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The Hmong, former Miao tribe

surnevs

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Surnevs, I am not sure what you're getting at here? Maybe you are just asking a simple question: why would they assign dates to mythical beings, and how did they arrive at these dates?

I'm not sure how or even if that is answerable. And, does it really matter how or why they assigned (perhaps made-up) dates to mythical beings?

Maybe this is just an another interesting question, or a bit of information you're considering. Or maybe a thousand years from now it will be common knowledge that these were actual, real beings, who lived during actual, real dates and times. And we'll know that Fuxi and his sister-and-wife Nuwa did have human faces and the bodies of snakes (or dragon?) .... But until then ....

Yes, my using af datings taken from two books were the wrong way to put it.
Here maybe better the question might had been: Is there any known record about a conflict/battle between the mythical Fu Hsi and The yellow Emperor ? Not what I've read anywere about. But there were a battle between the mythical hero of the Hmong's where he lost the battle against The yellow Emperor....
In this way to say that those two mythical beings are not identical.
Beside that I'm aware that my research into such a complicated subject as to a connection between the oldest layers of the I Ching and the Miao tribe maybe better should lay in the hand of a sinologist, amateur as I am. I just got stucked into it and found those few connections interesting. Thank You for the links to the american Hmong society. I think maybe I could ask for litterature about it there....
 

dfreed

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.... my research into such a complicated subject as to a connection between the oldest layers of the I Ching and the Miao tribe ....
You started off this thread with a much more broad objective, to learn about the Hmong / Miao and “their relationship to divination” (which goes far beyond the Yi).

Whatever your goals are, I don’t feel I can offer much more; however, best of luck with your continued research.
 
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surnevs

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You started off this thread with a much more broad objective, to learn about the Hmong / Miao and “their relationship to divination” (which goes far beyond the Yi).

Whatever your goals are, I don’t feel I can offer much more; however, best of luck with your continued research.

- as long as it all is that uncertain, so many dead-end-roads, I can but only search claiming as little as possible about the subject. I nearly do know nothing but attend to go on until it's for sure that no connection can be found here. One more time: Thank You D
 

dfreed

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but (intend) to go on until it's for sure that no connection can be found here.
My limited 'research' tells me that the Hmong were originally from China, and that they lived for thousands of years with - and among - other peoples, whom we now think of as 'the Chinese'. It seems they attempted to keep a sense of their own traditions and often lived apart from those whose nation-states they were living in - the Shang, the Zhu, Chu, Qin, Wei, Qi, Yan, Han, etc.

But despite this intentional isolation, they had contact and even intermarried (or mated) with the prevailing cultures and peoples; and this included them making use of the Zhouyi, the oldest layer of the Yi. And when they moved south into what we now call Vietnam, Laos, Burma, etc, they brought the Yi with them -and it is still being used in those countries. (One account I read said this migration south, out of China happened fairly late - i.e. 1700-1800s.)

So, if you go with my 'research' you can conclude that yes, the Hmong did have a connection with the earliest layers of the Yijing, and they brought it with them when they migrated. So, connection confirmed! You are now GTG - good to go! But you may still want to fill in the details - including looking at myths, folk tales, cultural practices, etc. Those are all interesting, unique, beautiful, archetypal, mysterious - but I don't know if they necessary prove or conclude anything.

d.
 
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surnevs

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My limited 'research' tells me that the Hmong were originally from China, and that they lived for thousands of years with - and among - other peoples, whom we now think of as 'the Chinese'. It seems they attempted to keep a sense of their own traditions and often lived apart from those whose nation-states they were living in - the Shang, the Zhu, Chu, Qin, Wei, Qi, Yan, Han, etc.

But despite this intentional isolation, they had contact and even intermarried (or mated) with the prevailing cultures and peoples; and this included them making use of the Zhouyi, the oldest layer of the Yi. And when they moved south into what we now call Vietnam, Laos, Burma, etc, they brought the Yi with them -and it is still being used in those countries. (One account I read said this migration south, out of China happened fairly late - i.e. 1700-1800s.)

