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bruce
Guest
LOL, tell that to the leopard.
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bruce
Guest
chances are you?ve seen this before, but in case it?s been awhile.. sorta puts things into perspective
The idea that somehow creation revolves around man, to me, is way off the mark.
The idea that somehow creation revolves around man, to me, is way off the mark.
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bruce
Guest
Most who subscribe to creationism believe that man is the central creation of God, Void. Even when it isn't expressed directly, the egocentric nature of man's self importance is evident everywhere, especially in religion. If you're not one who thinks this way, fine. But imo, when someone speaks of good and evil, they haven't taken a good enough look at the universe, as through Hubble's eye.
"But isn't that still our own human projection... On the other hand, what if nature knew nothing of cruel or kind? That would make us humans look pretty delusional, wouldn?t it?"
I think you're right about *nature/physics* not knowing cruel nor kind. But the end result is still that we get to live a life - for the majority (I think) this ends up being good, not bad. Thus, I see it as 90% good/benevolent.
Also, as you know, the Yi works. What does that suggest - to me, an intelligence embedded in reality. It doesn't play favorites, it won't bend the rules (at least so far as we're aware) but it's benevolent in that the *system* grants life.
But yes, you're certainly right in asserting that we humans are a delusional bunch. Can't argue with you there...
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"Jeff all things evolve and change yes ? There have not always been people, lions or lambs. Therefore the relation between life forms also may not remain the same for ever. "
I guess I didn't make my view clear. What you say is certainly true, at least as a possibility; however even in a world totally "at peace", the reality of change entails the destruction of what currently is - therefore, death and loss. For pretty much any sentient organism, that isn't going to be fun. (Although Rosada's rather fortuitous Q/A above, along with numerous religious teachings, suggest the possiblity of transcending our negative reaction to the change we must all go through.)
Furthermore, it appears the world hasn't been "at peace" since carnivores evolved. It sounds wonderful to suggest "the lion laying down with the lamb" but I doubt that's ever been true. Wouldn't the lion be starving itself? So, it's hurting itself instead. The necessity of destruction is built into a predator's (and even an herbivore's) physical nature. Even herbivores destroy the homes of whatever symbiotes and parasites live on the plant they eat, no? That's simply the reality of what *has been* so far, as far as I know, from what Biology and Natural History tell us. I do agree that the above *doesn't* mean it's impossible for "the relationship between organisms" to change to something less destructive in the future.
- Jeff
I think you're right about *nature/physics* not knowing cruel nor kind. But the end result is still that we get to live a life - for the majority (I think) this ends up being good, not bad. Thus, I see it as 90% good/benevolent.
Also, as you know, the Yi works. What does that suggest - to me, an intelligence embedded in reality. It doesn't play favorites, it won't bend the rules (at least so far as we're aware) but it's benevolent in that the *system* grants life.
But yes, you're certainly right in asserting that we humans are a delusional bunch. Can't argue with you there...
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"Jeff all things evolve and change yes ? There have not always been people, lions or lambs. Therefore the relation between life forms also may not remain the same for ever. "
I guess I didn't make my view clear. What you say is certainly true, at least as a possibility; however even in a world totally "at peace", the reality of change entails the destruction of what currently is - therefore, death and loss. For pretty much any sentient organism, that isn't going to be fun. (Although Rosada's rather fortuitous Q/A above, along with numerous religious teachings, suggest the possiblity of transcending our negative reaction to the change we must all go through.)
Furthermore, it appears the world hasn't been "at peace" since carnivores evolved. It sounds wonderful to suggest "the lion laying down with the lamb" but I doubt that's ever been true. Wouldn't the lion be starving itself? So, it's hurting itself instead. The necessity of destruction is built into a predator's (and even an herbivore's) physical nature. Even herbivores destroy the homes of whatever symbiotes and parasites live on the plant they eat, no? That's simply the reality of what *has been* so far, as far as I know, from what Biology and Natural History tell us. I do agree that the above *doesn't* mean it's impossible for "the relationship between organisms" to change to something less destructive in the future.
- Jeff
hilary
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From the age of about 4, I started getting really vexed with the Christian message I was hearing (Church school, Sunday school, and all) about humans being the summit of creation. And one of the things that could raise me to greatest indignation was that stuff about the lion lying down with the lamb. And who, exactly, are we to tell the lion what to do? (Shades of a furiously ranting 8 year old mini-H.)
I didn't have much religious education so I didn't know 'we' did 'tell' the lion to lay down with the lamb. You mean humans told them to ?? I never heard that before.
I never had much religious education nor ever met a 'creationist' in my life - I don't think theres many around in the UK - so none of this stuff holds a great deal of emotional charge for me. It clearly does for some so I see theres no point in me trying to talk about it here. To me its just thoughts.
