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Three foxes in the field

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svenrus

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On the seventh of July I received this answer from I Ching: 40,2,4.

I still feel that this reply is in play; I'm still in the situation.

And I have read that foxes in China means tricky spirits and so on.

My question is simply: Does the number three means something special ?

(John Blofeld's comment on this line: "Three birds with one stone". In Denmark: Kill two flies in one snap.)
 
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sooo

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Maybe they were hunting three little piggies.
One big, bad wolf had no luck no matter how much he'd huff and puff.
But one fox per piggy house would surely be enough
to trick the piggies and call their bluff.

One would be luck,
two a natural couple,
but three magi follow a star,
destiny led from afar.

Three coins create a line.
Three lines create an image.

I can't say these are true;
three can mean just a few.
 

Annamaria

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Hi Sven,
I guess I have missed to congratulate you on your birthday so I would like to do it now:
Happy Birthday!
I hope you spent it with your family and friends!
Well I really hope that we can continue having an open communication and be able to discuss divination in an unbaised and friendly manner.
Oops i did not really answered your question I hope it is ok?:rofl:
Regards,
Anna
 

pocossin

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Hatcher:
40.2
On the hunt, taking three foxes
Claiming the golden arrow
Persistence is timely

To get three is exceptionally good marksmanship. If you perform, your excellence will be acknowledged.
 

bradford

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If you want to see all the occurrences of San (Three), do a search for "5415" in my pdf matrix translation.
It pops up in lots of contexts, but I don't see any fixed symbolic meaning.
 

kafuka

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I'm not sure if it can be applied in some way but professor Zhang Guangde says in his book about three:

Three is the root of understanding
The character 王 is composed of the figure 三 connected by a vertical line.
The three horizontal lines represent Heaven, Man and Earth. One needs to understand perfectly these three parts to be able to govern a country.

Three indicated the numerous
A single character 木 - tree or plank
林 - wood or a small forest
森 - a large forest

Three signifies respect
During a wedding one bows three times.
It's disrecpectful to knock more than three times.

Three signifies the limit.
Never make the same mistake three times. - Chinese proverb
 
S

svenrus

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Hi Sven,
I guess I have missed to congratulate you on your birthday so I would like to do it now:
Happy Birthday!
I hope you spent it with your family and friends!
Well I really hope that we can continue having an open communication and be able to discuss divination in an unbaised and friendly manner.
Oops i did not really answered your question I hope it is ok?:rofl:
Regards,
Anna

It's allright. And good wishes for You too.
 
S

svenrus

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Thanks. Just remembered Lao Tze about three being the basis for The 10.000 of things.
And, I'm not sure here - but once heard that a group of people (Polynesia ??) had the "One, Two, Many"-term.
Quote:
"Hatcher:
40.2
On the hunt, taking three foxes
Claiming the golden arrow
Persistence is timely"

To: On the hunt, taking many foxes.... (?)
 

rosada

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I think of the expression "Three's a charm" meaning if you can do something right three times it's not just luck, rather you've truly mastered the skill.
 

charly

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On the seventh of July I received this answer from I Ching: 40,2,4.
... My question is simply: Does the number three means something special ? ...

Hi, Svenrus:

You've asked about the meaning of three in 40.2, I believe that the sense is MANY, ENOUGH or, at least, NO SCARCE. In this case, the three FOXES of 40.2 are maybe the FRIENDS that will arrive in 40.4.

See that H.40 is, in general, good. jie3, a character composed by horn + knife + cow, can be translated as RELEASE, LIBERATION (1), among many other meanings (2).

That's why, I believe, that the THREE FOXES of 40.2 were COUGHT and LIBERATED, not killed as in W/B version. Say, the foxes became GRATEFUL FRIENDS, that granted the GOLDEN ARROW, a PRIZE or a MAGIC TOOL (foxes are alwys magic in China) for the GENEROSITY of the CAPTOR.

If we are able of passing over ...

a) the stingy unique point of view «I hate foxes», «they are bad bugs, horrible beings» and

b) the narrow minded binary opposition «foxes are our enemies», «it´s a matter of life or death», «it´s our life or their lives» no middle point ...