So, if you go with my 'research' you can conclude that yes, the Hmong did have a connection with the earliest layers of the Yijing, and they brought it with them when they migrated. So, connection confirmed! You are now GTG - good to go! But you may still want to fill in the details - including looking at myths, folk tales, cultural practices, etc. Those are all interesting, unique, beautiful, archetypal, mysterious - but I don't know if they necessary prove or conclude anything.

d.

OK, could be interesting what Taobabe says to that :rolleyes: The Hmong themselves, according to mr. Vang (the book I mentioned above), believe that they came to China from the West. But off course I'll follow your inspirational link.
I feel like the detective in those many movies who, when been asked "What are we looking for ?" replies "we'll know when we find it".

But what is interesting to me, also what You mention above, that the Hmong lived together at a certain time with the Zhou (Chou is what mr. Vang calles them).
 

dfreed

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they came to China from the West ...

the Hmong lived together at a certain time with the Zhou
I'm not sure how far 'west' he or you think they came from: Uzbekistan? Turkey? Greece? Spain?

But we do know that now the Hmong are living together with Sven and Ollie and the other Minnesotans, eh! And we have a pretty good idea of when that migration happened and where they came from - further to the west (across the Pacific)!

But then again, Minnesota is 'further west' from Uzbekistan, Turkey, Greece and Spain, so maybe the Hmong have just returned to their Ancestral Minnesota Homeland, to live among their ancestral relations: the Dakota, Sioux, Ojibwa, Anishinabe, Chippew, Winnebago ... but this time around, they have brought the wisdom of the Yijing with them!

I think this too is worth looking into.
 

surnevs

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OK, could be interesting what Taobabe says to that :rolleyes: The Hmong themselves, according to mr. Vang (the book I mentioned above), believe that they came to China from the West. But off course I'll follow your inspirational link.
I feel like the detective in those many movies who, when been asked "What are we looking for ?" replies "we'll know when we find it".

But what is interesting to me, also what You mention above, that the Hmong lived together at a certain time with the Zhou (Chou is what mr. Vang calles them).
"off course" :unsure: "of cause" (y) "inspirational link" :( "inspiring links" :sleep: - and yes: I "intented", which You, D., edited above. Please, You and others, bear over with me. Thank You.
 

surnevs

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I'm not sure how far 'west' he or you think they came from: Uzbekistan? Turkey? Greece? Spain?

But we do know that now the Hmong are living together with Sven and Ollie and the other Minnesotans, eh! And we have a pretty good idea of when that migration happened and where they came from - further to the west (across the Pacific)!

But then again, Minnesota is 'further west' from Uzbekistan, Turkey, Greece and Spain, so maybe the Hmong have just returned to their Ancestral Minnesota Homeland, to live among their ancestral relations: the Dakota, Sioux, Ojibwa, Anishinabe, Chippew, Winnebago ... but this time around, they have brought the wisdom of the Yijing with them!

I think this too is worth looking into.

About this I know as little as You or even less. But mr. Vang mentions (actually almost a chapter which I'll not typewriting as quote here *) that they out of their folktales, costums, traditions etc. concludes the possibility that they might have originated from around the "bible-area" (ie where the Bible found it's offspring), Mesopotania... (?)

*) Cop. 2008 U.S. - ISBN 978-1-4357-0932-4 First ed.
 

dfreed

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Mr. Vang ... concludes the possibility that they might have originated from around the "bible-area" (ie where the Bible found it's offspring), Mesopotania... (?)
And what does this have to do with divination and the Yi ????? And Mesopotamia as the 'offspring' of the the Bible? That makes no sense, nor does it have anything to do with divination and the Yi.

Besides, WE ALL came from Africa, and then through North Africa, Mesopotamia and the Middle East .... to get wherever it is we got to. That the Hmong (or their ancestors) and everyone else did this means nothing as far as I can tell. Maybe Mr. Vang aught to have his head examined - or maybe you should seriously question what he says, and not just believe it or keep repeating it.
 

surnevs

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And what does this have to do with divination and the Yi ????? And Mesopotamia as the 'offspring' of the the Bible? That makes no sense, nor does it have anything to do with divination and the Yi.

