Theoretical relationship question, hex 38 and 40

[pargenton]

Hi all,
In my experience hex 38 in relationships questions usually indicates a man and two women, this is explained by Da liu in this way:
upper trigram is Li, the middle daughter;
lower trigram is Tui, young daughter;
upper nuclear trigram is Kan, middle son;


Hence the man and two women.

I was wandering if, applying the same logic, you could explore some other hex.
For instance, a relationship with two men and a woman should have Li as lower nuclear trigram, and two male trigrams as upper and lower.

Hex 40 could fit, since it has Li as low nuclear, upper trigram is Chen, and lower is Kan.
Has anybody noticed hex 40 in relationships with two men and a woman ?
bye
Paolo

 

[frank]

Hi Paolo,

Wow, that´s an insite :-D. I never looked at the Yi that way, but why not... Hexagram 40 to me usualy comes when I´m asked to liberate myself in enstranglemend, from idea´s, people, situations, etc, to get a more clearer picture. But maybe I should read those answers in this matter too, as for earlier relationshipquestions, as I remember one in particular, 40 could have mean...: ´stay away, she already has one...´!

Nice look at things!

Hug,
Frank

 

[lightofdarkness]

To see the expression of 38 THROUGH all of the other hexagrams, and therefore bring out what you are focused upon in those hexagrams, do the following:

For EACH hexagram, flip the nature of each line that corresponds to the YANG lines in 38 (and so lines 1,2,4, & 6). E.g. the qualities of 38 inherent in 24 are described by 010101 - 64.

For 38 THROUGH hex 40 we flip 1,2,4, & 6 of 40 to give 100001 - 27 - hungering, a need to be filled, structure in need of content with a warning about what to take in.

40 deals with tension release through sudden release of structure; 38 covers dealing with oppositions through mirroring (Let them see themselves in you - the trigrams interpret as "with self-reflection comes direction".)

This mirroring property inherent in 40 means it is expressed where releasing tension elicits a 'demand' for re-tensioning by a need to 're-fill'.

Chris.

 

[pagan]

If I flip the yang lines of hex 38 in hex 24 I get 64. That means that hexagram 24 should reflect the 'opposite' (because hex 38 is about opposition) qualities of hexagram 64? But in a way 24 is starting over and 64 (the end of the line of hexagrams) is also about starting over 'before the end' might also be read as 'at the new beginning'. So the two seem to me to be more similar than opposed.

Hexagram 40, Deliverance, is about forgiving and moving on, releasing some energy sucking situation or person or drug. Hexagram 27 is about finding what is fit to take in; whether it is real food or mental food or spiritual food. So they are somewhat opposite in that 40 tends to be eliminating and 27 is already emtpy, looking to be filled.
P.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Hi Pagan,

>
> By Pagan (Pagan) on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 02:58 am:
>
> If I flip the yang lines of hex 38 in hex 24 I get 64. That
> means that hexagram 24 should reflect the 'opposite'
> (because hex 38 is about opposition) qualities of hexagram
> 64?

No. Consider 24 as a FILTER, a context, THROUGH which we are trying to express the pure, archetypal, nature of 38. The filter will DISTORT the expression of 38 such that the result is a 'mix' of 38 and 24. (what is happening is that, due to the whole being encoded in all parts, so we are bringing out the '38-ness' of 24; as a species we all share the same DNA IN GENERAL but nature+nurture will introduce unique perspectives in EACH of us such that expressions of species-wide behaviours will be different for each individual but still retain the GENERAL behaviour - thus YOUR personal nature as X will 'colour' the expression of some species-nature - you will express 'anger' differently to another even though the GENERAL form, the archetypal form, of anger is the same for both of you)

Since the I Ching is a closed system, so all meaning is communicatable by analogy to other qualities in the system. In this particular situation of 38 through 24, or the 38-ness of 24, the description of the expression is made by analogy to qualities of 64. - IOW what is the 'opposition' nature, or the 'mirroring' nature, the 38-ness, of 24 expressed as? 64.

