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Sensing differences - a snap - how to proceed - 28.3

em ching

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Hello,

I have started taking antidepressants and aside from 3 or 4 days of side effects (minor) I have felt excellent - no sinking feelings, no hopelessness, no self hatred, no mistrust of others - feeling more confident and expansive.
BUT today spoke to a very old and dependable childhood friend on the phone - we have become closer since moving home but we are very different (kind of like sisters when little). She is a mental health nurse.
I had a feeling, a thought that I wouldn't tell her I was on anti-depressants, because even though I know she's the first person who'd want to help and listen I didn't want to become her patient at all... I also know that the lives of people she helps on a daily basis are so traumatic - that she maybe finds it harder to understand friends resorting to them. I sensed a reserve when I told her - scepticism - which I was expecting so wasn't going to tell her, but the subject came up and it popped out. Just thought its best to be open and honest (get that from my dad) - still haven't learnt that some things, from certain people, should be kept quiet.

I felt like I was defending myself to her, digging a hole in the process. And felt a horrible sinking feeling I haven't had for a while. And now I'm worrying about it. That the relation will be changed. I think it's not good to be so open about weaknesses with certain people. She has a heart of gold but I just feel really uncomfortable about it. I'm seeing her tomorrow and slightly dreading it. The relationship feels strained and my readings reflect this suspicion.

I first asked for help with my awful feelings of catastrophe over something that perhaps is minor and can be moved past.
28. 4 > 47
Oh dear.

Should I not have told her?
33.1,3,5 > 21
Seems not - an inappropriate topic to broach with her (irony being she's a mental health nurse) and 21 - a bone of contention (certainly feels that way - I actually felt like I wanted to hang up on her!)

How to proceed with her?
28.3,4 > 29

Oh dear... Does it perhaps mean that this is dangerous ground as on such topics we are not on the same wavelength? But how to proceed along a sagging ridge pole?

Would very much appreciate help with this. I also thought to myself I shouldn't tell to many people about being on them - except family - because apart from anything else, in my silly head I may be over thinking them and thus they'd lose their effect! If I make too big a deal out of them. Rather than them just being a way to re-balance - which I tried to explain to her, but I felt unconvincingly. Maybe it's also partly due to my tendency to see all sides to everything - and so to doubt my own standpoint.

Argh

:bows:
 
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em ching

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Lise's interpretations really help on this. It needen't sabotage the relationship.

28.3> If you believe you are weak or old or failing, then you will make it true. These are not feelings of real life, they are just negative ideas.

- I don't have to let this hiccup ruin anything.

28.4 > Even strong or secure people sometimes suddenly lose their self-confidence. Don’t panic, it is a natural thing to happen and a sign of a living mind. Make it part of your life, so it is not alien and unruly. Being strong does not mean never to be weak, it means being able to cope with weakness.

- Wow.

33.1 > There is only one way of withdrawing from action: not acting. But it is one of the most difficult things to accomplish. Impulses, instincts, habits, and worst of all: reactions, they all make the limbs move before one realizes it. Make your mind crystal-clear, so it follows only the slopes of universal patterns.

- letting me off the hook (I knew I shouldn't have gone there... but still did. :footinmouth:)

33.3 > In everything one does or meets, there are lower aspects. Stress, disappointment, misunderstanding, claims. Do not fight them, just retreat from them, untie yourself, let them go and move on

- will do.

33.5 > Withdraw to the small area where you are good and where you know the way.

- agree to disagree.

Another site says this of 28.3 and 4:

3.Plunging willfully ahead during risky times, against the advice of your friends and intimates, invites trouble. Action may be called for, but never obstinacy. The support of friends and allies is necessary for any large undertaking; their advice can only be ignored at your own peril.
4.Friendly relations with all types of people can become critical in times of crisis. But if you use the support of those of lower rank and status, you must keep their interests at heart as well as your own. Otherwise, misfortune.

So I wonder if this means I should remember that she may be able to sense my distrust/ discomfort/ defensiveness which would hurt her?? Or maybe that the friendship is being tested....
And the best way to proceed, is to retreat from the issue... and hope we don't get annoyed with each other over other things... but then that's life I suppose....
:bows:
 
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Trojina

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Hello,

I have started taking antidepressants and aside from 3 or 4 days of side effects (minor) I have felt excellent - no sinking feelings, no hopelessness, no self hatred, no mistrust of others - feeling more confident and expansive.
BUT today spoke to a very old and dependable childhood friend on the phone - we have become closer since moving home but we are very different (kind of like sisters when little). She is a mental health nurse.
I had a feeling, a thought that I wouldn't tell her I was on anti-depressants, because even though I know she's the first person who'd want to help and listen I didn't want to become her patient at all... I also know that the lives of people she helps on a daily basis are so traumatic - that she maybe finds it harder to understand friends resorting to them. I sensed a reserve when I told her - scepticism - which I was expecting so wasn't going to tell her, but the subject came up and it popped out. Just thought its best to be open and honest (get that from my dad) - still haven't learnt that some things, from certain people, should be kept quiet.

