - IOW the association with 64 in its fullest form of expression is incorrect and is the association of 54 with 'before completing' (64) but its skeletal form DOES have that association as a VAGUE feeling.

IOW the association is peripheral to rather than centred on 64. IOW it is 'acceptable' as a small part of the whole whereas it was presented as if the whole.

To add to the above 'spectrum' here is part of the page on 64 (for some reason many have an issue with following links!...):

"WEI CHI -

WEI : temporal negative; incomplete, has not occured...

CHI : cross a river at a ford or shallow place; overcome an obstacle, embark on a course of action; help, relieve, cease. The ideogram: water and level, running smooth over a flat bottom."ERANOS p665



Trigrams : containment (bottom), direction (top) : with/from containment comes direction. [fire over water]

The mud from which 64 has emerged is best described by analogy to the under-stated qualities of hexagram 54, immaturing

As a marker of context, where context acts to PUSH instincts, 64 'demands' a preferred response of the qualities of hexagram 63, after completion, closure.

In the binary sequence hexagram 64 pairs with hexagram 40.
This pairing reflects an overall focus on relaxed structure where the relaxation in 64 can lead to an 'error' occuring, and so an increase in tension, whereas relaxation in 40 leads to a release of tension.

In the binary sequence hexagram 64 opposes hexagram 63.
This pairing reflects the differences in (a) remaining open (64) vs (b) focusing on closure and 'correct' ordering (63).

At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the WATER trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 29, the focus upon containment and control, 'opposes' hexagram 64, remaining 'open', 'mis-containing'. The issue here is on the degree, where 29 has a 'wide' boundary of yin/yang differentiations, it is clearly 'water', whereas 64 is tighter, more mixed in yin/yang differentiations where we have the opposite of water, fire, present in the top trigram position. As such, the exaggerated sense of avoiding closure/making 'small' errors, is reflected in a more balanced format through the use of containment/control. (this also gets into the issue of 'pure water' - 29 - versus water coming-up against fire (64). As such one would assume that the ordering is 'wrong', surely the exaggeration is in water vs the balanced of 64? no. as we move into the realm of integration so the exaggeration of a quality is in fact an exaggeration of integration and so 29 is correctly mapped to the more 'balancing', if becoming a little over-balancing, agent in this relationship)

In the traditional sequence hexagram 64 pairs with hexagram 63.

MIXING:

63 : mixing - through closure, completion, correct sequence; 63 completion, closure, comes from a context described by hexagram 53 - maturing

64 : mixing - through open, non-closure, incorrect sequence; 64 non-completion, remain open comes from a context described by hexagram 54 - immaturing

In the traditional sequence hexagram 64 opposes hexagram 01.

This pairing of 01/64 reflects the absolute differences between pure/individual expression and mixed/group expression. As such, when compared to hexagram 01, hexagram 64 reflects incompleteness but also the benefits of remaining open and the overall sense of 'groupness', and so of mixing (reflected in the yin/yang line orderings as well).

The generic properties of hexagram 64 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 40 with the generic properties of hexagram 54.
A combination of relaxed structuring (40) combined with issues of immaturity (54) is reflected in issues of remaining open (avoid closure) and 'incorrect ordering'.

In the variations on a theme sequence, hexagram 64 complements hexagram 38.

Chris.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Clarissa, my perspective is 'different' to what appears to be your 'traditional' path so all I can suggest is to pose your questions on the ICPlus questions pages (links given previously) - what that will do is give the context of the situation and from there, using the XOR material, give you an idea of how that context will 'push' you and develop itself.

That said, the above posts covering the structure etc of 64 may also help you in understanding what buttons it pushes.

Chris.

 

[void]

I really think Jesed sees 64 in a light which makes alot more sense to me than it did before. I always wondered why 63 was completion and 64 after completion, when sequentially it should be other way around. In 63 something is completed so something new can begin in 64. 64 has begun something new after completion of 63. 64 has begun something new after something else has been completed, but it hasn't finished yet. Well it makes sense to me.

