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fkegan

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The King Wen Sequence is an elegant certainty not a warped probability...

Consequently, based on the studies, it is highly probable that:
(11) The sequence of the hexagrams known in our days and considered as traditional is derived from the Yi-globe. This sequence is the one-dimensional, distorted variant of the Yi-globe; however, it embraces its elements in a latent form...

If it is supposed that the above described assumption aiming at the origin of the traditional, canonical sequence is correct, it makes further guessing needless in respect to the possible connotations implied in the sequence of the hexagrams. It seems that the meaning of the hexagrams as a whole lies not in their sequence but in the archetypal image, the Yi-globe. That is to say, the sequence itself is nothing but the simplified, one-dimensional variant of the Yi-globe. This variant is without space and time; the interrelations of the hexagrams are hardly recognizable. Moreover, the changes occurred in it in the course of time almost completely annihilated the little information that remained. Any other deduction made on the basis of this sequence can only lead astray.
[from your link cited, though actually just another bald conclusory allegation of apriori assumptions of no logical import or weight.]

Hi Lienshan,
As you only see the older Shang perspective and Joe only sees his own very 20th century European geographical Yi-Globe explanation there is a tendency for folks to insist there can not really, really be any logic to the King Wen Sequence since they don't know anything about it. However, no one's ignorance is dispositive of anything. Not Legge's or yours or Joe's, etc. To the pure all things are pure and their purity is usually founded upon the sharp rocks of willful ignorance and ignoring other perspectives which would require opening your eyes, dumping out the big cup of stale tea you treasure from your teachers and thinking a bit.

The King Wen Sequence is logical, elegant and ultimately beautiful in its philosophical depth and sophistication to those blessed few of us who know its context and simple principles. It is clearly based in the philosophical principles underlying the Tai Ji and the simple triangle of rows of 1+2+3+4 dots that total 10 dots which is the fundamental set, not of any modern decimal system but rather the ancient decad system build upon the four great philosophical perspectives of the Monad, Dyad, Triad and Tetrad. Noted in my last post.
But there is no clearly explanation of the received division of the sequence in two chapters?
The first half is the simple statement often found in Chinese philosophy of the three realms of the Earth, human society and Divine principle described in their archetypal decads or sets of 10, also important in traditional Chinese numbering. The possible hexagrams given a 6-place Yin matrix with Yang lines available comes to 64, this requires a second half or chapter containing the remaining three decads or sets of 10 and the extra four cardinal hexagrams by their structure and import. Try reading my newly online and edited Dyad page [http://www.stars-n-dice.com/dyad.html ] since clearly the whole of my Flux Tome pages and my various novel perspectives is apparently a bridge too far for you.

Though I admire your dogged persistence in the vain exercise to deny superior logic and demonstration in the peculiar effort to maintain your own gyroscopic momentum, in the final analysis: :lalala: and:brickwall: even combined with :pompom::pompom: or:duh: :stir: aren't arguments or rebuttals but just blind avoidance of simple logic as plain as the noses upon your faces--but then without a mirror or other technological intervention only a mystical supposition.:deadhorse: and Q.E.D.:bows:
So, in conclusion :p:

Cheers:),

Frank
 
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dryjoe

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The King Wen sequence is expressing another point of view than the Yi-globe sequence.
Saying that the hexagrams of the King Wen sequence are 'misplaced' is a subjective statesment.
The main difference between the two sequences is, that the hexagrampairs 27-28 and 61-62 are important and the hexagrampairs 51-52 and 57-58 not important in the King Wen sequence, while the opposite is true in the Yi-globe sequence. The main theme of the King Wen sequence is to underline a 'logic order' of the trigrams, Heaven-Earth-Water-Fire, while the main theme of the Yi-globe sequence is a 'logic order' of all hexagrams with respect to the number of yang-lines.
The order of the two hexagrams in each pair has a meaning in the King Wen sequence.
Does the order of the two hexagrams in each pair have a meaning in the Yi-globe sequence?
E.g. Level V: 9-10, 14-13, 43-44
E.g. Level I: 7-8, 15-16, 24-23
Thanks for the remarks referring to the main points of the Yi-globe. I'll take one sentence after the other and try to give you adequate answers.

