The Bible and Yi

[Sparhawk]

Solun, where do you think the Yi's answers come from?

Hmmm, are you the one that posted the same question in Twitter yesterday with a link to an interactive blog?

 

[chacha1]

Nope. I don't do twitter, facebook, my space, etc,etc,. I actually think the internet is big brother, and this is the first time I ventured to participate in any forum anywhere. For the love of the Yi.

 

[Sparhawk]

Nope. I don't do twitter, facebook, my space, etc,etc,. I actually think the internet is big brother, and this is the first time I ventured to participate in any forum anywhere. For the love of the Yi.

Ah..., although, perhaps you missed the point that the biggest brother of them all IS the Yijing...

 

[chacha1]

*whispers* It's watching...

 

[solun]

Hi chacha1,

IN response to your question 'Where do I think the Yi Ching answers come from ...(?)'

I think they come from us, as individuals inwardly on one level.
The Yi Ching is a phenomenon created by what is higher in human experience, that which desires to improve or refine life and it's issues, both historically and on a personal basis.

It is in a sense a tool, or device which can be used to regain an orderly footing in our spiritual life.

That's basically how I see it.
I don't see any apparitions behind it; daemon to an extent, yes,but again, that is present in the work itself as a creative artifact and in the individual.

I think it's best answers come from our desire to see, or understand.

solun

 

[chacha1]

Uh oh...

Hi Solun...I'm uncomfortable because the word " daemon" to me has such a negative connotation( evil). Whether it is the wicked outside or within us, I don't want to harness it. I'm sorry that this is drifting so far from the original thread( I probably should have started a new one), but... what else can daemon mean besides demonic? ( Now, I'm scared!)

 

[meng]

Hi Solun...I'm uncomfortable because the word " daemon" to me has such a negative connotation( evil). Whether it is the wicked outside or within us, I don't want to harness it. I'm sorry that this is drifting so far from the original thread( I probably should have started a new one), but... what else can daemon mean besides demonic? ( Now, I'm scared!)

Daemon is more of a psychological component of our own human nature, in contrast to demon, which is generally thought of as an evil spirit being outside ourselves, but which can come inside and possess us. A daemon doesn't have to gain entry, it's already there. Figuratively.

 

[my_key]

Cha Cha 1

Daemons figure highly in the 'Northern Lights' trilogy, if you'd like to see them in action.

 

[chacha1]

Oh,ok. I wasn't familar with "daemon" in the sense of being an internal, but separate consciousness. That's interesting.

 

[solun]

Well,
to be sure, good explanations and comments on the term 'daemon/daimon'.
And I am using it in the psychological sense. I'm using it in the sense that it is a sort of collective ill that we inherit from our ancestral/family/DNA human fatalistic - whatever you want to call it place. And it is out of this place of imbalance that we turn to, potentially, a light giving or amending spirit.
To tell you the truth, when I ask the I ching something, I pray first, that God in goodness and mercy will show me what I need to see.
I could have explained myself more clearly without having to bring in this stuff. I think I complicated my answer unnecessarily. Sorry for that.
Didn't mean to scare anyone by using that word. I just mean to say that when I ask the I ching something, I think the answers come from myself and my belief in something greater than myself, something sacred and pure as guiding me. For me, that is what I have come to know as God in my life experience, which began in Christianity. And while God is certainly there, God is everywhere too.

As for the I Ching, I think it is an abstract collection of symbols for process in nature. Commentary exists to accompany and illuminate those ideas potentially. The I Ching is human with the best of human intention behind it. It seems a little to well crafted as a set of symbols to be natural, which is a contradiction in a sense, because life is eccentric as creation is eccentric. And while yes, there are laws and so forth, we will never understand them all. We are only abstractions of the divine, our consciousness is limited. God, wisdom are infinite and yet can still pertain to us. Sages and wisemen have helped us with this and that is why we have sacred scripture in many forms in the world. It seems we humans have access to placing one foot in the next world. It can be overwhelming, to consider, but then we are compelled by many reasons.

It isn't that I don't have reverence for the I Ching on it's own, as an amazing phenomenon, an oracle ... I certainly do.