Chris I don't see you in any position to 'correct' Jesed, only in a position to have a differing point of view, thats all.

 

[bruce]

In the sense that being pregnant is a new beginning, I could agree with what Jesed said. But in the sense that a child has been born: not yet across. In the same way, hope may have already crossed over (the vision I?d mentioned earlier) but not yet the reality or actualization.

 

[void]

Maybe it might help if Jesed give a real life example. I'm trying to think of one...the example here the other day was a good one, where a person said she had left an area to live and work in another, but was not happy yet...and did not know whether to continue. Jeseds advice was really good in that thread I thought. I will post link if I can find it.

 

[clarissa]

Bruce:
Hex. 1 lines 2 and 6 seem to express similar ideas as your 64 readings. There is a process (a creation) going on here that is "not yet" ready to fully reveal or express itself, and forcing the matter (1.6) brings danger (as in getting your tail wet).

If the time isn't right, action born of anxiety can only make trouble.

MS:
Thanks Bruce. I also received 12.3.6 -> 31 and 53.5 -> 52 to two other questions related to this issue...which once again seems to be saying the same thing. Do you agree? 12 -> 31 speaks of a standstill eventually coming to an end...and 53 -> 52 speaks of something like a standstill in that it talks of something taking a very long time...but eventually coming to pass. I'm thinking that 12 and 52 are in some way...similar.

 

[bruce]

Clarissa, yes, I think I see what you're referring to.

12.3 makes admission and begins to doubt previous assertions. Line 6 begins to do something about it, taking corrective measures. These are good steps to take before undertaking a crossing, it would seem.

31 interacts through common/shared attraction. That couldn't happen without reconciliation from 12.

(I'm unsure of the progression you've received here.)

53 - Steady and graceful motion, like the flight of a wild goose, brings about security and stability, in 52.

On a less analytical note, the emphasis in all this seems to be on relaxing and allowing, rather than on tension and forcing.

 

[luz]

Bruce, I like your new picture!!

 

[jesed]

Hi

I'n not saying the child is born yet in 64

New begining IS NOT something that is alredy achieved.. is something TO BE achieve...

When one is facing a new begining.. nothing is completed. One is like a fox crossing a frozen river: already left behind the western edge, but not yet arrives at the eastern edge

If you left behind the western edge, is because is no more a fuitfull land for you, so don't back... easter edge is the promisse for a better land. But you are still in the middle of the river... so walk precautionly, don't rush, hear every sound for danger...

Hope this could shows better what I'm traying to say: Clarissa is like this about situation y. So, she needs to get a better vision of that situation, of the diferent elements interacting in that situation, tu put every element in its own place.

In one prhase: "Clarissa, Yi Jing gives you so many 64 to shows you that you are in the middle of a huge transition related to situation y... this situation won't be anymore what it was... accept that and find out how to start something new about it."

Of course, if Clarissa finds this advice is wrong related to her real problem... I will acept that and review my idea.

Best wishes

 

[jesed]

Another methaphora, in case could be easier to understand.. is from Bible

The old age of Exodus ended when Josue cross the Jordan river... and this act was the begining for a new age: conquer of the Promissed Land....

So, that new age started with the crossing of Jordan River... but of course it took great wisdom, huge effort and much time to achieve the conquer of the Promissed Land.

(And no one try to go back to the desert

)

 

[bruce]

Thanks, Angel.

I wish others would share more about themselves in their profile, including their pictures. Makes it more like a community, less like autonomous masters.

Jesed, ok, I can dig it. I?ll give it more thought. Thanks.

 

[luz]

You are right.. it's very nice to be able to give a face to the name..

I'm even thinking of doing something about my profile and I hope many others will also share a bit of themselves..

 

[bruce]

Jesed,

je je, now when the people were baptised in the River Jordan, did they receive the Spirit before or after they came back out of the water?

