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The melons of 44.5

heylise

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View attachment 421 View attachment 422
In 44.5 Wilhelm has:
A melon covered with willow leaves.
Hidden lines.
Then it drops down to one from heaven.

Today I went to the narrow piece of land between our barn and the ditch. It is green, luscious growth, all over green. Even the ditch itself is covered entirely with duckweed. Somehow a pumpkin seed must have fallen there, so now everywhere between the reeds and other plants are big pumpkin leaves.
But when I looked in between all those plants, there was a big yellow pumpkin. Tonight we eat pumpkin soup!
Those leaves which cover the melon of 44.5 might simply be the plants, willow, the kind they use for making baskets, first they hide the melon, then it is carried in a basket of the same twigs. And when you discover that big melon or pumpkin there, totally unexpected, it sure is a gift which seems like fallen from heaven.

LiSe
 
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bruce_g

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"Carry and treat the future heir with respect - Heaven made it. Every creative action or thought should be handled this way. They may look easy but creativity grows only when everything is right: the seed, the soil, the season. It needs the completeness of nature. It can not be summoned when it is absent."

:bows:

Brad's "Restraint is displayed" is also interesting, in context with the photos, as well as his "restraint of concentration and integrity". Though I do wonder if "restraint" might also be translated: "covering"?

Btw, I always thought the Halloween bunny left the pumpkins. :confused:
 

heylise

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Have been looking at my translation, and it is kind of grey. After this chance meeting with the pumpkin the meaning of this line is much more alive to me. So I changed it, still following the Chinese:
Melon enwrapped in willow. A hidden creation descended from heaven.

Both melon and willow have connections with sexuality and love. The character 'enwrapping' is probably a picture of a womb...
The one I translate as 'creation' is a chapter of a book, piece of music, any part of a creation which is at the same time complete in itself.

LiSe
 
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lightofreason

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Both melon and willow have connections with sexuality and love. The character 'enwrapping' is probably a picture of a womb...
The one I translate as 'creation' is a chapter of a book, piece of music, any part of a creation which is at the same time complete in itself.

LiSe

they are not free of the meaning of the line position where that position is controlled by hexagram 08. 08 covers a passive attraction as the ruler's court attracts the people - it is unconditional attraction when compared to its associate, hex 20.

For 08 Water in upper covers control, earth in lower covers devotion to another/others and so "with/from devotion comes control". Devotion to the ruler is a form of control by the ruler - foster the devotion and you control the people impicitly, by just being there.

Map that to 55 and we have the 08-ness of 55 is expresssed by analogy to 49 and so revelation, to unmask. Thus the nature of the ruler is through revelation (which is what you did to see the pumpkin, draw back the weeds etc to see what is beneath - the yellow-ish of the court?). the abundance of 55 means things get covered up, there are weeds competiting with flowers (thieves with the good etc) and so through devotion to the ruler we push aside the weeds to reveal the ruler hidden. The sign of the ruler, what was a passive attraction (08-ness) for you was in the type of leaves present that indicated an interest of something of value present - in need of revelation.

Chris.
 

charly

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... following the Chinese:
Melon enwrapped in willow. A hidden creation descended from heaven.
Both melon and willow have connections with sexuality and love. The character 'enwrapping' is probably a picture of a womb...

LiSe:

Both translation and connections make much sense in the whole hexagram context.
I have made some searchings looking for additional stuff and I find two:

1) etymology:
bao1 ... A person leaning over and holding or covering an object perhaps a baby
From Sears' ChineseEtymology

2) Maybe a mother like this?
Leaning over her little baby.

Img249225043.jpg


THE POWERFUL GIRL !!!
More White Tigress photos at:
http://learning.sohu.com/20070405/n249225040.shtml

I always think that the GOU advice of «not marrying such a gir» was a fake advice.
I like more something as:

姤 gou4: Wow!!! (1)
女 nu3 壯 zhuang4: Girl is powerful
勿 wu4 用 yong4: don't use
取 qu3 女 nu3: to force girls (2)

Don't you agree?:bows:

Yours,

Charly

-------------------------------------
(1) like dog's barking exclamation .
(2) freely inspired from Harmen
 
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midaughter

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Coffee Can Crockpot Pumpkin Pudding

1 1/2 cups flour
1 1/2 teas soda
1/4 teas salt
1 cup sugar
cinnamon, garam masala (opt)
nutmeg, pumpkin pie spice
to taste

1 egg
1 can pumpkin
1 cup milk or buttermilk
1 tablespoon vinegar
(If not using buttermilk)

Sift dry ingredients, add wet ingredients and mix.
Grease and flour a coffee can and add mixture
cover with foil and place on a trivet in a crock
pot with 2 cups of hot water surrounding coffee can.