So, you can leave the word daemon out. I had been reading something about fate and transformation and it was a concept that kept showing up and sprung to mind probably because I have been seeing it lately. I apologize for my carelessness.

Cheerio, solun!

 

[meng]

But I like the word. Even so far as to say God is my daemon.

I admire your boldness to say things you believe, as well as think and intuit. In a world of critics, of which yijingers have our share, it take guts to say what you believe.

I have beliefs too, but they're not solid anymore. My beliefs are now more conceptual, and concepts are subject to change: morphing, transmuting, dying, resurrecting.

(speaking for me as 'you')
It is a challenge to believe what you don't believe, but that you need to believe in order to activate the forces to move you and what you're believing for toward one another. That is magic and science, both. So I don't believe what I believe, though I believe so as to release those potentials to receiving what I'm believing for.

 

[chacha1]

Hi solun, when I said I was scared it was just a little joke( but ignorance can breed fear), and I'm very grateful that you brought the concept of daemon into the conversation. I knew nothing of daemon as a dimension of one's mind, or even as a separate but united, beneficial part of an individual. Also, I never thought of praying before I consulted the Yi, because I grew up in a very traditional Christian home where anything other than the Bible was considered suspect. Your post was not at all confusing, it was extremely enlightening, and it gave me extreme comfort in consulting the Yi and receiving the answers that I do. You shed a whole new light on this process for me. I was always concerned about how what seems like an inanimate object could know life, but sometimes when I consult I have to focus on the question for a while before I feel comfortable casting. I repeat the question until the right time, when my mind is in a certain place that I can't describe...but at that point, that's when I know it's the right time to cast my coins.I suppose that is my daemon that is ready to communicate with the Yi. For a long time I have been in the process of outgrowing stagnant, static, ideas about what life consists of and it is very overwhelming, so I thank you for bridging the gap between what I have been taught, and a practice that is essential in my life.

 

[pantherpanther]

meng wrote: Daemon is more of a psychological component of our own human nature, in contrast to demon, which is generally thought of as an evil spirit being outside ourselves, but which can come inside and possess us. A daemon doesn't have to gain entry, it's already there. Figuratively.

The human being receives two energies as "helpers" or "support" from nature or God: "desire" and "anger" as Evagrius and the Desert Fathers describe them. They are pictured as the sheep and the wolf, "fellow workers." Both are equally necessary to us. The early tradition of "spiritual warfare" that the Orthodox elders and monks still teach.

 

[solun]

Along theses lines, any practice or belief will go through processes of growth and change. Even as a 'faith' or 'knowledge' is tested, in order to grow, we have to be able to change a little at least.

I think it's wise to be cautious and trust your instincts in all matters spiritual, and other. If you are uncomfortable with something, that's fine too. We should respect our limits. And if and when ready, we can then go beyond them or not. But there' are a lot of control issues, sadly, which accompanied the presentation of the 'Christian' legacy to the world by the powers that were, and still are.

Please don't mistake what I am saying as promoting a general rebellious attitude, but more stating that it's important to be educated and understand as fully as you can what you say or think you believe, and not to trust absolutely everything to one person or institution. It's a big universe, there's a lot in it. The least we can do is be as honest as possible in our relationship with what we call or know as god I think. If God were worth knowing, God would definitely respect that. In fact, from what I have heard and know of God, God insists on it. A genuine and honest communion. How can we offer a fearful lie to God in place of a real relationship? This would be tragic.

Christ questioned leaders in the religious community of his day. They were clearly corrupt, many of them. But I see many people who are leaders and teachers today in the Christian world of faith that are true teachers and are very spiritual people. They aren't perfect, but they also understand this.

I think, in short chacha1, that if something resonates with the wisdom we know and understand in our faith, then it's not off.