Besides, WE ALL came from Africa, and then through North Africa, Mesopotamia and the Middle East .... to get wherever it is we got to. That the Hmong (or their ancestors) and everyone else did this means nothing as far as I can tell. Maybe Mr. Vang aught to have his head examined - or maybe you should seriously question what he says, and not just believe it or keep repeating it.

I don't know what time it is by You but here it's late so I'll wait responsing. So long.
 

dfreed

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But Mr. Vang ... concludes the possibility that they might have originated from around the "bible-area" (ie where the Bible found it's offspring), Mesopotania...
And from a biography I found about Mr. Vang: In the spring of 1981 he moved to Kitchener (Ontario, Canada) to help organize and lead a Hmong Christian church ....

So, here we have a Hmong Christian giving us his skewed ideas about where the Hmong 'may' have come from, i.e. the 'bible-area'. As I said, maybe we shouldn't trust him and maybe we shouldn't keep repeating what he says - especially when it's sounding more and more absurd.

Best, D
 

surnevs

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And from a biography I found about Mr. Vang: In the spring of 1981 he moved to Kitchener (Ontario, Canada) to help organize and lead a Hmong Christian church ....

So, here we have a Hmong Christian giving us his skewed ideas about where the Hmong 'may' have come from, i.e. the 'bible-area'. As I said, maybe we shouldn't trust him and maybe we shouldn't keep repeating what he says - especially when it's sounding more and more absurd.

Best, D
SHIT I hoped to turn You into a good christian but You lurked me :cool:

No, somehow I can understand your frustration here. My reference to Taobabe above weren't ironic meant. As I remember she (he) once years ago suggested that I Ching originated in Vietnam and here You mentioned that maybe I Ching came to Vietnam via the Hmongs (a couple of postings here above) so in a glimpse I imagined her (he's) reaction for my eyes - Sorry about this mention.
Excuse me now for repeating myself: - as long as it all is that uncertain, so many dead-end-roads, I can but only search claiming as little as possible about the subject. I nearly do know nothing but attend to go on until it's for sure that no connection can be found here. One more time: Thank You D [#33]
I appreciate Your engagement in my search for clarity about this seemingly nonsens-subject which may or may not turn up to be interesting. Time will show. Whan possible I'll ask my question to the Hmong society which You kindly linked to me.
 

dfreed

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for myself: - as long as it is all uncertain, with so many dead-end-roads, I can only search, claiming as little as possible about the subject. I know (almost) nothing but Intend to go on until it's for sure that no connection can be found here.
If some of your post above were meant to be you ‘impersonating’ taobabe, then I did not get that, nor understand it. Sarcasm does not always work in a discussion forum.

A few times you mention the Hmong coming from the ‘bible area’. Besides being rather absurd, we need to seriously question and be skeptical of the source of this information, Mr. Vang.

For me there is no ‘connection’ to be followed here, so it’s frustrating to me that you keep repeating it - not to mention the fact that this has nothing to do with either divination or the Yi.

But I guess if you just want to collect random facts, words, rumor, myths, false claims, made-up dates ... all without any discernment - except that they might have something to do with the Hmong, then I’ll just have to leave you to your collecting.
 

surnevs

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If some of your post above were meant to be you ‘impersonating’ taobabe, then I did not get that, nor understand it. Sarcasm does not always work in a discussion forum.

A few times you mention the Hmong coming from the ‘bible area’. Besides being rather absurd, we need to seriously question and be skeptical of the source of this information, Mr. Vang.

For me there is no ‘connection’ to be followed here, so it’s frustrating to me that you keep repeating it - not to mention the fact that this has nothing to do with either divination or the Yi.

But I guess if you just want to collect random facts, words, rumor, myths, false claims, made-up dates ... all without any discernment - except that they might have something to do with the Hmong, then I’ll just have to leave you to your collecting.