I felt like I was defending myself to her, digging a hole in the process. And felt a horrible sinking feeling I haven't had for a while. And now I'm worrying about it. That the relation will be changed. I think it's not good to be so open about weaknesses with certain people. She has a heart of gold but I just feel really uncomfortable about it. I'm seeing her tomorrow and slightly dreading it. The relationship feels strained and my readings reflect this suspicion.
First i can say i can totally relate to this feeling, especially re telling old friends things. Not sure exactly why it is, that sinking feeling, i only know its a signal for me to move on in the relationship. i don't mean to totally cut them off or anything...but theres this strange sense of them giving or not giving approval to our decisions...that just gives this sinking feeling, and it feels they are just not truly in synch with us or expect us to be a certain way..or I don't know I just know i can recognise that feeling you describe...well actually theres liberation in truly realising you don't need her approval. I can understand why you dread seeing her...perhaps you feel you will have to 'perform' to be the person she thinks you are or the person she expects you to be....?

I first asked for help with my awful feelings of catastrophe over something that perhaps is minor and can be moved past.
28. 4 > 47
Oh dear.
First go easy on yourself, you haven't been well, you still aren't well and i don't mean that in a patronising way. These bad feelings don't disappear over night and in a sense this is a good sign i think that the pills don't just zombie you out..you are still in there. The 28 shows your extremity over this, your're on edge, you have been feeling on the edge, you are still battling with depression (47).. well 28.4 says you can manage this but do not load any more on yourself. Apart from taking these pills you also have to care for yourself as if you were not well. IOW be really kind to yourself and don't make yourself do things that really stress you. Anyway to me the reading shows you can cope with this but don't overload yourself ..think about how much social engagements tax you, how often you can cope with them and so on. in 28.4 you have enough support, you're okay for now,,,just don't push it.

Should I not have told her?
33.1,3,5 > 21
Seems not - an inappropriate topic to broach with her (irony being she's a mental health nurse) and 21 - a bone of contention (certainly feels that way - I actually felt like I wanted to hang up on her!)
theres no 'should' here. Its really hard not to tell old close friends things that are important to us and this was an important decision for you as you thought it over alot and discussed it here so I find it completely understandable that you told her. Having said that you felt like hanging up and that sounds a genuine 33 response. Well i think 33.3 shows you gave her a little too much power by telling her. In 33.3 those that 'hold 'us shouldn't really...they are our servants not our masters but we have let exersize some power..and really we needn't give a damn thats all and 33,5 hey you can still withdraw if you like. When you see her don't talk about it or indicate the subject is closed or distract her with other stuff.

How to proceed with her?
28.3,4 > 29

Oh dear... Does it perhaps mean that this is dangerous ground as on such topics we are not on the same wavelength? But how to proceed along a sagging ridge pole?
29 shows this kind of issue isn't new to you. How to proceed...well whatever you do take how you feel into account and if you feel awful like you can't cope with her (28.3)tomorrow then cancel it. Its your right if oyu don't feel well. However 28.4 shows alls well as long as you don't strain yourself too much. How about making it quite a short visit...just don't do it to the extent it feels a massive strain on you.

Would very much appreciate help with this. I also thought to myself I shouldn't tell to many people about being on them - except family - because apart from anything else, in my silly head I may be over thinking them and thus they'd lose their effect! If I make too big a deal out of them. Rather than them just being a way to re-balance - which I tried to explain to her, but I felt unconvincingly. Maybe it's also partly due to my tendency to see all sides to everything - and so to doubt my own standpoint.

Argh

:bows:
Okay the important person here is you not her. You don't need to explain anything to her. Sounds like what might be happening is you want her to see you in a certain way, as she always has which will mean hiding current vulnerabilities from her and when you aren't well with depression this kind of act is just too much burden on your psychic energy really, i think thats what the 28.3 is. So my opinion is you should make your visit with her bearing your own well being uppermost in your mind.

