Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
starting to use the iching, and thinking over and over about its ways, i came up with a question. probably it is a question that every beginner have to deal with. would like to share with you and to listen to your opinions.
If a person believes in the capability of Iching to be 'tuned' with the order of all things, basically accepts the principle of sincronicity. Every event happing in the real world is connected and related. According to this principle, if i toss only one coin, expecting to receive either a Yin or a Yang, wouldnt this toss be also a very basic and simple question to the oracle, in the easiest formulation? for example if i want to ask an oracle a question that needs a YES/NO answer, wouldnt it be sufficient to toss a coin and then interpreting the answer according to the result (Yin or Yang)
I guess the next step of attributing the value of yes to yang and no to yin would be too simple, but still, in terms of principle, should be working....what do you think?
trojan: if a person does not accept the principle of sincronicity, yet consults the oracle using YiChing, which other principle is using?
I still see that reading the yiching can be at any moment fruitful, wise and inspiring, but in this way (ignoring the sincronicity) it would mean to use the toss of the coins as a random sistem to browse the book. I dont see anything wrong with that, but i also dont see anything to do with a question to the oracle, or a divination at all.
Tossing a coin without using ICHING is basically questioning the oracle looking for a direct dialogue with the oracle itself. The Yiching is not the oracle in my opinion, but more similar to a map built with thousand years of wiseness and perfection, that you can use to interface with the oracle.
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I do find the Yi can give me yes/no answers it just gives more besides, like 'no because' or 'yes because' or 'no but/yes but'. If i get 33 for "shall i go to x" i take it broadly as a no but i see it as a no for certain reasons
I more agree with the point of view that things are never black or white. thus never yin or yang. yet...since the oracle is able to see the connections that we miss to see....asking a direct question should be still a possibility.
there are matters that are definitely black or white...
there are matters that are definitely black or white...
my question is not about the iching as a book, but rather the principles, the beliefs that see the iching as a sistem of divination.
When we toss the coins and we look for answers in the iching, we are not asking the book. the book is not an entity, nor there is an entity behind it.
the entity or the sincronicity or the tao or the oracle (all of these names point at the same concept) exists beyond the book, existed before the iching was written and will exist after there will be no man in the earth alive to open the book.
trojan...i didnt write about tossing a coin and asking iching for a yes no answer.
i said that wether u toss 3 coins and look for an hex in the iching book, or wether you toss 1 coin for a Y/N answer, you are still tossing coins, and attributing a certain value of meaning to the result of the toss.this process of attributing a value, either via iching either via any other way, is a dialogue with the oracle.
trojan: i found that we have two different points of view.
let me tell u more about mine:
me, you, the book iching and the clouds as you say 'come from the same source'
thus whatever are the results of any form of divination, they do come respond to the same 'order'.
you say "By "the oracle" i thought you meant the Yi Jing " . in this i feel that there is a very wrong assumption, as the Iching is not an oracle. the oracle is the source, the iching is a device.
now , i assume that wathever tool for questiong the oracle one can use, the source should always be the same (at least from the prespective of someone that uses iching) because the iching as an art of divination implies that everything is connected.
what i believe is that iching is the most refined and consistent (as far as i know) tool to be used for questioning the oracle.
if i toss a coin for a Y/N answer i basically use the most simple and not sophisticated way ever used in the history of civilization.
to give a metaphor tossing one coin its like using a piece of glass randomly collected somewhere and using it as a microscope: the result will be surely lame...the sight blurred and unclear, and for sure you wont be able to have a clear sight of what you were supposed to investigate.
on the other side using iching is like using the most advanced technological microscope that humanity was ever able to produce. in this case the sight will be clear .
but the object you are watching, and its nature doesnt change. you just have different layer of perception.
I'm aware that much of the western use of the Yijing preach -like a dogma- "don't ask yes/no questions"
But what if the yijing actually answers yes/no questions?
What if, when someone ask "will I recieve the money" you say "you will" and it happens that he/she recieve the money
What if, someone asked "will X be fine with the surgery" and you say "he will be ok", and then the surgery is a success?
What if the statement "there is no reality in yes/no" contradicts reality?
Best wishes
I've asked myself the same question on many occasions, Robibiro. Whatever one wishes to call the principle which makes the Yi oracle function as an oracle, or any other oracle function as an oracle, it would seem to reason that a simple single coin toss could answer those questions which could be answered with a simple yes or no with the same reliability.
Maybe the answer has to do with confidence. That is, if one acts upon yes or no as though it is certain, then perhaps the single toss of a single coin can operate reliably. I don't have that confidence, for whatever reason. Yet, logically, it seems I should.
i still believe that if one person uses the iching as a way to divination, the conscious methapisical attitude of that person should asssume that the iching methapisical basis should be tuned to all the other beings and things in the world.
otherwise how could the iching be able to give you consistent answers about other issues that do not share the same methapisic basis?
Will it rain today? is a simple yes or no question.
Will I be offered the job? is also a yes or no question.
Many yes/no questions without gray or shades of possibilities and potentials.
I too agree with Dora's reasoning, but also with Jesed's comments.
There is no hexagram, trigram, line pair or line value for either Yes or No. The only problem with asking Yes/No questions is that there isn't a simple hexagram oracle that clearly says Yes, No or Yes, But.
Talking about assumptions. The above statement is true only when you use the text added to the hexagrams.There is no hexagram, trigram, line pair or line value for either Yes or No.
Talking about assumptions. The above statement is true only when you use the text added to the hexagrams.
But there is a whole other way to read the hexagrams without the text. In that other way, there are 10 hexagrams for NO, and 8 hexagrams for YES when the question is a yes/no question.
Best wishes
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).