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The Hmong, former Miao tribe

IrfanK

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Hi David:

Believe it or not when we are reading and interpreting the Changes we are handling with a long tradition that came to us thrugh written text, like the received version. Chinese script is a monster of comlexity, even sinlge words like GU or GOU have acquired lot of meaninings some of wich can be quite different and some even contradictory among them. Much of those meanings have get lost in the time. From all the written texts along the history the majority have dissapeared.

We have no other alternative than use a little handful of meanings brough to us. Whyt to take only one or two?

See, I believe to perceive a connection between GU (Bewitchment) and GOU (Ancestral Queen) maybe History ant Anthropology can shed some light. Going back less far I've found this story:

«...
Darrin Stephens: Well, I'm just not going to stand for it in my house. If I have to, I won't go home for a year!
Stranger: It's just about a year since I've been home.
Darrin Stephens: I mean it, I... It is?
Stranger: I never should've told my mother-in-law to get out of the house! She owns it.
Darrin Stephens: You hadn't seen your family in all that time?
[the bartender rolls his eyes. The stranger begins sobbing]
Stranger: I went back once about six months ago. My kid didn't recognize me; and the dog bit me and he's my dog!
[the stranger drops his head on the counter and sobs some more]
Bartender: Comes in every night and cries like that.
Darrin Stephens: Wow!.
Bartender: You know, pal, this job gives me a chance to see some pretty good observations. Now he thinks his mother-in-law's a holy terror and you think your wife's queen of the witches. But if the truth be it known, they all got their good points. Right, pal?
Darrin Stephens: They sure do, pal. They sure do.
... »
View attachment 3720
The quote belongs the TV serie «Bewitched» 4th. season, 1st. episode «Long Life to the Queen»
[ Source: IMDb ]

Is there maybe a connectioon with some stories fron far away and long ago?

From a coutry and time where the Highest Ancestress, Mothers of Dynasty Innitiators or of Cultural Heroes, were said to get pregnant in casual encounter with God's footsteps, Bird's eggs, Dragons or other strange agents like it, without need of humans be husbands, masters, kings or villains.

The history of those times, for not to speak of those of the ours, is full of disreputable stories. Historians that wrote it belonged in general to mainstreams. They were not pornographers in spite of the character the stories they told.

Trust me David, the whole think is a monster of complexity that nobody is able to tame. Even less if armed with simplistic principles. We are condemned to work with little parcial stories, not with the whole History.Why to discard any?

All the best,

Charly
How come I can't click Laugh, Like and Thank You all at the same time?!

The association between Gou and a sexual encounter is hardly obscure. I think Hilary handles it with great tact and subtlety, translating it as "Coupling," which certainly includes that connotation, while at the same time allowing other associations. And then we have Bradford:

44.G, From the Glossary
gou4 (to) couple, pair, connect, mate, copulate, meet (with), pair (up) with, come
in(to) contact with, come in(to) conflict with, encounter (s, ed, ing); (a, the)
(chance) encounter, (temporary) affair, (ad hoc) coalition; temptation, seduction,
dissipation
It does seem to come up a lot in questions about relationships that are driven by sexual passion and are perhaps not socially sanctioned (outside marriage, affairs, so on).
 
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dfreed

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Believe it or not when we are reading and interpreting the Changes we are handling with a long tradition that came to us through written text .... Chinese script is a monster of complexity, even single words like GU or GOU have acquired lot of meanings, some of which can be quite different and some even contradictory among them.
Charly, believe it or not, from the beginning of my Yi studies and use, I have been aware of this long tradition and the wide range of meanings - this monster of complexity - that the words and the Yi carries with it.