Jeff yes I'm with you I think you understand what I was trying to talk about.
I never had much religious education nor ever met a 'creationist' in my life - I don't think theres many around in the UK - so none of this stuff holds a great deal of emotional charge for me. It clearly does for some so I see theres no point in me trying to talk about it here. To me its just thoughts.
Jeff yes I'm with you I think you understand what I was trying to talk about.
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bruce
Guest
Void, who wrote the religious books that say "and the lion shall lie down with the lamb" if not people? You've never met someone who believes in God and creation? Thirdly, this has nothing to do with emotional charging. It has to do with the size and content of ones vision and their ability to think beyond themselves.
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jesed
Guest
Just a little word:
When Bible said "the lion laying down with the lamb" wasn't talk about lions and lambs... was talking about social relationships in Israel.
The prophecy (more a expectative?) for a new social pact, a refoundation of the nation based on justice and solidarity (the rich=lion wouldn't exploit the poor=lamb)
Is a metaphora, not to take it literally.
When Bible said "the lion laying down with the lamb" wasn't talk about lions and lambs... was talking about social relationships in Israel.
The prophecy (more a expectative?) for a new social pact, a refoundation of the nation based on justice and solidarity (the rich=lion wouldn't exploit the poor=lamb)
Is a metaphora, not to take it literally.
hilary
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Very interesting point, Jesed, thank you.
Hey, Void, I was 8! The emotional charge is still there - I still don't like the passage (at least I didn't before Jesed's post) but I've kind of distanced from it a bit.
Bruce, if a 'creationist' is someone who thinks evolution isn't a valid part of science, then it's true that you're less likely to meet one over here. Or to hear a lot about their political activity, anyway.
Hey, Void, I was 8! The emotional charge is still there - I still don't like the passage (at least I didn't before Jesed's post) but I've kind of distanced from it a bit.
Bruce, if a 'creationist' is someone who thinks evolution isn't a valid part of science, then it's true that you're less likely to meet one over here. Or to hear a lot about their political activity, anyway.
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bruce
Guest
Hilary, a creationist simply holds the belief that God created the universe.
Jesed:
Isa 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."
Isa 65:25 "The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
This was an image of absolute peace and non-violence among all God's creatures. I'm aware that Israel was also called the Lion, but Isaiah?s prophecy referred to the New Jerusalem, which was to come down to earth from heaven. It does not refer to literal Israel.
Jesed:
Isa 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."
Isa 65:25 "The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
This was an image of absolute peace and non-violence among all God's creatures. I'm aware that Israel was also called the Lion, but Isaiah?s prophecy referred to the New Jerusalem, which was to come down to earth from heaven. It does not refer to literal Israel.
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bruce
Guest
Btw, New Jerusalem is considered by most to be a spiritual state.
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jesed
Guest
Hi Bruce:
If you read Isaiah at the light of New Testament, I can agree with you. Because the "New Jerusalem which was to come down to earth from heaven" is a metaphora from the first generation of Cristians, specially the comunity of John.. see Book of Revelations in Cristian Bible
Now, if you read Isaiah in the context when he prophetized, is something else.
Chapter 11 is about the restablishment of monarchy after the punishment agaisnt Israel (previous chapters): a new leader who will reign fairly.
Chapter 65 is about the rebuilt of Jerusalem, when the People came back from Babylonia (as was predicted en chapter 11). So, not Jerusalem "come down from heaven", but rebuilted from the People. But not only rebuilt the material city, but the Nation.
The idea of Isaiah about the exile to Babylonia is that is consequence of People betraied the Alliance that founded Israel
So, now that the People had came back from exile
Isaiah understand it like new social pact, a refoundation of the nation based on justice and solidarity. (Jeremiah said the same, but with the metaphora of New Alliance)
Many prophets from Old Testament identify lions and wolves with political and religious leaders; whom "eat" the life and properties from the poors (lambs).
By the way... Lion as Nation is not Israel, but Juda.
If you read Isaiah at the light of New Testament, I can agree with you. Because the "New Jerusalem which was to come down to earth from heaven" is a metaphora from the first generation of Cristians, specially the comunity of John.. see Book of Revelations in Cristian Bible
Now, if you read Isaiah in the context when he prophetized, is something else.
Chapter 11 is about the restablishment of monarchy after the punishment agaisnt Israel (previous chapters): a new leader who will reign fairly.
Chapter 65 is about the rebuilt of Jerusalem, when the People came back from Babylonia (as was predicted en chapter 11). So, not Jerusalem "come down from heaven", but rebuilted from the People. But not only rebuilt the material city, but the Nation.