It's OK with me.
 

dfreed

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Hi David:

TaoBabe and Vietnam can look in Clarity:
And some people will say it came from men from outer space.
I'm leaning more towards Bradford's take on this - and perhaps the military and the 'deep state' are keeping the true origins of the Yi secret at Roswell or Area 51.

I've also read that the Hmong didn't migrate south until much later (17-1800s), and that they originated in central China (as did the Shang, Zhou, Han ...), and/or they may have originated in 'bible areas' - perhaps they also read the bible, and are my people's 'lost tribe', and this proves a Yi/Bible connection; or maybe the Yi originated in Atlantis, or perhaps in West Africa and grew out of the Ifa divination tradition, or ....

People say an awful lot of stuff about the Yi, and I think some of it is 'real' awful.
 
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surnevs

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I'm leaning more towards Bradford's take on this - and perhaps the military and the 'deep state' are keeping the true origins of the Yi secret at Roswell or Area 51.

I've also read that the Hmong didn't migrate south until much later (17-1800s), and that they originated in central China (as did the Shang, Zhou, Han ...), and/or they may have originated in 'bible areas' - perhaps they also read the bible, and are my people's 'lost tribe', and this proves a Yi/Bible connection; or maybe the Yi originated in Atlantis, or perhaps in West Africa and grew out of the Ifa divination tradition, or ....

People say an awful lot of stuff about the Yi, and I think some of it is 'real' awful.
Beside that I've never heard or read people saying bad things about I Ching You are completely in your right to make your distance to this subject. I asked if any had knowledge about litterature about a connection between the I Ching and the Hmong's approach to it, said with other words. But I'm aware that my question could be misunderstood. And off cause You were in your right to ask me to deepen it out for clarification - I tried, but all I can do for now is to follow the hint's been given ie the book written by prof. Smith and your link to the Hmong society. It's my problem to follow this path. I've never asked You to follow it. Please.
 

dfreed

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It's my problem to follow this path. I've never asked You to follow it.
I was responding to things that Charly and Bradford (now gone) said - which I think is what this forum is about.

I agree, this is all yours to sort out.

But if it were me collecting a bag o' stuff: rumors, myths, lies, unknowable tall tales, mixed in with some facts ... that at some point I might want to sort through all this and make some decisions of what I think about it.

And sometimes we need to apply 'common sense' and even a wee bit of logic to how we're sorting all this - e.g. the Hmong did not come from 'bible lands' as a Christian Hmong man suggests; that sounds like complete bull to me, but that's jut my opinion: you may think otherwise.

At the local government agency I worked for there were many different working 'types' or styles, including those who wanted to endlessly collect 'data', and those who at some point made (or had to make) decisions or draw conclusions based on the data that had been collected.

But as you say, that's up to you decide, not me, and I'm not trying to stop you. I'm just adding commentary along the way.

Best, D
 

surnevs

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I was responding to things that Charly and Bradford (now gone) said - which I think is what this forum is about.

I agree, this is all yours to sort out.

But if it were me collecting a bag o' stuff: rumors, myths, lies, unknowable tall tales, mixed in with some facts ... that at some point I might want to sort through all this and make some decisions of what I think about it.

And sometimes we need to apply 'common sense' and even a wee bit of logic to how we're sorting all this - e.g. the Hmong did not come from 'bible lands' as a Christian Hmong man suggests; that sounds like complete bull to me, but that's jut my opinion: you may think otherwise.

At the local government agency I worked for there were many different working 'types' or styles, including those who wanted to endlessly collect 'data', and those who at some point made (or had to make) decisions or draw conclusions based on the data that had been collected.

But as you say, that's up to you decide, not me, and I'm not trying to stop you. I'm just adding commentary along the way.