But despite this wide range of meanings (some of which we wildly speculate upon, and make up myths and stories about, because their meanings have been lost or are no longer fully understood); I often get the sense that you tend to narrowly define this range of meanings in terms of SEX. So, Hex. 18 which can have a 'range of meanings, including:
corruption, decay, putrefaction, worms, toxicity, poison, pestilence; renewal, healing, curing, purging, detoxifying; [neurosis, toxic ideas, a closed mind]; and that it can be is a Janus word, meaning both to be poisoned and to cure from poison .... (from Hatcher)

... you narrowly define it as:
a love spell, black magic, poisonous bugs, sexual disease.

And so too with Hex. 44, which I think can be about family history, and passed-down dysfunction, habits, and deeply-held wounds, including sexual abuse; but you reduce it down to:
casual encounter, sexual intercourse, maybe a female ancestral title or a queen ....​

So - as Aretha Franklin, the queen of soul, once said - who's zooming who here? I mean, I suppose I could see the dragons flying about in Hex. 1 as a bunch of us guys with our shlongs hanging out; or Hex. 2 might be the Earth seducing us with her amble bosom, and her "purple mountain majesties, above the fruited plain!" Or maybe Hex. 29, describes the deep pit and abyss of the female sexual organ, which we can so easily fall into ...."

And of course seduction and the allure and dangers of the feminine for men were well known to the ancestors: just consider 'the tale of brave Ulysses' being tied to the mast so he could hear the cries and temptations of the sirens without being carried away by them ....

But as you suggest, to 'just make it all about sex' defeats the purpose of these many / multiple meanings, that are so much more than that ....

And so circling back, I find myself wondering, does your interpretation above, really tell us much (or anything) - or give us a more full picture- about the Hmong's use of the Yi or divination?

And finally, you may not mean anything by it, but what you say feels both a bit sexist and racist to me: here we are being told that the (perhaps white) innocent explorer / merchant / wanderer needs to be careful of being seduced by - fill in the blank - the dark, seductive, Mexican, African, Amazonian, Hmong, America Indian beauties ....

Regards, David
 
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surnevs

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If (!) this research into the history of the Hmong is right, they may very possible have had some kind of connection to the I Ching...

"Modern research, however, has given some credence to the legend. New evidence suggests that the Miao may have been among the first people to have settled in China. Researchers found that many words in Chinese related to rice farming were borrowed from the Miao language. This indicates that the Miao were likely among the first rice farmers in China. In the middle Yangtze River region, geneticists have also established a connection between the Miao and the Daxi, whose culture dates back approximately 5,300 to 6,000 years ago. The Daxi have long been credited as being some of the first cultivators of rice in China, meaning the Miao may have at least descended from or perhaps have been among the first settlers in China. If Miao ancestry dates back all the way to the founding of China, it is no wonder that, over time, they have developed into so many subgroups!"

Source

PS: It's from the WWW, and my experience tells me that this kind of information shall be taken with a bit of skeptiscism.
 

charly

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Charly, believe it or not, from the beginning of my Yi studies and use, I have been aware of this long tradition and the wide range of meanings - this monster of complexity - that the words and the Yi carries with it ..
Hi David:

Surely there is much truth in your words, David. In some things. In others I think you are wrong.

I will answer you asap, going by parts.The access to Internet is not always affordable for me.

I don't believe to be a pornographer. Must recognize that I 'm very intrested in love. Only that I think love is carnal, I don't trust in platonic love.
(to be continued)

All the best,

Charly
 
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dfreed

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Only that I think love is carnal, I don't trust in platonic love.
That is of course you right. But that does not mean you get to redefine what the Yi means based on your own desires. That does not feel any different to me than when people create 'The Christian Yijing" or the "Marxist-Communist Yijing" (and I believe there are actually versions of each of these).

I didn't say you were a pornographer, only that's how what you are saying feels like to me. More to the point is: you keep talking about a broad range of meanings, and then turn around a narrowly define what the Yi means (usually in terms of carnal love, or sex).

