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getojack

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If you cross a river on the way there and cross a river on the way back, have you crossed the same river or a different one? If you cross a river at different points in time and space, is it a different river?
 

ewald

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If you identify the river by it's name, or from a map, it's the same river. If you will only accept what's real in the moment, it's a different river. Hell, you may not even identify it as a river, then! However, when you call it "river" or whatever, it's essentially the same thing.
 

sparhawk

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If you cross a river on the way there and cross a river on the way back, have you crossed the same river or a different one? If you cross a river at different points in time and space, is it a different river?
Are you pulling a "Confucius"?? :D

L

PS: Even the bed of a river changes with time...
 

peace66

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Crossing The Great Water...

Where's Our Dearest Hilary?
Hilary is great with "Crossing The Great Water":bows:

I don't have a clue:confused:
Peace
 

Trojina

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Er couldn't you say the same about anything, like is the road you cross on your way to work the same road you cross on your way back ? Its convenient to think so i find life confusing enough as it is :rofl: or is the bed you leave in the morning the same bed you return to that night - have i missed your point ? Are these jeans i put on this morning the same jeans I have on now ? Perhaps i have missed your point ?
 
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getojack

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Er couldn't you say the same about anything, like is the road you cross on your way to work the same road you cross on your way back ? Its convenient to think so i find life confusing enough as it is :rofl: or is the bed you leave in the morning the same bed you return to that night - have i missed your point ? Are these jeans i put on this morning the same jeans I have on now ? Perhaps i have missed your point ?
Hmm, yes, I think you have missed my point. Probably my fault for being rather vague about it. Indeed, you could say the same about anything... the road, the bed, the jeans, whatever. But I have an idea brewing in the back of my mind that there are two great crossings in the Yijing... one from the Upper Canon to the Lower Canon, and the other from the Lower Canon to the Upper Canon. Two crossings, but one river.
 

Tohpol

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Why did the chicken cross the road? Was it really a chicken or was it really a road? Or had the chicken already crossed the road without knowing it? Had the chicken in fact, not crossed a road but a river? And was his ease of crossing merely because he was thinking chicken thoughts or was it because he was a duck?

I'm kept awake at night by the sound of a webbed foot clapping.

Topal
 
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sparhawk

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Are these jeans i put on this morning the same jeans I have on now ?
Well, depends... Before or after feeling bloated? :rofl:

L
 

frank_r

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I once treated a patient, a very old lady where I came once a week for several years.
She had to go to the hospital for three weeks and when she came back she said, : I know everything is the same, my room, this building and everything in it. But I also see that it is different than three weeks ago before I left it.

So what isn't changing? Everything has a spirit. I once read that the Dalai lama thought that if somebody is working a lot behind a computer he/she can reincarnate his/her next life as a computer.:rofl:
 

getojack

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Frank, if everything has a spirit, then does that spirit change or stay the same? And if it changes, then it's not the same, is it? Just like the river. If the river changes and you change your position in relation to it, then I think it's a different river the next time. And you're a different person crossing it. I don't think it matters if it has the same name as before... it's still different.
 

frank_r

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Frank, if everything has a spirit, then does that spirit change or stay the same? And if it changes, then it's not the same, is it? Just like the river. If the river changes and you change your position in relation to it, then I think it's a different river the next time. And you're a different person crossing it. I don't think it matters if it has the same name as before... it's still different.
Why isn't it both, there is always some yin in yang and vic versa.
 

getojack

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OK, let's say that everything is both the same and different... well then is it mostly the same or mostly different? Perhaps equally the same and different?
 
B

bruce_g

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Perhaps the question should be, why didn't the chicken cross the road? Cuz he's chicken. d'uh!

Trojan, the difference between a road and a river is that the pavement remains the same for the road, whereas the river water you step in this morning is long gone on your way home.
 

Trojina

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Trojan, the difference between a road and a river is that the pavement remains the same for the road, whereas the river water you step in this morning is long gone on your way home.
No see i figured that everythings made of atoms and molecules that dance around right - - nothing is really solid, thats just an illusion, so even the road isn't solid but millions of shifting particles that look like a road to us - at least we have a group consensus its a road - to a chicken it could be something else altogether.

