Sacrifice

[Sparhawk]

Sacrifice as 'making sacred'? Wow.

Surprised at your surprise... Really.

Now, let's take a look at "sacrilege" (thanks for the link to that etymological site!!!):

sacrilege
c.1303, "crime of stealing what is consecrated to God," from O.Fr. sacrilege (12c.), from L. sacrilegium "temple robbery," from sacrilegus "stealer of sacred things," from phrase sacrum legere "to steal sacred things," from sacrum "sacred object (from neuter sing. of sacer "sacred") + legere "take, pick up" (see lecture). Second element is related to lecture, but is not from religion. Transf. sense of "profanation of anything held sacred" is attested from 1390. Sacrilegious is from 1582.
​

Nice and slightly antonymic perspective on "sacrifice"...

 

[Tohpol]

Surprised at your surprise... Really.

Now, let's take a look at "sacrilege" (thanks for the link to that etymological site!!!):

sacrilege
c.1303, "crime of stealing what is consecrated to God," from O.Fr. sacrilege (12c.), from L. sacrilegium "temple robbery," from sacrilegus "stealer of sacred things," from phrase sacrum legere "to steal sacred things," from sacrum "sacred object (from neuter sing. of sacer "sacred") + legere "take, pick up" (see lecture). Second element is related to lecture, but is not from religion. Transf. sense of "profanation of anything held sacred" is attested from 1390. Sacrilegious is from 1582.
​

Nice and slightly antonymic perspective on "sacrifice"...

Word games...I'll play while I sup my sacred coffee...

Got thinking about sacrifice = sacred = sacrum = ("said to be so called because the bone was the part of animals that was offered in sacrifices) = sacral (as in the chakra / centre) seems to be linked to this idea of both sacrifice the root inner temple or sacrificial altar in which the sexual /energy is directed into creativity or just frittering it away.

According to one author (Ambika Wauters’ book, Chakras and Their Archetypes) there are two archetypes symbolically located in this second centre called the Martyr and the Empress/Emperor. The “...polarity of suffering and sacrifice on the one hand, and pleasure, happiness and contentment on the other.”

She goes on to say that the Martyr can be transformed into the Empress/Emperor:

The Martyr:

* Takes greater responsibility than the Victim, but not enough to be empowered
* Sacrifices and suffers for the sake of others
* Thinks sacrifice is good for the self
* Often experiences anger, resentment and guilt
* Feels it deserves its self-imposed suffering
* Unable to shift negative attitudes and change life patterns
* Gives up claim to happiness to maintain peace, stability and balance for others

Simplistic maybe but interesting...

Then I thought about sacred-sacral -sacrilege = sacred = lineage?

a sacred heritage or "crime of stealing what is consecrated to God," or "The violation or injurious treatment of a sacred object." is really describing what we do to ourselves everyday until we are able to awaken to correct use of sexual energy i.e. creativity via transmuted emotions...Until then we are "stealing", exploiting something sacred that is "of God" Which demands a "sacrifice" at some point...

So, sacrilege = sacred = lineage = ("My liege") = Royal blood - bloodline etc. = Holy Grail within transmutation etc.

liege
–noun
1. a feudal lord entitled to allegiance and service.
2. a feudal vassal or subject.
–adjective
3. owing primary allegiance and service to a feudal lord.
4. pertaining to the relation between a feudal vassal and lord.
5. loyal; faithful: the liege adherents of a cause.

The Master and the vassal = the personality and the soul = higher and lower self...The Sacred relationship.

Then there's sacri-lege - LEGE - law - so breaching the sacred law. Or "Liege" To allege; to assert one's responsibility to become the vassel and serve or to to violate the sacred "Royal King" within.

It's interesting that the idea of sacrilege or it's evolution follows the normal course of the increasing extremism of organized religion which distorted the original meanings and pushed them into a concrete physical interpretation and an inquisitorial one where the sacrilege became the respsonsibility of the Church to exact "just" punishment. Then by the time we came to those blood-thirsty Levitical priests of Deuteronomy they'd managed to turn it into a system of virtual taxation based on how naughty you'd been with your profanity and general sacrilegious behaviour. What a ruse! Of course, they'd pocket those false idols and all that gold and silver and go and invite some friends around for one of their famed Babylonian orgies.