I think this elusive thing called 'love' can include carnal and platonic love, and a much, much wider range of emotions, feelings and manifestations. But to say it is only 'carnal' seriously narrows our possibilities of what 'love' is, and I don't think that matches at all how the world works. And to make the entire Yi about carnal love, narrows it even further. Consider:
A crane calling in the shade. Its young answers it. I have a good goblet. I will share it with you." (Wilhelm, 61.2)​

I just don't see how the love or 'call' between a mother and her young; nor sharing joy among friends is about 'carnal' love, nor should it be.

Depending on what we've asked the Yi, I think any of the responses can be about sex, just as they can be about what to have for dinner, or what college to go to, or about COVID, or about the tree that fell on my neighbors' house .... or a myriad of other topics and ideas.

I was in a discussion a few months ago with someone who was telling me that he had discovered (or come up) with the 'real Yi' which includes, binary code, yin-yang theory, advanced math, mother-goddess worship, a re-ordering of the Yi (with hex. 33 in the lead); ties back to a Neolithic, matriarchal, Younger Dryas culture, (from around 12,900 to 11,700 years ago); and space aliens may have been thrown in for good measure.

What I told him was this was his belief system, and it is the way he defines and understands the Yi, which is entirely fine (and that's something we all probably do to one extent or another); but I also said that what he was describing was just that - his beliefs about the Yi - and not the Yijing itself. And he continually got pissed at me for saying this.

As I have told surnevs, I can't really fathom how this random collection of bits and pieces, and suspect 'facts', and descriptions of seductive women, (or interpretations of how how the Yi is describing these seductive women), or origins in 'bible areas', or knots in ropes, or colored sashes .... will ever lead to any sort of definitive conclusion regarding the Hmong and the Yi. But this is his quest, so he can of course continue it.

D
 
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IrfanK

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That is of course you right. But that does not mean you get to redefine what the Yi means based on your own desires. That does not feel any different to me than when people create 'The Christian Yijing" or the "Marxist-Communist Yijing" (and I believe there are actually versions of each of these).

I didn't say you were a pornographer, only that's how what you are saying feels like to me. More to the point is: you keep talking about a broad range of meanings, and then turn around a narrowly define what the Yi means (usually in terms of carnal love, or sex).
I guess it is worth remembering that every person on earth* is here as the result of an act of sexual passion involving their parents. Sexual attraction is pretty fundamental. And there is quite a lot about that in the old Chinese classics, particularly the Book of Songs. The Spring fertility rituals, the periods when the rules about sexual propriety didn't apply. The idea of the broken line representing female, the solid line representing male, a precursor to the idea of yin-yang. I'm not sure I buy the whole thing, but it certainly seems to be worth considering.

And finally, you may not mean anything by it, but what you say feels both a bit sexist and racist to me: here we are being told that the (perhaps white) innocent explorer / merchant / wanderer needs to be careful of being seduced by - fill in the blank - the dark, seductive, Mexican, African, Amazonian, Hmong, America Indian beauties ....
Those kind of ideas do pop up in mythologies from around the world all the time. They don't necessarily involve white men and colored women, although they often do in societies dominated by white men. The Javanese have plenty of myths about female spirits that seduce unwary men, and the Javanese are definitely generally dark brown, not white. The spirits generally look like women from the front, but are invisible or transparent from behind. The stories are used to scare horny adolescent males away from casual encounters with women they meet in dark corners. You can also find similar stories in the Greek classics, the Sirens and so on.

Oh, and I've heard about this Marxist I Ching, I think it's called the Red Ching, by Thomas Somebody. I'd love to have a copy for my collection. Let's see if I can find the cover shot:

red.ching.jpg

* IVF programs notwithstanding.
 
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charly

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Hi David:

Surely there is much truth in your words, David. In some things. In others I think you are wrong.

I will answer you asap, going by parts.The access to Internet is not always affordable for me.