Thats my theory but quantum physics isn't my strong point. :cool:
 

frank_r

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OK, let's say that everything is both the same and different... well then is it mostly the same or mostly different? Perhaps equally the same and different?
Sounds interesting; equally the same and different, sometimes a little bit more of this sometimes a little bit of the other.

A Zen koan:

Tanzan and Ekido were once traveling together down a muddy road. A heavy rain was still falling.

Coming around a bend, they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash, unable to cross the intersection.

"Come on, girl" said Tanzan at once. Lifting her in his arms, he carried her over the mud.

Ekido did not speak again until that night when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females," he told Tanzan, "especially not young and lovely ones. It is dangerous. Why did you do that?"

"I left the girl there," said Tanzan. "Are you still carrying her?"
 

hilary

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I have an idea brewing in the back of my mind that there are two great crossings in the Yijing... one from the Upper Canon to the Lower Canon, and the other from the Lower Canon to the Upper Canon. Two crossings, but one river.
This sounds intriguing. How is the brew progressing?
When or how might we experience a 'crossing' between canons?

Meanwhile Trojan, at post #6, gets the prize for Best Reason For Editing.
 

Trojina

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:rofl: heh heh eat your heart out Luis i won 'reason for editing' prize- ( wonder what the prize is)
 
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hilary

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Choose your cabin now! (The cruise will be announced later.)
 

getojack

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This sounds intriguing. How is the brew progressing?
When or how might we experience a 'crossing' between canons?
I think the brew is almost completed... :) Here you go...

If you look at the 64 hexagrams, you've got eight that are "inverse-symmetrical" (the same right-side up and upside-down). In the traditional (King Wen) sequence, these hexagrams seem not to be placed randomly in the sequence, but in groups... Qian and Kun (1 and 2) at the beginning of the Upper Canon; Yi, Da Guo, Xi Kan and Li (27,28,29 and 30) at the end of the Upper Canon, and Zhong Fu and Xiao Guo (61 and 62) at or near the end of the Lower Canon.

Taking the names of the hexagrams into account, you've got (according to LiSe's wonderful translation) 28: Da Guo - Across the Great Pass, and 62: Xiao Guo - Across the Small Pass. These are the "bookends", so to speak... 29 and 30 can be seen as the Great Pass and 63 and 64 can be seen as the Small Pass. Two crossings and two passes... you can never go back exactly the same way you came because everything has changed, right?

Now, if you look at the scans of the arrangement of the King Wen Sequence on Biroco's page at http://www.biroco.com/yijing/scans/ztddivision762.jpg
in which the 64 hexagrams are in two equally divided groups of 18 hexagrams in the Upper Canon (of which 12 are invertable and 6 are doubled) and 18 hexagrams in the Lower Canon (of which 16 are invertable and 2 are doubled), you can see why there appear to be 30 hexagrams in the Upper Canon and 34 in the Lower Canon.

So the Yijing represents this journey in 2-dimensional space... yin and yang, whole and broken, but how would you represent it in 3-dimensional space? I came to the solution that you could create a mobius strip to represent this, in which one side has the 18 hexagrams of the Upper Canon and the other side has the 18 hexagrams of the Lower Canon. When the strip is connected with a half turn, and the beginning meets the end, you've got an infinite loop of hexagrams... from Upper to Lower Canon and from Lower to Upper Canon. There are two passes, but they cross over each other in 3-dimensional (or is it four or more dimensions? I don't know) space. In effect, they are equally the same and different. :)

Now to turn to your second question, "When or how might we experience a 'crossing' between canons?"... I believe we might experience a crossing between canons at any time, but the times when it is easiest to cross the great stream, river, pass, etc. is in times of extremely intense emotions, especially at the moments of birth and death.

p.s. Actually, now that I think of it, a mobius strip is pretty one-sided and one-dimensional, isn't it?
 
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sparhawk

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:rofl: heh heh eat your heart out Luis i won 'reason for editing' prize- ( wonder what the prize is)
Darn!! I've been neglecting my funny side lately... :D

L

PS: I know, I know... All my sides look kind of funny. I've been neglecting myself?
 

laureet

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If you cross a river on the way there and cross a river on the way back, have you crossed the same river or a different one? If you cross a river at different points in time and space, is it a different river?
It is not the river which is important, it is YOU who cross the river, therefore the river will only be what it is for you , the one who crosses it ...

