The element of time in the I Ching

[falcott]

Hi all, this is my first post here. I'm not new to the I Ching, however. Without counting, I have about 2 dozen books about the I Ching on my shelves.

I'm wondering if anyone knows where I can find more information (books, articles, PDFs etc in English) about working with the element of time when using the I Ching as an oracle. (As in asking: "What is the best time to...")

I'm sure that Chinese scholars and sages have given some thought to this principle during the past 3000 years.

Thank you.

 

[svenrus]

Hello Falcot,

The closest I've come to determine time I had found in Alfred Huangs I Ching book. To each hexagram he points out a month. I have listed it in the illustration below. It's in danish but follow this:
The Left red column is the chinese month ie. First (Første), second... to the Twelfth month.
The Center blue column is the hexagrams for those months
The Right green column is our names for those months starting here with February. Then march, april and so on until lowest here: January (Januar).
Unfortunately A. Huang haven't specified from where he got the material which proved this to be the case, I mean: no sourcematerial.



Furthermore, the closest You can determine in which time such and such will occure will be in whole months.
To example: When will I be able to start again on my job ? hex. 7.1.6 Answer: In May (Year ???)
I actually had asked this question as I'm unable for an unknown while to turn back to my occupation, but hex. 7 didn't told me anything about my question. It'll show up when I'm ready to start on job again and if it'll be in may this year... Or next, or the month of may in ten, twenty... Years ++?

 

[pocossin]

This is an interesting hexagram calendar. I suspect it is a highly garbled (that is, Daoist) version of the Blofeld calendar. At least, the hexagram of the months (in dark blue in the center column) are the same as in Blofeld. There is a discussion of the Blofeld calendar here:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?1562-Hexagram-8-Changing-Lines-and-the-Months

To the best of my memory, ex-member Willowfox is the only one who used this calendar much.

 

[svenrus]

Thank You Pocossin,
I remember it but have forgotten it when answerring Falcott. Blofeld's arrangement differs from A. Huangs a lot. I read that Blofeld got it from, quote:
".... This table and means of reckoning is based upon an elaborate circular diagram attributed to the legendary Emperor Fu Hsi.... " (John Blofeld, The book of change, appendix 12)
Blofeld also points out: "... it will be seen that each hexagram governs six particular days. Furthermore, each line of that hexagram will be found to govern one of those six days. Thus a moving line four in Hexagram 5 would indicate the tenth day of the First Month; a moving line six in Hexagram 53 would indicate the last day of the Twelfth Month an so on....." which increase the accuracy of prediction.

 

[falcott]

Thank you so much Svenrus and Pocossin. You have proven that there is no such thing as a stupid question, only a slow researcher

When I posted my question, I had (and still have) on my table both the Blofeld and Huang books, together with Legge's.

Thus far I have spent only about 2 minutes comparing Huang's and Blofeld's calendar arrangements, and my initial feeling is that Blofeld's is more accurate.

I'm sure that there must be a lot of related information available directly from Chinese texts. However a lot of non-chinese research seems to concentrate on the I Ching itself, especially concerning divination, rather than works *about* the I Ching.

I'd like to consider this conversation still open rather than settled, if anyone has further insights.

Thanks :bows:

 

[pocossin]

Right, it's more Daoist garbling. I have gone through several hexagram calendars, and all were garbled versions of the one original hexagram calendar. In the Blofeld calendar, note this sequence of numbers in the second column:

5 16 56 14 50 32 57 54 52 64 3 62

Then, beginning with 5 in the second row of Huang's calendar, note how each of these numbers occurs in descending rows. 62 is in the first row. This can't be chance. Huang needn't bother to say where he got it from. We can figure it out

 

[stevef]

Hi there

I have been searching on and off for some time now for this legendary map of Fu Shi, but have not come across it- if anyone has, I’d like to see it.
I have had the notion that if a hexagram is apparent at a particular time then, in a general way, the psychological and spiritual force of a hexagram is apparent as well. So, for example, at the beginning of the New Year, hexagram 11 is having an influence- more or less stable; but in high summer we have the opposite: summer madness, hexagrams 44, 33 and 12. As a consequence I have written about the I Ching (poetically) at the time when a particular hexagram is meant to be influencing affairs. (I posted a couple of the Beggar Poet’s poems with this in mind, but they were underdone. I have another full set written in Blofeld’s order which I’d like to post sometime. The intention is to give an intuitive sense of the month of how it is experienced internally and externally in a flow rather than in specific, divined instances.) We do tend to create our own worlds to some extent, and read things into a map of existence which others don’t see, but I have found this a pretty effective method of making sense of what otherwise would have been arbitrarily perceived occurrences. In the Southern Hemisphere, where I live, we have just started hexagram 57, a remarkably gentler period than last week, hexagram 12; but are the arguments with family feigned and forced because you expect them to happen; does it diminish free will; is the original map merely an arbitrary designation?
I think one has to take an Indian philosophers line. Try it. If it works for you, then great. It not…

