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The Zhouyi transformational line

lienshan

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hi Sergio ... thanks for posting this very interesting Three Yi Jing article in I Ching News :bows:

http://zhouyi.sdu.edu.cn/english0/newsxitong/selectedPapers/2008411190938.asp

I think that the journalist misses an important pointe: those divining by the Zhouyi used another technique than the professional diviners when creating hexagrams! The journalist uses the ten examples listed below and I've added those four more from the Zou Zhuang (Legge translation), that he doesn't mention:

hex 18 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Xi15
hex 52.2 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Xiang9a
hex 3 and hex 16
hex 47.3
hex 36.1 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Zhao5a
hex 3 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Zhao7b
hex 3 and hex 8 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Zhao7b
hex 11.5 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Ai9
hex 20.4 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Zhuang22
hex 2.5 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Zhao12

hex 3.6 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Min1
hex 14.2 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Min2
hex 54.1 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Xi15
hex 14.4 http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/athornto/zuozhuan.htm#Xi25

11 out of the 14 divinations are based on hexagrams with exactly ONE transformational line ...
let's have a look at the 3 counterexamples:

The first is hex 18 created by the diviner Tu Fu and the statements cited by him were not from the text of the Zhouyi.

The second is hex 3 and hex 16 ... the journalist puts in text within brakes () that make it look like a hex with more changing lines, but without the brakes the text says: "The prince divined in person and interpreted: “still have State Jin.” Both the zhen of hexagram Tun and the hui of hexagram Yu are ba. All official diviner historians said “it is not propitious, because it indicates stagnation and the lines are static”.

The third counterexample is from the continued divination by Kong Zhengzi. First he got hex 3 and then he again got hex 3 and hex 8 ... the journalist makes the continued divination look like two questions, but it looks like the second question is two questions according to the Legge translation: "He also propounded the inquiry whether he should set up Zhi, and if this appointment would be acceptable". That'll say that three questions were answered with three hexagrams without transformational lines.

I think that two methods of creating hexagrams were used. Those divining by the Zhouyi used a technique creating a hexagram with one transformational line. Those divining by Guicang etc. created static hexagrams; either a single hexagram as in the first and third counterexample, or two static hexagrams as in the second.

lienshan
 
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sergio

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Hi Lienshan;
You are welcome,J!That's what sharing is all about-some other persons will process the information differently and come up with other ideas and points of view.Regarding your theory,everything is possible-we just don't know for sure.There is a very interesting paper to which Luis refers in his article that deals with these precise divination records.The method Luis reports is derived from analysing those divinations and it is quite convincing IMHO.Please check his article for paper's reference.I also remind you that apparently in ancient times they deemed appropiate to ask the same question up to three times and it is quite possible they use the three yi to match the answers and come up with a definite interpretation-therefore it is also possible they used many different methods to obtain the oracle requested.
Sergio
 

lienshan

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There is a very interesting paper to which Luis refers in his article that deals with these precise divination records.The method Luis reports is derived from analysing those divinations and it is quite convincing IMHO.Please check his article for paper's reference.
Hi Sergio

I've checked his article and think that the method is OK, if the subject of original Zhouyi method was to get one of the 384 lines? That'll say, that at least two methods are described in Zou Zhuan; the Zhouyi method and a method simply looking like "pick a number". Especially the continued divination by Zhengzi looks as if he simply draw stalks representing hexagrams. The yarrowstalks used today look alike, but maybe they were originally painted in 64 different patterns?

The Zhouyi method is most clearly described in the Mu Jiang divination. Legge translate:

she consulted the milfoil and got the second line of the diagram Gen.
The diviner said, "This is what remains when Gen becomes Sui"

The Three Yi journalist translate:

she had conducted a divination, encountering with hexagram Gen to ba:
The official diviner interpreted: It is called Gen to Sui.

In both translations she got the second line of hexagram Gen called: Gen to )( , ba, eight. What confuses in the last translation is, that the official diviner treat the transformational line as the only static line, while the first translation explains his inspired point of view to give her an optimistic reading. He could too have interpreted: It is called Gen to Gu (hex 18), but that would like the 52.2 linetext have resulted in a far more pessimistic reading ... it's hard doing readings to death-sentenced prisoners ;)

lienshan
 
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lienshan

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Addition of method-details based on the Legge translation of Zou Zhuan

............................................................................................................
Tu Fu, the diviner, consulted the milfoil ... The diagram found is Gu
Kong Zhengzi consulted the Zhou Yi by the reeds and he got the diagram Tun.
He also ... in answer to which he got Tun and then Bi.
............................................................................................................
Chu Qiu also consulted the milfoil and obtained the diagram Da You, and then Qian.
Duke Xian of Jin was divining by the milfoil; he got the diagram Gui Mei, and then the diagram Kui.
............................................................................................................
Mu Jiang consulted the milfoil and got the second line of the diagram Gen
............................................................................................................
The marquis made him consult it by the milfoil, when he found the diagram Guan,
and then by the change of manipulation, the diagram Pi.
Bi Wan had divined by the milfoil and obtained the diagram Zhun,
and afterwards, by the manipulation, Bi.
............................................................................................................
Zhuang Shu consulted the Zhou Yi by the reeds and got the diagram Ming Yi,
which then became Qian.
Yang Hu consulted the reeds on the principles of the Yi of Zhou and found the diagram Tai,
which then became the diagram Xu.
Nan Kuai consulted by some twigs about his object, and got the diagram Kun
which then became Bi.
The marquis of Jin and Yan consulted the reeds and found the diagram Da You,
which then became the diagram Kui.
............................................................................................................

And an explanation by Harmen Mensker:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5287&page=8
 
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