Thus we can have:

archetypal form of expression of opposition/mirroring - 38
YOUR particular expression in general - 24
Expression of 38 THROUGH 24 - 64

So -- within the context of the 'new' (or 'return' to the 'old' ;-)) the *expression* of 38 in that context will be in the form of remaining open, avoiding closure as a manner in dealing with oppositions/mirroring etc. (64 covers 'mis-sequencing, getting an order 'incorrect' and so not complete, but in doing so there is the positive nature of remaining open, avoiding closure - and so 'gather' more information etc. 38 comes with a focus on reflecting others so that they see themselves 'in' you and so no longer oppose you. In the context of 'returning' you need to 'avoid' such distractions to 'be like us' as you 'return' to YOUR 'true' path.

If we use the same 'flipping' method to look at the skeleton of 24, possible through applying 27 to 24, we get 23. (27 covers the need to, the hungering to fill the structure, the skeleton, to add some meat and muscle. To see 27-ness nature in all of the other hexagrams, flip 1 and 6 in those hexagrams)

Hex 23 here reflects the generic architecture of 24, the clay from which it was made, and that clay covers 'finding' of, the assertion of, the 'true' faith, the 'correct' expression of a belief.

By using the 'flipping' method one fleshes out all of the qualities of the particular hexagram as it serves as a filter for all of the other hexagrams. Consider the 64 hexagrams as genes. The genes are common to all but will be distorted when expressed in, through, a particular.

>
> Hexagram 40, Deliverance, is about forgiving and moving on,
> releasing some energy sucking situation or person or drug.
>

More. The PAIR of 40 and 37 reflect tension release. 40 by relaxation of structure, 37 by imposition of structure. Thus the tension release in 40 is in the sudden release. 37 is where the the structure in the context, where 'first daughter is first daughter' etc etc means there is no competition, all is in the 'correct' place and so tension-releasing.

the skeleton of 40 is in 38 where the mirroring element of 38 (let them see themselves in you) can relax tension.
the skelton of 37 is in 39 where we go against the mindless 'flow', a 'rigid' structure that through its 'obstruction'we can 'bypass' the mindless.

> Hexagram 27 is about finding what is fit to take in; whether
> it is real food or mental food or spiritual food.

More. It is about basic structure IN NEED of filling - and so the architecture, the skeleton. There is 'vague' meaning in the structure but to fully express itself it needs filling.

the trigram structure is of the 'new' at the bottom, the moment of enlightenment, of surprise, of shock, within which is operating the trigram of mountain. Mountain in the top position reflects discernment, quality control.

With something 'new', or 'just born', the basics are there, we just need to move-in the furniture, partitions, etc etc - the warning being on to ensure we use quality-control.

If we apply 27 to itself to derive the 'generic architecture', we get 02 - the generic focus being on what is POSSIBLE, potentials - in need of 'filling' to actualise.

Chris.

 

[pargenton]

Hi all,
and thank for your inputs.
However, I would like to go back to the original question, i.e. ,supposing it is correct to say that hex 38 in relationship questions could indicate (and in my experience it is so) a relationship with two women ( a wife and a lover for instance) and a man, can we discover similar meanings in other hexagrams ?
What hexagram, for instance, and considering the trigrams reasoning in the first post, could indicate a relationship with two men and a woman ?
Peace
Paolo

 

[lightofdarkness]

There is a fundamental element in 38 of *deceit*. The reflection aspect means you put up a mirror so others see what they want (or you would like them to see), allowing you to live a life 'behind' the mirror.

What that life is in detail is meaningless - it could be one of extra-marital affairs or a 'night life' totally at odds with how one presents, REFLECTS, oneself in 'normal' society. IOW the GENERIC nature of the hexagram is not focused totally on relationships of one man, two women, it is focused upon activitives hidden to others where what is done could elicit opposition if found out.
(and so can also cover issues of two men, one woman - regardless of the 'sex' of the trigrams etc)

That 'mirror' NATURE is reflected in ALL of the other hexagrams but in a distorted manner due to the influence of those other hexagrams.

