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The Hmong, former Miao tribe

Gmulii

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About Chih Yu, a short video

Very interesting topic!Sadly, can't get to reading all of it yet, but I plan to when there is a little more time. So far, however, I started the video, I'm not very good with history, but I do remember that part, so seemed a good idea to post little of it.

As it says same time as the Yellow Emperor... And they fought with each other... I know this, this is where QMDJ originates(one of the 3 supreme systems of Chinese metaphysics).


So here is excerpt of Jack Chius book Ji Men Dun Jia:
Legend has it that:

Literally , it means :
While the Emperor ( Xuan-Yuan ) Huang-Di was blaming himself for not defeating the devious Chi-You after numerous battles , six fairies on clouds of five colors descended from the sky and told the Emperor that they were sent by the Maiden Warrior of the Northern High Sky to deliver the Scrolls of Dun-Jia & Yin-Fu . The scrolls revealed the auspiciousness of Heaven and Earth via the Trigrams . ( The scrolls also) help identify changes of winds , clouds and thus the weather , the eclipses of the Sun and the Moon based upon the order of Yin and Yang , the ascending and descending of stars and hence the wins or losses of events related to mankind . ( The Scrolls revealed ) the technique of handling changes . The Emperor knelt for a long while accepting the Scrolls .

The Emperor then opened the Scrolls and found 3 volumes of the Scrolls of Yin - Fu . The first volume introduced immortality . The second volume described governing of a nation . The third volume outlined the art of war . Dun -Jia ( as in the third volume] was in fact the technique developed and used by the Maiden Warrior of the Northern High Sky . After mastering the methods and techniques from the Scrolls , the Emperor eventually defeated Chi - You .


This is one of the legends regarding Ji Men Dun Jia JMDJ in short) , and is quoted from 《 六陰洞微遁曱真經 》Liu-Yin Dong-Wei Dun-Jia Zhen-Jing or the Authentic Scrolls of Dun -Jia by 趙普ZHAO PU the first Imperial Prime Minister of 宋朝 the SONG Dynasty . The Authentic Scrolls of Dun-Jia is one of the archives in 《 正統道藏 》Zheng-Tong Dao Zang or the Authentic Dao ' s Collections .However , 《 四庫全書 》 , Si-Ku Quan-Shu [ SKQS ) or the Imperial Collections in Four Categories , published in 清朝 the QlNG Dynasty recorded only the book title , but no details of content nor its author .
 
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dfreed

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... excerpt of Jack Chius book Ji Men Dun Jia: 'The first volume introduced immortality . The second volume described governing of a nation . The third volume outlined the art of war ...'
This sounds to me like a myth someone might come up with to justify their control over others.

You know, like "the divine right of Kings", or a circle of evangelicals gathered 'round a former president, telling him that he's God's gift to mankind.
 
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Gmulii

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This sounds to me like a myth someone might come up with to justify their control over others.

You know, like "the divine right of Kings", or a circle of evangelicals gathered 'round a former president, telling him that he's God's gift to mankind.
Only problem is that they have to come up with a system to bring along with the myth.
Lets say the Yellow Emperor hide in the nearby bushes with his generals and Prime Minsiter and said:
-Ahh, the battle with Chi You is not going swell. Now is the time for extra smart moves, of hiding in here and coming up with extra good myth to get back the hopes of the people!Lets think of something believable like 6 fairies coming down on colored clouds. Who would doubt that stuff...
While very smart move, indeed, the only problem is that its very likely someone would notice they didn't actually taught their generals amazing system when they exited the bushes, as the short time of hiding in them is unlikely to have included making up the whole QMDJ.

While historically not of big importance, when we factor in people still use the system today, it gives the impression if the idea was just some reputation boosting for easier leadership, along that seem to have come a lot more important change with the presented system itself.

Its the Yellow Emperor, though, how much reputation boosting he would need...
Yet its not just him. There have been many places in history where one of their legendary generals have said true military leader has to know it, it spans through many dynasties all over the place.