Topal

 

[emc2cme]

The more you guys share, the more interesting and complex this idea of sacrifice becomes. If the etymology of sacrifice is "to make sacred"--just how do we do that? I think we all know when we're in a sacred place, or a sacred moment, or when we're talking to a holy or sacred person. But just how do the place, the moment and/or the person GET that way? Is it something that we've been conditioned to believe or react to, like seeing stained-glass windows or hearing Gregorian chants or smelling incense? Or is something truly changed when it's "consecrated"?

Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.

Nancy

 

[Tohpol]

Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.

Hi Nancy,

Geeze I don't know. I don't think anyone really knows for sure. We have all kinds of theories, distorted truths religions and and various beliefs and "-isms" but...

I suppose to become sacred or "make sacred" we have to become a "vessel" that can handle and then disburse that energy - that correct "frequency." Like we are the pot, the potter and the potter's wheel all at the same time. I do think there can be a fundamental, internal change almost like a chemical reaction that is mirroring something taking place at a higher level.

it's a HUGE question you've posed with an infinite variety of answers. (A neverending thread you might say). However, I think there is really only One Way but many paths.

For me, the Alchemists; Cathars; Sufi mystics; Celtic Christians;some aspects of the gnostic tradition and some of the 4th Way schools seem to have a bigger slice of the truth pie than other traditions. (and the I Ching of course!) They have a lot to say about the sacred, what it is and how to embody it in our lives. Easier said than done of course...

I'll try and dig some quotations out at some point.

Topal

 

[meng]

By all means. And this is where the Yi gets really exciting, because of two things. First, it works as an oracle nowadays, thousands of years after it was devised, because it operates via a rich collection of archetypes expressed SYMBOLICALLY. That richness of symbology is what makes is so useful to us, and so usable by us. And secondly (and this really astounds me) I'm absolutely convinced, as you seem to be, that the Yi is a sort of secret manual of spiritual transformation - you call it 'alchemical'. I call it secret, not because the knowledge is hidden somewhere, but because it just isn't available to you until you know yourself well enough to start to recognize what the Yi's talking about in terms of working on your own transformation.

Good stuff.

 

[meng]

The more you guys share, the more interesting and complex this idea of sacrifice becomes. If the etymology of sacrifice is "to make sacred"--just how do we do that? I think we all know when we're in a sacred place, or a sacred moment, or when we're talking to a holy or sacred person. But just how do the place, the moment and/or the person GET that way? Is it something that we've been conditioned to believe or react to, like seeing stained-glass windows or hearing Gregorian chants or smelling incense? Or is something truly changed when it's "consecrated"?

Just wondering what your thoughts are on this.

Nancy

Do we make an object sacred or does the object make us scared?

In my life, change comes through lots of conscious effort, which seems to go nowhere. Then, one morning things are unexpectedly different.

But there's one other act which makes the connection between work and miracle. At some point I ask for help. And this happens before the miracle shows itself. Sometimes the prayer must enable the belief in order to progress in the work. Then when the work and change is complete, I call it divine. My effort was half of the miracle, and so it is as divine as is the unseen half. To me that is the meaning of sacred.

 

[lindsay]

As a practical matter, one way we make occasions, places, and things sacred is through ritual and ceremony. Ritual is a way to summon the holy and make us mindful of our place in the world of spirit. Near my home, for example, a priest blesses the fishing fleet every year at the beginning of the fishing season. Somehow it seems like a good way to deal with a host of important issues - ranging from concerns about personal safety (the sea is a dangerous place) to the hope for good fortune (a good catch) to a realization that some of us live by the bounty of the sea (the death of many good fish). A good ritual seems to put all these concerns straight, and sanctify the business of fishing.

There are hints of this in the Yi. For example, it's OK to use a plain grass offering mat (28.1) or sacrifice a meager offering (45.2, 46.2 - so-called "spring offerings"). Even two simple baskets of rice (41.0) or a roll of unbleached silk (22.5) can be used. The shock of thunder can cause us to drop the ceremonial spoon and libation cup at a sacrifice (51.0). We ought to pass a jug of wine and two earthenware bowls of rice quickly through a window of some sort (29.4), probably a sacrificial offering. Lords can offer sacrifices that poor people cannot afford (14.3). But wealth isn't everything - the eastern neighbor's sacrificial ox is not as good as the western neighbor's modest offering (63.5). The king makes a sacrifice to the god Di (42.2) or Mount Qi (46.4). Etc.