 

[bruce]

So it was going into the water which was the hope? (new) Hope, (new) vision, (new) expectation, all these are 64. And if that's what you're saying, we're not disagreeing.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Void, IMHO I think it may be of benefit for you to review the binary sequence since it is the only sequence created 'naturally', and so representing core structure, and so ordering qualities from 'pure yin' to 'pure yang'. Focusing on the traditional sequence, a PARTICULAR, DERIVED, sequence is misleading in that you appear to be considering it the 'natural whole' when it is but a derived whole - small world stuff.

In the binary sequence we find that the QUALITIES of 64 share space with the QUALITIES of 40, as the QUALITIES of 63 share space with the QUALITIES of 37.

In these relationships the differences are in the top line only and as such 64 represents a conditional state, 40 an unconditional state. IOW they both reflect the core sense of the bit pattern 01010 with 64 manifesting the expression of the conditional side and 40 the expression of the unconditional side.

Their 27-ness is in the pair of 54 for 64 and 38 for 40. These relationships are all encoded into the IC, they are not some idiosyncratic interpretation of mine - they are like 1 + 1 = 2 ;-) (Note the skeletal form of 63 is in 53 - gradual development, maturing, all part of getting things in the 'correct' sequence etc (and so 63 is often referred to as the symbol of the 'correct' line values etc))

'Beginnings' or 'new' etc etc all relate to basic representations around THUNDER and 54 has that element in it but is an ANALOGY to describe the 'raw' nature, the skeletal form, of 64, note the core 64 meaning. The same for 40 in that it too has THUNDER as top trigram but that contributes to the DIFFERENCE of 40 from 64.

Jesed's original comment appeared as a presentation of the core meaning of 64 as if representing beginnings etc etc etc. This is, in the context of core meaning, 'incorrect' ('stretching' the meaning) and that is not my assessment, it comes out of the IC. It is easy to see the source of the 'incorrect' interpretation if you do not let the IC 'tell you' in that we all focus on particulars over generals and so personal over collective - and in doing so develop ' biases' in our assessments. But now we have access to the IC itself telling us.

IMHO Void you really do need to focus on the binary to understand the structure of the IC, the traditional will not help since it is more a sequence focused on the recursing the 01/64 pair rather than 01/02 pair.

If we move to the species IC level then 64 reflects a context of contractive bounding (containment issues) in which is operating a text of expansive bounding (ideology issues). IOW the whole hexagram shares with 63 the sense of issues with boundaries; 64 with approach to the boundary (as in getting it 'incorrect' or avoiding/delaying reaching the boundary marker) and 63 with expanding the boundary (push outwards from it). The boundary marker is the point of 'completion'. In fire we push it outwards, convert difference to sameness; in water we hold it, pull it inwards as a way of keeping things out/in.

If we move to the emotional aspects of the IC then 64 represents issues of rejection/rejecting within which operate issues of acceptance, and 63 the reverse.

The 64/40 pair are thus rooted in a context of containment/control, of issues of rejection/rejecting. The 63/38 pair is more rooted in issues of acceptance etc.

With understanding the self-referencing of the IC so the IC describes itself. You don?t seem to 'get' that and given the bias to the traditional texts that is understandable but we are at a point in working with the IC where there is change present and we are moving way beyond the limitations of the traditional perspective - and all due to our uncovering properties and methods of the brain in its derivation and communication of meaning.

Chris.

 

[clarissa]

Hi Jesed,

"In one prhase: "Clarissa, Yi Jing gives you so many 64 to shows you that you are in the middle of a huge transition related to situation y... this situation won't be anymore what it was... accept that and find out how to start something new about it."

Of course, if Clarissa finds this advice is wrong related to her real problem... I will acept that and review my idea."

I certainly am in the middle of a stream "crossing over"...and was when I asked those questions that gave me 64 repeatedly. I was also a little impatient and upset that things were not progressing as I thought they might. In that case...I guess the 64 was the Yi's way of telling me that I'm going in the right direction...am in the middle of a big transistion...but the time for y...is not quite yet.