1.) 'The King Wen sequence is expressing another point of view than the Yi-globe sequence.'
It is quite true; I agree.
The King Wen's sequence (KWS) has no definite point of view or it is not known yet. Even the existence of an express point of view is questionable. (Was it King Wen who created this sequence? Had he any intention to include general ideas in it? Have the sequence remained unaltered during the next millenia?) There is a lot of guesswork on this subject, based on the authors' personal, often biased, opinion. It follows from the diversity of the opinions that only one of them (if any) can be true; but who can tell which one is that one?
The Yi-globe expresses the point of view of the Yijing: the unity and the complexity of the Universe. This statement is illustrated by the spherical form, the positions of the cardinal hexagrams, the embedded traditional symbols, etc.
2.) 'Saying that the hexagrams of the King Wen sequence are 'misplaced' is a subjective statement.'
It is true again, to a certain extent.
For one thing, saying that the hexagrams in the KWS have been on the same place in the course of the last three thousand years is a subjective statement too. There are some indications to the misplacement of the hexagrams during this time; my arguments are included in the manuscript.
As regards the Yi-globe, I summarize here a part of my observations shortly, and from another point of view:
a) All the 12 combinations of the Qian and the Kun trigrams with each other and with the Li and the Kan trigrams are placed along the main circle of East-West on the Yi-globe. In the KWS they stand at the 1-2, 35-36, 5-6, 7-8, 13-14, and 11-12 places.
b) The 12 sovereign (calendar, xiaoxigua) hexagrams form the Sun-line on the Yi-globe. In the KWS they stand at the 19-20, 23-24, 33-34, and 43-44 places (and on the 1-2 and 11-12, of course).
c) In the hexagrams of the symmetrical pair of the Sun-line, the trigrams are in reversed order. In the KWS they are at the 15-16, 25-26, 9-10, and 45-46 places.
Can it be a mere chance, that if the four boldface hexagram pairs (and still two, not shown up here) moved to the place of each other in the KWS, the three main lines of the Yi-globe would have the following ordinal numbers there:
- the main circle of E-W: 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8, 9-10, 11-12
- the Sun-line: 13-14, 23-24, 33-34, 43-44
- the pair of the Sun-line: 15-16, 25-26, 35-36, 45-46?
I think that such a close relation between the two arrangements can't be simply accidental. In this case my supposition is not without any basis and not entirely subjective.
3.) 'The main difference between the two sequences is, that the hexagram pairs 27-28 and 61-62 are important and the hexagram pairs 51-52 and 57-58 not important in the King Wen sequence, while the opposite is true in the Yi-globe sequence.'
Your statement is not quite clear for me. How do you classify the hexagrams according to importance? I think the main difference between these arrangements lies much deeper than the location of these hexagrams.
By the way, the pairs 27-28 and 61-62 are placed on the main circle of N-S on the Yi-globe, and they are the only hexagrams there. It is rather a privileged place for them.
4.) 'The main theme of the King Wen sequence is to underline a 'logic order' of the trigrams, Heaven-Earth-Water-Fire, while the main theme of the Yi-globe sequence is a 'logic order' of all hexagrams with respect to the number of yang-lines.'
As regards the main theme of the KWS, I can't speak to it.
As to the Yi-globe:
'Heaven is high, the earth is low.'
'The Receptive is the earth; therefore it is called the mother. In the trigram of the Arousing she seeks for the first time the power of the male and receives a son. Therefore the Arousing is called the eldest son. In the trigram of the Gentle the male seeks for the first time the power of the female and receives a daughter. Therefore the Gentle is called the eldest daughter.' and so on.
If the 'logic order' means following these Yijing principles, I accept the half of your sentence, because what I have made was the illustration and the extension of these principles to the hexagrams. Of course, this was not made without respect to the number of the yang lines. In this case the result of the two kinds of order, the process of the Creation and the logic method, coincide with each other. Maybe it is a mere chance, or maybe it is according to the law of nature.
5.) 'Does the order of the two hexagrams in each pair have a meaning in the Yi-globe sequence?'
The hexagrams in the Yi-globe are arranged in three dimensions and not in a successive order; thus, they don't have and can't have ordinal numbers. Consequently, speaking of the order of the individual hexagrams in a pair makes no sense. The numbers on the pictures of the Yi-globe are temporary signs only, independent from the globe; their only role is to remind the readers of the name of the given hexagram.
6.) 'There is no clearly explanation of the received division of the sequence in two chapters?' (From the next post.)
The partition of the hexagrams would have been meaningless in the Yi-globe. It could have been made only in a lineal sequence which is not the question of the Yi-globe.
Best regards, Joe
 

dryjoe

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Revolving Yi-globe

In June we exchanged some posts with lienshan and fkegan on the subject of paths of changes on the Yi-globe. In that time I prepared some pictures on my site for the illustration of these movements.

Since then Chris Willmot has made a revolving Yi-globe which can be turned away by 10, 30, or 90 degrees, bringing the required hexagram to the foreground, and showing the directly connected (being at one bit distance) hexagrams conveniently. Besides, this globe has some other functions that help the orientation among the hexagrams and the oracles.

Thanks for the excellent work, Chris!:bows:
Joe
 

fkegan

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King Wen Sequence not just sets of 10 also two parts...

Hi Joe,

You and Chris have put together lovely computer illustrations.

There is just one detail of the King Wen Sequence that you neglect and which goes a long way to explain the simple logic of its origin.

Not only are the 64 hexagrams arranged in even-odd pairs by their line structure; but also, the whole set of 64 is arranged into two parts, the first of 30 and the second of the remaining 34. This detail is particularly absent in the 8 x 8 arrangement.

Generally, the folks who think of the KWS as the 8x8 chessboard arrangement are the most likely to fall into the oversimplification that only the pairs exist. It would be like reading poetry solely by its rhyme scheme and using a variant of the poem written to highlight the rhymes and ignore the meaning.

Taking the King Wen Sequence by its two parts, the first is 30 hexagrams or 3 sets of 10.

Much of Chinese philosophy is organized upon the notion that there are three major realms--the Earth, Human Society, and Divine Heaven. The ideogram for King is explained as 3 horizontal strokes for these three realms and a single vertical stroke for the King who must integrate them all.

I won't bore you with the rest, however, any explanation of the KWS needs to account for the 3 realms of the Chinese Universe more than focusing upon the details of the line structure.

What, I believe, was the big innovation of the King Wen Sequence was that it raised the 64 possible hexagrams from earlier arrangements based upon line structure to a totally new level that established the entire set as the total entity.