Also though its early days on the anti depressants bear in mind as someone else said, i think it was Anne, theres lots of work for you to do on this...the pills just help make life bearable while you work things out however long it takes. How you handle socialising is part of the 'work' i think...it can be hard at the best of times so don't go too hard on yourself now. The 28.3 may be your own expectations of yourself..that you can be seriously depressed, take some pills and still be able to meet the requirements and expectations of old friends ...same as usual. Things aren't 'as usual', you are under a heavy load , the depression, so take it easy possibly as you might if you had flu. You have to take care of your self now more than meet others demands

(Think about what this tells you about where you are with her that you have to justify to her why you take anti depressants, pretend you haven't been going through hell and they are 'just to rebalance'.., why would youhave to pretend this ? To make her feel alright ? see what i'm getting at ? )
 
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Trojina

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So I wonder if this means I should remember that she may be able to sense my distrust/ discomfort/ defensiveness which would hurt her?? Or maybe that the friendship is being tested....
And the best way to proceed, is to retreat from the issue... and hope we don't get annoyed with each other over other things... but then that's life I suppose....
:bows:
If you are going thrugh a difficult depression I imagine all friendships will be tested. Consider how you related to people in the past may not always have served you. Now you may want to break free of those patterns...are those people going to let you (hmm33.3)
their world has to change a little too if you change...so let them . you don't always have to adapt to them. Trust yourself...you have to be guided by your feelings not other peoples..it won't help depression to be thinking of others feelings rather than your own and wanting to hang up the phone sounds pretty real to me. You feel she is being skeptical of your decision and you don't feel comfortable with that. Thats your reality, honour it. If you feel at any time shes taking the converstaion where you don't want it to go do the 33.5...and 33.5 is a happy withdrawal not a stressed one so that should be okay.
 
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tigerintheboat

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Transitional

How to proceed with her?
28.3,4 > 29

Oh dear... Does it perhaps mean that this is dangerous ground as on such topics we are not on the same wavelength? But how to proceed along a sagging ridge pole?
This is the only important question....I want to think along the lines of the Bradford's transitional hexagrams here, since lines 3 and 4 of H28 are essentially opposites.

H28. the pressures with her are great, and sure enough (line 3) the ridgepole breaks. Probably indicates some break or deterioration in the relationship. From the Wikiwing: "Words are not trusted, you’re altogether on your own." This leads to...

H47. Line 4: You are feeling oppressed, and somewhat cut off, and Line 4, you are not as agile and responsive as you could be, the result of the drug/bronze chariot? There is shame, but there is completion. Perhaps you don't respond as fast as you had in the past, but you are still there and just moving differently. Different strokes for different folks.

Finally, H29, you are in water, confined in the Repeating Chasms (H29). Don't thrash, just go with the water and let it carry you downstream.

This is not a recipe to proceed, but a description of how things may proceed, and not a pretty picture. But a mental health nurse may be a worse case (my wife was a psych nurse, and they see the worst of the medicated patients, so there may be some prejudice that can't be overcome). The best you can do is continue to try to relate, and if the waters rise, just keep your head up.

I am not sure that this "ridgepole relationship" is any kind of indication about how other people will take things. Most of the population is all for finding the right chemical mix to make life better. But if it were me, being a closed mouth male type, I would say as little as possible to people I didn't feel very close to. (Men usually have to learn how to open up a little and women how to close down a little).

Can you try pretending that everything about you is so transparent that you don't need to tell anyone...that you are not hiding, but just don't need to state the obvious.? Then you may feel you don't need to talk about this pill you are taking....

Tiger
 

em ching

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First i can say i can totally relate to this feeling, especially re telling old friends things. Not sure exactly why it is, that sinking feeling, i only know its a signal for me to move on in the relationship. i don't mean to totally cut them off or anything...but theres this strange sense of them giving or not giving approval to our decisions...
I can understand why you dread seeing her...perhaps you feel you will have to 'perform' to be the person she thinks you are or the person she expects you to be....?

These bad feelings don't disappear over night and in a sense this is a good sign i think that the pills don't just zombie you out..you are still in there. :rofl:

Having said that you felt like hanging up and that sounds a genuine 33 response. Well i think 33.3 shows you gave her a little too much power by telling her. In 33.3 those that 'hold 'us shouldn't really...they are our servants not our masters but we have let exersize some power..and really we needn't give a damn thats all and 33,5 hey you can still withdraw if you like. When you see her don't talk about it or indicate the subject is closed or distract her with other stuff.

Also though its early days on the anti depressants bear in mind as someone else said, i think it was Anne, theres lots of work for you to do on this...the pills just help make life bearable while you work things out however long it takes... Think about what this tells you about where you are with her that you have to justify to her why you take anti depressants.