IOW it is 'easy' to see relationship issues of 'one man, two women' in 38 as it is 'two men, one woman'.... I dont see it in 40 in its pure form but I can see it where 40 contains '38-ness' expressed in terms sourced from the characteristics of 27.

Chris.

 

[pargenton]

Hi Chris,
I understand your point of view and what you say about the mirror nature of hex 38, however at least in my practical experience hex 38 did not cover issues of two men and one woman but only two women and one man, I was wandering why, and the sex of the trigrams could be an explanation.

In the text of hex 38 it is said "two women dwell together", while in no other hex, maybe I'm wrong, it is said something about "two men", maybe this is important.
Peace
Paolo

 

[lightofdarkness]

Sure, I get your point so lets go a bit 'deeper'....

If you want to identify the source of nourishment for 38, the 'well' from which it gets nourishment, apply 48 to 38 by flipping the lines 2, 3, and 5 of 38 (those correspond to the YANG lines in 48) - this gives us 101111 where the focus is on association with others (hex 13) - showing the nature of dealing with oppositions with others through reflecting them, mirroring them, and so being seen to 'be like them' - likeminded 'officially' if not so personally.

As such this mapping would cover associations in general and so include two men, one woman relationships. The comments on the trigrams I think is more a comment on the traditional natures of the trigrams when interpreted from a family perspective (that said, rotate 38 to get 37 - all about 'rigid' family structure and so a possible influence on the trigram intepretations - 37 focuses on tension RELEASE through that structure - there is a sense in 38 of tension INCREASE and its release through mirroring etc... and note the trigrams in 37)

Chris.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Paolo, an additional point - the opposite of 38 is 39 - dealing with 'obsticles', as in BEING an obsticle and so 'standing one's ground' against the mindless flow, as well as BYPASSING obsticles, flow around them. Overall there is a 'phallic' quality here.

Rotate 39 gives you 40.... ;-)

Chris.

 

[martin]

Did you mean intentional deceit Chris? Personally I don't see that in hexagram 38. Things seem to be very much in the open in that hexagram.
Communication can be superficial in a 38 situation because one is unable or unwilling to make contact and so there may be deception in the sense of "deceptive appearances" but this is different from deceiving and hiding on purpose.
People are perhaps not even interested in how they come across in 38. They do their own thing and that's it.

Btw, welcome back!

 

[pargenton]

just a few minutes ago, it came to my mind a reading done for a married woman who was tempted by another man, to keep the story short.

The reading was 6, Sung / Conflict, which depicted well the situation of this woman.

Upper trigram Ch'ien, which could be her husband, older than her.
Lower trigram K'an, the other man.
Lower nuclear is Li, our woman.
bye
Paolo

 

[pagan]

Hi Paolo
You can't be implying that anyone who consults the IC and gets 38 is in a menage-a-trois relationship? Many of us have never indulged ourselves in that way nor are we ever inclined to.

Chris,
hex 39 seems to me to be the ultimate end of 37 because when you are stuck in roles, how can you not get stuck in mental attitudes as well?
P.

 

[pagan]

Martin and Chris,
I agree that there is a certain deciet in hexagram 38; a barrier to understanding has caused alienation. Whether it is intentional is hard to make a hard fast rule but I would say that sometimes it is.
p.

 

[pargenton]

Hi Pagan,
in short, no, you are right.
I was trying to gather data from other people's experiences.
I, for myself, have found a correlation, in relationship questions, between hex 38 and troubled relationships with two women and a man, I was wandering if it was a personal experience or not, and if it could be applied to other hexagrams.

Peace
Paolo

 

[lightofdarkness]

Hi Martin,

The deceit need not be intentional, but one's actions can be interpreted as such by 'others'.