Here we have indications of ritual ceremonies large and small, all designed to make our concerns and wishes sacred, and to pass them on into the other, unseen realm. That's not so hard to understand, is it? Don't we do the same thing now and then?

Lindsay

 

[fkegan]

Sacrifice in Yi refers to ancient Chinese religious rites

When the Yi commentary says sacrifice they are referring to the set of various sacrifices which were standard in traditional ancient China-- such as the reference to one neighbor slaughtering an ox to less effect than another's small sacrifice in hex 63 line 5. These were major social or family events often opportunities to show off your wealth and piety to improve status and family glory.

The conflict between the outer public show and the inner sacred attitude would be a major theme in the Confucian system of morality especially as translated by a 19th century German Protestant like Wilhelm.

Hexagram 41 called Decrease in Wilhelm refers to making a rice sacrifice with less than the full compliment of rice bowls. The ideogram for the name in Chinese contains a drawing of the tortoise shell oracle that preceded the development of the King Wen Sequence (when the Chinese still used computer binary math for their Hexagrams).

Why Wilhelm called it Decrease rather than Sacrifice seems rooted in his religious background--I believe he was the son of a Christian missionary without great tolerance for traditional Chinese religion as an expression of relationship with God.

In ancient religion there was an understanding that one owed payment for Divine assistance, therefore prayer alone was considered like not tipping your waitperson.

In that context, sacrifice refers to the simple contract of making your prayer ascend to Heaven and the Divine along with the smoke of your burnt offering with the value of the sacrificial rice or ox or whatever being like original tips--to insure prompt service. The commentary is always included that it is just a gratuity not a bribe or purchase to remind folks of the importance of true sentiment and not just a flashy bankroll.

The ancient Chinese were basically straightforward, but translation is always a problem across millennia and culture. The Greeks called translators "traitors" since they betrayed the original meaning to insert their own perspective.

The problems with translations is why I prefer to extract the meaning of the hexagrams directly from the line structure and the King Wen Sequence and only then look to the translations or correspondence with other systems (like the Sabian Symbols in astrology to the 360 lines of hexagrams 3-62) after knowing the original context and meaning.
Frank

 

[emc2cme]

Just when I think there's no more to be said on a topic, one of you comes along and says it, in such an interesting and fresh way. Thank you.

Nancy

 

[dobro p]

In ancient religion there was an understanding that one owed payment for Divine assistance, therefore prayer alone was considered like not tipping your waitperson.

In that context, sacrifice refers to the simple contract of making your prayer ascend to Heaven and the Divine along with the smoke of your burnt offering with the value of the sacrificial rice or ox or whatever being like original tips--to insure prompt service. The commentary is always included that it is just a gratuity not a bribe or purchase to remind folks of the importance of true sentiment and not just a flashy bankroll.

Near the head of this thread, Lindsay was speculating about the nature of sacrifice, and thought perhaps it occurred 'after the fact':

"Since it’s usually mentioned in the Judgment – that is, in the broadest response of the oracle to the question at hand – I assume it refers to something that ought to done after or because of the reading."

If you understand sacrifice in the meaning you've given here, then Lindsay's question is answered - it's something you do because it's part of the connection with the Spirits, pure and simple.

I once asked my mother why she had got married. She looked at me blankly for a minute, and then said: "That's what you DID in those days." She never questioned it, never considered options; it was just what a person did. Same thing with sacrifice in those days? (Maybe, but that seems to make it kind of superficial, a mere observance of form. I think it goes deeper than that...)

But what do you mean by 'the commentary is always included that it is just a gratuity not a bribe or purchase'? And did the sacrifice not take place BEFORE a divination or supplication as well?

 

[fkegan]

ancient religion was filled with sacrifices of all kinds

In ancient cultures, Chinese or Greek or Roman, there were a lot of sacrifices in daily life. There were routine daily sacrifices, sacrifices to mark the seasons, family sacrifices, sacrifices to go with an oracle and all other things.

So there weren't just one sacrifice to be discussed, there were many for all sorts of reasons, because that was the way folks dealt with the uncertainties in daily life.