Best, D

And I will - every body can say that - take your advice serious. But on the other hand I will not stop following this un-answer-able quest until the road gets too stony. I'm a donky concerning that. I know that You mean it in the best way mr. D. You have woked me up before - in another incarnation, say under another Avatar - but again: You go your way I go mine (sorry for quoting Bob Dylan in this connection)
 

dfreed

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take your advice serious. But on the other hand I will not stop following this un-answer-able quest
I assume you mean you'll take my advice to heart? That's all I ask. And sometimes ....

"You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows" - Dylan

(Or in other words, you don't need an historian - or the Yi - to know when someone is BS'ing you about Hmong from 'bible-lands'.)
 

surnevs

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I assume you mean you'll take my advice to heart? That's all I ask. And sometimes ....

"You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows" - Dylan

(Or in other words, you don't need an historian - or the Yi - to know when someone is BS'ing you about Hmong from 'bible-lands'.)

I'm afraid to say that now You sound just like one of my old good frinds (1944, Dover) who always continued an ended discussion with a provoking "and" or "so then" etc. Go along ol' Geezer. Be happy. You are a good man mr. D. What more do You want me to say ? No, Joking.
I'll end here for tonight, maybe, as I've emptied my second bottle of wine. Remember that when talking abroad misunderstandings can occour.... (!)
 
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surnevs

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Not to forget: Thank You Charly.

" lǚ shuāng: jiān bīng zhì.
TREAD FROST: HARD ICE COME.
You are TREADING on FROST: HARD ICE is COMING." *)

You opened up a melting dialogue, thank You sir !

*) Gregory C. Richters translation on Hex. 2.1
 

surnevs

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Ok. Then I will end with, best of luck to you.
Seven years older than me as he is there were always this wise smile behind these "provocatings", Thank You and luck to You too.
 

charly

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Which remind me of this:
index.php

"A girl of the Wishran tribe, in 1910" USA (not silver coins but chinese coins !)

from: LINK
Hi Sven:

An exotic beauty indeed, I'm not sure about the economic value of chinese bronze coins but may share with the silver adorns of Miao women the supposed magic power attached. Silver have extended reputation as protection against evil influcences. Say, like a silver bulleet to stop a vampyr.

I wonder if the girl knew that chinese coins were used for casting the Changes. Maybe we can suppose that those coins give some magic skill for managing the future.

Here a Miao maiden around 1911 wearing her silver dowry. Miao women carry a long reputation of being charming and dangerous for foreign travellers from not later than Zhou dynasty.

That reputation lasts till our time, when hospitality industry advices travelers to be cautious with those exotic women.
.
Miao_1.png
Samuel R. Clarke: «Among the Tribes of South-West China».
China Inland Mission, 1911
[Free available as ocr-pdf in Archive.org]
.
Miao cultures were historically closer to the communities described in the Book of Poetry, Shi Jing, than to political centralized states with its confucian dominant ideology. Those people were always rebels, their women enjoyed more sexual freedom, rights to own lands property, innitiative in courtship, more power to refuse family arranged unwanted marriages, even sometimes led the army or ruled. Of course they had bad press among the confucian intelligentzia.

I believe to perceive some connections with the Book of Changes:

H.18《䷑蠱 - Gu》meaning love spell, black magic, poisonous bugs, sexual disease.

H.44《䷫姤 - Gou meaning casual encounter, sexual intercourse, maybe a female ancestral title or a queen (后, hou), royal main wife or royal favorite concubine.

I'm thinking at what happens when a father falls under the influence of those bewitching beauties or what happens when one's own mother is one of they. Or why somebody believes that a powerful maiden is not advisable to marry with.

Maybe I'm wrong but from long I were accustomed to such no minstream ideas. Nobody's perfect!

All the best,

Charly.


 
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surnevs

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Hi Sven:

An exotic beauty indeed, I'm not sure about the economic value of chinese bronze coins but may share with the silver adorns of Miao women the supposed magic power attached. Silver have extended reputation as protection against evil influcences. Say, like a silver bulleet to stop a vampyr.

I wonder if the girl knew that chinese coins were used for casting the Changes. Maybe we can suppose that those coins give some magic skill for managing the future.