 

[bradford]

Most scholars and sages have gone WAY overboard here and constructed virtual realities out of invented structures and utterly lost the reality that their diagrams are supposed to map. For me this includes just about all of the almanacs and calendars. Given a sufficient knack for pareidolia, however, one can make even these look meaningful. I just stick with whatever time references the Yi gives me in so many words. If I ask the Yi to quantify a time and it gives me no numbers, I just read this as advice to tend to the conditions described first.

 

[pocossin]

I have been searching on and off for some time now for this legendary map of Fu Shi, but have not come across it- if anyone has, I’d like to see it.

I think you are looking for the Hetu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_River_Map

 

[stevef]

Thank you Pocossin

I'll have a good look at it

Steve

 

[falcott]

Steve, are you looking for Fu Hsi's circular diagram, as mentioned by Blofeld (quoted above)? I believe that this is it:

http://baharna.com/iching/images/Plate2_Fig1_Hexagrams_FuHsi.gif

 

[stevef]

It is a question, though, whether the patterns are random or, like the seasons, follow pre-established patterns, but have immense capacity for variation. One doesn't usually expect it to snow in the height of summer (at least here in Tasmania). An interesting book, entitled "Tai Chi Chuan and I Ching" Da Liu, mapped the circulation of the Chi within the body, but reflecting outer conditions. The increase up the back in alignment with increasing Yang. For example, Return 24 at the base of the spine, December up to the back of the head, the Creative 1 in spring. Interestingly, a book by Rowena Pattee depicted this flow as the opposite for a woman- the receptive being in the head. I don't think this pattern is entirely arbitrary, and it does follow the pattern of the cosmos. If one would like to get esoteric- the breathing out of the earth into the cosmos in summer, and the contraction into the earth in winter; the increase of yang and contraction of yang, and vice versa with yin. This sets a template of invariable consistency- the twelve basic hexagrams which follow the course of the year.
That the remaining hexagrams should somehow fit in the same unwavering consistency is for me what is in question. However, some do make sense for the time in which they are placed. If we take ascending and descending as our point of departure, then it makes sense to place, for example, 61 and 62 and 36 in the winter and autumn, and 50 and 55 (full of light) in summer, ascending.
My opinion is that it makes perfect sense to give each time of the year a general psychological meaning (but what if I live at the equator???) even if the sensitive alignment is intuitive and not obviously measurable. Rudolf Steiner, the Austrian philosopher/mystic, did something similar with his calendar of the soul. Many people (anthroposophists) live their lives by his method and find it very effective in making sense of the yearly cycle- how closely it corresponds with the Fu Shi caliendar would be a worthwhile study (at least, for people like myself if they had the will).
If patterns are too random then any question to the I Ching could be subverted immediately by rise of a spontaneously occurring new condition- the constancy required to hold a question to its future answer fractured. We require constancy and circularity of change- a pattern of consistency between now and what will happen to give credence to the answers we hope for in divination.

All the best
Steve

 

[stevef]

Hi Falcott

Thanks for kindly sending me a link for the diagram. However, I don't think it's the one I'm after. If you see my last remarks it is the seasonal concurrences that I am after.

With regards

Steve

 

[svenrus]

Right, it's more Daoist garbling. I have gone through several hexagram calendars, and all were garbled versions of the one original hexagram calendar. In the Blofeld calendar, note this sequence of numbers in the second column:

5 16 56 14 50 32 57 54 52 64 3 62

Then, beginning with 5 in the second row of Huang's calendar, note how each of these numbers occurs in descending rows. 62 is in the first row. This can't be chance. Huang needn't bother to say where he got it from. We can figure it out

This scheme in #2 I posted, I took from Alfred Huang's The complete I Ching, isn't necessarily the correct order, as I looked it up page by page and filled into the above mentioned scheme.

 

[svenrus]

Note on #2 in this thread: I've written that the first chinese month referr to february. That's not quit right as the chinese month starts with the New Moon and end next month the midnight before the next New Moon which makes the chinese month a bit differ from our system....

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar

Concerning John Blofeld and the hexagramcalendar based upon Fu Hsi circular arrangement I've tried setting it up for a diagram: p. 1 in the link.

And: finding the aproximate date out of a given hexagram: p. 2 in the link.

http://svenrus.dk/hexagramfuhsiarrangement.pdf

On page 4 in this pdf-document I have tried making a more logical scheme in comparision with this diagram: http://www.yijing.co.uk/writing/notes/calendar.pdf (Fit's better with "Western logic", doesn't it ?)