> Btw, welcome back! [ happy ]
>



Pagan, can you flesh-out a bit more what you are getting at re 37-39?

thanks.

Chris.

 

[martin]

Another question for you Chris:
To me 'X expressed through Y' suggests an asymmetry. If you exchange X and Y the result will in general be different.
But in the way you have defined it it doesn't matter, the expression of X through Y is the expression of Y through X (it's easy to see that if you realize that you are in fact adding up the binary numbers that correspond to the hexagrams modulo 2 and without carry).
So 'expression through' is perhaps not the most suitable term. Is 'sum' or something like that not better?

 

[pagan]

Hi Chris,
When you talk about the yin/yang methods of 'releasing energy', 40 is real liberation, but, in the way you describe it, 37 is a negative form of energy release because it builds a barrier against excess by forming hard fast roles that are not to be violated. When ever you have created a static condition like that, it seems that mental obstruction is the inevitable outcome because once stuck in a role, your mind doesn't think outside the box. So it seems that 39 is the inevitable outcome of 37.
P.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Hi Martin,

If you look at the other thread that covers this area (line position meanings) I wrote a reply that covers the concept of constructive/destructive wave interference BUT limited to a PULSE not a full wave.

The overall focus here is on context. For example, we ask ?what is the source, from where does hexagram X get its nourishment, what keeps it going?? This reflects trying to identify the ?48-ness? of a hexagram. If we work off the first four yang-based hexagrams of the binary ordering we get:

111111 (01) apply 48 gives 100101 (21)
111110 (43) apply 48 gives 100100 (51)
111101 (14) apply 48 gives 100111 (25)
111100 (34) apply 48 gives 100110 (17)

If we then ask ?how does hexagram X solve problems?? we are trying to identify the 21-ness of a hexagram. Using the same hexagrams we get:

111111 (01) apply 21 gives 011010 (48) ? the expression is one of analogy, where the manner in which 01 solves problems is like drawing from the deep, asserting one?s position and standing firm (the ?well? as such can represent consciousness, memory, skillset etc., and the well?s construction reflects the ?firming?, well built, robust, nature and so assertive power; context-setting ability)

This does not appear as the ?opposite? of ?111111 (01) apply 48 to give 100101 (21) ?where the expression is on using problem solving as a source of nourishment, something to ?feed? upon; there is more so a feedback loop at work.

As such we are dealing with complements, not opposites such that ?summing? suggests ?negating? etc etc and does not seem to ?fit? for me; the focus is on the CONTEXT being a FILTER through which we pass our ?archetype? qualities (e.g. 48). The expression of that passage, the output, is in the form of the derived hexagram as a form of distortion. If we then swap the archetype with the expression and keep the context we are not working 1:1 in that the path is particular->general->particular and that format, the general, will ?bias? interpretations away from direct 1:1 swapping.

The use of the term ?THROUGH? emphasises the passage through a filtering system where that filter can distort the output? but I understand your point so some term will ?evolve? as we discuss these things more.

In the others above we have (the 48-ness focus):
Source of nourishment in ?spreading the word? is through the ?new?, the ?shocking?, the ?enlightening? (51) ? IOW 51 keeps 43 going (without something to spread we are ?starving?!).

Source of nourishment in directing things (14), the corporate ?leader? is in standing up to say/do one?s thing without fear, or consideration, of consequences ? IOW 25 keeps 14 going.

Source of nourishment in invigorating/motivating (34) is through seekers of belief systems (17) ? IOW it is those seekers that keep 34 ?invigorating? and so invigorated.

Note of course that this approach applies to ANY level of dichotomisation such that we can use the same system at the level of 4096 dodecagrams (aka hexagrams with ?changing lines?) or at the level of trigrams ? the differences being in the levels of precision in deriving meaning.

Chris.