The attitude is well captured in this quote from Meng's post: "Do we make an object sacred or does the object make us scared?" Being scared is one of the fundamental issues of the ancient world and rituals and sacrifices were parts of their logical reaction to their general fearfulness.

In the modern world we retreat into a belief our specialists (religious, academic and math/science) have the answers for us, so we don't have to notice how scary things can be in everyday life.

Making things sacred is a separate set of things. The functional mark of being made sacred or sacrificed is that the object is not no longer available for regular use. Therefore the importance of the sacrifice is the value of what it cost and how dearly you are still attached to the object or its cost.

So, any sage commentary would be filled with notes that things are supposed to be symbolic and spiritual not crass, material concerns about your status or what else you could have done with that object or the coins used to buy it.

Frank

 

[lindsay]

No need to make dubious analogies to Greece and Rome for daily sacrifices. What do you think the Mass (or Communion) is about in the Christian Church? Eat the body of Christ, drink his blood. Sounds like a sacrifice to me. How fortuitous today is Easter. Isn't that about sacrifice too?

"Dr" Frank is missing the point here. I am not concerned with pro forma sacrifices that may have preceded or followed the act of divination. He may be right about this angle, although he presents no evidence from Chinese history, religion, or history to support his assertions. Lectures without evidence, talk without relevant content.

I am interested in what the word heng/xiang means in the divination texts. Why does the Yi insist, in certain circumstances only, that a sacrifice is required as part of the reading? Again, this is usually found in the guaci rather than the yaoci. There are also many guaci that do not mention this requirement at all.

So that brings me back to the question, what is intended here? Not a routine acknowledgement to the gods. Not a mandatory act of thanksgiving. Not a reward for receiving a lucky reading. None of these really work in this situation. What is it the Yi want from us in these circumstances? In human terms?

Lindsay

 

[maremaria]

Interesting thread, with a lot of diverse opinions. Thank you.

I thought that I knew what those words really mean and the concept behind them but now I feel that I don’t know nothing…Not actually a bad thing though

I don’t want to disturb the flow of this conversation, but there is a word stuck in my mind regarding sacrifice. The word “surrender», as to relinquish possession or control of to another, biger than us ?

Do you see any association between sacrifice and surrender ?
Is what Yi advice us ?

Maria

 

[meng]

The attitude is well captured in this quote from Meng's post: "Do we make an object sacred or does the object make us scared?" Being scared is one of the fundamental issues of the ancient world and rituals and sacrifices were parts of their logical reaction to their general fearfulness.

Thanks for the credit, Frank, but I can only take credit for a typo. It should read "or does the object make us sacred." But it's true that scared and sacred do share ground in most religious sacrifices. Perhaps a refinement of that fear might be awe - a 59 experience.

 

[meng]

"I am undone." That undone-ness is, I believe, the essence of sacrifice.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Lindsay,

I am interested in what the word heng/xiang means in the divination texts. Why does the Yi insist, in certain circumstances only, that a sacrifice is required as part of the reading? Again, this is usually found in the guaci rather than the yaoci. There are also many guaci that do not mention this requirement at all.

Earlier, you also said:

Why does he ask? Maybe Choppi believes – as I do – that most occurrences of 亨 heng in the Yi ought to be read as 享 xiăng. I resisted the idea for a long time – I think emending long-established texts is often a very presumptuous exercise. But it’s the only explanation that makes sense in the light of history. There are 40-50 occurrences of “sacrifice” in the Yi, nearly all of them in the Judgment (guaci) texts. So perhaps Choppi’s question is a very astute one

Although I still think along the lines of the example I gave about Yoruba traditions and how I associate them with the occurrences of xiang3 in the Yi, I've been thinking quite a bit about what you said.


To be exact, in the received text, there are 47 occurrences of 亨 (heng1) and only 3 of 享 (xiang3), so, if there is a transcription error, I would err on the side of it being xiang3. I mean, it would be basic probabilities. However, what are the odds of an error like that happening with such a key word? I mean, it is an attractive idea that provides some simplification to certain parts of the text but I'm not convinced it is correct. I believe xiang3 is the correct character where it appears in the text.