I must confess that I don't no how to understand the four hexagrams ie 52, 30, 58 and 29 wich, in p.2, fell out of the scheme, numbered with the small ciffer 6. As Blofeld stated it: in each month there are five hexagrams and each of those spends over six days and if a changing line occurr in a hexagram that line can determine the exact day in a month. But four hexagrams are placed outside that system so: where do they belong in the month ???

 

[falcott]

In this thread http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?120-Fu-Hsi's-Calendar there is a link to a circular Fu Hsi diagram that has been copied from 2 Chinese sources. The sequence is identical to Blofeld's with the following exceptions: 45 and 49 have been transposed, and 52 is used where Blofeld has 51. I haven't yet given more attention to it. The division of the Earthly Branches appear to be very different to Blofeld's.

Sven, with regards to Legge's Fu Hsi sequence that you have used, is there a pattern that can be discerned, from which we get the seasonal/monthly sequence? If there is, I cannot see it at the moment.

And when comparing these sequences, does this mean that there are several "Fu Hsi" diagrams/sequences?

 

[pocossin]

Legge's Fu Hsi sequence that you have used, is there a pattern that can be discerned

Yes, it's binary. The pattern is discussed here.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?19646-Binary

Nowadays this circle and square arrangement is ascribed to Shao Yong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shao_Yong

 

[falcott]

Thanks Pocossin. So looking at the hexagrams from a binary perspective, do we get Blofeld's calendar sequence? Or how does one arrive at Blofeld's sequence?

 

[pocossin]

So looking at the hexagrams from a binary perspective, do we get Blofeld's calendar sequence?

No, I have found no connection.

Or how does one arrive at Blofeld's sequence?

The hexagram calendar that Blofeld gave is a unique object, and I have not been able to explain it. I think it may be older than the Yijing. The pattern of the first column (months) and last column (seasons) is obvious. From study of the first line of hexagrams, I believe that hexagram pictures (that is, the disesteemed pareidolia) explain it, but until someone does the work, the problem is unsolved.

 

[falcott]

Thanks Pocossin, much appreciated.

 

[stevef]

I tend to think that the order isn't merely random but is based on an intuitive awareness of a soul adventure consistent with the cycle of the year; that is, with an ascent and descent, a breathing out and a breathing in, and expansion toward the light (summer) and contraction into the darkness (winter).
Here is a very rough sketch how I approach the order.
For example, months 11 and 12
24- return of chi- the awakening of light in the spine (a man)
3- difficulty at the beginning- quite simply we are not at the end yet; pointless to put 63 here
15- making the first appropriate (right minded steps) in humility
38- meeting (necessarily- as a condition of our existence) obstructions as we set out
46- nevertheless, but starting to ascend
19- continuing to ascend (spiralling and approaching, but what?) with a warning that ascension must expect its end- a cosmic law
62- the full blown advance, for example, at the expense of others- of their feelings, must be tempered- take stock of why you are on this journey
4- find the notion of why one is here, what your purposes are. What you are here for is in question, not just a blind continuity, a youthful exclamation of self-assertion
42- increasing with the notion that what we are here for is to serve- give something back to the world, not merely advance with self-love
53- yet a gradual development, realize we go over and over the cycle of becoming human, marrying up with the rhythms of the cosmos.
Yes, other hexagrams could well take the place of some above, but definitely not all; maybe not most. Whomever conceived the table (interestingly, maybe pre-dating I Ching, as Pocossin mentioned) has helped to enrich my understanding of life, and that I am a microcosm of macro-cosmic forces.

 

[bradford]

There is a set of twelve gua representing the 12 months, called the Sovereign Gua, including 1, 2, 11, 12, 19, 20, 23, 24, 33, 34, 43 & 44, and at least from the reference in 19 to Gua 20 (the 8th Month), and the tie to 24 for the winter solstice, these appear to have been part of the original thinking.

 

[svenrus]

I have made a correction in my post #15

(The attached pictures I couldn't delete but the second of those are incorrect so: please referr to the pdf-link)


Moreover I have added material according to Bradfords note on my pdf-Link, same post.

 

[falcott]

Thanks for your work, Sven.
With regards to the Sovereign Hexagrams mentioned by Bradford, I notice that some people centre the winter solstice (December) on hexagram 2, and others on 24. I personally feel that the return of yang would be observable after the solstice, so I tend to agree with the former view, and therefore 24 should be January. I wonder which one would be historically correct?
I did notice, Sven, that you have the marked the winter solstice as hexagram 2 also.

