Tenth Wing--Zagua "Miscellaneous Hexagrams"

[hilary]

So why is harassment being allowed to go on here ?

We deliberately have very few rules here, to allow as much freedom of discussion as possible. So if David wants to belittle other people's ideas when by his own admission he isn't interested in them and won't be contributing anything to their exploration, he's free to do so. (Use pm or the Moderation forum or something that is not a thread about the Zagua if you want to suggest a change in the rules.)

 

[Trojina]

So if David wants to belittle other people's ideas when by his own admission he isn't interested in them and won't be contributing anything to their exploration, he's free to do so.

I will continue in PM but you are asking me to go elsewhere to talk about this whilst suffering this blatant relentless belittling of someone's work to continue right here. If discussion of this cannot go on here neither should this harassment go on.

Discussion involves interest. There is apparently no interest except to call new ideas worth looking at for patterns and such 'assumptions'. Someone needs to broaden their vocabulary even for effective belittling.

 

[Freedda]

belittle other people's ideas

Great, T calls what I'm doing harassment and you call it belittling -- so who's zooming who here?

I have repeatedly said that I am open to seeing what anyone has found out - or will find out about the order of the Zagua - and I have also said that I think the Zagua can be a useful tool in interpretation, if people want to use it. And I have also apologized if I said - or people think I have said - otherwise.

And besides, who they hell gives anyone the right to decide what I'm interested in or not, or when I can or cannot comment on something? I very clearly remember times that Trojina had no real interest in what others said, but just wanted to criticize them or drive them away - like she's doing in this post - but I guess that's okay.

But does that mean I am not allowed to question when someone tells me- without proof - that they have a 'hypothesis', or that they assume that there's some reason for the mixed up order of the Zagua, but they provide no real reason or proof of that? Those seem like fair questions to me, but obviously some people's own biases let them see them differently.

PS - I assume that T's comments about 'harassment' and yours about 'belittling' are in fact themselves harassing and belittling, and that Hilary will take them down immediately. Or is it as I suspect, that what's good for the gander doesn't apply to some of the geese?

 

[Trojina]

What I said is I'm not all that interested in it right now, so I'm not going to be the one exploring these assumptions.

And besides, who they hell gives anyone the right to decide what I'm interested in or not,

 

[Trojina]

But does that mean I am not allowed to question when someone tells me- without proof - that they have a 'hypothesis',

Basic misunderstanding of the word 'hypothesis'. A hypothesis is a theory not yet proven so to say 'someone tells me without proof that they have a hypothesis' is nonsensical.

This is a very basic misunderstanding - no hypothesis is proven yet. Do you understand that ? Look it up on Google. If it was proven it wouldn't be called a 'hypothesis'.

So all along you've been arguing out of misunderstanding of the word.

So you aren't interested and you don't know what the word 'hypothesis' means, it's hard to see why you are persisting really.

 

[hilary]

As I said, you are not breaking any rules.

You said yourself that you are not interested in the topic of this thread and will not be doing any work on it.

Tacrab, I'm sorry, your thread seems to be derailed. I'm going to close it, at least for now. Do feel free to start another one, or pm to ask me to re-open this one, whenever you want to continue. I really appreciate the pdf, and your willingness to do some 'digging' in search of patterns - thank you .

 

[hilary]

OK - Zagua-related conversation can continue!

 

[hilary]

A note from Lynn's translation:

'Hexagram 43 consists of one yin line in the top position. The hexagram, as such, signifies the yang principle gathering strength and omving upward, forcing out the yin principle. Note also that when this progress of the yang principle is complete and all lines are yang, the resulting hexagram is Qian (Pure Yang), Hexagram 1, and we are back at the beginning of the cycle of sixty-four hexagrams. This surely is the reason why Kuai is placed here at the end of the Hexagrams in Irregular Order.'

That sounds reasonable as far as it goes. I went looking, optimistically, but don't see any regularity in the arrangement of the other cyclic hexagram. They're out of sequence - 1/2, 19/20, 23/24, 12/11, 34/33, 44/43 - and irregularly spaced.

 

[tacrab]

First, a big thank you to Hilary for having created a forum in which ideas, often still in development, can be discussed; thank you also for your patience with all of us participants!

That said, what I'm wondering about the Zagua, is where it's from, what context, what it represents. As Bent Nielsen's wonderful A Companion to Yi Jing Numerology and Cosmology demonstrates, there are numerous "lost" Yijing traditions. In view of that, I take the Zagua to be a remnant of someone's teachings.

By examining the Zagua order, we can maybe get a glimpse of whatever those teachings might have been, just as we can know something about Shao Yong through his Fuxi charts.

 

[charly]

OK - Zagua-related conversation can continue!

Thanks Hilary:

I had few time for scrolling up all the thread but I got the impression that the "Za Gua" passed unnoticed for most people, maybe the most unnoticed of all the Wings.

Although rhymed, I trust Rutt, it looks quite irregular, it lacks of the fixed structure of cultured poetry.