Think if you are lost and see the same river but think is a new one, for you, your intention, your fears, your thoughts , is a new river to cross, so it is a new river even if itself is not..

Then think you see another river, so similar that you think is the same, you will approach it at the light of what you believe, it is the same river to you....

The river for itself has no importance because will flow independently of what it is, but for you who crosses it, which river it is may make a difference...

So, in this case, is not the river what matters, is You crossing what makes the reality in any way you imagine it ...:bows:
 

charly

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... The river for itself has no importance because will flow independently of what it is, but for you who crosses it, which river it is may make a difference...
Laureet:

Very true, crossing the river is the conjunction of two paths: the path of the river and your own path, the big path of the river and your own little path.

Rivers are dragons and we are worms, and both change. Don't forget your path, but look at both because after crossing the river you will become changed.

Charly
 

frank_r

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I think the brew is almost completed... :) Here you go...

If you look at the 64 hexagrams, you've got eight that are "inverse-symmetrical" (the same right-side up and upside-down). In the traditional (King Wen) sequence, these hexagrams seem not to be placed randomly in the sequence, but in groups... Qian and Kun (1 and 2) at the beginning of the Upper Canon; Yi, Da Guo, Xi Kan and Li (27,28,29 and 30) at the end of the Upper Canon, and Zhong Fu and Xiao Guo (61 and 62) at or near the end of the Lower Canon.

Taking the names of the hexagrams into account, you've got (according to LiSe's wonderful translation) 28: Da Guo - Across the Great Pass, and 62: Xiao Guo - Across the Small Pass. These are the "bookends", so to speak... 29 and 30 can be seen as the Great Pass and 63 and 64 can be seen as the Small Pass. Two crossings and two passes... you can never go back exactly the same way you came because everything has changed, right?

Now, if you look at the scans of the arrangement of the King Wen Sequence on Biroco's page at http://www.biroco.com/yijing/scans/ztddivision762.jpg
in which the 64 hexagrams are in two equally divided groups of 18 hexagrams in the Upper Canon (of which 12 are invertable and 6 are doubled) and 18 hexagrams in the Lower Canon (of which 16 are invertable and 2 are doubled), you can see why there appear to be 30 hexagrams in the Upper Canon and 34 in the Lower Canon.

So the Yijing represents this journey in 2-dimensional space... yin and yang, whole and broken, but how would you represent it in 3-dimensional space? I came to the solution that you could create a mobius strip to represent this, in which one side has the 18 hexagrams of the Upper Canon and the other side has the 18 hexagrams of the Lower Canon. When the strip is connected with a half turn, and the beginning meets the end, you've got an infinite loop of hexagrams... from Upper to Lower Canon and from Lower to Upper Canon. There are two passes, but they cross over each other in 3-dimensional (or is it four or more dimensions? I don't know) space. In effect, they are equally the same and different. :)

Now to turn to your second question, "When or how might we experience a 'crossing' between canons?"... I believe we might experience a crossing between canons at any time, but the times when it is easiest to cross the great stream, river, pass, etc. is in times of extremely intense emotions, especially at the moments of birth and death.

p.s. Actually, now that I think of it, a mobius strip is pretty one-sided and one-dimensional, isn't it?
Hallo Getojack,

Interesting, I"m studing these crossings also for some time, in the book Yijing Wondering and Wandering of Janne Schorre and Carrin; Dunne http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-7553954-9705765?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=yijing+wondering&Go.x=12&Go.y=9

They also write a lot about these River Crossings, they make a connection between the lines, 1-6, 2-5 and 3-4 because this are the hexagrams 27,28,29,30,61 and 62. They call this the relation with the Dragon Gates(hexagram 1-2 63 and 64). Very interesting material. At least 1/3 of the book is about these crossings.

I'm studying this because I'm looking for the connection between Water and Fire in the King Wen and Fu Shiu sequence, that is the only axis that stays the same only changes position in pre heaven and later heaven.
These crossings are important for making big changes.
Water and Fire is the biggest crossing we people can make. It's also the deepest level for us human beings(Heart and Kidney).
Water and fire are the trigrams with the biggest paradox, the middle man line has to conclude that the perception on the outside(heaven and earth lines) can be different than it looks. The only way to do this to go deep inside and to stop the world.