But I would like to add lastly that notion in Christianity, chacha1, of God (Christ/Salvation/Redeemer) as the author and finsher of our faith as is stated in sciptures. This is the place of devotion and surrender to a personal agent of transformation, who is Jesus Christ to Christians. And to know this 'person' of Christ is to understand what that is and that understanding trasnforms and redeems the faithful. The only way you can know this 'person' of the redeemer is to believe in it.
This is like meng's description of his/her (don't know meng that well, sorry meng) transmutation through belief, albeit in a different mode, one of a more scientific and magical bent by meng's own admission. Which is not to say ultimately that there is no relation between it and the Christian methodology, if you will.

Within the wisdom of the I Ching, there are sages and wisemen who advise, and their wisdom is not inconsistent with teachings that are essentailly Christian. I think wisdom is wisdom and resonates with truth. It doesn't have a designer label attached to it. It's harder to come by.

 

[solun]

panther, interesting! This sheep and the wolf remind me of the trickster god or daemon in astrology and folklore.

 

[solun]

So I don't believe what I believe, though I believe so as to release those potentials to receiving what I'm believing for.

- meng

This is basically a definition of faith, in the abstract sense, and in an NT scriptural sense.

Hebrews 11:1,2
1"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for , the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it, the elders obtained a good report."
verse 2 in the amplified NT says ' men of old had divine testimony borne to them by faith'.

 

[chacha1]

I think my main problem has been that I come from a background that is not very open minded to universal principles, however I feel that there is more to life than what I was taught. I come from a place where the pastors use fear to keep people in line, and any thought outside of what they teach is considered "of the devil". I know of a minister that preaches optimism and acceptance and other ministers that criticize him because they say he is "whitewashing" the word of God, because God is not as understanding, and lienient as this minister teaches him to be. I believe that the universe is a more complicated place than we could ever understand, and certain priests have their motives for saying the things that they do- some examples - control, fear & money.

 

[solun]

Well, true, this is true in any thing in life. Any faith or anything! That there is greed and the use of fear to control. It can be a form of psychological terrorism.

BUT, there is the reality of those who want to protect their fellows from harm, and I respect that. There can be a lot of watering down. There is a scripture in the NT that says beware of getting caught up in every wind of doctrine. Universal principles which are positive are consistent with what Christianity teaches as the fruit of the spirit, some referred to as ... Love, faith, hope, long-suffering, meekness, gentleness, goodness, temperance, kindness... I mean, God is universal.
I personally don't believe the notion that, 'hey man, cool, anything goes', because eventually that takes us down the road to affirming pedophilia or the like, because they were just getting their freak on ... you know what I am saying? That's not what I am about. I think people need compassion and understanding, but not necessarily approval all the time. Everyone has limits, I know mine.

As with the I ching, there are probably a lot of versions that people would take exception to. I respect Bradford and others who are more educated or studied in it, they are concerned with the integrity of it, and refute notions that are for them too watered down or maybe not well articulated enough.

 

[chacha1]

*Laughing* I get it, no vomitoriums. I agree, and that is why I continued to consult the Yi throughout the years. It speaks of one's self maintaining basic Christian, (or many other religions) (civilized?) principles, and not only in behavior but in the regulation of the mind. I am only in my thirties so I also respect those who have been studying the Yi for the length of my lifetime.In the words of I think it was Confucius, that said he would like to give another 50 years of his life to the study of it. When I first started using the oracle I was in my early 20's, and we all know that things take on different meanings as we learn more about life and get older.

 

[chacha1]

P.S.

Still laughing(not at pedophilia, but the "anything goes" mindset ) at " just getting their freak on". Where have you been hiding? You're a jewel.

 

[meng]

getting the freak on, lol

I hear what you're saying, Solin. There needs to be a core of what is and is not acceptable, whether that is by grand design or just a matter of our own construct. But it does get very dicey when we construct a grand design, because invariably it will oppose another construct of the grand design. Then we have radical opposition. So I think it's better to take responsibility for it being our own construct, and then live accordingly.