 

[lightofdarkness]

Hi Pagan,

I would not consider 37 as overly negative, just achieving tension release through its rigour. One of the comments covers a man coming back from a stressful situation and walking through the door elicits tension release - it is the context that elicits the release, nothing is said - when we come home from the office off go the shoes and we 'relax' due to the structure of the home - if the home is competitive, 'unstructured' then there is tension increase.

If we look at where 37 gets its nourishment, we apply 48 to it. This give us 41 - a focus on concentrating, distilling in the positive sense, decrease when the distillation 'fails'.

The trigrams of 41 are self-reflection (lake bottom) in which is operating discernment (mountain top, quality control). In this context of 37 as family so the 'correct order' of the family, elicits 'purity', satisfies with 'purity'.

We can derive a negative aspect in this but I think the overall nature is positive.

Chris.

 

[martin]

Hi Chris,

I was thinking about a different method to calculate the expression of X though Y: don't change the yin lines in X, only change the yang lines (if the corresponding line in Y is yang).
This makes sense, I think. A yin line filtered through a yang line remains yin, the result is not a yang line, as in your method.
And the expression of X through Y is now in general not the same as the expression of Y through X. The symmetry is gone. The + operation is no longer commutative (1+0=1 but 0+1=0).

How does hex 2 solve problems? (apply 21). What is its source? (apply 48). Whatever the question is, the answer is always hex 2. This seems to fit the nature of hex 2 quite well. It remains itself in all circumstances.
How does 52 solve problems? (apply 21). This method gives 15 and that looks more plausible to me than 55, the result of the symmetric method.

Is there something in it?
I'm still treating the lines as if they are independent coordinates. A yang line in the 'filter' can only affect the corresponding line in the first hexagram, it doesn't influence the other lines. I have the feeling that that is somehow not right, 'reality' is more complicated than that.
But what is 'reality' in this case? One of the problems with such calculations is of course that you cannot really put them to a test. Whatever you do, it always makes 'sense' somehow, but you cannot derive hard predictions that can be falsified through experiments or observation.
So what are we doing here? Strictly speaking it isn't science. Or is it?
Not that I find it uninteresting ..

 

[lightofdarkness]

Hi Martin,

you wrote:
> I was thinking about a different method to calculate the
> expression of X though Y: don't change the yin lines in X,
> only change the yang lines (if the corresponding line in Y
> is yang).

? I think above you have the direction wrong. Look at it as X -> Y -> Z. We change nothing in X - we just change in Y those lines that correspond to the YANG lines in X - this process giving us Z.

Y is the hexagram we are focused upon as filter and we are trying to detect the 'X' nature in Y and so the expression of that relationship where Y acts to distort/filter X. This distortion gives us a description associated by analogy to the characteristics of Z.

The overall focus is on ARCHETYPE -> CONTEXT -> EXPRESSION. The term 'context' could be confusing in that we are focused upon the hexagram in that position and so it becomes the foreground, the text, BUT its qualities as such form the context as well, we are seeing it as a FILTER. I suppose it is a matter of 'view', we focus on archetype to show its expression through a context OR we focus on a hexagram-as-text to show the expression of archetypes 'in' it. This is 'same-same' in general, subtle nuances of differences at the particulars level. (we can re-intepret as GENE(bedrock) -> HEXAGRAM(filter) -> EXPRESSION(topsoil))

Lets review things:

Since hexagram 02 is the source of all as POTENTIALS so when we associate any ACTUAL as X it will be presented as Z unchanged; there is no distortion since 02 contains all forms and will reflect 'perfectly' any X nature AS X nature.

Since hexagram 01 is the source of all as ACTUALS, when we try to map out 'X' nature we get its 'opposite' as Z - giving us the 'full spectrum' of the X nature. The distortion of all of that energy in Y will push X so hard as to flip it into its 'opposite' structure as in potential where, given the maximisation of the actual, there is no other possible expression. IOW we see here the yin-into-yang, yang-into-yin dynamic (enantiodromia). This will be common in any closed system of qualities, you cannot go outside of the box for representations so you flip 'meanings' - you oscillate across the whole set of meanings.