 

[svenrus]

I did notice, Sven, that you have the marked the winter solstice as hexagram 2 also.

Well, actually it isn't I who did that - just to put it right.
Inspired by the Fu Hsi order: http://www.yijing.co.uk/writing/notes/calendar.pdf - as mentioned...

I wonder which one would be historically correct?

As I guess, no body knows. Just feel that the Fu Hsi Order Layes closer to my "Western" sense of logic.

 

[falcott]

Yes of course Sven
Thanks again.

 

[svenrus]

Actually: to me remarkable that You asked the question in this thread #1 on the 25 of february and it caught my attention because on the very same day around 10 O'clock I asked this question:
"To example: When will I be able to start again on my job ? hex. 7.1.6 Answer: In May (Year ???)
I actually had asked this question as I'm unable for an unknown while to turn back to my occupation, but hex. 7 didn't told me anything about my question. It'll show up when I'm ready to start on job again and if it'll be in may this year... Or next, or the month of may in ten, twenty... Years ++?" (#2 in this thread).
According to the table (#2) in Alfred Huangs system the answer will be: In May month.
But according to John Blofeld's table it will be in the third (chinese !) month between the 13' and 18' day. It is in accordance with our april ie. from New Moon in april to New Moon in may.
On this 25 of february, asking the I, I got hex 7.1.6.
So: according to the table (Page 2, HERE)of John Blofeld I should be able to start on my job again either on the 13' day after New Moon april (first/bottom line changing) OR on the 18' day after New Moon april (sixht/top line changing)....

Another thing that stroked me: the nuclear/mutual hexagram is 24. This is the eleventh month and according to december in our calendar. My accident (Asked for in THIS thread) occured on the 21'th of december last Year. Out of what I have a suspection of, The I reflects what it is responding on in the nuclear hexagram, and if so, it fits here - at least - by pointing out the time when the accident hindered me in doing my job....

Well, this last point is under the chapter curiousity I know.

 

[pocossin]

correspondence of waxing/waning hexagrams to zodiac

24
19
11
34
43
01
44
33
12
20
23
02

This isn't exact because of the problem of calibration. The ancient Chinese centered divisions, like the Ides of March. The Western practice is to divide at the edges. Thus, the moment of spring equinox is at the moment Cancer begins, I think. Similarly but reversed, in the game of Go (weiqi) play is on the lines. In checkers and chess, play is on the spaces.


pattern of time

           ♊    ♋  
      ♉                ♌   
  ♈                         ♍   
---------------------------------------------------------------   equinox
                                    ♎                     ♓
                                         ♏              ♒  
                                               ♐   ♑

 

[pocossin]

I tend to think that the order isn't merely random

Yes, the order of the King Wen Sequence is not random, but to see it one must disattend to the appended words and attend to the hexagrams themselves, and most are incapable of doing this. It is strange that vision, the dominant sense, should be replaced by the auditory, but that is the affliction of the too sophisticated, except when they make the ultimate descent into irrational emotion.

I am a microcosm of macro-cosmic forces

But how do you see this? How do you interpret the visible cosmos as human? Are you aware of and do you use the Man of Signs? I have been attempting to research this topic but, so far, with little success. The Man of Signs is a dominant image in Southern folklore, which I am supposed to know but do not. To use the Man of Signs, the correspondence between the individual and the cosmos, an almanac is required. For a hundred years the southern USA was flooded with free almanacs, and these became a dominant cultural item. The Man of Signs brought the farmer, truck farmer, gardener, and the poorest of the poor (after all, it was free) into a connection with cosmic process. It told you when to cut hair and nails, when to have a tooth extracted, when to prune, weed, fertilize, set fence post, plant seed, set eggs, and by implication, conceive a child. The timing of every practical task was disclosed. Does this tradition exist in Tasmania?

 

[falcott]

Actually: to me remarkable that You asked the question in this thread #1 on the 25 of february...

I sometimes wonder if there is such a thing as chance, since everything occurs together in the one Totality. At least that gives an excuse for the I Ching to work

But according to John Blofeld's table it will be in the third (chinese !) month between the 13' and 18' day. It is in accordance with our april ie. from New Moon in april to New Moon in may.

I like Blofeld's method. But the proof is in the results, so please keep us informed as to your employment! I will also be making some consultation in important areas of my life using this method.

Referring to page 2 of your table ( HERE) are you able to explain the section in the green box, X1-X5 with corresponding days? And what is the source? Thanks.

The I reflects what it is responding on in the nuclear hexagram, and if so, it fits here - at least - by pointing out the time when the accident hindered me in doing my job....
Well, this last point is under the chapter curiousity I know.

Yes, very interesting! I'm going to pay more attention to the Nuclear hexagrams from now on.