Toki-Moai is a very powerful aid

[Tohpol]

Your post was very rich indeed and even if my basical believe in the unnecesary of suffering stands, I must recognize your depth of thought and richness of wisdom in your philosophy of life :bows:

Well, Laureet, I can say the same for you. I am looking forward to reading more of your thoughts :bows: Like Sophie mentioned I think it's very clear now that you are about as far removed from a spammer as it's possible to be - even though that "Latin temperament" took centre stage

Be aware that Aiki no michi is the art of converting a movement which the attacker believes is harmful in a harmless circular movement where the balance and strength of the attacker are lost. Never the attack arrives to the need of suffering...if you know where to stand and how to move for having the flow in your side :bows:

Yes, I agree. If I may just clarify with this example in mind. That is why, when we are proficient at studying the causes and reasons for our suffering ("converting a movement") we may grow beyond the suffering. There is no need to act against another. Nor is there a need for suffering but I see it as a natural consequence of swimming in this sea of ignorance of which we are all a part. Like all hindrances they allow us to learn and can be outgrown.

I would also like to comment on another of your posts about waves and forms which was fascinating. It reminded me of Sheldrake, Capra and even Viktor Schauberger's ideas...

Topal

 

[Tohpol]

I've been reading the development of this discussion with great interest. It's been my experience that symbols are powerful - in a way I can't quite understand. Like Topal, I was brought up to believe that one must work for one's benefits - it must be my Jewish and Calvinist legacy! - and that includes inner and outer transformation. But I can't deny that symbols have had a strong effect in my life (including runes, reiki symbols, tarot and of course, the Yi Jing - though that is more than symbolism, in my view), leading to some real breakthroughs without my being aware of having done any inner "work".

Don't get me wrong. REAL symbols can and do help us along the road. The interesting thing is how exactly they may help us in that quest and discerning the ones that are true and the ones that may be red herrrings. I think, as Laureet mentioned, they can act as tools and aids in helping us unlock all kinds of things, but there's lots of ways to become locked by not knowing what the hell we are dealing with! So much of the symbols and ciphers of the ancient past represent a "disjecta Membra" of ancient knowledge so much in advance of our own it's rather like the Sorcerer's apprentice in Fantasia. It boggles the mind how little we know.

Take Reiki symbols for example. Here's a wonderful healing energy practice that uses specific symbols. Well, in my own research on this, anything that is really pure inevitably becomes corrupted. And Reiki is an area where real caution is needed, at least in the US. Symbols can be inverted and messed about with, new variations and systems which were never in the original Reiki teachings. intent can be distorted and the purity of the original meaning and practice a pale reflection of what it once was.

That's why the black arts are so into all kinds of geometric and symbolic formulas and ciphers because they know that they can provide the quickest and the most direct way to achieve results. i.e. more power and more kudos.

What about crop circles? Now there's some classic symbols....

Topal

 

[laureet]

If you would elaborate on this a little more:

Quote:
Originally Posted by laureet View Post
Now, what happen when in some way we manage to reproduce the same pattern or form-shape in a place of space or time where we are not (yet) ?/end of quote

What some way might this be? Do you mean through something such as astral projection? And, does this always refer to future, or does it include such things as memories?

Thanks

Well, seemengly it may exist many ways as candidates: astral projection, imaginery, Alpha thinking, Mandala, PM, even ritualistic prayer or ritualistic charms creation. However, in my opinion, all have one single act in common and this is : to create that pattern in our minds , all other are helping tools. In some of those acts, as prayer or Alpha thinking, you have no idea of your "pattern" but you imagine its effects, a bit as if instead of poking the water in front of the floating leaf to attract it, you know nothing about poking but instead you know where you want the leaf to be and throw a stone to that exact point, a pattern will be produced and the leaf will be attracted and you didn't even need to know about patterns or so. Nevertheless, this works very crude and many times will not work because many other people are throwing their own stones in the water, so, the clarity of creating your most possible similar or accurate pattern will give you all the chances to succeed...therefore the creation of the pattern will be far more effective than the creation of only expected results in your mind.