 

[pantherpanther]

"To one, indeed, is given the word of wisdom; and to another, the word of knowledge; to another, faith, to another, prophecy, to another, the grace of healing, and so on.(I Cor. XII) He who receives any of these gifts does not possess it for his own sake but rather for the sake of others, so that, in the life passed in community, the operation of the Holy Spirit in the individual is at the same time necessarily transmitted to all.
He who lives alone, consequently, and has, perhaps, one gift renders it ineffectual by leaving it in disuse, since it lies buried within him. How much danger there is in this all of you know who have read the Gospel. On the other hand, in the case of several persons living together, each enjoys his own gift and enhances it by giving others a share, besides reaping benefit from the gifts of others as if they were his own. "
- BASIL the GREAT (ca.330-379) on COMMUNITY and SOLITUDE
____________________________________________________________________________________
1 Corinthians 12:8-10 (King James VersionI
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

 

[chacha1]

Pantherpanther, those verses actually speak to the blessing I received when I stumbled upon this site. There is alot of amazing information shared, from many talented minds. Before this, I never knew so many modern day people actually still studied, and used the I Ching, or even incorportated its use with Christian beliefs.

 

[meng]

Since we're touching on the gifts of the spirit, I'll include this little reminder from 1Cr 14:32:

"And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." Which means it is our own conscious mind which must assume responsibility for use of the gifts.

edit:

So, how is it that things just seem to happen to and around us, such as the virtual western theme mandala? Maybe I chose the wrong words with "conscious mind", and should say "consciousness", because consciousness includes all layers of the prophet, so that the whole onion is responsible.

 

[maremaria]

Panther's and Meng's posts bring in mind hex 14 (at least as far as i can understand it till now)

Interesting thread !!!

 

[meng]

Panther's and Meng's posts bring in mind hex 14 (at least as far as i can understand it till now)

Yes, I can see the connection easily. In fact, that's a very astute call, because Pentecost (manifestation of spirit and its gifts) was as fire from heaven, and 14 is also fire over heaven. :bows:

 

[meng]

Yes, I can see the connection easily. In fact, that's a very astute call, because Pentecost (manifestation of spirit and its gifts) was as fire from heaven, and 14 is also fire over heaven. :bows:

"was as fire from heaven" should read overflowing from heaven.

 

[pantherpanther]

Since we're touching on the gifts of the spirit, I'll include this little reminder from 1Cr 14:32:

"And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." Which means it is our own conscious mind which must assume responsibility for use of the gifts.

edit:

So, how is it that things just seem to happen to and around us, such as the virtual western theme mandala? Maybe I chose the wrong words with "conscious mind", and should say "consciousness", because consciousness includes all layers of the prophet, so that the whole onion is responsible.

meng,
We experience many states of consciousness during a single day, don't we? How often are we self-aware? In our usual waking state, there is "no one there." In the language of the Tibetans, we seem like "ghosts" not real human beings,

The prophets were considered to have superconscious experience, but each in their own way:
A BROTHER inquired of an old man, asking: “What thing is good enough that I should do it and live by it?” And the old man said: “God alone knows what is good. But I have heard that one of the fathers asked the great Abba Nesteros, who was a friend of Abba Antony, and said to him, ‘What good work should I do?’

And he answered him, ‘Works are not all equivalent Scripture says , Abraham showed hospitality and God was with him. And Elijah loved quiet, and God was with him. And David was humble and God was with him. Therefore whatever you see accords with God’s will and that you will, do it, and keep watch over your heart.’
- EVAGRIUS PONTICUS (345-399)

 

[lloyd]

The Unknown takes on many forms. But if today these many forms and their practices are all available in print and on the net - from Eskimo runes to Tibetan Lamas, Christians, Zen Masters, Sufism, Australian aboriginals, etc. - then where do I begin to add it all up?
Somehow I feel that your gathering of disciplines could only be encyclopedic ...

 

[meng]

Yeah, God's will is a super-can-o-worms. Everyone I know who believes they know and follow God's will is at war with someone who knows differently.

Panther, you probably know this already but for sake of discourse, new testament prophesy (grace doctrine) was the context of the 1Cr quote, not old testament prophets. The distinction is significant, as the OT emphasis is on the prophet and prophecy, while the NT emphasis is on the gift and manifestation of the holy spirit. The messages are considered transient and secondary, compared with OT prophecies, which are generally thought of as being literal and written in stone.