Here a Miao maiden around 1911 wearing her silver dowry. Miao women carry a long reputation of being charming and dangerous for foreign travellers from not later than Zhou dynasty.

That reputation lasts till our time, when hospitality industry advices travelers to be cautious with those exotic women.
.
View attachment 3713
Samuel R. Clarke: «Among the Tribes of South-West China».
China Inland Mission, 1911
[Free available as ocr-pdf in Archive.org]
.
Miao cultures were historically closer to the communities described in the Book of Poetry, Shi Jing, than to political centralized states with its confucian dominant ideology. Those people were always rebels, their women enjoyed more sexual freedom, rights to own lands property, innitiative in courtship, more power to refuse family arranged unwanted marriages, even sometimes led the army or ruled. Of course they had bad press among the confucian intelligentzia.

I believe to perceive some connections with the Book of Changes:

H.18《䷑蠱 - Gu》meaning love spell, black magic, poisonous bugs, sexual disease.

H.44《䷫姤 - Gou meaning casual encounter, sexual intercourse, maybe a female ancestral title or a queen (后, hou), royal main wife or royal favorite concubine.

I'm thinking at what happens when a father falls under the influence of those bewitching beauties or what happens when one's own mother is one of they. Or why somebody believes that a powerful maiden is not advisable to marry with.

Maybe I'm wrong but from long I were accustomed to such no minstream ideas. Nobody's perfect!

All the best,

Charly.


Hi Charly, it were a loose association, out of what Irfan wrote on #8
Magic and use of poison can be tracked in their songs. I have just started reading loosely through a book containing some of their tribal songs and tales collected by David Crockett Graham *) where theese themes are repeatings. Thank You for the references to theese Gua's !
There are one or two songs containing the use of Divining sticks to form a Kua, but the use of these are far from the use known in I Ching:
One example (scanned)

miao2.jpg


*) The tribal songs and Tales of the Ch'uan Miao, Asian Folklore and Social Life Monographs, Volume 102, Ed. by Prof. Lou Tsu-K'uang in collaboration with Wolfram Eberhard, The Chinese association for Folklore, Taipei, China 1978.
 

surnevs

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Hi Sven:

From Wolfram Eberhard Local Cultures, about Miao:

.
Wolfram Eberhard: «The Local Cultures of South and East China», Leiden, Brill 1968.
Available preview in Google Books.

May enjoy it,
all the best,

Charly
Hi Charly,

Thank You for the link to The Local Cultures of South... etc. by W. Eberhard. Today I received The I Ching by Richard J. Smith from the Library and have started "googling it" for references to whether the Hmong/Miao's had some- or nothing to do with the I Ching. I don't think there is any answer to be found here but maybe hint's that can lead further on...
That the Miao should have used Knotted ropes (." Among the Miao people in Southern China they still use knots of rope to reckon and to communicate with each other." #5) up until recently - if that is true - could point toward that they maybe also kept traditions alive that somehow were lost in The received Version of the I Ching IN CASE they actually had used the I Ching back then, say in mythical times or when they were in contact with the Zhou people.
This is my doggy-bone :rolleyes:
 

dfreed

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I ... perceive some connections with the Book of Changes:

H.18 - meaning love spell, black magic, poisonous bugs, sexual disease.
H.44 - meaning casual encounter, sexual intercourse, maybe a female ancestral title or a queen, royal main wife or royal favorite concubine.

I'm thinking (this is) what happens when a father falls under the influence of those bewitching beauties or ... when one's own mother is one of them. Or why somebody believes that a powerful maiden is not advisable to marry with.
When I've gotten Hex. 18 I often associate it with my mom, dad, and brother, whom are all my 'deceased ancestors'; and I can assure you that none of them died from black magic, nor sexual disease. Besides this, what often comes to mind for Hex. 18 is the idea of family dysfunction which can span generations - where the father or grandfather (or mother) was abusive or was abused, and this 'decay' is then passed down through generations And I believe this 'disease' was recognized by the Zhou (and even earlier) as it still is today.