Within this new entity of the Chou Yi a number of further divisions and considerations became possible and the old perspectives were also honored:

Each hexagram can be viewed as paired with its opposite by tumbling or moving all lines. The 'rhyme scheme' of the Yi.
Each hexagram can be analyzed in terms of its trigrams or lines as was the prime focus in earlier Shang perspectives. Now they give details of meaning and analysis.
Each hexagram could also be seen as an ordinal member of its set of 10, which is its KWS number in the Chinese notation of two crossed strokes for set of 10 and then the digits 1 through 10. The relationship between all hexagrams numbered first or sixth in their set could be highlighted.

The second part is divided again into 30 hexagrams (from the individual perspective) and a final 4 hexagrams which express abstract or universal symbols clearly visible in their line structure.

The Shang perspective of individual lines and trigrams and hexagram pairs remained very strong in divination circles even up to the present day. Noticing the larger perspective has apparently been hidden in plain sight all these centuries.

The Confucian era brought the innovation of connecting the two types of lines to his spiritual doctrine of proper relations between the clearly powerful Yang types and the outwardly submissive yet still quite powerful Yin types. Still within the overall understanding of lines as the heart of the I Ching and its meaning.

Hopefully, at some time in this new millennium the larger perspective will dawn on folks. I am trying to think how to illustrate my perspective better than just talking about decads and a triangle of 10 dots and the equation 1+2+3+4 =10.

A larger perspective is a philosophical question, though putting the hexagrams by line structure upon a modern Planet Earth globe is an appropriate expression of current computer ideology.

Your views and beliefs are well expressed in your Yi-globe and further delightfully animated in Chris' work.
Congratulations,

Frank Kegan
 
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dryjoe

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Hi Frank,

I have read your post, and found what I had known already from your other writings. I cannot discuss with you about it, because we stand on quite different grounds.

Hi Joe,
...
What, I believe, was the big innovation of the King Wen Sequence was that it raised the 64 possible hexagrams from earlier arrangements based upon line structure to a totally new level that established the entire set as the total entity.
...
Frank Kegan
You believe in the King Wen's sequence, in the ideas of Gia-fu, and a lot of other things. As for me, I arrived to the Yi-globe on the way of reasoning, starting from premises, using arguments, and getting a conclusion. If you would oppose this conclusion in essentials, you had to find new arguments or to consider my arguments as invalid. Your belief does not touch the Yi-globe, and vice versa. The utmost we can do to have respect for the views of each other. I have. :bows:

Best regards: Joe
 

fkegan

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Hi Joe,

My apologies for using the term "believe" instead of emphasizing my background in Chemistry and academic history.

It is your belief that the ancient Yi must have been based upon a contemporary view of the Planet Earth Globe that I reason to be impossible. The ideas about the global which have only entered Western philosophy of late with the attempts to escape from the flat earth mentality of the medieval European experience don't seem to have been all that important in Chinese philosophy at any time.

In the Chinese language and thought and philosophy relationships are important. The relationship between sunshine and Planet Earth topography that creates the essentials of the water cycle and supports all life and activity is big to the Chinese. The West ignores that preferring to BELIEVE they only need to the Bible to understand all about what is happening.

Chinese philosophy sees the relationship between society and the development of agriculture as as essential to understanding civilization. Western thought prefers to BELIEVE there is some deep meaning to their military conquests that makes it unnecessary to engage in much rational philosophy.

Chinese philosophy notes that the principles of cause and effect indicate the relationship between actions and consequences that has only recently managed to break through Western belief as the consequences of the reckless and blind pursuit of technology have come back from the "environment" (the name given to everything just ignored as stuff thrown away) to threaten everything.

It is your assumptions and beliefs that the Yi hexagrams can be given whatever arrangement fits conveniently in your prior training and beliefs and passed off as though the ancient Chinese must have thought exactly the same way since you can not imagine any alternatives.

Since you have a problem with other perspectives, perhaps you could begin by setting forth what evidence you have that any of your Yi globe assumptions or arrangements have any connection to the I Ching hexagrams and their King Wen Sequence and I will make logical arguments about the obvious limitations in that evidence.

You are reduced the Yi to a set of binary line figures organized solely by their balance of Yin and Yang lines. That does not fit any Chinese historical of philosophical model at all. It is pure 20th century Western computer binary fantasy that makes no sense in any way outside of the dorm rooms of computer science majors.

So, let's start with that new argument that your reasoning is faulty in its belief that the Yi hexagrams are still just binary counters no longer counting the numbers 0-63 but balance of 0's and 1's for some unknown reason.

My apologies for not limiting my remarks to that glaring error.

Frank
 

dryjoe

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Hi Frank,
in two hours I shall be away, far from computer and internet. I'll be back after 20th of August.
I'll answer your letter then. Have a nice holiday too. Joe
 

fkegan

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Hi Frank,
in two hours I shall be away, far from computer and internet. I'll be back after 20th of August.
I'll answer your letter then. Have a nice holiday too. Joe
Hi Joe,
Enjoy your holiday!

August here in U.S. will be major political action during Congressional Recess.
However, I await your return and reply.

Forty years ago I did my Ivy League undergraduate thesis (put through all the requirements of a Ph.D. dissertation since my thesis adviser and Prof of materials science, history of technology, and ancient engineering, only had grad students at that point) on how Western science was not objective, empirical or reasoned, just medieval Scholastic dogma and mistranslation of Aristotle (who actually only taught Greek rhetoric, so when Physics was based upon matter and energy the actual teaching was that a proper argument should be based upon nouns (substance, matter) and verbs (action or energy).

So I was granted my degree with honors in Chemistry and Other Religions. Though the various science faculty wondered why I included non-science in my scientific thesis and the lib arts faculty wondered why I bothered with silly science in my philosophical work.