I don't believe to be a pornographer. Must recognize that I 'm very intrested in love. Only that I think love is carnal, I don't trust in platonic love.
(to be continued)

All the best,

Charly
(coming from former post)
Some documents for those interested in it:

Source: «Visualising Ethnicity in the Southwest Borderlands» by Jing Zhu,
Chapter 2: Dancing in the Moonlight - Fashioning Sexuality on Non-Han People

Pages 89-156
Available in Google Books.
Given that it provides a parcial preview, some pages cannot be available at random.​
______________________________
放 野, Fang4 Ye3, can be translated almost literally as «Letting go at the Outskirts» or «Releasing at the Wilderness». I believe to remeember that something alike was said of Confucius' Mother without affecting her reputation. [Charly]

Ref. taken mainly from MDBG
1-syllabe words:
, fang4: to put / to place / to release / to free / to let go / to let out
, ye3: field / plain / open country/ wilderness / outskirts / limit / boundary / wild / feral
合, he2, to close / to join / to fit / to be equal to / whole / together / round (in battle) / conjunction (astronomy) / 1st note of pentatonic scale // euphemism for sexual intercourse, as in "joining the yin with the yang" [Charly]
郊, jiao1: suburbs / outskirts
交, jiao1: to hand over / to deliver / to pay / to turn over / to make friends / to intersect // euphemism for sexual intercourse, maybe the former sense [Charly]
2-syllabe words:
野放
, ye3fang4: to release (an animal) into the wild
野合, ye3he2: to commit adultery
郊野, jiao1 ye3: open area outside the city / countryside .
See more about both Jiao1, and :
Jiao_Mei_Schuessler.png Source: ABC Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese by Axel Schuessler, pacial preview available in Google Books.
Allthe best,

Charly
________________________
P.D:
For the second quoted page:
跳, tiao4 : to jump / to hop / to skip over / to bounce / to palpitate / to dance
月, yue4 : moon / month / monthly
Ch.
 
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IrfanK

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(coming from former post)
Some documents for those interested in it:


Visualising Ethnicity in the Southwest Borderlands: Gender and ...
By Jing Zhu,
Chapter 2: Dancing in the Moonlight - Fashioning Sexuality on Non-Han People

Pages 89-156
Available in Google Books.
Given that it provides a parcial preview, some pages cannot be available at random.​
______________________________
放 野, Fang4 Ye3, can be translated almost literally as «Letting go at the Outskirts» or «Releasing at the Wilderness». I believe to remeember that something alike was said of Confucius' Mother without affecting her reputation. [Charly]

Ref. taken mainly from MDBG
1-syllabe words:
, fang4: to put / to place / to release / to free / to let go / to let out
, ye3: field / plain / open country/ wilderness / outskirts / limit / boundary / wild / feral
合, he2, to close / to join / to fit / to be equal to / whole / together / round (in battle) / conjunction (astronomy) / 1st note of pentatonic scale // euphemism for sexual intercourse, as in "joining the yin with the yang" [Charly]
郊, jiao1: suburbs / outskirts
交, jiao1: to hand over / to deliver / to pay / to turn over / to make friends / to intersect // euphemism for sexual intercourse, maybe the former sense [Charly]
2-syllabe words:
野放
, ye3fang4: to release (an animal) into the wild
野合, ye3he2: to commit adultery
郊野, jiao1 ye3: open area outside the city / countryside .

Allthe best,

Charly
I remember reading this article a while back:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...e-tibetan-tribe-where-a-man-is-never-the-boss

Quite interesting. There's also a large ethnic group in West Sumatra, the Minang, which is also a matrilineal society, with land ownership being passed down from mother to daughter. Quite odd, they are also among the most devoutly Islamic group in Indonesia. Somehow they reconcile that. The men are expected to travel out of the homelands, trade, make money, come home, marry a local woman, build her a house on her land. If they ever divorce (very rare!), the woman keeps the lot. And the daughters inherit it all.

