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Takashima Ekidan

peter2610

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Takashima Ekidan:

Have now received a reply from the British Library regarding my request through inter-library loans. The book is currently held in their 'reference reading section' and as such is not available for external loan. I was intending to scan a few pages and post them on Clarity to give people a general overview of the book - but clearly the time has not yet come. Sorry guys.
 

pocossin

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Thanks for trying. I haven't hear anything else from U.Va. yet.
 

sparhawk

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Takashima Ekidan:

Have now received a reply from the British Library regarding my request through inter-library loans. The book is currently held in their 'reference reading section' and as such is not available for external loan. I was intending to scan a few pages and post them on Clarity to give people a general overview of the book - but clearly the time has not yet come. Sorry guys.
Good to know and thanks for trying, Peter! :bows:
 

pocossin

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Who's closer to VA, me in SJersey or you in NC? :D
If I knew where Square Root of New Jersey was I could calculate. I'm about 205 miles from Charlottesville according to

http://www.myrateplan.com/how_far/

Is the Square Root of New Jersey an irrational number :) I'm still hoping that the Takashima Ekidan will become a Google book.

Additionally, the above distance calculator says: It is 223 miles between Camden, NJ and Charlottesville, VA.
 
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sparhawk

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Darn! 232 miles from my house, according to Google maps. :)
 

peter2610

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Have you tried asking your local library if there's an inter-state lending service such that your library could borrow from VA ?
 

pocossin

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Have you tried asking your local library if there's an inter-state lending service such that your library could borrow from VA ?
I haven't. The book is so rare that I don't want it trusted to the mail.
 

charly

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From Miki Sima:The Medical I Ching: Oracle of the Healer
The Takashima school of Yi Jing divination is the largest organization of Yi Jing practitioners in Japan. In this particular school the greatest emphasis is placed on symbolic association of the exact language of the Yi Jing text itself, rather than resorting to systematic analysis of trigrams, hexagrams and lines.

Footnote in page 196
This book quotes some Takashima readings that can be seen at Google Books.

Ch.
 

sparhawk

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Hot of the presses, there are a couple of friends in Europe that have obtained a copy of the 1893 Takashima Ekidan. One is Robert Matusan-Boyler and Nathalie Mourier in France. She writes in French but check her latest posting with a scanning of H14 from Takashimas, here. There's a link in that post that will download a PDF file.
 

charly

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... Donsho TAKASHIMA Kaemon, famous for his great success in Japanese divination... was originally from the Yokohama business world. Takashima-cho near Yokohama Station still bears his name. He was also the father-in-law of ITO's adopted son, Hirokuni, making him a relative of ITO's. Whenever there were questions about a political situation, TAKASHIMA would make a reading at the behest of ITO. Article's can be found here and there in contemporary newspapers about ITO's having had readings taken of the Diet's prospects. There is a common belief that he urged Ito to cancel his trip when he gave Ito his reading, kon'isan, right before he was assassinated. TAKASHIMA's divinations were also a subject of discussion by important figures, as can be seen in sent to Ito by men such as IWAKURA Tomomi and MOTODA Nagazane, but as the divinations were left unsigned, one also cannot say for certain from the handwriting who wrote them. Still, KOMATSU Midori, a confidante to ITO in his later years, did say that ITO had said that the divinations were accurate because they were made "after the fact"

From: Book of Divination of Leading Figures
at: http://www.ndl.go.jp/modern/e/column/04.html
True?, calumny? To divinate the past has also merit.

Ch.
 

pocossin

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Where is the missing money?
14.4 > 26

14.4 匪其彭。无咎 in Marshall's 1935 Harvard-Yenching Zhouyi. Bradford has 無 for the fourth character.