And then I moved on to start work on my dissertation in Theoretical Biophysics--working out a new Open System Thermodynamics using insights from Teilhard. But they were still giving Nobel Prize to early work in the field, saying it was all they had published and it was important area for development. However, both I and an article in Science disproved Onsager's work as poorly reasoned--like all of thermo which was and is just idolatry of the Watt steam engine as new Golden Calf. Took 500 years to finally work out the piston engine Roger Bacon envisioned in 13th century though he only built a gun and gunpowder.

No one noticed the turbine of Hero of Alexandria or the Tai Ji as template for both turbines and AC electric generator. Chinese never had the intermediate problem to solve, like Europe's developing a working clock from the need to have a 3 am alarm for St. Benedict's Rule--no fair for a monk to enjoy the sinful pleasure of a good night's sleep.

During the holiday, I will go over your reasoning as presented and work on its logic flaws to be ready for your return to the fray.

Best wishes and Good luck,
Frank
 

fkegan

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Yi Globe arose from Tarot misunderstanding of Hebrew language and simple math number

In my academic scholarship I have often been greatly aided by looking at footnotes to find the secret lurking behind alleged philosophical arguments. The Yi globe has neither logic nor reason. It is all based upon the misunderstanding clearly stated in its source material:

http://trionfi.com/tarot/new-themes/sepher-yetzirah/

Where a magical confusion of the accident of the number 32 being both the number of rhyme scheme pairs in the I Ching or 2^5= 32 with the Kababla being "the marriage of poetry and philosophy" therefore the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet added to the 10 digits (either on your hand or number symbolism underlying decimal system or Pythagorean Tetraktys or other base 10 mathematics) or 10+22= 32.

When in 19th century Tarot was connected "artfully" to the SY, a new system arose. From this point on one could assume a connection between I-Ching and Tarot - but it is a creative game and the world is, what you want, that it is. The I-Ching has no pictures, and by the way, the Chinese had no alphabet. And the author of SY probably didn't thought of divination, although his probable source, the priests of David, cared about it, and their binary use of Urim and Tunnim (oracle stones) might have led them to adopt the same mathematical formula.
Although the author of SY probably wrote in the centurys after Christ, the author couldn't have invented the 22 letters and the 10 fingers. This simple logic leads to the question, if the inventor of the Hebrew alphabet already had the system in his mind, when he choose the number 22 as the ordering number of his new invention. Then you are in a time around 1500 BC. Although there is the possibility, that he accidently (or because of linguistic reasons) took this number, the probability of an adoption of a scheme that was already known to him from another context (maybe as a divination-scheme, maybe as a memory-system) is high.
The web page linked has the illustration of the basic Yi-globe which has absolutely no connection to I Ching, the transition from Shang era or Earlier Heaven arrangements to the King Wen Sequence.
It is a magic ridden mathematical misunderstanding arising from the accident of the number 32 having two mathematical "sources" namely addition of 10 and 22 and the raising of base 2 to the 5th power--that not all things sharing a number such as "32" can be worshiped as an ultimate revelation of Cosmic origin based upon foolish notions that any two calculations resulting in the same number must be the same Revelation from God.

Frank
 

dryjoe

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Referring to Frank Kegan's three last posts I'd like to tell that his provocative style and unbecoming manners are unacceptable for me. His remarks in connection of the Yi-globe are either irrelevant, or false, or deliberately deceptive, and unworthy of any consideration.
It is possible, however, that my opinion is not fully obvious for those who are unfamiliar with the Yi-globe or with our former posts. For the sake of them, I nevertheless react upon those remarks in brief, only to show their indefensibility.

1.) 'It is your belief that the ancient Yi must have been based upon a contemporary view of the Planet Earth Globe ...'
I wonder where Mr. Kegan got this information about my - non-existent - belief.
The Yi-globe is the symbolic representation of the whole universe, similarly to other ancient, archetypical, and circular or spherical symbols throughout in the world. It is called Yi-globe, because of its similarity in form to the terrestrial Globe. It has not any other connection with the Earth.

2.) 'It is your assumptions and beliefs that the Yi hexagrams can be given whatever arrangement fits conveniently in your prior training and beliefs and passed off as though the ancient Chinese must have thought exactly the same way since you can not imagine any alternatives.'
Here again: he speaks about my beliefs and my imagination that I have not had ever.
The Yi-globe has to be taken as the result of a theory. It logically follows from a set of statements (arguments). My arguments may be false or my reasoning weak; in this case the conclusion is false. I think that the arguments are true and the reasoning strong; but even in this case the truth of the conclusion is probable only and not necessary. This is the characteristic feature of the inductive logic. Thus, I know that there is a possibility for finding alternative arrangements, and I'll accept them at once if they will be based on valid arguments and stronger reasoning.

3.) '... perhaps you could begin by setting forth what evidence you have that any of your Yi globe assumptions or arrangements have any connection to the I Ching hexagrams and their King Wen Sequence ...'
Now it is clear that Mr. Kegan hadn't read my study at all.
The whole site is about these questions. See http://www.i-ching.hu.

4.a) 'You are reduced the Yi to a set of binary line figures organized solely by their balance of Yin and Yang lines. That does not fit any Chinese historical of philosophical model at all.'
It would be wise to read the text before criticizing it.
See Chapter II, subtitle Fundamental Principles:
"According to the commentary Shuo Gua the Receptive was conceived by the power of the Creative. [...] This message can be rendered into the language of changes: the first change occurred when the lowest, yielding line of the Receptive changed into a firm one ... [and so on]."
"The actions in the process of the creation of the hexagrams essentially are the same as they were in the case of the trigrams."