Interesting to note a couple of facts about xiang3. The modern use of the character is "to enjoy" (as in 利享, "to enjoy the profits from the labors of others"; or 享用, "to enjoy the use of") It is in the ancient etymology of the character that is meant to note "sacrifice." Now, something curious about seeing "sacrifice" as "giving" and recently proven scientifically: read here. So, the idea of "giving/offering" as a means to receive "enjoyment" appears to have been proven a "couple" of years before that study...

Another interesting thing I found reading Karlgren, as I was preparing to write this note, is that in "Karlgren 464,r" 火享, the combination of the character for "fire," paired with the character for "sacrifice/enjoy" means a "torch for burning oracle bones"

The same way I believe xiang3 is the correct character where it appears, I also believe heng1 is correctly placed within the context of the received text.

It is a fascinating brainstorming, indeed, and I'm glad you sent me running for the books.
​

 

[dobro p]

I don’t want to disturb the flow of this conversation, but there is a word stuck in my mind regarding sacrifice. The word “surrender», as to relinquish possession or control of to another, biger than us ?

Do you see any association between sacrifice and surrender ?
Is what Yi advice us ?

The Yi advises surrender and not-doing a lot. And is there a connection between surrender and sacrifice? I'd say that surrender gets you closer to God actually. Surrender is a letting-be that arises out of the knowledge that you've done what you can do and you can't do any more; now it's up to God. So you let go of trying to control it, and you let God take care of it. When you do that, and when you sustain that for some time, God steps in. When you clear the space in your being of the ego's agenda, the universe's agenda has a chance to manifest. Simple.

Sacrifice, as I see it, is part of the preparation for surrender. Sacrifice is part of the person's personal agenda ('I'm gonna sacrifice this bull and it's the right thing to DO to get me into right relationship with the big guy upstairs.')

So - compare them. Sacrifice optimises the chances of connection with God; surrender allows God to actually step in. Which one's a more 'sacred' situation? The latter, of course.

I've used the term 'God' here cuz everybody thinks they know what I'm talking about lol. I know the Yi doesn't work in terms of the 'God' idea; you don't have to remind me.

 

[dobro p]

I am interested in what the word heng/xiang means in the divination texts. Why does the Yi insist, in certain circumstances only, that a sacrifice is required as part of the reading?

Lindsay, you keep asking this question, but you also keep ignoring the ideas that have been offered as possible answers. Okay, I'll take you up on it. Back near the beginning of the thread, Brad offered this idea:

" Sacrifice is not just the purchase price for some future reward from heaven. It was made to partake in the same process by which heaven operates. The word sacrifice itself has the etymology "to make sacred," not just to give something up."

Okay, so what do you think of it? Why doesn't it answer your question? And keep in mind that there are two parts to Brad's answer when he says 'sacrifice is not just the purchase price for some future reward from heaven' - that means that it includes the function of 'purchase price', but that it also includes the idea of 'making sacred'.

Do you object to either of those ideas? If so, why?

 

[fkegan]

details of ancient language and patterns of meaning

Lindsay-- I associated you to the fellow of the same name in Luis' quote: ["The Yi asks us to reason by analogy, not by deduction.Lindsay"] but apparently that sentiment does not ring true to you from others.

There is an absolute difference on many, many levels between the ancient world and our post modern situation. Our access to understanding any text requires being aware of those distinction.

My Professor of ancient Indian Buddhism noted in exact philological detail (with recitations and citations in five languages covering numerous centuries) the errors made by those moderns who thought they knew the meaning of the terms in their ancient texts from their meaning in modern usage. I try to avoid such overkill since it is the import and meaning that matters not the bibliography of one's library.

Your complaint about connections between ancient Greece and Rome to ancient China misses the connection I speak about on my website (www.stars-n-dice.com) about the unified global awareness in the ancient world based upon their observation that the interaction of celestial mechanics, (including differences in solar flux with the seasons) with the topography of Planet Earth controlled the water cycle and the timing of everything else whose CHANGES they needed to map and track in texts such as the I Ching.

In terms of referenced sources, The general reality of the ancient world is best captured in the famous 1864 classic <i> The Ancient City</i> by Fustel De Coulanges who wrote to remind his peers that they were not truly recreating ancient Rome and Athens in Napoleon III's imperial France.