For Hex. 44, there are all sorts of reasons why, 'though she be healthy, do not take her to wife' is true and good advice - and most of them have nothing to do casual sexual encounters or Miao / Hmong women seducing unsuspecting, foreign men: maybe something as simply as: 'we tried being lovers, but it worked better for both of us to just be friends'. Or, that our relationship to the feminine or to Gaia, Mother Earth should not be one of us men thinking we are - or should be - in control. And again, I think these are ideas that have been around tens of thousands of years, and are unrelated to 'bewitching beauties'.

I don't know if these interpretations you are sharing are 'main stream' or not, but when I read your interpretations, I wonder, did these come from the Pornographers' Yijing? E.g. "a true account of how the Miao / Hmong people traveled east from Biblical Lands, only to fall from grace and take up witchcraft and sexual seduction, which they then spread to the American Indians via coins with black magical powers."

As you said, definitely not main-stream.
 
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charly

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When I've gotten Hex. 18 I often associate it with my mom, dad, and brother, whom are all my 'deceased ancestors'; and I can assure you that none of them died from black magic, nor sexual disease...

... For Hex. 44, there are all sorts of reasons why, 'though she be healthy, do not take her to wife' is true and good advice - and most of them have nothing to do casual sexual encounters or Miao / Hmong women seducing unsuspecting, foreign men...

I don't know if these interpretations you are sharing are 'main stream' or not, but when I read your interpretations, I wonder, did these come from the Pornographers' Yijing?...

As you said, definitely not main-stream.
Hi David:

Believe it or not when we are reading and interpreting the Changes we are handling with a long tradition that came to us thrugh written text, like the received version. Chinese script is a monster of comlexity, even sinlge words like GU or GOU have acquired lot of meaninings some of wich can be quite different and some even contradictory among them. Much of those meanings have get lost in the time. From all the written texts along the history the majority have dissapeared.

We have no other alternative than use a little handful of meanings brough to us. Whyt to take only one or two?

See, I believe to perceive a connection between GU (Bewitchment) and GOU (Ancestral Queen) maybe History ant Anthropology can shed some light. Going back less far I've found this story:

«...
Darrin Stephens: Well, I'm just not going to stand for it in my house. If I have to, I won't go home for a year!
Stranger: It's just about a year since I've been home.
Darrin Stephens: I mean it, I... It is?
Stranger: I never should've told my mother-in-law to get out of the house! She owns it.
Darrin Stephens: You hadn't seen your family in all that time?
[the bartender rolls his eyes. The stranger begins sobbing]
Stranger: I went back once about six months ago. My kid didn't recognize me; and the dog bit me and he's my dog!
[the stranger drops his head on the counter and sobs some more]
Bartender: Comes in every night and cries like that.
Darrin Stephens: Wow!.
Bartender: You know, pal, this job gives me a chance to see some pretty good observations. Now he thinks his mother-in-law's a holy terror and you think your wife's queen of the witches. But if the truth be it known, they all got their good points. Right, pal?
Darrin Stephens: They sure do, pal. They sure do.
... »
Bewitched_4_1.jpg
The quote belongs the TV serie «Bewitched» 4th. season, 1st. episode «Long Life to the Queen»
[ Source: IMDb ]

Is there maybe a connectioon with some stories fron far away and long ago?

From a coutry and time where the Highest Ancestress, Mothers of Dynasty Innitiators or of Cultural Heroes, were said to get pregnant in casual encounter with God's footsteps, Bird's eggs, Dragons or other strange agents like it, without need of humans be husbands, masters, kings or villains.

The history of those times, for not to speak of those of the ours, is full of disreputable stories. Historians that wrote it belonged in general to mainstreams. They were not pornographers in spite of the character the stories they told.

Trust me David, the whole think is a monster of complexity that nobody is able to tame. Even less if armed with simplistic principles. We are condemned to work with little parcial stories, not with the whole History.Why to discard any?

All the best,

Charly
 
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