4.b) 'It is pure 20th century Western computer binary fantasy that makes no sense in any way outside of the dorm rooms of computer science majors.'
I think the boldface text may compete for a prize as the Silliest Idiom of the Month.

5.) 'So, let's start with that new argument that your reasoning is faulty in its belief that the Yi hexagrams are still just binary counters no longer counting the numbers 0-63 but balance of 0's and 1's for some unknown reason.
My apologies for not limiting my remarks to that glaring error.
'
New? argument?
For the answer see passage 4.a above.
And no pardon.

6.) 'In my academic scholarship I have often been greatly aided by looking at footnotes to find the secret lurking behind alleged philosophical arguments. The Yi globe has neither logic nor reason. It is all based upon the misunderstanding clearly stated in its source material: [link]'
This is Mr. Kegan's deceptive, low trick.
a) The referred link belongs to Lothar Teikemeier's Tarot site. The public edition of Teikemeier's book came out in 1998 (after a private edition in 1988), with the 'ichingsphere' in it. About the same time the first version of the Yi-globe was up for some months at the site of the Buddhist Mission of Hungary. Thus, Lothar's article and his sphere couldn't be the source material for the Yi-globe. Not knowing these facts, Kegan's statement has to be qualified a willful deception (whether learned in his academic scholarship too?)
b) The quoted article deals with an assumed connection between the I Ching and the Tarot. Its contents doesn't have any relation to my statements. Thus, drawing conclusions from it, relating to the Yi-globe, is again a misleading manipulation.

After quoting all these disgusting remarks I can't help but remember the man in Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar:
'It is easy to find fault, if one has that disposition. There was once a man who, not being able to find any other fault with his coal, complained that there were too many prehistoric toads in it.'
As a matter of fact, this man was right. He should learn something from Frank Kegan yet.

dryjoe
 
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fkegan

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Tarot divination OK, just not science or King Wen Sequence Explanation

Hi Joe,

Welcome back from vacation! I hope it was a good rest, recuperation and everything you hoped for on your holiday.

My only objection to your Yi-Globe posts was that you clearly were making allegations about "what must have been" the origin of the King Wen Sequence although you clearly were unaware of any and all views on that subject.

When you added claims that your views were reasoned and mine not, I took that as a peculiar personal attack and replied with remarks about how I reasoned my views.
I have, while you were on holiday managed to simplify a bit my explanation of the King Wen Sequence on my Flux Tome Page if you care for objective input.

As to your reference to a Tarot-based spherical arrangement of the hexagrams, that is your footnote and I only clicked upon it and noted its reasoning.
I cite it again in case anyone missed it the first time around:
http://trionfi.com/tarot/new-themes/sepher-yetzirah/

My niece was kind enough to post online this recent sociologist journal article to help you understand the reasoned explanation of your upset, etc.
Co-author Steven Hoffman, Ph.D., visiting assistant professor of sociology at the University at Buffalo, says, "Our data shows substantial support for a cognitive theory known as 'motivated reasoning,' which suggests that rather than search rationally for information that either confirms or disconfirms a particular belief, people actually seek out information that confirms what they already believe.
"In fact," he says, "for the most part people completely ignore contrary information.
"The study demonstrates voters' ability to develop elaborate rationalizations based on faulty information," he explains.
and the full article posting is:
http://www.physorg.com/news170070531.html

Again, I am delighted that you have indeed returned to post after your holiday.
I hope you are able to read the various other posts to learn more about the I Ching.

You can even find entire threads dedicated to folks venting their frustration with me and my objective research and views that seem to cause them pain for various reasons...

Frank
 
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Joe,

Thank you for your work on the Yi-Globe. It is very interesting and I look forward to trying it out.

Blessings,

Steve
 

dryjoe

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Joe, Thank you for your work on the Yi-Globe. It is very interesting and I look forward to trying it out.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your favorable opinion on my site and I look forward to the trial of the Yi-globe.
May I know, what will be the subject of your experiment? My hope is that sometime somebody will find some kind of interrelation between the received hexagram of a divination and its proper place on the globe. As we know this hexagram is the image of the actual earthly situation. As I think the Yi-globe is the image of the Universe, the Heaven. Knowing his condition (by the received hexagram), the man would have to bring himself into harmony with the Heaven. Thus, perhaps the Yi-globe could give him some more information on his way by its specific means, such as the position in space and time, connection with other symbols, and so on.
Please let me (or us, here) know the results of your future experiments.
Best, Joe
 
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May I know, what will be the subject of your experiment? My hope is that sometime somebody will find some kind of interrelation between the received hexagram of a divination and its proper place on the globe. As we know this hexagram is the image of the actual earthly situation. As I think the Yi-globe is the image of the Universe, the Heaven. Knowing his condition (by the received hexagram), the man would have to bring himself into harmony with the Heaven. Thus, perhaps the Yi-globe could give him some more information on his way by its specific means, such as the position in space and time, connection with other symbols, and so on.
Please let me (or us, here) know the results of your future experiments.
Hi Joe, you are welcome. Such intensive works deserves accolades! :bows:

AS for the nature of my experiment, that is an excellent question! And I have maybe not as excellent an answer: I don't know! :eek: :eek:

One thing I did with a recent series of consultations with the YiJing, was to look on the Yi-Globe and contemplate the position on the globe of the initial gua and then the changing situation and just kind of feel my way around other gua in terms of relationship in position etc.