In terms of the details of Chinese text interpretation, I rely upon my experience working with Gia-Fu Feng translating the I Ching which first and foremost impressed upon me that dealing with ancient Chinese texts required more than just the characters on the page, especially as his early training in traditional China brought with it an entire universe of context and alternative Taoist perspective that wasn't available to those who did not have roots in the culture going back at least a millennium (Gia-Fu referred to his family as immigrants to Shanghai, since they moved there when Ghenis Khan came through and mentioned he remembered uncles of his still angry over the outrage of the rape of the family's women folks then).

Your reference to Christian communion and Easter, though apropos of the day today, misses the point like most of your other remarks. That Christian ritual is a mix of remnants of what historically Jesus' followers did--find a portal to the Divine in sharing a meal with wine outside the established expectations (cf. The Historical Jesus by Crossan) and the later reconstruction of the religion in the Middle Ages (cf.Aquinas) to fit into their newly developing "modern" worldview (cf my website pages on the Scholastics and such).

You are quite correct I did not relate to your specific interest. I sought to point out how you were missing the vital, relevant and essential by looking with such tunnel vision at your characters and not knowing anything about the context which determined everything including the meaning and importance of those characters.

Thus, when you ask "What is it the Yi want from us in these circumstances? In human terms?" I return to my original comments, The Yi commentary is forever reminding us it is the feeling in the heart not the details of the outer show that is important. So, from Dr. frank--Q.E.D.

Meng-- I first assumed it was a typo in your post, but as I thought about it I realized it may not have been intentional but it was a brilliant addition to the thread and so I credited you as the one bringing it up. It was also an exquisite reminder that true meaning is not carried in the exact strokes of the characters written. The connection of "scared" with "sacred" reproduces in English some of the complexities of the history of the semantics, semiotics, and such in the development of Chinese ideograms. It is only the 'c' and the 'a' which were transposed, however that change highlights the connection and relationship of awe for the sacred, human actions of sacrifice and their implicit obsessive-compulsive psychological roots.

Dobro-- The original tips, or literally T.I.P.S. (to insure prompt service) is said to have been a custom of pub staff to put out a cup by the door where their patrons walked in with that lettering to indicate that they were listening for the clink of the coin in the cup to decide if the patron was worth the trouble of coming forward to serve. Personally, I would consider this a rather sophisticated modern acronym-based anecdote, but it expresses the concept.
In the ancient world folks tended to react to everything not under their clear control with fear and awe so there would be a ritual (perhaps including a sacrifice) for general politeness and showing of piety, a ritual with sacrifice in the t.i.p.s. style to precede a specific oracle and very likely another afterwards to show proper respect for the answer and to make sure to maximize the goodwill of the spirits (and the human diviner as well). That would be the point with the sacred/scared connection. Not to do just one sacrifice but to be obsessive about carrying out compulsive sacrifices to ward off whatever was scary.
The detailed point in the exact texts would refer to ongoing attempts of those in spiritual leadership to encourage folks to rise to a higher level in their spirituality and not just be hung up in the details (cf. hex 41). Which is another reason obsessively hassling the details in spiritual commentary dedicated to transcending that sort of things feels weird.
My mother also made remarks about her having gotten married and had children since it was what one did at the time. She put her remarks in the context that now there was the option for women to dedicate themselves to their careers solely instead.

Reviewing the history and culture of the preceding millennium, certainly up until those last decades of the 20th century, not only was it expected that a woman would marry and prove her utility by having children, it was enforced by just about anyone and everyone.

There is an example of a modern Chinese couple strolling down the street holding hands who had a chamber pot emptied upon their heads by a resident in the apartment above them since their conduct was not considered appropriate. Explains some more of hex 37 as the regulation of attraction between the sexes in the establishment of married families kept strictly indoors.


Frank

 

[dobro p]

In the ancient world folks tended to react to everything not under their clear control with fear and awe so there would be a ritual (perhaps including a sacrifice) for general politeness and showing of piety, a ritual with sacrifice in the t.i.p.s. style to precede a specific oracle and very likely another afterwards to show proper respect for the answer and to make sure to maximize the goodwill of the spirits (and the human diviner as well). That would be the point with the sacred/scared connection. Not to do just one sacrifice but to be obsessive about carrying out compulsive sacrifices to ward off whatever was scary.

This seems likely to me. In the Yi, I find three instances of xiang3 - 41, 42.2, 47.2. Any idea why they would crop up in those three particular gua? It seems significant to me that out of only three instances, two of them are found in a pair.