The bamboo cage is splendid and is free from blame. The Chinese character for the bamboo cage is also the character for the word not.
Is 匪 the character for bamboo cage?
 

bradford

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14.4 匪其彭。无咎 in Marshall's 1935 Harvard-Yenching Zhouyi. Bradford has 無 for the fourth character.
无 and 無 are actually the same word, Wu, meaning No or Not. The first version is unavailable in the Big5 character set so I was forced to substitute. That happened in a few places, see notes at Vol II p 409
 

bradford

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To be at least a little kind, 14.4 is usually one of the least understood lines in the Yi.
The gist of it is found in the Fan Yao, the young bull's corral. 14.4 refers to acceptance of a subordinate position and the kind of wealth that is represented by relief from the weight of ownership, dominion and responsibility. This a quick cost-benefit analysis that suggests that there is wealth outside of ownership.
 

bradford

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Under "Root Pictographs and Idiographs" zhongwen gives bamboo basket as a meaning for 匪.

http://www.zhongwen.com/
So does Karlgren. But that isn't a cage. And it doesn't fit the context. And it doesn't justify changing the meaning of Peng2. And it doesn't account for the presence of Wu Jiu.

Also its use as a negative is perfectly consistent throughout the Zhouyi: it is not (3.2, 4.0, 22.4), to not be (14.1), to be without (25.0) and as the adjective bad or wrong at (8.3, 12.0). That's not in itself a proof since the Chinese language is polysemous, but it at least suggests a burden of proof for someone departing from these other seven instances.
 

charly

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Under "Root Pictographs and Idiographs" zhongwen gives bamboo basket as a meaning for 匪.

http://www.zhongwen.com/
Hi, Tom:

I couldn´t verify in Jim Bren´s dictionary but I found this in Kanji Networks:

匪 (10) ヒ

As per 非 (Type 1 Phonetic) (spread to right and left) + 匚 enclosure → basket with lids / doors that open to either side. Bandit, evil person and not are borrowed meanings.

An Etymological Dictionary of Chinese Character Interpretations
By Lawrence J. Howell and Hikaru Morimoto
For consulting the dictionary you must suscribe with a valid e-mail and you get access with a password.

Also found in Zdic.net
匪 fei ...
(1) (形声。从匚( fāng),盛物之器。非声。本义:“篚”的古字。竹器,形似竹箧)
(2) 同本义 [round bamboo basket]
...
http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE5Zdic8CZdicAA.htm
and...
篚fei ...
round or oval covered-baskets with short legs
http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE7ZdicAFZdic9A.htm


Yours,

Charly
 

pocossin

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匚 enclosure
非 wings

匪 a bamboo bird cage
 

charly

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匚 enclosure
非 wings

匪 a bamboo bird cage
Well found Tom:

Takashima says that the same character used for meaning CAGE is used for meaning NOT, maybe he was speaking of FEI, that also means NOT and not of WU although it also seems a cage in one of their calligraphies.


Yours,

Charly
 

bradford

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Does anyone really believe that this circle jerk is advancing anybody's knowledge of the Yijing, or of the simple message that the authors were trying to convey with this line?
 

pocossin

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More on the I Ching in Japan:

In the Deguchi sect, the ancient belief is explained by the Chinese Book of Changes (or Divination). Deguchi Nobuyoshi, the founder, was god-warden or _kannushi_ of the Geiku or Outer Palace Temple at Ise. He promulgated his views about the year 1660, basing them upon the book called Eki by the Japanese and Yi-king by the Chinese . . . Deguchi explained the myths of the age of the gods by divination or eki, based on the Chinese books. As late as 1893 there was published in Tokio a work in Japanese, with good translation info English, on Scientific Morality, or the practical guidance of life by means of divination--The Takashima Ekidan (or Monograph on the Eki of Mr. Takashima), by S. Sugiura.
-- Project Gutenberg's The Religions of Japan, by William Elliot Griffis

Deguchi was appointed Provisional Suppliant Priest (gon-negi) of the Outer Shrine at the age of six, and received the Junior Lower Fifth rank. He dedicated his life to the reconstruction of the learned traditions of the Grand Shrines, which had been reduced to ruins in the wars of the late medieval period. In 1648 he founded the library Toyomiyazaki Bunko as a center for the education of the Ise priesthood, and mixed with daimyō and courtiers as well as Confucians in order to collect books for this library. He had his students make copies of classical texts and other Shinto works that had been lost in Ise, or set out on trips to borrow and copy them himself. His work Yōbukuki (Record Complete on the Day of the Winter Solstice, 1650), which offers a plain account of Ise Shintō teachings, was published early in his life and served to spread knowledge of Ise Shintō among the general public. Emperor Go-Kōmyō perused this work and was much impressed with Deguchi's erudition. Deguchi's works strongly reflect the view, current at that time, that Shinto and Confucianism are ultimately one. He had a special interest in the Ijing (the Book of Changes), and argued that the Way of the kami and the Way of the Ijing are identical.
http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=423
 

charly

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Does anyone really believe that this circle jerk is advancing anybody's knowledge of the Yijing, or of the simple message that the authors were trying to convey with this line?
I don't know others, but I do.