I am still a beginner with the YiJing, even with just so-called "traditional" methods and even with studying it, reading books about and on it and using it for close to 30 years (to be fair, I have not been as diligent in my study or work with the Yi for that entire time. There was an intensive 7-12 period of study and use from 1982-1994 and then more recently for the last year again intensively with sporadic study, use and work in between).

And as new as the YiJing is for me, the Yi-Globe is still newer, and I am not really sure all the ways to use it. As a "globe" it just has a feel of something that is valuable as a way to understand these states of transformation and development in life. There is something about a sphere and using it to visualize something as multi-dimensional as the YiJing that appeals to me.

I have to study the text materials, as well as the Yi-Globe itself more before I really can really know more about how to use it.

Your point about (pardon the pun here, it is not intended, but the word works best for what I am trying to express) "orienting" one's self in life by literally using the Yi-Globe as a map to see where one is (I can see as kind of those maps in a big structure such as a park or a mall where there are maps all around with one's position on the map marked "You are here"!).

I think part of the value of the Yi-Globe and other more visual ways of seeing and studying the YiJing is to see the various gua as energy states, rather than as "judgements", "commentaries" or even "images" or "symbols".

In other words, I anticipate a time when I will be able to "feel" the gua for the energy state it represents rather than trying to understand it just through the conscious mind through translations, interpretations, commentaries, etc.

Maybe there are lots of people who can do that and maybe even some people here can do that. For me, I still need my books with their translations and commentaries (I have lots of them, but I usually start with Wilhelm, and/or the two simple "guides" to his translations that I like a lot, Carol Anthony's GUIDE TO THE I CHING and Brian Browne Walker's

I really believe that all of these strata and levels of interpretation are important and valuable. And I am convinced there is a more direct experience of the Yi that I kind of see or feel peripherally, out of the corner of my awareness, but cannot seem yet to fully connect with.

And anything that holds the promise or potential to bring us closer to that, I want to explore. The Yi-Globe is a tool that from my precursory perusal, seems to hold that potential (hey, try to say that 5 times fast! ;) ).

And I certainly will report any progress I make using it. At the beginning, it will just be kind of playing with it and see what comes up.

Thanks again for the work you have done and continue to care about.

Blessings, :bows:

Steve
 

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Just a quick not here also, as I have just posted on my own thread - I am still working on presenting my explanation for the apparently 'chaotic' King Wen Sequence.

The truth is that the hexagrams have not been 'scrambled' - in fact they have been inserted as trigrams via permutations of the Former and Later Heaven Bagua arrangements. This has been accomplished by playing around with grids incorporating the cardinal directions. I wouldn't advise spending time looking in to this just based on what I have said, because there are infinite reflections and translations possible - I arrived at the correct process by following instinctive ideas about patterns of allocation which reduced to a certain reflection and rotation process which produces symmetry throughout the King Wen Sequence.

Of course - these are just words on an internet forum, but one day you will see what I am talking about.

As I have said before; nothing needs to be added, no extra philosophy, number system, 3D structure, or theory is required, and ALL HEXAGRAMS ARE IN THE CORRECT PLACES.

It's simple stuff - once it's been explained.

Erime.
 

fkegan

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Hi Ermine and Joe,

You might want to check out the animation of the Yi Globe of this thread with its arrangement of the hexagrams along the long/lat grid of the Globe and the Yi arrangement based upon the Tarot :
http://trionfi.com/tarot/new-themes/sepher-yetzirah/
which may also be useful to your thinking.

I have found there is an absolute horizon line between the Shang era thinking in terms of trigrams, hexagram pairs, and the Earlier Heaven Arrangement comprising the waters under the Earth and the Chou Yi of King Wen (and thus the King Wen Sequence) that is all about the new arrangement of the 64 possible hexagrams into two halves, the first of course with 3 sets of 10 or decads about Planet Earth, Human Society organized for agriculture, and the Divine Regulation in terms of Justice, Karma or Cause and Effect. The second half has three more sets of 10 and a final four composed of abstract symbolism.

Not to worry too much about some Chinese stealing your intellectual property, they are now out of that phase and to be stolen there must be some hard headed global commercial value to it worth making off with.


Good Luck in your research,

Frank
 
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erime

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the new arrangement of the 64 possible hexagrams into two halves
That part is correct - heaven and earth to be exact, but what the real relevance of the halving is will be lost to you right now I am pretty sure. Even if I say "180 degrees rotation and reverse the reproduction rules" it will still not spill the beans :D
Maybe you will remember me saying that when you finally read the explanation.

Thanks for the links by the way - they're interesting but not very helpful to me really. After I have published my expose, I will post all the crazy diagrams I have made during my studies - that may be more entertaining - they look like something from a preschool maths class hahaha :rofl:.

Erime
 

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Hi Erime,

You might want to check out Joe's Yi globe animation. It uses elements from the 4 cardinal directions and the Earlier Heaven arrangement as well as a similar philosophical basis to your work. Start off trying to relate his animation to your work, rather than just dismissing it as different. You might find a deep connection since your premises and assumptions are related. His begins with binary counting within the Tarot categories of 22 and 10 that yields parallels (like latitude) based upon the number of Yang lines in each hexagram.

There is something interesting in your dividing the KWS halves in terms of Heaven and Earth. Not that it actually relates to ancient Chinese philosophy, which always starts with the three realms of Planet Earth, human society and Divine principle. However, the second half, at least the first 3 sets of10 are about more mundane matters. Not the Earth itself, but the relationships of individuals which are about folks living on the Earth.