... if we can access the 3rd. level of dialectic superation we would UNDERSTAND THAT THINGS ARE MORE COMPLEX and SOLUTIONS more variated (3). Not only that foxes and we can live in the same world but that we can be even FRIENDS and enjoy reciprocal SATISFACTION (4).

40.2


田獲三狐
tian2 huo4 san1 hu2
(IN THE) FIELD CATCHING THREE FOXES
Or in HUNTING, catching three foxes:

得黃矢
de2 huang2 shi3
GETTING YELLOW ARROW
Gaining a GOLDEN ARROW,
not an ordinary weapon but a de luxe one.

貞吉
zhen1 ji2
OMEN LUCKY
Divination lucky,
previsibly fortunate.

If we release not a single casually met fox, not only two foxes, but THREE, we get the upper grade of comprehension and piety and we deserve to be REWARDED with special powers or a magic tool, also a token of identity as brothers of our GRATEFUL FRIENDS ready to save us from future DANGEROUS TROUBLES.

To asume being BROTHERS of the FOXES is to be upgraded to a FOXY INTELLIGENCE, beyond good and evil, beyond conventional morality.

This reading of 40.2, based on literal translation of the received chinese text, is consistent with 40.6, another line where the chinese text doesn´t say that the animal be killed.

A fanciful etymology: character xie3 casual encounter, prejudice-free love, is a compund of HORN + BULL + KNIFE, release, to which a radical CROSSROAD + WALKING FOOT was added at the left. Readable as «Horny Bull with his Knife, Walking at the Crossroad (destiny, fate).

Believe it or not.

All the best,


Charly

_______________________
(1) Like in «People's Liberation Army»
(2) Like to split, to dismembrate, to break and another bloody meanings.
(3) Jie also means to UNDERSTAND and to SOLVE.
(4) Jie3 is the protograph of xie3, CASUAL ENCOUNTER, a meaning close to H.44 gou, which send us to sexual meanings, but that's another story...

Ch.
 
S

svenrus

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Hi, Svenrus:

............

That's why, I believe, that the THREE FOXES of 40.2 were COUGHT and LIBERATED, not killed as in W/B version. Say, the foxes became GRATEFUL FRIENDS, that granted the GOLDEN ARROW, a PRIZE or a MAGIC TOOL (foxes are alwys magic in China) for the GENEROSITY of the CAPTOR.

.........

Hi Charly

Interesting that they, the foxes, weren't hunted down or killed, but captured and released.
1. In the field bagging three foxes......
2. In the hunting field, getting three foxes.....
3. The second line undivided, shows its subject catch, in hunting, three foxes......
4. Wang Bi got Hunts down three foxes....
5. Richard Wilhelm got kills three foxes....

At John Blofeld they are killed. At Alfred Huang they are caught. At Stephen Karcher they are captured. At G.C. Richter You bag them

-------
1) I Ching, the classic of changes; the second-century Mawangdui texts. E.L. Shaughnessy. Ballntine books1996.
2) Zhouyi, the book of changes. A bronzeage document. Richard Rutt. Routledge 2002
3) The I Ching. The book of China. James Legge.tynron Press 1990
4) The Classic of changes. Richard J. Lynn. Columbia University Press, N.Y. 1994
5) Richard Wilhelm/Baynes. Routledges. London 1968
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?wdqb=c:*獲*&wdrst=1'To catch'
 

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sooo

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Foxes in lore and reality are known for their cunningness. Wilhelm likens this to flattery, which I think is one kind of cunning, but flattering oneself happens most frequently. Just as well it relates to belittlement, the other face of flattery. And let's not forget that rascal, deception, mostly self-deception. When one captures those foxes, that is meritorious.

Since the context in question is 40, I think letting them go is appropriate.
 
S

sooo

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Thanks, Bruce:

You also will get your golden arrow!

Yours,

Charly

3133252_std.jpg
 

bradford

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Common attested meanings for huo4 are catch or take. But also hit.
In the Shijing (127.2) it is written "When he lets off an arrow, he hits."
So in this context and in this period it can mean shoots, strikes or hits
(and presumably kills). Although death is not in any of the glosses
one ought not expect a fox to survive an arrow.
I just translate:
On the hunt, taking three foxes; Claiming the golden arrow
and let the reader assume they didn't survive.