It's not really a matriarchal society. Men are still powerful, but it's your mother's brother, not your father, who makes the big family decisions. Dad is always regarded as a harmless, likeable bloke, but it's your uncle who you've got to watch out for.
 
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surnevs

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I will present one of "the loose ends" and explain why I can't get into discussion about it:

Hex. 51.2 Gregory C. Richters translation.


" zhèn lái lì. yì sàng bèi.
THUNDER COME DANGER. HUNDRED-THOUSAND LOSE COWRIE-SHELL.
The THUNDER COMES, bringing DANGER. A HUNDRED THOUSAND COWRIE SHELLS
are LOST.

jī yú jiǔ líng, wù zhú. qī rì dé.
CLIMB AT NINE HILL, NOT PURSUE. SEVEN DAY GAIN.
Even if he CLIMBS TO the NINE HILLS, do NOT PURSUE him. In
SEVEN DAYS he will be TAKEN.
"

When I got this hexagram years ago I asked myself: Why Nine Hills ? Were this a location somewhere or an expression like "God thank it's Friday" or something like that... At a certain time there were nine Miao tribes and I've read somewhere that they nicknamed their tribes Hills, but I can't remember where I read that so therefore I can't go into a discussion about it.
About Cowrie-shells wich were the money back then, I've read somewhere that the Miao used those up until recently, but I can't remember where I read that, so I can't go into a discussion about it here.

That this is "a loose end" speaks for itself.
 

dfreed

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I will answer you asap, going by parts ....
Source: «Visualising Ethnicity in the Southwest Borderlands» by Jing Zhu,
Chapter 2: Dancing in the Moonlight - Fashioning Sexuality on Non-Han People
I am assuming that you'll still be getting back to me, yes? What I see so far is another document and some glosses for words. But neither of those tells me what you think or feel about what I said.

Regards, D
 

dfreed

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I guess it is worth remembering that every person on earth is here as the result of an act of sexual passion involving their parents. Sexual attraction is pretty fundamental.
I never said or implied anything different. That's sort of a no-brainer. But I don't think this fundamental urge or idea means that the Yi is all about - and only about - carnal love, nor that this is the only type of love which exists - and that's pretty much what Charly's posts feel like, and even more so because of the response he gave:

I think love is carnal, I don't trust in platonic love.
For someone to say that seems to me to be pretty darn obsessive, and not at all about divination nor the Yi - which was the point I was getting at.
 

my_key

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Karcher, who I think is highly in keeping with shamanic rituals in his interpretations of the hexagrams, writes for Hex 18:
"Corruption / Renovating describes your situation in terms of poison, putrefaction, black magic and the evil deeds done by parents that are manifested in their children"
Apparently searching out the source is pleasing to the spirits. He also annotates the point of change as 'seedburst' ( One for you there Charly ;) )

Hex 44 is equally evocative of shamanic / spiritual connection and exorcism where he notes the presence of 'hungry souls and angry ghosts' and that:
"There is an angry old ghost in the situation that has returned to take revenge for past mistreatment"
All part of the dance between light and dark, methinks.

Take care.
 

surnevs

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IrfanK: (#10) I've found no mentioning of the Miao/Hmong in Prof. R. J. Smith's book but thank You so much for leading my attention to it. When reading it I saw a mountain of information, valueable to the mind of the seeker.
Just to update.
 

dfreed

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Karcher, ... writes for Hex 18: "Corruption / Renovating describes your situation in terms of poison, putrefaction, black magic and the evil deeds done by parents that are manifested in their children."
Thanks:
There was a video on YouTube (no longer there), which showed Karcher teaching a Yi class. In it he quoted from the DaZhuan - the Great Treatise:
Going and coming within limits​
gives warning without and within,​
shedding light on trouble and its causes,​
not as a guide or teacher,​
but like a parent at one’s side ...​

This is a bit different than his version, but he made a point that we should think of the Yi as a kind parent offering us advice - and not so much as teacher or guide. He recalled that once when he said this, a man told him afterwards that his father was an 'alcoholic son of a bitch' and that he could never think of him with any kindness or as a teacher or guide, or friend.

