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Are you pulling a "Confucius"??If you cross a river on the way there and cross a river on the way back, have you crossed the same river or a different one? If you cross a river at different points in time and space, is it a different river?
Hmm, yes, I think you have missed my point. Probably my fault for being rather vague about it. Indeed, you could say the same about anything... the road, the bed, the jeans, whatever. But I have an idea brewing in the back of my mind that there are two great crossings in the Yijing... one from the Upper Canon to the Lower Canon, and the other from the Lower Canon to the Upper Canon. Two crossings, but one river.Er couldn't you say the same about anything, like is the road you cross on your way to work the same road you cross on your way back ? Its convenient to think so i find life confusing enough as it is or is the bed you leave in the morning the same bed you return to that night - have i missed your point ? Are these jeans i put on this morning the same jeans I have on now ? Perhaps i have missed your point ?
Why isn't it both, there is always some yin in yang and vic versa.Frank, if everything has a spirit, then does that spirit change or stay the same? And if it changes, then it's not the same, is it? Just like the river. If the river changes and you change your position in relation to it, then I think it's a different river the next time. And you're a different person crossing it. I don't think it matters if it has the same name as before... it's still different.
No see i figured that everythings made of atoms and molecules that dance around right - - nothing is really solid, thats just an illusion, so even the road isn't solid but millions of shifting particles that look like a road to us - at least we have a group consensus its a road - to a chicken it could be something else altogether.Trojan, the difference between a road and a river is that the pavement remains the same for the road, whereas the river water you step in this morning is long gone on your way home.
Sounds interesting; equally the same and different, sometimes a little bit more of this sometimes a little bit of the other.OK, let's say that everything is both the same and different... well then is it mostly the same or mostly different? Perhaps equally the same and different?
This sounds intriguing. How is the brew progressing?I have an idea brewing in the back of my mind that there are two great crossings in the Yijing... one from the Upper Canon to the Lower Canon, and the other from the Lower Canon to the Upper Canon. Two crossings, but one river.
I think the brew is almost completed... Here you go...This sounds intriguing. How is the brew progressing?
When or how might we experience a 'crossing' between canons?
It is not the river which is important, it is YOU who cross the river, therefore the river will only be what it is for you , the one who crosses it ...If you cross a river on the way there and cross a river on the way back, have you crossed the same river or a different one? If you cross a river at different points in time and space, is it a different river?
Laureet:... The river for itself has no importance because will flow independently of what it is, but for you who crosses it, which river it is may make a difference...
Hallo Getojack,I think the brew is almost completed... Here you go...
If you look at the 64 hexagrams, you've got eight that are "inverse-symmetrical" (the same right-side up and upside-down). In the traditional (King Wen) sequence, these hexagrams seem not to be placed randomly in the sequence, but in groups... Qian and Kun (1 and 2) at the beginning of the Upper Canon; Yi, Da Guo, Xi Kan and Li (27,28,29 and 30) at the end of the Upper Canon, and Zhong Fu and Xiao Guo (61 and 62) at or near the end of the Lower Canon.
Taking the names of the hexagrams into account, you've got (according to LiSe's wonderful translation) 28: Da Guo - Across the Great Pass, and 62: Xiao Guo - Across the Small Pass. These are the "bookends", so to speak... 29 and 30 can be seen as the Great Pass and 63 and 64 can be seen as the Small Pass. Two crossings and two passes... you can never go back exactly the same way you came because everything has changed, right?
Now, if you look at the scans of the arrangement of the King Wen Sequence on Biroco's page at http://www.biroco.com/yijing/scans/ztddivision762.jpg
in which the 64 hexagrams are in two equally divided groups of 18 hexagrams in the Upper Canon (of which 12 are invertable and 6 are doubled) and 18 hexagrams in the Lower Canon (of which 16 are invertable and 2 are doubled), you can see why there appear to be 30 hexagrams in the Upper Canon and 34 in the Lower Canon.
So the Yijing represents this journey in 2-dimensional space... yin and yang, whole and broken, but how would you represent it in 3-dimensional space? I came to the solution that you could create a mobius strip to represent this, in which one side has the 18 hexagrams of the Upper Canon and the other side has the 18 hexagrams of the Lower Canon. When the strip is connected with a half turn, and the beginning meets the end, you've got an infinite loop of hexagrams... from Upper to Lower Canon and from Lower to Upper Canon. There are two passes, but they cross over each other in 3-dimensional (or is it four or more dimensions? I don't know) space. In effect, they are equally the same and different.
Now to turn to your second question, "When or how might we experience a 'crossing' between canons?"... I believe we might experience a crossing between canons at any time, but the times when it is easiest to cross the great stream, river, pass, etc. is in times of extremely intense emotions, especially at the moments of birth and death.
p.s. Actually, now that I think of it, a mobius strip is pretty one-sided and one-dimensional, isn't it?
Thanks Hilary, Yes I looked it up today and you are right. I was to much preoccupied with my own idea of water and fire. I have to study this some more.Oh - Frank - have another look. I think you'll find that they use the terms 'river crossing' and 'dragon gate' somewhat differently from how you describe it. There are hexagrams that are the same when inverted, so their pair is their complement: 1-2, 27-28, 29-30, 61-62. All these they call 'dragon gates'. There are also 8 hexagrams that create their pair by inversion in the normal way, but the inverted hexagram is then also the complementary one: 11-12, 17-18, 53-54, 63-64. These they call 'river crossings'.
Very expensive question: how might we use any of these insights in readings?
Hi FrankI'm studying this because I'm looking for the connection between Water and Fire in the King Wen and Fu Shiu sequence, that is the only axis that stays the same only changes position in pre heaven and later heaven.
The Fu Shiu order of the trigrams:
III II: :I: I:: ::I I:I :II
The Fu Shiu order of the trigrams reverted upside down:
III II: I:I I:: ::I :I: :II
The King Wen order of the trigrams:
III :I: I:: ::I II: I:I :II
The King Wen order of the trigrams reverted upside down:
III I:: I:I :II I:: ::I :I:
The only two changing in the Fu Shiu order when reverted upside down are Water and Fire
The only one not changing in the King Wen order when reverted upside down is Heaven
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