We must realize (in my opinion) that all is mental and we have not yet a complete idea on the limits where mental and physical meet, we don't even know if the world we see "outside" is created in our minds "inside" based in signals we receive and relate with our learned images, or if the world we see"outside" is "projected" by ourselves in front and around us after the signals we receive and relate with learned images... even matter has been found to be just waves behaving sometimes as particles and fields.... but one thing has been proven constantly and this is that what we can imagine, we can find and whatever we imagine put as in afinity with that image and with anything having affinity with it... so...if we put in the mind the pattern we were talking about, through ANY mind on extra-corporeal technique, we will succeed.

Now the problem is that we can only imagine what we have seen, you cannot imagine a "loctrutisten" but you can imagine and you will in fact see just now in your mind, an elephant...So..for you can imprint in any place or time your pattern, you need to know how it looks and that is the use of having found your PM or form-shape.

About linear time, meaning future or past, it seems that linear time is our creation , for hardest that is to grasp this, in the mind there seems to be no linear time but just time encompassing past-present-future all at once. Interesting enough, most no industrialized/technological societies or societies with no socio-laboral structures, have a non linear concept of time, time is omnipresent as one only, the same in animals. Even some interesting scientific experiments related with how the expectations of an observer affect the results of an experiment, have shown that actions at present can modify things in the past ... so...as the characters of Richard Bach use to say..."there are no limits..."

 

[laureet]

Do twins have the same PM? Are toki-moai related to our DNA?

Sorry Sophie, I missed those questions in my previous reply.

The theory behind PM explains that it is impossible that two beings, even twins have the same PM, because they can differ in gender, they will differ in experiences and most probably in activities and careers for a few things, also they will never occupy the same exact space or time, but most important, they will also relate to each other, so while the pattern or form-shape of A will include his/her relation with B, in the pattern of B will not be included the relation with B also but with A instead, making them basically different.

It is curious to see that DNA is a spiral, I say curious because all traditions representing life as a flow, use the spiral for representing it, as in Koru, the original YinYang, Celtic treskels, Chinese art, Rykyuan designs and so. May be is not only our chemical imprint but also a kind of lineage imprint, I don't believe it is a short time (one life-one person) imprint because it doesn't change during the life of the person, it only changes through intercombination with other similar imprints and never itself, so I think (my opinion) DNA is a lineage imprint and could be interesting to know if exists such a thing as a family or lineage PM, something that could carry to your family, not to you only, all kinds of smooth sailing through life for generations to come... I have not heard of anything like that, but if PM exists, LM (lineage mandala) should also, isn't it? Maybe all those legends about blessed lineages or cursed families are just about that? ...could be an interesting research...:bows:

 

[laureet]

all true Masters I think, were precisely defined by that very confrontation from within. Their will, knowledge and love defined that battle and it is a battle that cannot be fought with eyes closed. Challenge is a prerequisite for growth and cannot be avoided. But it can be faced with dignity and a kind of akido of the soul. Jesus, Buddha, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, they took on suffering for the rest of us in very real ways.
Topal

I just wanted to express an opinion about your very wise words...

I think that challenge from within is not as challenge from outside, challenge from within is what gives birth to what carrries us through life: Intention.
Many people thinks in a universe with two poles as light and darkness, warm and cold, I prefer to follow the ancient philosophies which say that light is just a degree of darkness and warm is a degree of cold. All is dark until some Intention creates light and when the intention ceases, all is dark again, making that in true only dark exists by itself, light is just the result of intention, the same with warmth. Intention is born from challenge within, that need to create and the need to overcome we all have, and here is my point: that, is innate and doesn't need to be tried or tested or fed by outside suffering for pushing you to excel, it has its own life, it can be exacerbated by suffering and challenge but doesn't need it...