Karcher described the conversation that followed - including his suggestion that the man think of the illness and pain that his father was in; Karcher said that this opened a 'window' to different way which this man could then view his relationship with his father.

For me, this touches on much more than just Karcher's understanding and teachings about the Yi, but I think it includes healing our family / parental wounds and toxicity, - which can be the "Mildew" (or decay, or toxicity) for, or from "a deceased (male or female) ancestor" (Hex. 18, which Bradford Hatcher calls 'detoxifying').

That's what his talk reminded me of, along with some of Jung's ideas concerning addiction: that it can also be seen as a quest for longing and wholeness.

Best, D
 
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IrfanK

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IrfanK: (#10) I've found no mentioning of the Miao/Hmong in Prof. R. J. Smith's book but thank You so much for leading my attention to it. When reading it I saw a mountain of information, valueable to the mind of the seeker.
Just to update.
Glad to hear you enjoyed it! Now I want to read it myself!
 

my_key

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............ but he made a point that we should think of the Yi as a kind parent offering us advice - and not so much as teacher or guide. He recalled that once when he said this, a man told him afterwards that his father was an 'alcoholic son of a bitch' and that he could never think of him with any kindness or as a teacher or guide, or friend.

Karcher described the conversation that followed - including his suggestion that the man think of the illness and pain that his father was in; Karcher said that this opened a 'window' to different way which this man could then view his relationship with his father.
I like the idea of Yi as a nurturing parent: I have seen that quality many times in my consultations. When we are able to open a 'window' to view a situation from a different perspective change is a natural consequence. Karcher looks to be inviting the man to allow empathy, compassion and forgiveness into his relationship with his father. No bad thing for him and no bad thing for the rest of us either to embrace these qualities. Great tonics, all, for removing the poison from old wounds.
That's what his talk reminded me of, along with some of Jung's ideas concerning addiction: that it can also be seen as a quest for longing and wholeness.
Some modern day thinking also sees addiction as stemming from a lack of belonging or connection. Connection to self becomes broken when we have been hurt by others and addictive connection to 'another' can present a false god of safety and wholeness. Gabor Mate springs to mind as a person who speaks of this in his You Tube videos on the subect.

Shamanic use of hallucinogenic substances, which if taken in large doses were toxic, brokered many a connection with a 'nurturing parent'. Additionally on these journeys there was also a facing / encountering of 'hungry souls and angry ghosts' that needed to be experienced or to be heard. Only then could empathy, compassion and forgiveness be awaken into the relationship we have with ourselves.

I'm sure there is much that can be learnt from following the connection of the Miao tribe to the Yi and for unravelling early shamanic practices that drove the early relationship of the two.

Sexual energy is a big player in many of life situations and the unleashing of healing forces (and other forces for that matter). Although @charly I'm not sure it is as clear cut as you seem to portray. There is a place and a need for trusting in both carnal and platonic love. If you follow the Ancient Greeks they valued philia (platonic) love higher than eros (carnal) love although each have their own beauty. For me though the top two are agape - love of everyone (metta for the buddhists ) and philautia - love of self. Which may be what Karcher was ushering towards our man in the video.....just like a nurturing parent.

Take Care.

 

dfreed

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There is a place and a need for trusting in both carnal and platonic love. If you follow the Ancient Greeks they valued philia (platonic) love higher than eros (carnal) love although each have their own beauty. For me though the top two are agape - love of everyone (metta for the buddhists ) and philautia - love of self. Which may be what Karcher was ushering towards our man in the video.....just like a nurturing parent.
Thanks My-key:

For me, one lesson here is that the Yi includes all of this - and more. Any situation we ask the Yi about might be entirely about carnal love, or (as is many times the case) may have nothing to do with it. And even 'carnal' love I would define as including relationships between people, and that includes much more than just sex: there is joy, trust, friendship (even between lovers), communication (especially between lovers!), metta, karuna (compassion), decision-making, conflict, safety, community, and a whole host of other things.