Cover coffee can with foil and cook 4-5 hours on high.


Slow Cooker Pumpkin Bread
1 cup all-purpose flour
1 1/2 tsp baking powder
1 tsp pumpkin pie spice
1/2 cup brown sugar, firmly packed
2 Tb vegetable oil
2 eggs
1/2 cup pumpkin (canned)
4 Tb raisins or dried currants, finely chopped
In small bowl combine flour, baking powder and pumpkin pie spice; set aside.
In med. mixing bowl combine brown sugar and oil; beat till well combined. Beat in eggs. Add pumpkin; mix well. Add flour mixture. Beat just until combined. Stir in raisins.

Pour pumpkin mixture into 2 well-greased and floured 1/2-pint straight-sided canning jars. Cover jars tightly with greased foil. Place a piece of crumpled foil in 3-1/2 or 4 qt. crockery cooker with liner in place. Place jars atop crumpled foil.
 

Sparhawk

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Trust a fisherwoman to provide a recipe every time she sees the smallest prompting hint... :rofl:
 

heylise

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姤 gou4: Wow!!! (1)
女 nu3 壯 zhuang4: Girl is powerful
勿 wu4 用 yong4: don't use
取 qu3 女 nu3: to force girls (2)

Don't you agree?:bows:

I have in my translation:
The Lady Ancestress:
power.
Do not grab the woman.

So I agree with yours, even though the words are a bit different.

I like this hexagram a lot. Of course it can be awful, dangerous, scary, but every hexagram can be awful, dangerous, scary. Don't underestimate hexagrams like 11 and 14. If you go against the advice, which means against your dao, even 11 and 14 can bring very bad fortune.

It is like sex, many tell you it is BAD, many others tell you it is GOOD, but almost the entire population practices it. So even to the ones who think it is bad it seems to be very interesting. Same with 44.

LiSe
 
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bruce_g

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So much is made of the bad woman and the poor man in this hexagram, but lest we forget, if good women interested him he wouldn't be in that predicament in the first place.
 

Sparhawk

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So much is made of the bad woman and the poor man in this hexagram, but lest we forget, if good women interested him he wouldn't be in that predicament in the first place.

Which goes on to show that we men are in a lower link in the food chain and the evolution ladder... :D
 
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bruce_g

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Which goes on to show that we men are in a lower link in the food chain and the evolution ladder... :D

You know what makes this especially interesting, at least to me? The man in this case is heaven. Heaven must like his women naughty.
 
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bruce_g

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naugh·ty

[14th century. Literally "having naught, poor"] ----Now this is also interesting (to me). Having naught as in the empty bowl, Dao. Passion in man is generated by the openness of woman, and openness is a matter of emptiness. The seeds within the melon are God's children, made possible by her availability and readiness to receive. What a slut!
 

charly

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.. we men are in a lower link in the food chain and the evolution ladder... :D

Hola, Luis:

Of course, we are, and early chinese know it.

They have a floklore about how to overcome male weakness, given that they think women were more powerful than men (1), Wilhelm knews it, also Jung and Baynes.

This is the reason why I believe that there is a hidden DOG (gou) in H.44.
A dog that barks (2).

Un abrazo,

Charly

------------------------------------------------
(1) Siberians (not far from chinese people) believe that women are natural shamans meanwhile men must do a great effort to become a shaman, they recquired a most hard initiation ritual. In spiritual powers women are naturally stronger than men. Of course, they are primitives.

(2) Maybe 姤 stands for DOG that sounds similar. A dog barking is like a WARNING:
«be alert, there are hidden mines!», hidden meanings.
 
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bruce_g

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Also interesting, Charly.

That's what I love most about 44 (and the Dao): it's always a creative work in progress; not something you can easily hold.
 

charly

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... Passion in man is generated by the openness of woman, and openness is a matter of emptiness. The seeds within the melon are God's children ...

Hi, Bruce:

Are you saying that melons are God's gifts? Men ever look for God gifts.

The begining sounds to me like LaoZi:

L'esprit de la vallée ne meurt pas; on láppelle la femelle mysteriéuse. La porte de la femelle mysteriéuse s'apelle la racine du ciel et de la terre. Il est éternel et semble exister. Si l'on fait usage on n'eprouve aucun fatigue.
from a french XIX-century translation (1)

From a less philosophical point of view, sometimes, some guys can help God in his job using his hand (2).

Yours,


Charly

-----------------------------------------------------
(1) Maybe I mistake the quote?
(2) Remember Diego Maradona at Mexico:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Maradonahand3.jpg
 

Sparhawk

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Hola, Luis:

Of course, we are, and early chinese know it.