Recently on a friend's farm I had to help "take" two foxes, who were dispatched with
the blessing of the Division of Wildlife, after laying 28 pheasants to waste between them,
despite the birds being kept in a fairly sturdy aviary. They outsmarted their way in.
 

charly

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charly

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Similar characters, different left radicals:

huo4 to catch, to obtain, to capture
huo4 reap, harvest
huo4 trap
hu4 protect

Ch.
 
S

sooo

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Take, hit, release, it's all intended as the same metaphor. Why major in minors?
 
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svenrus

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If lookin at the fox as uncanny I guess, one should be careful about killing it. If lookin at it in the common way ie. as a pest, one could even be paid for to get rid of it. When it is mentioned that there are exactly three of them one could wonder if the fox in this case is looked at as uncanny.
In the book Chinese symbolism and art Motifs C.A.S. Williams refers to it this way:
" Foxes are regarded as uncanny creatures by the Chinese, able to assume human shapes and work endless mischief (chiefly in love affairs) upon those who may be unfortunate enough to fall under their spell..." Another place in the same book he refers to three stages of ages, fifty, hundred and thousand years old foxes firstly can take shape of a woman, next "can assume the appearance of a young and beautiful girl, or otherwise, if so minded, of a wizard, possessing all the power of magic" and third "becomes the celestrial fox which occurs in a golden colour and possesses nine tails...."
One would be carefull killing a hundred years old fox if believing it to possess all the power of magic...

.... but if getting rid of a dusin of pests or more one would surely be rewarded.

But who can tell which of those two views on the fox was in force at the time it was written ?
 
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sooo

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If lookin at the fox as uncanny I guess, one should be careful about killing it. If lookin at it in the common way ie. as a pest, one could even be paid for to get rid of it. When it is mentioned that there are exactly three of them one could wonder if the fox in this case is looked at as uncanny.
In the book Chinese symbolism and art Motifs C.A.S. Williams refers to it this way:
" Foxes are regarded as uncanny creatures by the Chinese, able to assume human shapes and work endless mischief (chiefly in love affairs) upon those who may be unfortunate enough to fall under their spell..." Another place in the same book he refers to three stages of ages, fifty, hundred and thousand years old foxes firstly can take shape of a woman, next "can assume the appearance of a young and beaitiful girl, or otherwise, if so minded, of a wizard, possessing all the power of magic" and third "becomes the celestrial fox wich occurs in a golden colour and possesses nine tails...."
One would be carefull killing a hundred years old fox if believing it to possess all the power of magic...

.... but if getting rid of a dusin of pests or more one would surely be rewarded.

But who can tell which of those two views on the fox was in force at the time it was written ?
The same mythological significance is given to coyotes by indigenous peoples, and I've witnessed comical and seemingly magical stunts by these tricksters, yet to a rancher whose livelihood depends on their calves growing to thousand pound cattle in a year's time, coyotes are shot on sight with no second thought given, and who can blame the rancher, or the farmer whose chickens are being stolen by local foxes? But they can be just as tricky and illusive to one as to the other. That's why I think that whether the said fox is killed or released is irrelevant to its meaning. The point is that it is recognized for what it is, which isn't the same in every reading's case. To one it's a magical omen, to another it's a thief. In this conversation, it appears that the fox's trick is to miss the shot entirely by diverting attention to something other than itself; foxes and coyotes are particularly gifted in this craft.
 
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svenrus

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Btw Sooo: "Carpe Diem"; "Dead Poets Society", Robin Williams: R.I.P.
 
S

sooo

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Btw Sooo: "Carpe Diem"; "Dead Poets Society", Robin Williams: R.I.P.

His suicide yesterday was a shock to even his closest friends, though it's been known he's been in and out of rehab. Sad to say the least. A brilliant man, comedian and actor. He certainly did seize the day.
 

bradford

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I can't figure out if Carpe Diem means
"seize the carp" or "the carp is God."
Either way, it sounds pretty deep.
 

charly

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Did you just decide to ignore the Shijing usage?
I don't, Brad:

But I believe that there is not such a Shijing usage but the way Legge translated de verse, which is far from being literal.