>
> How does hex 2 solve problems? (apply 21)

- and you get 21.

Consider 02 as the set of genes 'free' of distortions - you get stimulus/response without any intervention, distortion. If we map-in five-phase theory, where I can associate it with socioeconomic dynamics (see http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icfive0.html), the realm of the earth trigram in general, and 02 in particular, covers a realm of unconditional filtration - our response is 'pure' to the stimulus, there is no mediation, no consideration of 'alternatives'. Mediation is reflected through YANG, to 'bring out' an archetype *I* must DO something, insert energy.

> What is its
> source? (apply 48). Whatever the question is, the answer is
> always hex 2. This seems to fit the nature of hex 2 quite
> well. It remains itself in all circumstances.


Thats right - it *contains* all but passively, to bring out one I must 'energise' it. If my energising is 'pure' then I get back the 'pure' archetype.


> How does 52 solve problems? (apply 21). This method gives 15
> and that looks more plausible to me than 55, the result of
> the symmetric method.
>

? there is no symmetry involved. Since the yin lines in X are ignored so we see the asymmetry when we apply energy. If we flipped yin into yang and yang into yin there would be no assymmetry. Perhaps you issue with 55 is due to interpretation of what it represents?

52 - by its nature - is focused on reaction in the form of being stopped, blocked and that dynamic being refined through becoming proactive by intentional stopping/blocking and so the actions of what we call 'discernment'.

the 21-ness in 52, based on the above X->Y->Z pattern makes us 21 -> 52 -> 55

A fundamental association in 55 is a focus on dealing with too much, abundance, overflowing, includes too many criminals as it does too many non-criminals! What is rooted here is a need for, the use of, discernment. IOW the 'problem solving' skills of 55 are described by analogy to characteristics of 55 - overflowing needs 'controlling', discernment.

In the binary ordering, 52 and 15 make a pair. 15 is unconditional in its 'levelling', 52 is conditional (and so 'discerning') - They BOTH deal, generically, with 'levelling', evening-out, modesty.

The single line difference reflects a difference sourced in hex 23, the hex 'controlling' line 6. We can view this from a PAIR perspective of 02/23 if you like. A yin top line means the focus is like that of 02 - unconditional, a yang top line reflects a focus of 23 - conditional, where the focus is on clearing chaff from wheat, housekeeping, making a PARTICULAR perspective, and so a conditional, 'clear'. IOW we can see the levelling nature in both, but 52 is 'picky', 15 does not care.

In 15 we have its 21-ness, its method of problem solving, as: 21 -> 15 -> 30

What THIS indicates is the use of guidance, a sense of 'direction', an ideology, is used by 15 to solve problems. This reflects a degree of unconditional idealism, the levelling-out, the evening-out. A strong focus on stopping/blocking WITHIN the overall 'yin' nature of being unconditional. The focus we find in 15 of keeping the words close to the facts means to run 'in tandem' and so maintain the one direction, no exaggerations, no highs, no lows. This is hard to do WITHOUT using the discerning mind to focus on what is required.

All of this said, I think there is more here from a universal perspective possibly sourced in the line patterns of 1, 2, 63, and 64 - and note that in my ICPlus work I can create a lot of 'binary' sequences, but all DERIVED from the 'core' sequence derived from recursion of yin/yang. Somehow the SAME rules apply to these sequences but the representing of the POTENTIAL is now a PARTICULAR - e.g. I can map out the recursion of 23-to-43 in the form of a sequence of hexagrams. Using the same principles as described above, the 'potential' hexagram is now 23, and so our pool of archetypes is 'skewed' to reflect a 23 bias. I have no idea where all of THAT will take us - we need to learn to walk before we run! ;-)

Chris.

 

[martin]

Hi Chris,

You wrote 'I think above you have the direction wrong. Look at it as X -> Y -> Z. We change nothing in X - we just change in Y those lines that correspond to the YANG lines in X - this process giving us Z.'