 

[fkegan]

Hi Dobro,
In my Flux Tome version, hex 41 and 42 are called Sacrifice and Blessing. In terms of the tetraktys, hex 41 is the monad of this entire set of 10, therefore sacrifice belongs absolutely in the first or monad hexagram. Its appearance in the second or negative polar opposite of the set can be related, as in the Wilhelm to the notion of the lower line of the trigram of Heaven has been sent down to support the lowest line of trigram Earth.

The suggestion of a sacrifice in the second line of hex 47, where the line commentary cites a situation of having plenty of food but not feeling content it would be standard advice of any spiritual guide, including Protestants like Wilhelm, that that person's problems need some prayer or sacrifice to get reconnected to the Divine.

A more structural answer involving hex 47 being the 7th of the set of Sacrifice and thus the negative pole of the x-axis double dichotomy from the seasonal loss of water from a small lake to hex 48 the central village mainstay of the well which must always yield water or the village would have to dissolve and move to better water source will have to wait until my brain recharges. Perhaps my personal hex 47.2 situation.
Frank

 

[maremaria]

So - compare them. Sacrifice optimises the chances of connection with God; surrender allows God to actually step in. Which one's a more 'sacred' situation? The latter, of course.

.

Thanks Dobro

Maria

 

[lindsay]

OK, what is this whole sacrifice issue all about (for me)?

First of all, the heng/xiang issue. In the Mawangdui MS, almost every occurrence of heng is replaced by xiang (see Shaugnessy’s transcription). In his authoritative dissertation on the Zhouyi – “The Original ‘Yijing’: A Text, Phonetic Transcription, Translation, and Indexes, with Sample Glosses”, Richard Kunst argues at length that in almost every instance it is probably more accurate to read heng as xiang according to ancient sources (see pp. 181-190). Kerson and Rosemary Huang believe heng is actually an archaic form of xiang (p. 50), and Richard Rutt also accepts the heng = xiang equation. If this is true, then everywhere heng occurs, we should read xiang “sacrifice” or “offering”. This appears to be the consensus opinion of academic scholars familiar with Old Chinese.

If heng = xiang, then there are many more references to sacrifice in the Yi than Luis says. Instead of 3, there are 50. So heng/xiang is a big deal in translating the text, especially the guaci portion. What is especially puzzling is that heng/xiang usually appears as a single, stand-alone character – or in 2-character combinations. There is no context to help us guess what is meant. I think heng/xiang alone probably means “Let there be a sacrifice” – and yuan heng/xiang means “Let there be a major sacrifice.”

Now here is my point of perplexity. Isn’t it odd that a sacrifice is called for AFTER the reading has been cast? This would seem to suggest that the sacrifice is either a form of thanksgiving or – and this idea intrigues me – the Yi is asking that we offer a sacrifice as part of fixing the omen, of actualizing the reading, of making what the Yi offers as a possibility into a reality.

I am fascinated by what a number of people in this string have suggested about using sacrifice as a way to hallow ourselves, to make ourselves worthy, to symbolize giving up the extraneous parts of ourselves so we can stand naked and pure before the God or the gods. In this way, by purifying our intentions and motives, by heating ourselves in the alchemical crucible to our white-hot essence, we can follow the Dao. All that is left is our original nature.

I don’t know if any of this is in the Yi – but if it is, then the Yi may have a spiritual dimension rarely discussed.

Lindsay

 

[fkegan]

Sacrifice vs. surrender

Maria--
Surrender as an invitation for God to step into one's life tends to be more of a Christian notion than anything compatible with ancient sacrifice where what was made sacred by the sacrifice (sacri-fice Latin for sacred and made) was whatever it was that got thrown on the fire and destroyed on Earth but carried to Heaven in the smoke.

However, for us modern folks, learning to accept a spirit or Oracle is a surrender of objective training and expectation and a truly insightful oracle may give a sense being hallowed by the connection to the mystical Divine.

In Wilhelm, hex 16, image with commentary by Confucius speaks of the spiritual power of music and of the 'great sacrifice' which was the ultimate expression of Chinese culture which seems totally different from any of the things discussed in this thread.