Frank
 

hilary

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This is a good, rich brew :) Yijing Wondering and Wandering certainly deepens the flavour - it's a lovely book, one that actually uses structure to get a more powerful sense of the individual character of hexagrams. (Whereas I think there's always a danger, delving into structural things, of becoming 'dry'.)

Oh - Frank - have another look. I think you'll find that they use the terms 'river crossing' and 'dragon gate' somewhat differently from how you describe it. There are hexagrams that are the same when inverted, so their pair is their complement: 1-2, 27-28, 29-30, 61-62. All these they call 'dragon gates'. There are also 8 hexagrams that create their pair by inversion in the normal way, but the inverted hexagram is then also the complementary one: 11-12, 17-18, 53-54, 63-64. These they call 'river crossings'.

Very expensive question: how might we use any of these insights in readings?
 

frank_r

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Oh - Frank - have another look. I think you'll find that they use the terms 'river crossing' and 'dragon gate' somewhat differently from how you describe it. There are hexagrams that are the same when inverted, so their pair is their complement: 1-2, 27-28, 29-30, 61-62. All these they call 'dragon gates'. There are also 8 hexagrams that create their pair by inversion in the normal way, but the inverted hexagram is then also the complementary one: 11-12, 17-18, 53-54, 63-64. These they call 'river crossings'.

Very expensive question: how might we use any of these insights in readings?
Thanks Hilary, Yes I looked it up today and you are right. I was to much preoccupied with my own idea of water and fire. I have to study this some more.
And also your question about how to use this in readings in a practical way is challenging.
At the moment there are severall very interesting threads, and in a few days I go on holidays. So I have to choose what to do these last days.
But how do you think that you can use these insights in readings?
 

hilary

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Frank, that's a very good question. I'm not sure. I carry the awareness in mind of where I am in the sequence, what kind of relationships the hexagrams I'm working with are in. So if someone receives hexagram 28, for instance, I might talk to them about how complete the change is when you leave behind what once sustained and supported you. Or with 61, how there is a need and a drive to think about all the details of how this inner truth will be expressed, but the time for that is not yet. Perhaps. Usually people can intuitively grasp the idea of a kind of change that is like seeing the same landscape from a new perspective - the inverse pairs - as against this total change.

As for the river crossing pairs... well, I always pay special attention myself, when I have a hexagram from one of these, but it's not easy to put into words...
 

lienshan

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I'm studying this because I'm looking for the connection between Water and Fire in the King Wen and Fu Shiu sequence, that is the only axis that stays the same only changes position in pre heaven and later heaven.
Hi Frank

The Fu Shiu order of the trigrams:

III II: :I: I:: ::: ::I I:I :II

The Fu Shiu order of the trigrams reverted upside down:

III II: I:I I:: ::: ::I :I: :II

The King Wen order of the trigrams:

III :I: I:: ::I II: I:I ::: :II

The King Wen order of the trigrams reverted upside down:

III I:: ::: I:I :II I:: ::I :I:

The only two changing in the Fu Shiu order when reverted upside down are Water and Fire

The only one not changing in the King Wen order when reverted upside down is Heaven
 
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frank_r

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Hi Frank

The Fu Shiu order of the trigrams:

III II: :I: I:: ::: ::I I:I :II

The Fu Shiu order of the trigrams reverted upside down:

III II: I:I I:: ::: ::I :I: :II

The King Wen order of the trigrams:

III :I: I:: ::I II: I:I ::: :II

The King Wen order of the trigrams reverted upside down:

III I:: ::: I:I :II I:: ::I :I:

The only two changing in the Fu Shiu order when reverted upside down are Water and Fire

The only one not changing in the King Wen order when reverted upside down is Heaven

Ha Lienshan,

I know the turning of the trigram to look if the son and daughter have the same sex in pre and later Heaven(only the oldest son and daughter have this). But I didn't know this one.

But what is your conclusion of these turning and reading backwards of the 2 cycles?
Do you use these conclusions with a reading? Or for other reasons?
Can you explain this a little bit further for me?

Thanks. Frank.
 

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