Then we can say all of them wanted to boost their reputation by aligning with the system, connected to the Yellow Emperor, and he did the same back then aligning with the made up story. But at some point it becomes silly, because we practice the system today, we can see how powerful it can be, so the idea then has to include a real system that at some point someone made without anyone else noticing.

Does it bring more credentials to the Yellow Emperor, as chosen from Heaven... Well, they have the "mandate of heaven" idea, so in their view their Emperors were chosen from Heaven by default, not sure they would need more there, but who knows...

As QMDJ is complex, I'm open to the idea it may not have human origin. But may also be a legend, then it would be impressive for the person that made all that and decided to attribute it to fairies...
 
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dfreed

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Only problem is that they have to come up with a system to bring along with the myth.

I do not see any 'problem' here.

First, I have no idea what QMJD is (and I don't want to or need to know at this point). And I am not convinced that it's because of these few lines that someone (or one of the 'ancestors') developed a complex system of 'whatever this is' in response. Nor do I really care if it has human or other origins.

It still feels like how I described: if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck ....
 
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Gmulii

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First, I have no idea what QMJD is (and I don't want to or need to know at this point). I am not convinced that it's because of these few lines that someone developed a complex system of 'whatever this is' in response. Nor do I really care if it has human or other origins.

It still feels like how I described: if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck ....
Well... I would guess the first Prime Minister of the SONG dynasty may feel deeply hurt you are questioning his integrity on the 6 fairies on the colored clouds story
(if the events weren't few thousand years ago, that is).
I can't blame you, though, fairies are generally difficult to swallow even for me.

Yet I can't respond with more then that, as I get the impression you aren't very interested in much of the rest that was mentioned and the credibility of the Prime Minister back then is not well known, at least from me.
 

dfreed

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I can't blame you, though, fairies are generally difficult to shallow even for me ... I get the impression you aren't very interested in much of the rest that was mentioned and the credibility of the Prime Minister ....

You are wanting me to believe in the credibility of the Song dynasty prime minister, and yet you find fairies difficult to swallow. So are you saying parts of this story have credibility for you but other parts don't?

The point is, what you say may be true - or it may be entirely mythical, but I can hold different ideas and truths at the same time - so that what I am saying is also true.

You seem to be turning all this into an either/or, true-or-false quiz of some kind. I am not. And maybe the Song minister was beliving in made up fairy tales as well? Who knows?
 

dfreed

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Lets say the Yellow Emperor hide in the nearby bushes with his generals and Prime Minsiter and said:

Or ... let's say YE is an entirely made-up fairy tale peson, and the prime minister said something about this make-believe being.

After all, we are talking here - at least in part - about MSU - 'making sh_t' up' : the old Hmong and Chinese myths, stories, songs ....
 
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surnevs

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- being the one who started this thread I must confess that I wasn't able to follow these last postings.
Gmulii: Chih Yu is part of it here as are also Huang-Di, Fu Hsi and others. Thank You for the link You gave. Right now I'm more into "surfing through" the Myths, Tales and Songs handed down from this Hmong tribe ('s). When times are given I'll hopefully remember to turn back to this view of it that You gave here.
 

surnevs

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An update: Having passed the 70 and having much to do, a job among other doings, I must confess that I have had to surf through the books I recently ordered home from the library and it feels frustrating not to have enough time to read each of those books from start to end, and they should be delivered back to the library - of course.
They are old books and typical without an index to look up special words or subjects to narrow my search and leave behind what's unnecessary. Only one of those books *) seems to be within the frame possible for me to search through and it's moreover loyal to the Hmong's own story as told by themselves.
*) The tribal songs and tales of the Ch'uan Miao, collected by David Crockett Graham, 1978
 
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surnevs

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I've now searched the last book available to me (for now) without finding any clues concerning what I was searching for so:
Thank You to all of You who gave me a helping hand here in one or another way.
I haven't found the Hmong's using the I Ching as we know it nor any bits of phrases in their folktales/songs/rituals that could clarify some cryptic passages in the received text.
(If anything should show up concerning this I'll hopefully be able to return here)
 

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