For me, that's what the Yi and its contents speaks to.

D
 
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my_key

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Thanks My-key:

For me, one lesson here is that the Yi includes all of this - and more. Any situation we ask the Yi about might be entirely about carnal love, or (as is many times the case) may have nothing to do with it. And even 'carnal' love I would define as including relationships between people, and that includes much more than just sex: there is joy, trust, friendship (even between lovers), communication (especially between lovers!), metta, karuna (compassion), decision-making, conflict, safety, community, and a whole host of other things.

For me, that's what the Yi and its contents speaks to.

D
Yep, I agree Yi can influence and nurture in many ways. Mostly though I think that Yi speaks to each of us individually as that is the only place where we can truly be responsible for the change advocated. A warm and nurturing hand guiding us with each reading towards the best practice for the superior person.
......and this has been happening from the dawn of time.
 

surnevs

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dfreed, I found no relevant information in the link's given by You on #23 concerning the Hmong's use of Divination associated with the I Ching.
Just to Update.
 

dfreed

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I found no relevant information in the link's given by You on #23 concerning the Hmong's use of Divination associated with the I Ching.
I didn't expect that you would. I only meant to link to stuff about their religion and rituals.
 

surnevs

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Rosada #16, There are an interesting point here, in the Answer given by I Ching.
"He made knotted cords and used them for nets and baskets in hunting and fishing. He probably took this from the hexagram of The Clinging". 1)
This is actually one of the attributes ascribed to Fu Hsi.
About Chih Yu there is no such connections attributed; He is connected with agriculture, ricefarming, and domestication of animals like the ox. 2)
But that this Hexagram, h. 30, in this context "points toward" Fu Hsi, I find being remarkable the inquiery concerned, besides Chih Yu, Him.

As I'm not a Diviner I'll ommit calling this posting an Update....



______________
1) Richard Wilhelm, Ta Chuan, Book II, Ch. 2 History of Civilization.
2) Thomas S. Vang, A History of the Hmong, Ch. One pg. 32,
 
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surnevs

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In the book linked by Charly #55 I found this passage where a slight connection between the Chinese Fu Hsi and the Miao Bu-i via a legend of the Flood can be seen. (#82)
% attached pdf

(It's worth mentioning here that the author were Missionaire.)

About The Yellow River Map and The Great Yu who worked for a long period of time to controle the Water after the Great Flood: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_River_Map
(In this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_River_Map#Interpretation)
 

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surnevs

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Until now it seems to me that the material at hand is mainly written by missionaries who weren't that focused on details concerning their divination practice but more about their religions in general as seen from the perspectives of a Western. Writing this I'm waiting for yet more material ordered home from the library - in English, as I understand neither French nor Chinese, languages in which most concerning the subject is written - in the hope to find some traces on material that could spread light on passages in the I Ching.
Just to update.
 
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dfreed

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.... hope to find some traces on material that could spread light on passages in the I Ching. Just to update.

Thanks for the update. To refresh my memory, I think one of these passages you are talking about this from the 6th Wing (one of the later commentaries) of the Yi:

In earliest times, knotted cords were used in administration. Later sages changed this, introducing written documents and bonds for regulating the various officials and supervising the people. This may have come from (Hexagram 43).

I wonder: is it possible that the Shang, Zhou, and Hmong peoples all came from the same region and lived with (or side by side) each other. And in many ways they maintained their individuality as people, but also shared customs, rituals, ways of counting ... and that they later went their separate ways .... ?

Or ... maybe that's not what happened at all.