In a literary stile, Legge decided to use HIT Iinstead of CATCH in Shijing 127. In Yijing 40.2 he translated CATCH which is the standard sense.

In letting the arrow fly and hit I believe to perceive some common place, some reminiscense of homeric poetry that maybe affected Legge.

About 40.2 I'm thinking that it doesn´t say that the ARROW be ONE and that it doesn't say the GENRE of the foxes.

This lack of accuracy is an attribute of chinese and even more common in divinatory works, the consecquences for the story behind the text can be interesting.

All the best,

Charly
 

charly

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... But who can tell which of those two views on the fox was in force at the time it was written ?
Hi, Svenrus:

I believe most probable that both. Maybe you already know Kang Xiaofei, if not here there is a pdf SEX WITH FOXES:


Daughters denounced arranged marriages, wives escaped conjugal duties, concubines won legal status, and old maids secured master's permission to marry. In these stories, women were freed by having sex with foxes!

Fantasy an Power in Traditional Chinese Stories by Kang Xiaofei

Women LIBERATION indeed!

Yours,


Charly
 

charly

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The same mythological significance is given to coyotes by indigenous peoples, and I've witnessed comical and seemingly magical stunts by these tricksters, yet to a rancher whose livelihood depends on their calves growing to thousand pound cattle in a year's time, coyotes are shot on sight with no second thought given, and who can blame the rancher, or the farmer whose chickens are being stolen by local foxes? But they can be just as tricky and illusive to one as to the other. That's why I think that whether the said fox is killed or released is irrelevant to its meaning. The point is that it is recognized for what it is, which isn't the same in every reading's case. To one it's a magical omen, to another it's a thief. In this conversation, it appears that the fox's trick is to miss the shot entirely by diverting attention to something other than itself; foxes and coyotes are particularly gifted in this craft.
Hi, Bruce:

There are oppsite points of view about TO WHOM THE HEN BELONGS. People think that the hen belong to his owner. Foxes feel that hens belong to them. And both, people an foxes agree that the hen has no right on her own life and that she is predestined to be eaten.

Maybe all, we and them, belong to THE ONE.

OF COURSE, COMMON PEOPLE SIMPATHIZE MORE WITH BREER FOX THAN WITH GENTLEMEN.

Yours,


Charly
 
S

sooo

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I can't figure out if Carpe Diem means
"seize the carp" or "the carp is God."
Either way, it sounds pretty deep.

I've always understood it to mean "seize the day", but as you know, I'm no translator. I just looked it up in Wiki, and it says: "taken from a poem written in the Odes in 23 BC by the Latin poet Horace, Book 1, number 11." I have wondered about Diem and Deity though I assumed it meant "day". Forgive my compulsion to story tell but I'm reminded of the owner of a Christian recording studio I've done work for locally, and how he'd brag that everything he and the studio did was to the Glory of Jesus Christ. He'd also scoff at the notion of any other god, naturally. I just wrote and played the electric guitar parts and paid no attention to the lyrics, since I already did my 20 years in music ministry and put it all behind me, thank you very much. One song he wrote was called Laus Deo, which roughly translates to Praise Deity, in Latin, but doesn't specify any particular deity. It could have just as easily referred to Zeus. I chuckled inside and said nothing, just played.

For the translator in you:
Carpe is the second-person singular present active imperative of carpō 'pick or pluck' used by Ovid to mean "enjoy, seize, use, make use of".[1] Diem is the accusative case of the noun "dies" 'day'. A more literal translation of "Carpe diem" would thus be "enjoy the day" or "pluck the day [as it is ripe]"—i.e. to enjoy the moment.

I rather prefer "seize the day" as my intended meaning. Not so deep really. Perhaps a bit of gua 19 with a bite of 21.
 
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svenrus

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The reason why I commented "Carpe Diem" was that Robin William asks his students what that mean in his movie "Dead Poets Society" and hearing about his dead yesterday reminded me that Sooo uses this signature here on the forum; but it seems that Sooo didn't got it from the movie (?) Robin as John Keating teach his students that it means catch the day in the opening of that movie....
 

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