Amazing. Thank you so much Trojan. I breathed a sigh of relief reading this. Everything you said really helped. I laughed out loud when you said 'you are still in there'.
I did go and see her - we went Xmas shopping - and we didn't talk about it. But we talked about everything else and it was fun and relaxed! I think her reservations probably does have something to do with seeing properly zombied our patients on her ward - and maybe part of her feels she doesn't want to lose her friend to that. But from my point of view I really do feel on top of things now - and even though thing haven't changed much and I still have regrets and hurts to nurse - as you say, the pills are helping me cope with that. I have been genuinely really cheerful - loosened up! When my cousin first started taking anti-d's and was suddenly far more bouncy and enthusiastic, part of me did feel slightly critical. I was happy for her, but couldn't help feeling it was artifically induced and not completely real. Now I realise that is her best self able to break through - the pills help disperse the negativity! They don't change you. Just free you up and help you to be the best you can be.

I did still have reservations yesterday morning about going, but I felt that if she cancelled on me I'd feel hurt - so I know she'd be hurt too. Apart from that it would prolong the issue. However, I thought maybe I needed more time, so I asked the I ching
I got 20.2> 59.
'One tends to relate everything to oneself and cannot put oneself in another's place and understand his motives ... for a man who must take active part in public life, such a narrow, egotistic way of contemplating things is of course harmful.'

That was clearly saying I should think of her too. And I know she always means well. Also, I really don't want to push anymore people away. 'Friendship is a responsibility not an opportunity' (Taoist quote). She is a valuable friend and we had a good time! And I'm glad I told her - it has made me see other perspectives (as does every mistake/learning curve). Although I won't bring it up again - with anyone unless it seems appropriate.

You feel she is being skeptical of your decision and you don't feel comfortable with that. Thats your reality, honour it. If you feel at any time shes taking the converstaion where you don't want it to go do the 33.5...and 33.5 is a happy withdrawal not a stressed one so that should be okay.
Yes exactly.
Thanks so much!

:bows:
 

em ching

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H28. the pressures with her are great, and sure enough (line 3) the ridgepole breaks. Probably indicates some break or deterioration in the relationship. From the Wikiwing: "Words are not trusted, you’re altogether on your own." This leads to...

H47. Line 4: You are feeling oppressed, and somewhat cut off, and Line 4, you are not as agile and responsive as you could be, the result of the drug/bronze chariot? There is shame, but there is completion. Perhaps you don't respond as fast as you had in the past, but you are still there and just moving differently. Different strokes for different folks.

Finally, H29, you are in water, confined in the Repeating Chasms (H29). Don't thrash, just go with the water and let it carry you downstream.

This is not a recipe to proceed, but a description of how things may proceed, and not a pretty picture. But a mental health nurse may be a worse case (my wife was a psych nurse, and they see the worst of the medicated patients, so there may be some prejudice that can't be overcome). The best you can do is continue to try to relate, and if the waters rise, just keep your head up.

I am not sure that this "ridgepole relationship" is any kind of indication about how other people will take things. Most of the population is all for finding the right chemical mix to make life better. But if it were me, being a closed mouth male type, I would say as little as possible to people I didn't feel very close to. (Men usually have to learn how to open up a little and women how to close down a little).

Can you try pretending that everything about you is so transparent that you don't need to tell anyone...that you are not hiding, but just don't need to state the obvious.? Then you may feel you don't need to talk about this pill you are taking....

Tiger
That's brilliant Tiger. Yes I definitely fall into the female category of saying too much sometimes. Definitely need to be more aware of this aspect of myself as I shoot myself in the foot. And this is a pretty accurate interpretation of how I felt at the time:

H47. Line 4: You are feeling oppressed, and somewhat cut off, and Line 4, you are not as agile and responsive as you could be, the result of the drug/bronze chariot? There is shame, but there is completion. Perhaps you don't respond as fast as you had in the past, but you are still there and just moving differently. Different strokes for different folks.

So wow :) And yes my friend has told me a lot of awfully sad stories - how many of the patients are just dished up the drugs and ignored (whereas she's trying to engage them). She's a very dedicated nurse, but I think she does sometimes idealize. Some people can't rouse themselves to be happy without drugs to alter their brain chemistry first if mental illness has been so long term it's become a part of their physical makeup. I agree that they should be combined with activities and counselling etc. but I think drugs allow you the confidence and thus belief that these diversions can really help. So I think in many cases both are necessary and anything which makes you feel better should not be criticized, which I think she also needs to be more aware of too.

:bows:
 

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