No problem so far because changing the lines in X that correspond to the yang lines in Y gives the same result.
In the way you define it X and Y are interchangeable, in fact Z = X xor Y = Y xor X.
However, I did have the direction wrong in my examples.
The answer to 'how does 2 do 21?' (X=21, Y=2) is 21 and not 2.
2 is the answer to 'how does 21 do 2?' (X=2, Y=21) according to the method that I proposed (your answer is again 21).

What I do is in fact Z = X and not Y. Negate the filter, then 'and' it with X.
if X=2 the answer is always 2, the filter doesn't matter. The 2-ness of every hex is 2.
I leave the philosophical (?) implications to you.

For the 21-ness of 52 we get:
21 xor 52 = 55
21 and not 52 = 21 and 58 = 51

And for the 52-ness of 21:
52 xor 21 = 55
52 and not 21 = 52 and 48 = 15

Hopefully no typos!

 

[martin]

I think, by the way, that the definition that I used (in fact) in my earlier post might be better.
That would be Z = not X and Y. Negate X, then AND with the filter.
But it's difficult to decide. I guess that each of the possible 8 operations XoY that are not commutative make 'sense'. Do they correspond to trigrams?
Okay, first walk ..

 

[martin]

Hmm, 4 of these operations are useless because X and Y don't 'interact'.
These are Z = X, Z = Y, Z = not X and Z = not Y.
Making progress, only 4 left!

 

[lightofdarkness]

Hi Martin,


you wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> You wrote 'I think above you have the direction wrong. Look
> at it as X -> Y -> Z. We change nothing in X - we just
> change in Y those lines that correspond to the YANG lines in
> X - this process giving us Z.'
>
> No problem so far because changing the lines in X that
> correspond to the yang lines in Y gives the same result.
> In the way you define it X and Y are interchangeable, in
> fact Z = X xor Y = Y xor X.

There are qualitative differences to consider here. It is like the difference between +1/-1 where the absolute values are 'swappable', vs 0/infinity where the absolute values are NOT swappable. IOW there is a unidirection in the latter, bidirection in the former. +1/-1 is a 'full wave' perspective, sine wave interference; 0/infinity (or just 0/+1) is a 'half wave' perspective, pulses not full waves.

> However, I did have the direction wrong in my examples.
> The answer to 'how does 2 do 21?' (X=21, Y=2) is 21 and not
> 2.

The focus on the 2-ness of 21 is different to the 2-ness 'doing' 21. 2-ness OF 21 focuses on 21, 2-ness doing 21 focuses on 2. There is a need to be careful in the terms. IOW the focus on 21 -> 02 -> 21. OTOH, If I ask for the order 02 -> 21 I must get 02, reflecting the potential is always a potential.

Categorically, 02 reflects total integration and so all is connected together but in that connection all is balanced and so no actualisation, there is no energy, no exaggerations. When you try to see this is any hexagram all you see is the whole pool of potentials. If 02 becomes Y then any X will be 'reflected' such that Z=X. 'perfect' reflection of the archetype.

The term 'how does 21 do 2' needs to be worded better, the focus is on the nature of 'problem solving' (21) and what is the '02-ness' of 21. What is '02-ness'? the hexagram here focuses on potentials, total trust in what could be. Thus I would say that "devotional" 'problem solving' means consideration of all potentials.


> 2 is the answer to 'how does 21 do 2?' (X=2, Y=21) according
> to the method that I proposed (your answer is again 21).
>

My prose focused on the 21 -> 02 -> 21. Your wording in fact covers 02 -> 21 -> 02! ;-)

The wordings need refinement. The focus is on the expression of X in/of/through Y where the description is by analogy to hexagram Z. "how does 21 do 2" can be a little confusing in that it allows for the confusing of positions of 21/02. Thats why I find 'through' easier to use, as in "what is the expression of 02 through 21?" -These words order the hexagram numbers into the correct slots of X -> Y -> Z. Asking 'how does 21 do 2' means that mentally we have to swap "21 do 02" to fit X -> Y pattern.