I believe that the author necessarily knew the wings that were already incorporated to the Yijing. In the "Za Gua", hexagrams were defined with simple concepts drawn from different parts of the preceding texts and using mainly few words.

Hexagrams, so characterized, were grouped into contrasting pairs with little regard to the sequence order of the received text. The 10th wing begins with the opposition Qian/Strong vs. Kun/Weak and ends with allusions to the different fates associated with higher or lower social hyerarchiy.

Everything makes me believe that the author, more than the accurate description of complex themes or the quality of the poetic or philosophical expression, appreciated the conceptual simplicity and ease of memorization associated with quick rhyme and dramatic contrasts.

If not illeterate, more a practitioner than a sage.

Meanwhile I look for some text to quote, I post "The Hexagrams in Mixed Order" translated by the late Dr. Wu Jing-Nuan:

​

Wu Jing-Nuan: "Yi Jing", The Taoist Center - Washington DC, 1991.
Numbers for some hexagrams were dropped by Dr.Wu for disambiguation purpose.

All the best,

Charly

 

[tacrab]

Thanks, Charly, for mentioning topic of what the Zagua author knew...obviously knew the Zhouyi, and as you point out, probably also knew the earliest Wings.

 

[hilary]

more a practitioner than a sage

Probably this is why I've always liked the Zagua (and Xugua) so much!

 

[hilary]

By the way, that must be a typo in Wu Jing Nuan: Tun (Hexagram 3) does not leave its place.

 

[waveCT]

As I posted a little while back, in June, "Wei Tat's guiding light?", Wei Tat was a practitioner for whom the Zagua was key, whether interpreting by correspondenceor by analogy: not an approach Rutt would have agreed with. One can download a pdf of Wei Tat's Exposition at S J Marshall's site.

 

[charly]

Thanks, Charly, for mentioning topic of what the Zagua author knew...obviously knew the Zhouyi, and as you point out, probably also knew the earliest Wings.

Hi Barbara:

I did never pay much attention to the Zagua but always had the impression of something written in a hurry but with the clear intention to define each hexagram with a unique proposition the more simple and contrasting as possible. I didn't like it too much. In general I prefer gradients and story diversity but I understand that each structure or form has its function.

Zagua's main function is, I believe, to get easy memorization and quick access to conflict-free, undestandable meaning for each hexagram. It was a requirement to get a foot for almost free improvisation without needing written support nor knowing accurate sequences. That's why I believe the author was more an action oriented practitioner that an intellectual although, of course, not illiterate.

Those interested in the problem of oral learning and transmission of ancient classics would do well in reading the third chapter of your book "Taijiquan Classics" (1).

Don't you believe so?

All the best,

Charly.

_______________________
(1) "Taijiquan Classics" An annotated translation by Barbara Davis. North Atlantic Books, Berkeley - California, 2004.
Ch. 3: The Language and Literature of the Taijiquan Classics.

The book is available in Google Books as a free preview. With a little of luck will can read the full chapter.

Ch.

 

[tacrab]

Thanks, Charly, for the book mention. My experiences of studying the Taijiquan classics really gave me a lot of insight into Chinese literature in general. For one thing, how it's all a web of knowledge. Everything is connected to everything else.
Rutt's Zhouyi and Shaughnessy's books are best sources for transmission of Yi, and there are a number of books out on Chinese classics and books and printing in general. It's a quite fascinating field, and like anything to do with Chinese history, will lead you into years more reading.... history, textual transmission, printing, publishing, patronage, woodblock, moveable type, paper, bookbinding, typography, typos, etc. (The Cherniack article has a great long list of possible printing errors.) Here are a few good sources:

Rutt: Zhouyi
Shaughnessy: Before Confucius : studies in the creation of the Chinese classics,
Shaughnessy: Unearthing the Changes, (most up-to-date)
Loewe: Early Chinese texts : a bibliographical guide, somewhat outdated
Indiana Companion to Traditional Chinese Literature, a huge encyclopedia of authors, history, topical essays, genres, etc.
The history of Chinese printing : (illustrated) by Xiumin Zhang; Qi Han; Jiehua Chen
Printing and book culture in late imperial China by: Cynthia J Brokaw; Kai-wing Chow
Science and civilisation in China. / Vol. 5, Chemistry and chemical technology. Part 1. Paper and printing / by Joseph Needham (this series is up to 27 volumes!)
Book culture and textual transmission in Sung China by Susan Cherniack

By the way, The Taijiquan Classics is still in print and available through your favorite bookstore or library... we authors appreciate readers' support for these labors of love!

 

[charly]

Thanks, Charly, for the book mention. My experiences of studying the Taijiquan classics really gave me a lot of insight into Chinese literature in general. For one thing, how it's all a web of knowledge. Everything is connected to everything else.