The idea of Isaiah about the exile to Babylonia is that is consequence of People betraied the Alliance that founded Israel
So, now that the People had came back from exile
Isaiah understand it like new social pact, a refoundation of the nation based on justice and solidarity. (Jeremiah said the same, but with the metaphora of New Alliance)
Many prophets from Old Testament identify lions and wolves with political and religious leaders; whom "eat" the life and properties from the poors (lambs).
By the way... Lion as Nation is not Israel, but Juda.
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bruce
Guest
Hi Jesed,
You're right, Juda is a tribe of Israel. Also correct that "New Jerusalem" is from Revelations, and therefore is a Christian concept of Isaiah.
As to whether the Lion which eats straw is literal or symbolic of the Spirit is, as with Yi, subject to interpretation. I can?t imagine a lion being a literal lion very long, though, with a diet of straw.
You're right, Juda is a tribe of Israel. Also correct that "New Jerusalem" is from Revelations, and therefore is a Christian concept of Isaiah.
As to whether the Lion which eats straw is literal or symbolic of the Spirit is, as with Yi, subject to interpretation. I can?t imagine a lion being a literal lion very long, though, with a diet of straw.
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jesed
Guest
jajajaja exactly Bruce...
thinking that the strongs won't exploit the weaks seems so unbelievable as a lion with a diet of straw... that's the miracle Isaiah proclaims that can be achieve if the Nation is loyal to the Alliance
In that time social/political/spiritual aspects was interrelationed... the most important spiritual task was the loyalty of the Nation to the Alliance... years later, this was changed with the influence of Greeks' cosmovision.
In any case...nowadays some would said that non-violence is a Mayor miracle in our world, and requieres great spirituality to achieve it.
Best wishes
thinking that the strongs won't exploit the weaks seems so unbelievable as a lion with a diet of straw... that's the miracle Isaiah proclaims that can be achieve if the Nation is loyal to the Alliance
In that time social/political/spiritual aspects was interrelationed... the most important spiritual task was the loyalty of the Nation to the Alliance... years later, this was changed with the influence of Greeks' cosmovision.
In any case...nowadays some would said that non-violence is a Mayor miracle in our world, and requieres great spirituality to achieve it.
Best wishes
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bruce
Guest
Best wishes to you too, Jesed.
Okay just pick your line carefully on the 'I Ching on the I Ching thread'. I just happened to do 25.3 the other day, and when I went to jump in my car this morning it was gone.
I hadn't tied it to a post but it was locked up as good as it could be, but thieves must have passed in the night. Fortunately there was not one copy of the I Ching in it.
I need to get to a line where someone gains a chariot pretty quick, uuum there isn't one where someone gets a chariot is there except 23,6 and thats gone....
BTW shortly after discovering the theft I went to the local shop. As I walked around the bend on the hill a car literally nearly killed me. It was going very fast, driver driving like a lunatic on a bend, came so close to me I had to flatten myself against the wall. Is this synchronicity ? It was just odd that when I was telling someone about the theft earlier I said "oh well maybe if I had of driven the car today I may have had an accident so who knows maybe its good luck I didn't have it". Funny then to go out on foot and have a near miss. I think I will stay in tonight, lol. Wish me luck !
I hadn't tied it to a post but it was locked up as good as it could be, but thieves must have passed in the night. Fortunately there was not one copy of the I Ching in it.
I need to get to a line where someone gains a chariot pretty quick, uuum there isn't one where someone gets a chariot is there except 23,6 and thats gone....
BTW shortly after discovering the theft I went to the local shop. As I walked around the bend on the hill a car literally nearly killed me. It was going very fast, driver driving like a lunatic on a bend, came so close to me I had to flatten myself against the wall. Is this synchronicity ? It was just odd that when I was telling someone about the theft earlier I said "oh well maybe if I had of driven the car today I may have had an accident so who knows maybe its good luck I didn't have it". Funny then to go out on foot and have a near miss. I think I will stay in tonight, lol. Wish me luck !
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jesed
Guest
Hi Void
Maybe there is no orther line about gain a chariot... but... what about "you lose material posesions.. you'll get them back in a time"?
Could it work for you?
best wishes
Maybe there is no orther line about gain a chariot... but... what about "you lose material posesions.. you'll get them back in a time"?
Could it work for you?
best wishes
I don't believe it !! I just threw the coins asking the Yi Jing if there was any meaning for me within the event of the theft of my car, as sometimes unexpected events can show things up you never thought of. You can guess what I threw 25, lines 1, 2 and 6. Not line 3 lol. There seems a contradiction in line 1 and 6, and line 2 I'm not sure about in this context. Any help would be much appreciated. Maybe getting 25 just means it was just one of those things that happen now again with no particular significance in ones life ?
Hi Jesed thanks for the suggestion
Hi Jesed thanks for the suggestion
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Just a short explanation to tell how it came I dared to post the lyrics of this old song of Oliver Onions reg. 30.2/3.