Those who guided and suffered for mankind acted with the ultimate act of love for others: self sacrifice, they were leaders and masters of love and the greatest teachers but (in my opinion) not all were necessarily true masters, even if some probably were.
Self-sacrifice is the mark of the supreme being, of utermost love for others, so is the taking the challenge of leading against the main stream as they did. They were supreme leaders, supreme beings and supreme teachers, nevertheless, many had human issues, many were having "normal" lifes eating sacrificed living beings or having the same problems and successes in private relationships as everyone else, this means some of them were not attaining the level of knowledge and wisdom which allows (theoretically) to step out from mainstream and work at the higher levels of Universal life, on the spirit of people, on the spirit of things and on the spirit of events, as this, in ancient philosophies is the essence and characteristic of a True Master.
True Leaders also differ from True Masters in that they provide answers to who asks and mainly keep trying to evolve in the study of the Universe and Life, while leaders give up such an isolation and self discovery journey in the benefit of teaching, transmitting and guiding mankind.
I personally admire and prefer the way of action of True Leaders and True Teachers as the ones you mentioned and many more, however, I just wanted to establish the distinction and the existence of True development and true wisdom without the need to suffer.

But... your points are very solid, because from stirring the water is that molecules find back their best order...sometimes, when something or anything is in disorder or confusion, a good stirring or impact will produce the effect to regain perfect order and maximum efficiency... like when you drop water from high over a surface which produces that the molecules of water after the crash get molecularly aligned (organized water) as is used in some healing systems, or even how we kick a piece of iron to make it powerfully magnetized... (or if you drop the book Black Swan in a convention of Yijing practicing businessmen ) (Sorry, joke interlude) Results will be faster and deeper perhaps than in a flow without challenge, even if at the cost of resources and energy...

So,yes, I agree that challenge even if unnecessary may prove an excellent thrust producing factor :bows:

 

[getojack]

Laureet,

Tibetan Buddhist mandalas are created with sand for a reason... to visually represent impermanence. Heaven and earth are swept away and thrown into the great river as soon as they are completed. Why should everything around you change, while your personal mandala stays the same? And what do you mean when you say your PM is unchanging, but that it changes "through intercombination with similar imprints"? Is it supposed to be unchanging or changing?

 

[laureet]

Take Reiki symbols for example. Here's a wonderful healing energy practice that uses specific symbols. Well, in my own research on this, anything that is really pure inevitably becomes corrupted. And Reiki is an area where real caution is needed, at least in the US. Symbols can be inverted and messed about with, new variations and systems which were never in the original Reiki teachings. intent can be distorted and the purity of the original meaning and practice a pale reflection of what it once was.

Unfortunately Ki (or Chi, Qi, etc) is probably the most widely overused , abused and bogusly used term from Chinese-Japanese philosophies and mainly martial arts and healing arts.
All kinds of bogus systems and bogus teachers hide behind it for fame and fortune. The problem is that also many honest, authentic and good minded people and systems also widely use the term in full right.
Many times is the "saints pay for sinners" arena and many honest teachings get bad fame because of the cheaters around. Also many times people honestly study and become "teachers" of a system which they honestly followed, without knowing that their teacher was bogus and what they learned has zero value.
How to separate true from fake is practically impossible for who has no previous deep knowledge in the subject... a Catch 22 situation...
If there is one question which could separate the true from the bogus (perhaps) is :
Can Ki give life or living energy? The answer cannot be Yes or Not or "sometimes yes and sometimes not", or it depends..., the answer is also not complex but very simple...However the true answer can be only recognized by who already knows ...catch 22

What about crop circles? Now there's some classic symbols....

Topal

Have you observed that the crop circles most difficult to explain are those which have been created as starting simultaneously in many points and from outside in, while the most easy to find who faked them are created from inside out?

 

[laureet]

Why should everything around you change, while your personal mandala stays the same?

Your PM doesn't stay the same, it is dynamic, it is not as a mandala with fixed forms, it is with lines of flow...think in you seated in a train (or other vehicle) and the train at the side moves...you might feel YOU are moving while to the observer you are static... for the observer your PM is static, but YOU, you move through its influence...

what do you mean when you say your PM is unchanging, but that it changes "through intercombination with similar imprints"? Is it supposed to be unchanging or changing?

Go again to the analogy with waves forms produced by a boat, if other boats go near yours, the waves will affect each other and yours will adapt, but will not loose its core or direction or connection with your boat...the same applies.

Tibetan Buddhist mandalas are created with sand for a reason... to visually represent impermanence. Heaven and earth are swept away and thrown into the great river as soon as they are completed.