I am also reminded of that great character in Henry Miller whose first sentence of his novel would be so great that it would end any interest in M.Proust's novels. Don't let your visions of how great your demonstration could be interfere with things that will be of more interest to you and others over the long haul.

I do hope the two of you are able to work together. Even if your work takes different final developments, you are using the same elements and perspectives. One specializing on the ordering of the KWS, the other putting the individual hexagrams into geographical orientation independent of the KWS.

Good Luck to you both,

Frank
 

erime

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Yes Frank; that hadn't been so clear to me before, because the cardinal direction-heavy aspect is only becoming apparent to me now. However, as you have mentioned on this thread - the YiGlobe is 3D, while these systems we are working with are apparently rooted in 2D. I don't think the creators of these systems wanted to float around in an imaginary world too much - I think they would have used the 'real world' for 3D aspects, as opposed to bring those 3D aspects in to their graphical systems. My explanation currently supports this.

There is something interesting in your dividing the KWS halves in terms of Heaven and Earth. Not that it actually relates to ancient Chinese philosophy, which always starts with the three realms of Planet Earth, human society and Divine principle. However, the second half, at least the first 3 sets of10 are about more mundane matters. Not the Earth itself, but the relationships of individuals which are about folks living on the Earth.
An interesting idea, however, with regards to the Heaven, Human, Earth distinctions one finds within the hexagrams and trigrams by way of their natural, obvious, and complete divisions in to 3 neat sections, this doesn't seem to apply to the 8x8 64 hexagrams, whose most obvious numerical leanings are towards the number 2.

This means that we default to Heaven and Earth with regards to the Iching as a whole. So where is the Human in all this? It's you the observer/user! By interacting with the Iching you complete the system by becoming the conduit between Heaven and Earth whose qualities are stored within the Iching as a whole. :bows:
 

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Hi Erime,
You might want to check out Joe's Yi globe animation. It uses elements from the 4 cardinal directions and the Earlier Heaven arrangement as well as a similar philosophical basis to your work. Start off trying to relate his animation to your work, rather than just dismissing it as different. You might find a deep connection since your premises and assumptions are related. His begins with binary counting within the Tarot categories of 22 and 10 that yields parallels (like latitude) based upon the number of Yang lines in each hexagram.
Hi Frank,

Will you be so kind, please, not to refer to the works of other persons as if they were my own. (Not that I had anything against them – quite the contrary.)
The animation of the Yi-globe has been made by Chris Willmot. Just look at his site: Visualising the Yijing as a Whole.
It is Lothar Teikemeier who deals with the Tarot. He was the author of the article that you have referred to. In a former post (#14) I wrote you already that my study hadn't have any connection to his exposition. Thus, using his theory on another subject is a misleading argumentation against the Yi-globe."
Joe

Besides, the fact that Lothar and me, starting from quite different bases, achieved the same results gives a higher reality of this spherical arrangement (not to speak of the further arguments). This kind of coincidence is worth of another strong argument.
 
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dryjoe

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Five levels of human existence in the Yi-globe

Some weeks ago I added a new page to my site, entitled as News, Q&A, Addenda. For the members of our Community, however, there were neither novelties nor unknown answers on the page, because I began the editing with some of the questions and remarks had been posted here.

Today I uploaded a new addendum, dealing with the relation between the meanings of the hexagrams and the number of the firm lines in them. This relationship is well visible on the different levels of the Yi-globe. Hopefully, somebody will find it interesting.

The address is: http://www.i-ching.hu/chp00/news/news.htm#sub3

dryjoe
 

votri

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DryJoe,

Thanks for your contribution. I am a fan of iching for the last 10 years. As I ran to your discovery of the Yi-Globe, I have some questions about it. Hopeful you can explain it to me.

(1) In the figure 8a at page
http://www.i-ching.hu/chp00/chp2/reconstruct.htm
It states that the birth of the 3 sons and daughters. According to my study:
Qian (father) has 3 sons : Gen, Kan & Zhen
Kun (mother) has 3 daugters: Dui, Li, Xun
=> Your logic is opposite to the iching old books.

If you flip your yi-globe 180 degree with hexgram #1 on the bottom to represent SOUTH to match the meaning of Hexagram #1 (the 4th lunar month, Summer), then you would have the perfect Yi-Globe

VoTri
 

sparhawk

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The only issue with that, from a Chinese perspective, is that South was represented on top, where our Western perspective places North.
 

votri

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Precisely Mr sparhawk !

It is that little misunderstanding on the order of the iching hexagrams has lead many readers / learner into the wrong direction. For example, the table of DNA pair with Iching by Dr Katya Walter has the same mistake that lead to the unorderly sequence of iching diagram on that table. If she understood the iching perspective, she would assign the DNA codon as
C = 01
A = 10
G = 11
U = 00
then her table of iching sequence would also be perfect.
http://www.kinhduong.com/dna.html

As for the Yi-Globe, once the author understand this North South concept and made the necessary correction to the drawing, the Yi-Globe would also be the best representation of the Iching table.

If you want to see the iching orderly sequence, click
http://www.vietlyso.com/forums/uploaded/2284_1259035138.jpg

Sorry for the language barrier, but atleast you can read the first 7 column. Good luck and fair well. I am just a visitor passing by and dropping a few lines of suggestion. Here today, gone by the time you read these lines.

