Clarity,
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That would be an excellent example of "Inner Truth." But the more people pursue this relativism, the further they get from communicating effectively with each other, and with the authors of the Zhouyi, about what the Yi has to tell them. It's really little wonder that there are so many people here with questions they can't answer.
So, Bradford, are you saying only you know what is correct and all the other translations are wrong?
When I read different people's 'takes' on their readings, they are often quite diverse and can be contradictory. I wonder whether it might be the case that the I Ching's responses can be quite individual, and that no one translation or commentary is appropriate for everyone for this reason. Perhaps a bond is formed between I Ching and the individual querent that is more significant than general interpretations that are applicable in every case?
I think you are talking at cross purposes. I mean Brad started by saying how misleading some of the names of hexagram titles are. He has done an actual translation, not many people have. Many write Yi books who have done no translation or rely on others for translation.... So getting from ancient Chinese to todays language is a big divide...so if someone can get nearer the meaning of the original then as far as what is written in the I Ching goes...I mean what is actually written, the better. Hexagram titles are important because they influence our entire perception of the hexagram.
I think what you are speaking of is what people do with the translation once they have it...you are talking about commentaries I think....or else you are talking about people's individual application of the answer to any question. That has to be individual since all questions have a context and all do develop their own way of conversing with Yi. But there has to be some kind of base of the I Ching actually says. That involves going to a translation....not a commentary. a translation. So what is being said here as far as I can see is that the titles for these hexagrams have been badly translated from Chinese.
You and I aren't really in a position to argue since we can't translate Chinese. But in practise, in experience I think these are borne out, for me anyway. When has hexagram 11 ever really indicated 'peace' in your readings....? Likewise people think the title of 15, if it is 'modesty' think that it is about being humble...whereas it is more about integrity. So we start to put completely different connotations onto a hexagram because of the title which has been badly translated, so we get more lost. People still turn up on SR wondering why their hexagram 11 reading isn't giving them much 'peace', because of course the translations they have still use 'peace' as the title for hexagram 11.
I still think you mix up what is a translation and what is a commentary . Recently in a reading you took a tiny piece of commentary on 49.2 as your answer. That commentary you took is only someone's take, not the same as the translation. Translations can also be quite different of course according to how the words are ordered and so on, ie compare Wilhelm and Bradford.
Some of the Translations though, for example, Pearson calls Hex 15, Modesty; Bertschinger calls Hex 39, Obstruction; Lynn calls 11 Peace; and 15, Modesty also....
Aren't these any good?
Hey Bradford,
I'm reading your book now. It's good work, Thank you.
I've run across these names here and there,
How do you feel about them?
7: Recruiting Allies
11: Harmony
12: Divorcement
15: Moderation
22: Adornment (Legge, i think)
61: Sincerity/Integrity
And what words would you replace them with?
(Are you considering writing an interpretation now to accompany your translation? If so, i would encourage you to)
It seems you didn't even absorb my post before having your knee-jerk reaction. I didn't say Modesty was bad (just tongue in cheek). I said Humility was bad.
And yes, those particular renditions of those particular Gua Ming are no good. They reflect a poor understanding of the core meanings of those particular Gua, even if the translators did a good job elsewhere.
LOL, have to respect that, striving for higher standards. But it is your target you're shooting at.
:bows:
Have you actually seen Bradford's work ? I mean it's a bit more than a 'take' !
Hi Bruce! It's Courtney (aka answeredquestions). You know I love ya, but I have to speak in Brad's defense. If he were going for 'absolutes', his Vol. II wouldn't be so large. Nor would his Gua Ming page be so extensive. His objective is more to give as much information as possible in regards to the possibilities of defining a character.
After having a larger view of the various possibilities, individual translators must picking a name for each Gua (this is just the struggle as a translator). Picking something central, as the arrows in the yellow circle represent, works well for helping people understand. This is because the more central the arrow, the more it is close to *all* of the other arrows. The center is found by looking at all of the stragglers - in other words, the stragglers help to formulate where the middle is.
Another big thing is that people's first step in their reading is often associating with the Name of the Hexagram, so it is important to look at this relationship (and the reputation a Gua can have), and point out where something is not pinning the center, such as this post is meant to do.
If you receive the same hexagram three times you have three different answers.
The meanings of the hexagrams are not fixed, they change according to your situation. Hexagram 3 can mean that you are experiencing initial difficulties, but it can also mean that initial difficulties elsewhere have to be addressed. A friend of mine was asked to give a beginners course at the upcoming Yijing Symposium in Ruigoord. He asked the Yijing whether this was a good idea, and he received hexagram 3 (5th line moving). You could see this as a difficult start, leading to a troubled course, and be tempted not to do it. But who were the targets of the course? Indeed, those people who experience difficulties when starting to use the Yijing. Therefore, "if you receive the same hexagram three times you have three different answers". - Harmen Mesker
There is no text in the Yijing.
The words are not important, and although it can be very rewarding to look at the original Chinese text from a historical and philological point of view, you should not be carried away by the endless sea of possibilities that such an undertaking can give. What the Yijing gives you when you use the book are images, an overview, a situation, an idea - not words. Therefore, "there is no text in the Yijing". - Harmen Mesker
12, Pi as Obstruction. To use this term is to misunderstand what is going on completely. The forces here are not opposing each other but moving away from each other in opposite directions.
. If they just went away in the opposite direction, we wouldn't have a problem.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).