They have a floklore about how to overcome male weakness, given that they think women were more powerful than men (1), Wilhelm knews it, also Jung and Baynes.

Hola Charly,

You know what? I wish we could go back to some kind of matriarchal culture. Passion, love, emotion and pragmatism, wrapped in rose smelling silk and hidden in a warm bosom. If anything, our wars would be local and much smaller... :D

Un abrazo,
 
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bruce_g

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Hi, Bruce:

Are you saying that melons are God's gifts?

The seeds, Charly, are God's children - is what I'm saying. All seeds, all creative beginnings.

Maybe "yang" or "creative" is more appealing to you than God or spirit. That works just as well.
 

Sparhawk

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Well, I'll take the melons. They are already sweet and ready to eat. Seeds are too young and prone to abuse by unscrupulous philosophers that believe to know what they'll look like when they grow up... :D

Just being my contrarian self... :D
 

charly

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... I'll take the melons... already sweet and ready to eat. Seeds are too young ...

Luis:

You do well not eating the seeds.
As by chinese folklore, many persons become pregnant when eating unusual things.
Seeds are almost as dangerous as big-toe footprints.

Yours,


Charly
 
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bruce_g

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Way I see it, we are a reproduction of production, a re-creation of creation. The condition that created us, we create in turn: beginning on the subtle plain and manifesting in the physical plain, until we again return to the subtle. And on and on.
 

charly

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Way I see it, we are a reproduction of production, a re-creation of creation. The condition that created us, we create in turn: beginning on the subtle plain and manifesting in the physical plain, until we again return to the subtle. And on and on.

Bruce:

You'r right, but oscillations between fun and earnest are almost inevitable due to the long date cultural censorship.

People wisdom never dies, it continuously speaks by hidden means, stories, metaphors, secret keys, jokes..., marvelous doors to repressed truths.

... It is only a joke, but perhaps not a bad one.»
S.Freud in a letter to Jones about The Moses of Michelangelo

True meaning resides in jokes.

Yours,


Charly
 

charly

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... I wish we could go back to some kind of matriarchal culture. ...

Luis:

I believe that H.44 GOU speaks from a patriarchal point of view, it speaks mostly for men:

May be GOU means...

1) Princess or Ancestral Lady,
2) Dog (male dog, I think),
3) Meeting,
4) Copulating ...

Now, look at 44.6, if GOU means DOG, we could translate:

Dog's horn ! (1)
Unpleasant, no wrong.

For me it makes better sense that, say...

The Ancestral Lady's horn...​

Striking image, very rude.

and...

Meeting his horn​

What want it to mean? may be a horn = nothing ? (2)

Meeting nothing!
To copulate? Nothing!​


44284429v1_240x240_Front.jpg

from: http://www.cafepress.com/buy/retro/...9/id_10640240/pNo_44284429/opt_/fpt_/c_/hlv_t

WOMAN POWER! (3)

In spanish there are some meaningful coincidences, in english I don't know.
No joke, what do you think about it?:eek:uch:

Un abrazo,


Chary
--------------------------------------------------------
(1) in spanish «caray!», etc. = exclamation = damned!
(2) in spanish «un cuerno» = «minga» = «nada» = nothing!?
(3) in spanish «hacerle un corte de manga» means to frustrate someone, but to make the gesture means «f... you»
 
B

bruce_g

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Bruce:

You'r right, but oscillations between fun and earnest are almost inevitable due to the long date cultural censorship.

People wisdom never dies, it continuously speaks by hidden means, stories, metaphors, secret keys, jokes..., marvelous doors to repressed truths.



True meaning resides in jokes.

Yours,


Charly

Charly, I think we've had a communication meltdown. lol

Re-creation, not recreation.

I have no clue as to the value or virtue of people wisdom. Sometimes it seems godlike, and other times like a pile of rubbish. Nature wisdom or earth wisdom is something I can always count on.
 

charly

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...I think we've had a communication meltdown. lol
Re-creation, not recreation.
I have no clue as to the value or virtue of people wisdom. Sometimes it seems godlike, and other times like a pile of rubbish. Nature wisdom or earth wisdom is something I can always count on.

Bruce:

I'm afraid I had misundestood you, maybe due to my poor english.

Recreation is a seriuous thing and a big business, but we are speaking of another thing.

I made no comments about the value of people wisdom, I only said that never dies.
«Nobody's perfect» (1), people use to be wrong, but when an opinion is repressed, it issues under another skin. Among others, uder the skin of jokes.

Do you agree that GOU hexagram may had been censored due to moral or political reasons?