 

[bruce]

Chris,

(in simple terms, please, if possible) What relationship, if any, do you see between 64 and 4? And also, any insights on relationship between 64 and 3?

Thanks

 

[lightofdarkness]

Bruce, my first approach would be through XORing:

The 4-ness of 64 is described by analogy to hexagram 16:

IOW 4-ness of 64 how is 'masking', socialisation of youth etc expressed through a context of mis-sequencing/remaining open. The analogy is to 16 where the focus is on the use of foresight, enthusiastic planning etc (and so not completing things as good as the plan! - a common problem for many! ;-))

The 64-ness of 4 also described by analogy to 16 where the expression of mis-sequencing, remaining open, not completing etc is covered in the same focus on an over-emphasis on planning and enthusiasm that can distort perceptions of reality - we can make an error, lose one's way and get things 'incorrect' but we can also over-emphasise the planning and so avoid 'closure' in the form of avoiding putting it all into practice.

The 3-ness of 64 is described by analogy to hexagram 10 and visa versa.

3-ness covers sprouting, difficult beginnings etc expressed through a context of incompleteness/remaining-open. This is described by analogy to 10 with its emphasis on rigidly following a path whilst under close scrutiny (as a seed germinates into the environment that then influences that development so it needs to remain open to 'novelities' that can come along)

The reverse is the incompleteness/remaining-open influence of 64 expressed through 03 - and so the same hexagram, 10, with its focus on conduct/treading etc.

In principle it is possible to make the 64/3 and 64/4 dichotomy and apply recursion to give some 'logic of relationships' in the form of a sequence of 32 pairs (a is to 64 as b is to 3 etc) - we already do this for 01/02 pair in the form of the natural binary sequence.

These are 'pure' expressions and as such IC self-referencing (as pure mathematics does). THEN comes the grounding of the universal to a particular context (as applied mathematics does).

The IC as such, like Mathematics, is a language and so can be used to represent anything but from an immediate qualitive perspective rather than starting with letters/words etc.

 

[bruce]

I can see what you're saying. Hoping I don't regret asking this

but how do you arrive 16 in your first example, and 10 in your second?

 

[luz]

[raising eager virtual hand..]
He XOR's them!!!

In xor operation, 0&0=0, 1&0=1, 1&1=0

to get the 4-ness of 64 he xors 4 & 64, like this:

010001 (hex 4)
010101 (hex 64)
______
000100 (hex 16)

to get the 3-ness of 64 he xors 3 & 64, like this:

100010 (hex 3)
010101 (hex 64)
______
110111 (hex 10)

Question for Bruce: What I really want to know is, does it make sense? Do you think that the 4-ness of 64 could be 16 and the 3-ness of 64 could be 10?
I often wonder if this manipulation of the hexagrams make sense, if the results are understandable and ring a bell for those who have an in depth knowledge of the normal I Ching.

 

[lightofdarkness]

This methodology is covered in the ICPlus material and shows it has its roots in recursion of ANY dichotomy and as such is not something unique to the IC, it is unique to recursion.

ALL parts are reflected in EACH part but distorted as such. As covered in the original 27-ness aspect, 'flip' the top and bottom lines of any hexagram to give you that hexagram's 'skeletal' form - IOW the qualities covered in 27. This applies to ALL hexagrams (and so the above earlier listing of 64s 'spectrum' where all hexagrams contribute to the description of each hexagram but IN GENERAL.)

The 27-ness material is the original mapping so try it out and from there we generalise to all other hexagrams capable of doing the same thing.

 

[bruce]

LOL, Angel, you lost me at 1&1=0! Someone's been paying attention, though. Mind if I sit next to you during the test? And you're asking ME if this makes sense?

Sorry, Chris. I'm just not wired for this sort of mathematical reasoning. But I sincerely thank you for your effort. I do grasp many of the general concepts you talk about, though. But where numbers and such come to play, I'm lost in the forest.