Rutt's Zhouyi and Shaughnessy's books are best sources for transmission of Yi, and there are a number of books out on Chinese classics and books and printing in general. It's a quite fascinating field, and like anything to do with Chinese history, will lead you into years more reading.... history, textual transmission, printing, publishing, patronage, woodblock, moveable type, paper, bookbinding, typography, typos, etc. (The Cherniack article has a great long list of possible printing errors.) Here are a few good sources:

Rutt: Zhouyi
Shaughnessy: Before Confucius : studies in the creation of the Chinese classics,
Shaughnessy: Unearthing the Changes, (most up-to-date)
Loewe: Early Chinese texts : a bibliographical guide, somewhat outdated
Indiana Companion to Traditional Chinese Literature, a huge encyclopedia of authors, history, topical essays, genres, etc.
The history of Chinese printing : (illustrated) by Xiumin Zhang; Qi Han; Jiehua Chen
Printing and book culture in late imperial China by: Cynthia J Brokaw; Kai-wing Chow
Science and civilisation in China. / Vol. 5, Chemistry and chemical technology. Part 1. Paper and printing / by Joseph Needham (this series is up to 27 volumes!)
Book culture and textual transmission in Sung China by Susan Cherniack

Very good references, I can gather that you are passionate about all these issues and their connections.

Speaking of translation, this year there was an event whose advertising was very interesting to me, but as although I manage to read and write in English, I am absolutely unable to understand spoken, I could not participate. Maybe you did it or maybe you are still on time.

I think it can be stimulating, there are available recordings of the lectures and talkings.

Translating the Future: “Untranslating the Classics,” with Laurie Patton, Gopal Sukhu & Vivek Narayanan

Free and open to the public, our programs inspire sustained, engaged conversation and forge an open and diverse intellectual community.

I only know Gopal Sukhu for "The Songs of Chu" his new translation of the Chu Ci (the former David Hawkes "The songs of the South")

By the way, The Taijiquan Classics is still in print and available through your favorite bookstore or library... we authors appreciate readers' support for these labors of love!

I have read only the third chapter but it seems to me absolutely essential to conjecture about a text that lacks practically of known history as the Zagua.

If you allow it, I could post it here for the benefit of those interested in working on the Zagua. I'm aware of the rights and needs of authors. But I believe that the well-deserved diffussion is also a labor of love.

When I was younger, working and earning money I bought more books than I could now read even living many years. Although now I would like to continue buying them, books have become unaffordable for almost everyone, even more for retired people with little generous pensions.

All the best,

Charly
_____________________________________
P.D.:

I was rereading and analizing the Zagua in Rutt's version. About sequence and structure I've seen that it owes a lot to the traditional sequence mainly in the paired sequence of hexagrams.​

• In the Zagua 56 hexgrams are paired the same that in the received text although the pairs are randomly mixed.
  • 34 out of these 56 hexagrams conserve the inner growing order of the hexagrams: first the odd, second the even, like in in Qian (1) - Kun (2).
  • The remainder 22 go in reverse order, decreasing like Bi (8) - Shi (7).

Say the majority of hexagrams are still married like in the traditional sequence.​

• Only 8 hexagrams have divorced,
  • 6 have swapped partners, Gou (44) - Jian (53), Yi (27) - Jiji (63), Guimei (54) - Weiji (64)
  • 2 remain singles. Daguo (28) at the begining and Guai (43) at the end of the group.

All this outstanding group goes at the end of the list, a tailor's drawer. Maybe these 8 hexagrams were troublesome for the author's ideology.​

Ch.​

​

​

 

[tacrab]

Thanks, Charly for your suggestions. You're correct that permissions are needed to republish (even online) amounts exceeding "fair use" (i.e. brief quotes and such). While books might be "labors of love" authors and publishers still need to make livings!

In lieu of posting the chapter, Below is a summary of it, main points relevant to Zagua, literacy, oral literature, and book production. As posted previously, there are many great resources about Chinese book traditions.

Chapter Three "The Language and Literature of the Taijiquan Classics"
From The Taijiquan Classics: An Annotated Translation by Barbara Davis (North Atlantic Books/Blue Snake, 2004).

China has a 3000-year-old literary tradition. Literacy until the 20th century was maybe as low as 10-20% (there may be updated stats available, someone can correct me). Full literacy was, as in so many cultures, confined to an educated elite.
Education was grounded in the Confucian classics, which emphasized morality, philosophy, poetry, history. Memorization of texts was a key part of early training. Quoting the classics (such as the I Ching or the Analects) was something every literate person did (remember that it was almost exclusively boys/men who got formal education), much as in the West people quote the Bible or Shakespeare. So the writing that these people did used many allusions and quotes, and literary devices.
Oral literature was an important way to transmit information, especially among the non-literate. This often took the form of ditties--easy to learn poems. Ditties could be a rhyming chant for memorizing martial arts moves and applications, or acupuncture point locations and functions, or for the I Ching hexagram order, etc.
Many typos appear in Chinese books, as there are so many like-sounding characters. This means that there are many varient texts. Books were carved into wood printing blocks. A slip of the knife meant a mistake could creep into text.
The Taijiquan Classics are a group of five texts (depending on edition) that date back to mid-1800s. They are varied in writing style and content. Some are lofty philosophical essays, some quote the Confucian classics, some are rhyming ditties that catalogue taiji moves.