The key is in the meaning of impermanence, it is not now exists- now it doesn't, things and mandalas and people don't cease to exist... Impermanence, in many philosophies including Tibetan Buddhism, refers to impermanence in one point and one time, it means flow, it means that when you erase a Mandala, you release it into another plane or dimension...Heaven and earth are not simply swept away, as you say, they are released into the great river to continue voyage... Souls (and mandalas) don't loose identity because of impermanence, they only seem to loose it... a bit as migrating birds... they have own identity and existence as each bird with its own life, then when it is time to migrate, they integrate into a flock, they seem to loose their individuality and act as whole with the flock, turn and go and make all maneuvers in perfect synchronicity without shouted orders or individual delays, in fact they loose individuality of action to a bigger unit, the flock, the river if you want, but for themselves they are still each separate entity. When is time to land, each one re-acquires individuality in a new environment, continue their individual experiences and so on all their lives... they have impermanence in one land or the other, but do not cease to exist... We, souls and mandalas might be the same...our impermanence is just the fact of becoming released in a voyage to next point...:bows:

PS, Some questions seem to imply that I am defending the concept of PM, I am not, I am exposing it and explaining the theory behind, I have no intention to convince anyone , only to shed light on what I can...To believe or not, in anything, from a PM to the "it will rain today" is exclusively an individual journey... so is the discovery and acceptance or not of new gates to open ...:bows:

 

[bruce_g]

Hi Laureet

Perhaps hex 26's relation to bringing what is past (or future) into the present can have a connection with your imprint, since theoretically the imprint has timeless quality.

I'm not yet seeing the usefulness of duplicity existing in difference places at different times, except as an abstract idea, or a theoretical aid to living with greater knowledge than one thinks they possess. I suppose if the latter is true, that is useful enough, though. One can enjoy, and to some degree experience theory, if indeed the theory is accurate, even if we don't yet have the means to prove it. But which theories to believe and which to dismiss?

I'm guilty of reductionism, and of living in the present. If truth isn't found beneath my feet, theories will not help me (or those I help) very much, even though they are artistically a lot of fun.

 

[laureet]

Hi Laureet

Perhaps hex 26's relation to bringing what is past (or future) into the present can have a connection with your imprint, since theoretically the imprint has timeless quality.

I'm not yet seeing the usefulness of duplicity existing in difference places at different times, except as an abstract idea, or a theoretical aid to living with greater knowledge than one thinks they possess. I suppose if the latter is true, that is useful enough, though. One can enjoy, and to some degree experience theory, if indeed the theory is accurate, even if we don't yet have the means to prove it. But which theories to believe and which to dismiss?

I'm guilty of reductionism, and of living in the present. If truth isn't found beneath my feet, theories will not help me (or those I help) very much, even though they are artistically a lot of fun.

Well, if you live in the present, you are right... important is how much our present encompass, as it is impossible to have it independent of past experiences or future expectations, ...but present is certainly is the place to be

Theories are however not smoke only, are the building blocks of reality in one way or other...each time you open the door of home, you have the theory that all you know as your home will be there...and most of the time is ...each time you have a plan or a strategy, you make a theory of how it works and then you try and test it...many times it works... Hey, now that I think, there is no present without theory ? ... Don't mind about my philosophical outbranchings ...is like my latin temperament...just always ready to spring

About smoke, did you know that there is a way to use the Yijing in which you light up three sticks of inciense, let them settle in straight lines of smoke, then you make your question and wand your hand in front of the sticks producing wind over them, then you write down the reading (straight smoke=straight line, interrupted or spiraling smoke =interrupted line) but fast because you write the combinations which go happening until the three lines of smoke are straight again. Then you will have some few trigrams which will be what is called "flowing lines" and allegedly give you insight not on the final answer to your question but on the development of that subject and/or how you should evolve your plan of action? It was used in military strategy mainly and makes an interesting (however not easy) experiment, proving that not even smoke is just smoke...