 

[heylise]

4-ness of 64 might be the big eyes full of expectation when you have no idea what will happen. The expectation causes you to enter into it, even without knowing if there will be any result.
3-ness 10. Maybe the careful treading of the little fox, which makes a new beginning from chaos possible?

Lise

 

[luz]

Well it should really say "1 xor 1 = 0"
Yes, you may sit next to me during the binary operators test, LOL.
And please, stay there for the following test, "Reading the I Ching 101"

Well, my question as to whether it makes sense is regarding the application of these operators to real life. In this case, the validity of these assertions:

"The 4-ness of 64 is 16"
"The 3-ness of 64 is 10"

Does that make sense? Whatever you assume the 4-ness or the 3-ness of anything is supposed to mean.. that was my question..

 

[bruce]

Angel, like some others here (I think), I do strongly believe Chris has always been onto something significant. Instinctively it resonates as real. But I can't tell you why exactly. I do perceive that every hexagram can relate to any other hexagram and that the emphesis and influence changes accordingly, IE: the 4-ness qualities of 64 makes perfect sense to me, as LiSe reasons it, for example. How Chris arrives at that, no idea. Yes, yes, I know.. XOR. lol

And no problem with "reading 101". That much I can assist you with.

 

[luz]

Thanks LiSe, that makes sense. Thanks Bruce.

I too think the material is very interesting, if a bit over my head at this point. I still think it's best to understand the original I Ching a bit better before trying to start xor-ing things around!

 

[jesed]

Hi Clarissa

"I guess the 64 was the Yi's way of telling me that I'm going in the right direction...am in the middle of a big transistion...but the time for y...is not quite yet."

I'm totally agree wiht this. And the last phrase of my original comment for you (about leave past in the past) points a question:
could it be that before "time for y completely arrive" you need to close something else? something about x?

I'll speak clear, hope don't be rude:

a) seems that is about relationship... time for relationship with y is not quite yet because you has not close relationship (or the wish to have relationship) with x
b) if job... time for job y is not quite yet because you has not close job (or the wish to have job) x

In any case... seems tha "x" and "y" are two posibilities or situations that exclude each other... seems that "time for y is not quiet yet" because "x" is not leaved behind already.

Best wishes

 

[lightofdarkness]

Lightangel, you wrote:

"The 4-ness of 64 is 16"
"The 3-ness of 64 is 10"

I started-off with:

"The 4-ness of 64 is described by analogy to hexagram 16" - there are fundamental differences here in that the focus is on the use of the IC as a language that works off analogy/metaphor; IOW when we derive a hexagram for some particular situation we are deriving an analogy where it says "this situation is LIKE/ANALOGOUS-TO the qualities represented by hexagram X" - and so MANY contexts can elicit the same hexagram as meaning.

Due to the XOR-ing we can then extract from that GENERAL the details on where X develops, how it starts, ends, expresses things etc.; we get the hexagram's spectrum.

In modern times 'bots' are on the 'net identifying your preferences re books, cds, etc based on such tools as the MBTI - IOW they focus on a genetic factor that 'pushes' you, your autopilot - from taking samples they can generalise to a 'type' and so use that as feedback for sending you promotional material presented in a way you will find 'attractive'. - IOW they acquire you spectrum and once done can 'push your buttons' more efficently, more productively. KNOWING this allows us to identify our our buttons and refine them and so we can push them etc. The fun of feedback and self-referencing!

The ICPlus focus is on extracting the representation of the CONTEXT and with that extraction, and using XOR-ing, show all of the 'buttons' that that context can set-off when we are placed in that context - that placement being willingly or due to circumstances beyond our control (an aspect of 54)

Note the IMPLICIT nature in this - we do not ask a question about 'something/someone', we ask questions about the context IN GENERAL (as covered in the previous links to the questions pages) and from THAT then go for details about that context... this gets into the notion of moving into a context and having to 'integrate' with that context prior to any 'actions' (recall the story of the rainmaker who came to the village and bunkered-down in a supplied hut for days prior to eliciting rain - when asked 'why the delay?' he said he needed to get in touch with the 'tao' of the area first before he could do anything - IOW by identifying the 'buttons' of the context, how it can push him, so he knows what buttons he can push to get the context to respond in the way he wants.)