We are trying to 'squeeze' 02 through the 21 filter. Since 02 is all potentials so it fits through all of the filter, nothing is filtered-out and we get Z=02 (and so Z=X)

There are differences here in terms of IN a context vs THROUGH a context.

Thus X IN Y is hexagram X (or trigram X) as text operating in a context of Y. Hexagrams reflect this with a top trigram operating in a context set by the bottom trigram.

The X THROUGH Y perspective is different where X is trying to pass through the context that acts as a filter. It is akin to the bottom trigram not as context but as something 'covered up' by that context, hidden behind/in, that context and the top trigram is the context and the full hexagram the expression.

.. but as I said, need to walk first... ;-)

Chris.

 

[martin]

Hi Chris,

You wrote:
"We are trying to 'squeeze' 02 through the 21 filter. Since 02 is all potentials so it fits through all of the filter, nothing is filtered-out and we get Z=02 (and so Z=X)"

Err, no, your method (XOR) gives Z=21 here, not Z=02.
Z=02 is what I get when I use the formula Z=X and not Y (Y=21 is the filter) ...

 

[martin]

In case anyone else is reading this (Hello!

), if you are not familiar with AND, XOR, etcetera and would like to have a definition, please ask!

 

[lightofdarkness]

Hi Martin,

LOL! of course - I got dyslexic! ;-) - reflected in my own comments about the wordings!

yes, since we apply 02 -> 21 -> 21 there are no changes in 21 as Y (no yang lines in 02 to cause a flip) and we get the pure form of 21 as Z. the actual of the potential.

If we do 21 -> 02 -> 21 there are changes in 02 to a degree that we get a reflection of 21 - perfect translation.

We do 21 -> 21 -> 02 where the self-referencing brings out the potential.

In the brain the focus is on an XOR/AND relationship that is still symmetric and it develops into an asymmetric form of IMP/AND.

It is the IMP pattern that gives us an ordering as probabilities in expression from 'best fit' to 'worst fit'.

Issues come when the XOR draws something out of the AND that is more complex than the XOR, or more so not reducable - this gets us into dealing with paradox which the brain tries to resolve through time by oscillations, jumping through all possible XOR expressions 'randomly'.

(see http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/paradox.html)

The line position patterns as covered so far reflect the extraction of the 'genetic code' for a hexagram where we can map out its expressions given all 64 'genes' we get at that level of recursion (2^6).

We can shift levels of analysis as we move to finer resolutions - 4096 (2^12) - but the same rules apply - we just get more details.

What is of interest is that the mapping of DNA codes to the same patterns as IC codes suggests that this encoding of all qualities in each is in some way reflected in the DNA code system.

IOW the coding system the brain uses at the level of consciousness is a replication of that used at the microbiology level, but with finer distinctions etc - fractals all the way ;-)

Chris.

 

[hilary]

I've only read half way down this thread so far, so please forgive me if this has already been said.

The process Chris is describing, of changing one hexagram according to the positions of yang lines in another, is the same as the one described by Andreas Schoter and Stephen Karcher as Change Operators. (See http://www.yijing.co.uk - the 'papers' section, and the algebraic ones.) Martin, you may well be happy here, if you are algebraically inclined...

As Chris describes it:
"Look at it as X -> Y -> Z. We change nothing in X - we just change in Y those lines that correspond to the YANG lines in X - this process giving us Z."
In other words, X would be the yang operator. Y would be the primary hexagram. Z would be the relating one. (There's also a yin operator, the complement of X.)

I have been grappling for a good few years now with change operators/ change patterns and what they represent in readings, in practice - readings, that is, where the changing lines are generated in the usual way, and then you look to find what change patterns are at work.

Which probably means it's time I read and re-read the rest of this thread...