Most readers (as, I believe, LiSe, Wu Jing-Nuan) perceive hidden cultural allusions, like matriarchal remnants, sexual folkways, etc. concealed by the confucian interpreters. Perhaps, tha's the reason why, centuries after, jokes emerge.

Another question: if not people, who knows «nature wisdom / earth wisdom»?
Our understanding isn't too small to cover that wisdom?

Yours,

Charly

--------------------------------------------------------
(1) from thea Billy Wilder's film «Some Like it Hot»
USA 1959. Regie: Billy Wilder. Mit Tony Curtis, Jack Lemmon, Marilyn Monroe, Joe E. Brown, George Raft. 119 min. OmU.
"Nobody's perfect!" Der letzte Satz dieses Billy-Wilder-Klassikers wurde selbst zum Klassiker. Some Like It Hot ist eine Komödie der Verwandlung & Travestie - natürlich was die Handlung betrifft, aber auch, weil er das Produkt und zugleich die treffsichere Parodie anderer Filme, "Scarface" und "Public Enemy" etwa, darstellt - und eines ganzen Genres, des Gangsterfilms. Marilyn Monroe wiederum interpretiert hier als Sugar Kane jenen Song, den man sich ohne sie gar nicht mehr vorstellen kann: "I wanna be loved by you".
by: http://images.google.com.ar/imgres?...vnum=100&um=1&hl=es&newwindow=1&safe=off&sa=N
 
B

bruce_g

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I made no comments about the value of people wisdom, I only said that never dies.
«Nobody's perfect» (1), people use to be wrong, but when an opinion is repressed, it issues under another skin. Among others, uder the skin of jokes.

Hi, Charly. I wasn't rebutting what you'd said, just rambling my own thoughts on wisdom. More on that...

Do you agree that GOU hexagram may had been censored due to moral or political reasons?

Yes, I do.

Most readers (as, I believe, LiSe, Wu Jing-Nuan) perceive hidden cultural allusions, like matriarchal remnants, sexual folkways, etc. concealed by the confucian interpreters. Perhaps, tha's the reason why, centuries after, jokes emerge.

Yes. Our mores are only our mores, as I see it. But, yes, it has and does shape our view of woman. Woman's own view of woman is just as lost in the mores. We're out of touch, Charly. It isn't natural the way we as a culture carry on with morality.

And while the preacher preaches the good news to all men from the pulpit, women are brutalized on television for sake of entertainment. It's ain't natural, Charly.

Another question: if not people, who knows «nature wisdom / earth wisdom»?
Our understanding isn't too small to cover that wisdom?

Well, people know about earth wisdom, but I don't think many consider it as wisdom. Like the archaeologist I listened to the other night, explaining how termites have no intelligence, though they build 6 foot high housing units, complete with natural air conditioning, along with everything they need to survive as a species. I couldn't believe my ears. The reason they possess no intelligence, he said, is because they don't think about the design before they build it, they just build it. But what the termite does sounds like earth wisdom to me. 2.2 - Without skills there will be harvest.
 

Sparhawk

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Hola Charly,

Actually, gou4 also means "good" and "excellent". The character is composed by 女 and 后, the first one obviously is a woman, the second one means, among a few other things, "behind," "back," "rear," "after," "later," "empress or queen," and "sovereign or ruler". It depicts a person leaning and speaking words, as in "giving orders."

Together, is not a character that is used much in colloquial Chinese but it means what I said above, besides "to pair of" (think in the Spanish "juntarse" o "reunirse") and "to copulate."

Not sure were you get the meaning for "dog" but is not in any of my dictionaries. Let me know where to look for that meaning.

As for the actual meaning in a phrase, well, there are so many things that can be pulled together and parsed in different ways... :) I'm not expert but It is my belief, more of a feeling than an actual belief, that the lack of parsing in classical Chinese is a purposeful event meant to give the reader the opportunity to interpret a reading circumstantially and contextually. It is done with poetry and it has a perfect home in a classic like the Yi Jing.

Un abrazo,
 

heylise

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The old picture of gou looks like this:
View attachment 433
The woman at left has probably been added later. At right a woman giving birth: producing the one who will continue the lineage, "after, behind, later".

LiSe
 

midaughter

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I have had a once-in-a-lifetime experience with 44:5, a nasty court case and it was headed for disaster. I looked at Ni and he said you have but one chance and one chance only (represented by this line) to change the outcome. I missed it by a mile but the chance was there. Every bad hexagram has a favorable line usually and vice versa. 44:5 is the good line in this hexagram, how awful. Iise makes it a bit palatable with the lovely pumpkin.
 

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