Lindsay,
Taoist perspectives about returning the the state of the uncarved block or infant too young to smile tend to be connected with Buddhist notions of attaining liberation by transcending individual expectations. There is Taoist alchemy involving fire and crucibles, though for aligning a person to the Dao, the metaphor of flowing water seems more to the point. Burning off impurities in a white hot crucible is a lot more energy used in a more Christian way. Taoist tradition is rather the more relaxed image of water flowing exactly along the exact contours of the topography than burning off impurities to get your soul to higher carats to impress God with your golden purity.

Frank

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Lindsay,

First of all, the heng/xiang issue. In the Mawangdui MS, almost every occurrence of heng is replaced by xiang (see Shaugnessy’s transcription). In his authoritative dissertation on the Zhouyi – “The Original ‘Yijing’: A Text, Phonetic Transcription, Translation, and Indexes, with Sample Glosses”, Richard Kunst argues at length that in almost every instance it is probably more accurate to read heng as xiang according to ancient sources (see pp. 181-190). Kerson and Rosemary Huang believe heng is actually an archaic form of xiang (p. 50), and Richard Rutt also accepts the heng = xiang equation. If this is true, then everywhere heng occurs, we should read xiang “sacrifice” or “offering”. This appears to be the consensus opinion of academic scholars familiar with Old Chinese.

I'll get back to you on this with some thoughts that don't look pulled out of thin air... My logical reasoning on what I said before was that a scribe is more likely to make three mistakes in transcription than forty seven... Specially given the difference in meaning between the two characters, even though they look so similar.

Now here is my point of perplexity. Isn’t it odd that a sacrifice is called for AFTER the reading has been cast? This would seem to suggest that the sacrifice is either a form of thanksgiving or – and this idea intrigues me – the Yi is asking that we offer a sacrifice as part of fixing the omen, of actualizing the reading, of making what the Yi offers as a possibility into a reality.

With this I agree and I believe fits with what I said before about "sacrifice" being, in certain contexts, a form of reciprocity.

 

[maremaria]

Hi Frank,

With the word “surrender», as I said back, I meant to relinquish some of our possession or control of to another, bigger than us without meaning something specific. The other can be out there or inwards us.
As for the sacrifice, ancient sacrifices are more familiar to me than the Christian notion.If I’m not wrong Hesiodus in his work Theogony mentions as the origin of sacrifice being a trick by Prometheus that make Zeus ( the father of the Greek gods) accepting the bones and fat of sacrifice instead of the meat. This incident’s significance has to do with a change in the relationship between men and gods but I can’t recall exactly why.
I only recall that Prometheus wanted to give the meat to men because they need it to survive and the men reached the gods through the smoke of the burned bones accenting in the sky.
Maybe you know something more about that, since you seem familiar with ancient history

(for the gentlemen in this forum the story goes like that : Zeus got mad and took the fire from men, Prometheus took it back, Zeus got angry again and to punish men created woman…..)

 

[meng]

Now here is my point of perplexity. Isn’t it odd that a sacrifice is called for AFTER the reading has been cast? This would seem to suggest that the sacrifice is either a form of thanksgiving or – and this idea intrigues me – the Yi is asking that we offer a sacrifice as part of fixing the omen, of actualizing the reading, of making what the Yi offers as a possibility into a reality.

First, I think most users offer a sacrifice before asking, just by being willing to drop their own defense enough to receive input from this source. Maybe that's one small bowl for the sacrifice? Maybe the second small bowl is required after receiving the answer, through working on it internally: chewing, ingesting, contemplating, processing, letting the food's chemistry get into us on a cellular level.

Isn't that like Holy Communion? There is the sacrifice/offering/belief/ceremony, before the bread and wine is consecrated. Then you eat the body and drink the blood, and it is then that you become renewed and empowered - changed.

 

[charly]

... (for the gentlemen in this forum the story goes like that : Zeus got mad and took the fire from men, Prometheus took it back, Zeus got angry again and to punish men created woman…..)

María:

Nice punishment!

But I don't trust in Zeus motives, seeing how he behaved, I believe that he created the woman for his own profit.

Yours,

Charly

 

[meng]

Zeus got angry again and to punish men created woman…..)

And a damn fine job he did of it too!

 

[maremaria]

.....just by being willing to drop their own defense enough to receive input from this source. ------.

this is exactly what I meant by using the word "surrender"