The "Language of the Vague" means we work off implicit identifications where the closest we can get to describing 4-ness of 64, at the scale of hexagrams, is analogy to GENERAL qualities of 16. IF we move up or down the recursive tree then we get sets of more general or more particular qualities usable in the description but we cannot be precise to the degree of saying "4-ness of 64 IS 16" (we are of course tempted to do so as we seek to reduce things to some shorthand but in doing so can covert the figurative into the literal) - in fact the complete IC requires us to go to dodecagram levels but expressed in the forms of hexagrams with changing lines. However there is no need for that level of details (a spectrum of 4096 qualities is not as easy to handle as one of 64!)

16 has its particular 16-ness that is unique to it (it is described by analogy to 02 - the home of, the container of, all potentials - when we apply 02 to 16 then out pops 16 - the 'ideal' form extracted from the pool of potentials) but then there is a range of qualities from the dampened to the exaggerated for each hexagram.

For example using hexagram 23 - the dampened, the underexaggerated qualities of 23 are covered in such terms as 'housekeeping'. OTOH the over-exaggerated qualities of 23 are covered in such terms as 'the high priest/priestess assertion of the one 'true' faith' (the 'across-the-board' focus being on PRUNING - and so the 'simple' prcoess of housekeeping or the 'heavy metal' process of 'strong' presentation of the preferred faith - from the light vs dark level of interpretation we are dealing with the last bastion of 'order' prior to collapse and so a need to maintain that bastion).

In the use of 27-ness, so the 27-ness of 01 is 28 but here we use 28s dampened meaning in the form of 'excess', too much yang - whereas the full spectrum of 28 covers 'too much yang' to going the extra distance for someone/something.

IOW the skeletal form, the 27-ness, is described by underplaying the meaning of the derived hexagram that is serving as the source of analogy.

From the level of the GENERAL and UNIVERSAL there is a wide range of states that describe something. As we ground that general into a particular context so the description becomes more precise BUT also more LOCAL. IOW for each hexagram there is a spectrum of expressions at the local where, working from the general, those expressions are reduced to 'vague' terms.

All of that said, there is still a LOT of work to be done in these areas as we get a better grasp of the dynamics associated with recursion and their expression in the IC.

Chris.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Bruce,

The XOR processing reflects the use by the brain of that logic operator to extract details from a complex form (an AND state with all linked together). To IMPLEMENT that operator in the brain requires TWO neurons, one feeding-back on the other, and so SELF-REFERENCING becomes an essential feature of details extraction. IOW the recursion of yin/yang is in our heads ;-)

To experience this XOR/AND dynamic see the examples of sensory paradox in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html

Each diagram is a 'complex line drawing' that our brain XORs to extract details - and in some circumstances elicits 'paradox'.

Also see the comments on foreground/background dynamics of the brain:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/wavedicho.html

From the IC perspective, each hexagram is a WHOLE where the use of XOR-ing allows for the extraction of what makes up that whole. (If you dont like the term XOR then we can just take a hexagram and apply recursion to it bottom up to get the same parts lists - see the page http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icmatrix.html )

Chris.

 

[bruce]

Hi Chris,

I understand your first paragraph.

The first page reference reads something like a jet plane mechanic manual. But you already knew that.

I can get the ideas it speaks of into general focus, but I have no interest in the schematics. Know what I mean? It just doesn't speak to me. But neither is the outcome foreign to me. No, I don't and can't break down all the working components by name, nor do I process the faculty for math to understand through its logic, but rarely does the simple truth which comes from your work escape me. And that I really appreciate.

Live long, your work prosper.