VoTri
 

dryjoe

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The "perfect" Yi-globe

DryJoe,
Thanks for your contribution. I am a fan of iching for the last 10 years. As I ran to your discovery of the Yi-Globe, I have some questions about it. Hopeful you can explain it to me.
(1) In the figure 8a at page
http://www.i-ching.hu/chp00/chp2/reconstruct.htm
It states that the birth of the 3 sons and daughters. According to my study:
Qian (father) has 3 sons : Gen, Kan & Zhen
Kun (mother) has 3 daugters: Dui, Li, Xun
=> Your logic is opposite to the iching old books.
If you flip your yi-globe 180 degree with hexgram #1 on the bottom to represent SOUTH to match the meaning of Hexagram #1 (the 4th lunar month, Summer), then you would have the perfect Yi-Globe
VoTri
In fact, the six trigrams (three 'sons' and three 'daughters') belong, as usual, to both parents.

The Shuo Koa (Chp. III, 10.) reads: "In the trigram of the Arousing [Zhen] she [Kun, the Receptive] seeks for the first time the power of the male and receives a son." Afterwards: "In the trigram of the Gentle [Xun] the male [Qian, the Creative] seeks for the first time the power of the female and receives a daughter."
Shortly: She (Kun) receives a son, and the male (Qian) receives a daughter. And so on, Kun will receive two sons yet, and Qian two daughters. Apparently, the sons stand closer to the mother and the daughters to the father. This is plainly visible on the pictures of the trigrams: the sons differ from the mother in one line only, and the daughters in two lines.

As to the other remark of yours, I don't understand the plan. Hex #1 is the Creative, the Heaven; its place is at the top, at the zenith. The Receptive is below, at the nadir. Do you want to place the Earth to the sky and the Heaven on the earth? The four cardinal points of the compass (N, S, E, W) are in the horizontal plane, in the same order as a man, standing in the center, sees them. In reality, in the three-dimensional space (and on drawings made in perspective), the South never is above nor below; it is marked so in two dimensions only, on papers, on maps, etc.

The Yi-globe is a symbol and it is neither the terrestrial nor the celestial globe (though, in many respects, similar to them). If you should look at the figure 23 you will see the exact orientation of the Yi-globe. And if you will compare it with the pictures of the Earlier or the Later Heaven, you will see that the cardinal points are in the same (Chinese) order here too: the North is close to the reader, the South is far, etc.
Joe
 

votri

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Dryjoe,

In the spirit of Thanksgiving, I want to give you these pictures to help you in understanding the creation of pre-heaven pakua. Without seeing the yin-yang pakua, most people would not understand the reason behind the exchange of daughter and son in pre-heaven pakua.

http://www.kinhduong.com/dryjoe.html

VoTri
 

dryjoe

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5,000 Views !

Sparhawk started this thread in May, and by now it has reached the fabulous 5,000 visits.:)

Luis, many thanks for your initiative and the kind introductory words. I am very grateful to everybody for sending messages, questions, and critics – all these have helped me a lot in improvement of my conceptions on the hidden contents of the Yijing. Thanks all the visitors as well – I had not dreamed ever of such a keen interest.:bows:

All this would not have been possible without this excellent site of Clarity and the Community around it, with its founder and manager, its brain and heart, Hilary Barrett. Dear Hilary, me as a 'junior member' cannot offer you anything but a child's drawing (attached). Please take it with kindness. :bows:
(The idea is from Lyse's matrices; here the basic characteristics – positions of the reversed pairs, the symmetrical pairs, Heaven and Earth, etc. – are similar to those of the Yi-globe.)

Joe
 
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votri

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Dear DryJoe,

First, I want to wish you a happy Lunar New Year. Wishing you
1 Year of Happiness
12 Months of fun
52 Weeks of gladness
365 days of success
8760 hours of good health and
525600 minutes of good luck !

Second, once again thanks for sharing the Yi-Globe. To others, it is just another pretty picture. To me, it is a recipes for curing many cancers and diseases.
For example, looking from the bottom up, above hexagram #2 are the two hexagram #23 and #24. From medicine point of view, hexagram #23 is phenylalanine. High levels of phenylalanine in brain of children with phenylketonuria may be reduced by administration of a supplement of isoleucine (hexagram #24).

Happy new year !
VoTri
 

votri

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Dear DryJoe,

One of my goal in the year of the Tiger, 2010, is to find the use of iching in today cure for cancer and disease. Currently I am working with several medical doctors and iching masters in exploring new methods of application.

With the current Iching Table and my new DNA table, I am convince that I can start the new road to success. If I am able to use your Yi-Globe, I believe our rate of success will be faster and will be more effective in explaining to medical doctors that have little knowledge of iching. What I am asking is your permission to use your Yi-Globe in explaining the iching, and most importantly not changing the structure of Yi-Globe.

The main purpose of exploring the new medical field for me is to growth or enhance the use of iching beyond fortune reading. In return, the knowledge will have a tremendous benefits of healing power and take the medical field to the next level. With your permission, I want to take the Yi-Globe to the next level, the application level.

And one more things, all of the knowledge gain from finding will be used for good-deed, not one penny will be collected and distributed among any contributors, including myself. The only reward that we will receive is the satisfaction of seeing our knowledge will help many patients live a healthier life.

I have a lot of faith in your understanding of my request. My request is strange, but I hope that you can see my knowledge of iching and my friendship connection in putting the right team for the right causes. If you think it is unfair and can't honor my request, our team will understand. Without Yi-Globe, our tasks will take a little longer, but eventually can be accomplished.

Your consideration is greatly appreciated. Our team await your answer !
VoTri
 

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