But this also makes me wonder, if there are other peoples (societies, clans, tribes, etc.) who also used knotted cords for counting and keeping track? It might be interesting to see if we find this in other parts of the world (African, the Americas ...), and what the implications of that might?

Good luck with your continued search. Best, D.
 

surnevs

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Thanks for the update. To refresh my memory, I think one of these passages you are talking about this from the 6th Wing (one of the later commentaries) of the Yi:

In earliest times, knotted cords were used in administration. Later sages changed this, introducing written documents and bonds for regulating the various officials and supervising the people. This may have come from (Hexagram 43).

I wonder: is it possible that the Shang, Zhou, and Hmong peoples all came from the same region and lived with (or side by side) each other. And in many ways they maintained their individuality as people, but also shared customs, rituals, ways of counting ... and that they later went their separate ways .... ?

Or ... maybe that's not what happened at all.

But this also makes me wonder, if there are other peoples (societies, clans, tribes, etc.) who also used knotted cords for counting and keeping track? It might be interesting to see if we find this in other parts of the world (African, the Americas ...), and what the implications of that might?

Good luck with your continued search. Best, D.
Hi again,

Not only are the Miao / Hmong said to have used Quippi's / knotted cords up until recently but also that they used cowrie shells up until recently. Up until the 19' century, their shamans practised communication with evil spirits by using the Five directions known from the River Lo Map. They seem to have kept traditions and use of material such as Cowrie shells where the Chinese long time ago started using coins and knotted Cords where the Chinese long time ago started using written signs. I ask myself: could it be possible that some expressions used in the I Ching, cryptic to us today, can be found explained in some of their songs and ceremonies? - and thank's to You for wishing me Good luck!
 
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dfreed

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I ask myself: could it be possible that some expressions used in the I Ching, cryptic to us today, can be found (or) explained in some of their songs and ceremonies?

Yes, I think that is entirely possible.

It reminds me - though it's not exactly the same: a Dragon leads the Chinese New Year parade - similar to how we find dragons at the beginning of the Yi (in Hex. 1 and 2).

I'd be interested to see what you find.

I mean no offense, but the skeptic in me wonders - even if we do find cowrie shells, knotted cords, and the five elements in these old songs and ceremonies, will it actually help us in understanding how these were used in the Yi?

Or more importantly (for me) ... will they help me better understand how I can make use of these cryptic phrases in my Yi practice?

- or is is my imagination (seeing images) an equally useful tool for this? (And one that's readily available to me.)

Regards, D
 

surnevs

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I'd be interested to see what you find.
- those missionaries, on the other hand, made a remarkable effort in collecting those songs and tales. One of such collections can be downloaded from the link beneath here *)
I wrote that " their shamans practised communication with evil spirits by using the Five directions known from the River Lo Map." And to this I have to apologize, I should have written: something like the...
Here is the passage:


lomap.jpg
74 These characters are on the round object used
by Chinese geomancers and are here regarded as
demons.
[ excerpt ** ) ]​

it looks like the shaman refers to something like the LoShu / River Lo map, but two of the compass directions are not the same here...

_______________________________________________


*) From: https://www.pdfdrive.com/the-tribal-songs-and-tales-of-the-chuan-miao-d174846064.html

**) % "Making a Container (719)" pdf
 

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surnevs

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Or more importantly (for me) ... will they help me better understand how I can make use of these cryptic phrases in my Yi practice?

Not as far I have reached until now. I haven't yet found texts in their songs/rituals/tales that can really shed light on what might lay implicit in some phrases in the I Ching ie an example:

Here are several expressions where meaning could lay implicit, the meaning behind a hundred thousand, to climb the nine hills, in Seven days.
Don't ask me what lays implicit behind these expressions, but just to point out that maybe an explanation could be found somewhere in some rituals/tales etc. handed over in these tribal songs and tales referred to above (#89)
I don't know if my research in this will "peter out into the road leading North-East" (to use another phrase)
 

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