Charly
 

bradford

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I don't know others, but I do.
Charly
Well, of course you do. But without critical thinking skills every datum is equal to every other datum and every point of view is equally valid. All this will leave you with is a huge pile of unconnected bits of information and no clue as to the central meaning of the lines. This deficiency is already showing glaringly in your analysis of the Yijing texts.
It's mostly just ramified data without a central core.
 

charly

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Well, of course you do. But without critical thinking skills every datum is equal to every other datum and every point of view is equally valid. All this will leave you with is a huge pile of unconnected bits of information and no clue as to the central meaning of the lines. This deficiency is already showing glaringly in your analysis of the Yijing texts.
It's mostly just ramified data without a central core.
Hi, Brad:

Maybe I don't share your ideas about what is good criticism. Beyond your personal dislike, I wonder how do you see your apports to the matters of this thread.

Even with my little erudition, I can see that the stuff provided by Luis is of great importance.

Takashima enjoys a great fame in Japan and we have now the opportunity of reading a sample of his translation an his methods.

I believe that his translation is exceptional for his time and now I understan why Takashima is said to have modernized the old practice of Change divination.

For better undestanding I will post here the received chinese text of H.14 comparatively with Legge, W/B and Takashima translations.

H.14:
大有‧元亨‧
da4 you3 yuan2 heng1
GREAT HAVE SUPREME FEAST

LEGGE: Dà Yǒu indicates that, (under the circumstances which it implies), there will be great progress and success.

W/B: Possession in great measure. Supreme success.

TAKASHIMA: A mighty possession. Perfectly auspicious.


14.4:
匪其彭‧無咎‧
fei3 qi2 peng2 wu jiu
NOT HIS SWOLLEN (1). WITHOUT BLAME.

LEGGE: ... shows its subject keeping his great resources under restraint. There will be no error.

W/B: He makes a difference Between himself and his neighbor. No blame.

TAKASHIMA: Is no proud of his splendor and is free from blame.
For fitting the text to the terms of the consult in divination, he altered the translation so:

14.4:
The bamboo cage is splendid and is free from blame.
(The chinese character for the bamboo cage is also the character for the word not [fei3], hence the translation is altered from that of the text)
In the practice of divination he aloows himself some professional licences. Say no fixed, deffinitive translation, but plastic.

Lack of periphrasis, almost literal translation. And freedom for using it.

(TO BE CONTINUED)


Charly

P.D.:
I wonder what happened to the money of Takashima's friend.
Who did put the money into the bamboo cage?
I suspect of Takashima, don't you?
Ch.

_______________________
(1) Not sure of the sense of PENG, maybe Legge and Wilhelm neither.
Peng2:​ surname Peng > Peng Zu, a chinese Mathusalem, expert in "longevity techniques"?
peng2: friend, to "make friends" > neighbor ?
peng2: swollen > proud ?
peng2: luxuriant growth > splendor ?
 
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bradford

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The simple fact that Takashima was famous or historically important is not as important to me as looking into a translation that makes sense and shows understanding. The bamboo cage is a really bad idea and does not command my respect. There are thousands of books on the YIjing and I've wasted enough time on the ridiculous ones. Maybe he's got some good ideas in there but that one just ain't worth dwelling on.
I just posted a little article in Open Space called "Un-Learning the Yijing" to clarify my reasons for being so judgmental.
 

pocossin

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The bamboo cage is a really bad idea and does not command my respect.
Don't get the cage, eh Bradford? Takashima wasn't making a translation. He was making a divinatory interpretation. It's a poetic application. I think it's a beautiful idea. In Chinese poetry (according to Fenallosa) the Chinese use character components as Takashima apparently did.
 

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