There was this unusually beautiful winters day in Austria a few days ago. I got an invitation from an aviator to get a place in his Cessna for a mountain flight. He were a patient I know from my ward and we were talking a lot about flying when he was very sick (me sharing his passion for flight). And he said we will fly together if he will ever be able to get out of the hospital in one piece (at this time, he didn't look very promising).
He had to undergo heart surgery but he managed somehow to retain his Private Pilot's Licence. We lost contact for nearly a year and then there came his call.
He is doing fine, but he has to take strong pills which are surpressing his body's ability to withstand infectious diseases, so he is aware that even a comparatively small infection can cost him his life anytime.
He was really looking as if he is living life to the fullest now. And the flight was amazing. He sent this song through the intercom when we were passing by the most magnificent mountain around. This was so unfair. :?-)
Wang Bi says about 30.3: "If one does not beat the earthenware pot and sing, one would have only the wail of the aged, which would mean misfortune."
So...
"Here we go..."
There was this unusually beautiful winters day in Austria a few days ago. I got an invitation from an aviator to get a place in his Cessna for a mountain flight. He were a patient I know from my ward and we were talking a lot about flying when he was very sick (me sharing his passion for flight). And he said we will fly together if he will ever be able to get out of the hospital in one piece (at this time, he didn't look very promising).
He had to undergo heart surgery but he managed somehow to retain his Private Pilot's Licence. We lost contact for nearly a year and then there came his call.
He is doing fine, but he has to take strong pills which are surpressing his body's ability to withstand infectious diseases, so he is aware that even a comparatively small infection can cost him his life anytime.
He was really looking as if he is living life to the fullest now. And the flight was amazing. He sent this song through the intercom when we were passing by the most magnificent mountain around. This was so unfair. :?-)
Wang Bi says about 30.3: "If one does not beat the earthenware pot and sing, one would have only the wail of the aged, which would mean misfortune."
So...
"Here we go..."
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bruce
Guest
Soshin,
Thanks for sharing that background.
I've heard two understandings of 30.3. One is as you said, and the other is to warn of excessive expressionism; promoting instead acceptance of old age gracefully. Sometimes one seems to apply, sometimes the other meaning seems a better fit.
Any other thoughts on this?
Thanks for sharing that background.
I've heard two understandings of 30.3. One is as you said, and the other is to warn of excessive expressionism; promoting instead acceptance of old age gracefully. Sometimes one seems to apply, sometimes the other meaning seems a better fit.
Any other thoughts on this?
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Test
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Can't believe uploading the picture worked... ;-)
I am with Wang Bi and Stephen Karcher here. But it is true, sometimes the other take on it (in my view the more confucian one - nothing wrong with it, just different) seems to apply.
But sometimes it seems to me that there is no such thing as chance, and I had only the Wang Bi and Karchers Vega Edition version handy for looking into the matter of 30.3.
Otherwise I would not have been remembered on that flight and I would not have posted the lyrics.
Namaste,
Soshin
I am with Wang Bi and Stephen Karcher here. But it is true, sometimes the other take on it (in my view the more confucian one - nothing wrong with it, just different) seems to apply.
But sometimes it seems to me that there is no such thing as chance, and I had only the Wang Bi and Karchers Vega Edition version handy for looking into the matter of 30.3.
Otherwise I would not have been remembered on that flight and I would not have posted the lyrics.
Namaste,
Soshin
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bruce
Guest
It looks like once again the Yi doesn't say what to do or which way to be, only laying bare the image to draw from, like a well. And as usual, moderation (even in banging pots) seems a good idea.
hilary
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I think I have heard the 'lament of great old age'. At the day centre where I help each Tuesday, we once got talking about old radio shows, and ended up asking people what single message they would broadcast out to the world, if they could. And a frail, melancholic old lady answered at once:
"I wish things could be more like they used to be."
The others there bang pots.
"I wish things could be more like they used to be."
The others there bang pots.
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bruce
Guest
60, and still
!
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Yeah, Bruce!
I surely hope I would be anything like you when I'm 60.
I surely hope I would be anything like you when I'm 60.
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bruce
Guest
Thanks, Soshin. What a nice thing to say.
Let your past be past, let old grievances go, and don't, as the old lady in Hilary's example said, ever "wish things could be more like they used to be". Keep Meng close to you; he's a good friend. With these, I'm sure you'll far surpass anything I've become, thus far. But watch your heels, cuz I'm just getting started.
Let your past be past, let old grievances go, and don't, as the old lady in Hilary's example said, ever "wish things could be more like they used to be". Keep Meng close to you; he's a good friend. With these, I'm sure you'll far surpass anything I've become, thus far. But watch your heels, cuz I'm just getting started.