 

[Tohpol]

So,yes, I agree that challenge even if unnecessary may prove an excellent thrust producing factor :bows:

Thank you for that - You put your opinion very clearly and I largely agree. Just to be sure I'm clear as I sense some misunderstanding: We don't need to suffer, and I am not saying we should - that would be far too puritanical - only that by the mere fact of our ignorance we logically do ( as we can see from the world) But we can learn how not to suffer i.e. by applied knowledge. But in that process of learning this invites resistance or challenge as a natural process and as a product of duality. As soon as the lesson is learned then suffering stops - we know.

Rather like your initial experience here. There was a bit of mild "suffering" going on as the IC implied but after we all explored further then the experience was transformed. If discomfort was avoided and you left then the richness that we have now would never have been known. This may have been an unnecessary challenge but I believe we cannot know our lessons before we have learned them. And I think we are all learning from this exchange. I know I am.

Topal

 

[Tohpol]

How to separate true from fake is practically impossible for who has no previous deep knowledge in the subject... a Catch 22 situation...
If there is one question which could separate the true from the bogus (perhaps) is :
Can Ki give life or living energy? The answer cannot be Yes or Not or "sometimes yes and sometimes not", or it depends..., the answer is also not complex but very simple...However the true answer can be only recognized by who already knows ...catch 22

LOL. I like it. I'll have to come back on this point when I have more time, but I do think there are ways to learn to SEE truth from lies. And that is what it is all about. The answer is simple, yes, but to reach simplicity we have to navigate through complexity...

Have you observed that the crop circles most difficult to explain are those which have been created as starting simultaneously in many points and from outside in, while the most easy to find who faked them are created from inside out?

Yes indeed. I firmly believe that most crop circles are a genuine phenomena. They represent something that goes against all reductionist concepts and linear interpretations of reality. There are many within the establishment who have put into practice substantial propaganda in order to limit the value of these symbols and their effect on human consciousness. There are many faked ones, but they are relatively easy to spot (you mentioned one example of how and here are others).

Personally, I think they manifest from high plane of consciousness and the creations themselves operate at a deep level of the collective unconscious. But then, I've been called crazy before...

Topal

 

[laureet]

Thank you for that - You put your opinion very clearly and I largely agree. Just to be sure I'm clear as I sense some misunderstanding: We don't need to suffer, and I am not saying we should - that would be far too puritanical - only that by the mere fact of our ignorance we logically do ( as we can see from the world) But we can learn how not to suffer i.e. by applied knowledge. But in that process of learning this invites resistance or challenge as a natural process and as a product of duality. As soon as the lesson is learned then suffering stops - we know.
Topal

Now I can grasp exactly your meaning... I had something still tingling around about the suffering concept. Now, after further explanation, I largely agree at this point ... very interesting and worth to read :bows:

 

[laureet]

Personally, I think they manifest from high plane of consciousness and the creations themselves operate at a deep level of the collective unconscious.

Fascinating possibility isn't it?

But then, I've been called crazy before...

Topal

Join the club

 

[bruce_g]

Theories are however not smoke only, are the building blocks of reality in one way or other...each time you open the door of home, you have the theory that all you know as your home will be there...and most of the time is ...each time you have a plan or a strategy, you make a theory of how it works and then you try and test it...many times it works... Hey, now that I think, there is no present without theory ? ... Don't mind about my philosophical outbranchings ...is like my latin temperament...just always ready to spring

I don't mind at all. Your creative analogies have grounding, I think.

There is no perception of anything but present without theory. A dog knows nothing about theory, and they always live in the present.

I like and enjoy theory as, as you say, a building block to construct an idea of reality, especially a future reality. That's why I enjoy mythology so much: it is a theoretical story, or a story that teaches large ideas, even though there is no proof that the story ever actually occurred except in the imagination. And I think that's an important distinction: whatever we call reality, however we theorize it, it is still a theoretical construct. But that doesn't necessarily make the theory useless.

 

[laureet]

I like and enjoy theory as, as you say, a building block to construct an idea of reality, especially a future reality. That's why I enjoy mythology so much: it is a theoretical story, or a story that teaches large ideas, even though there is no proof that the story ever actually occurred except in the imagination. And I think that's an important distinction: whatever we call reality, however we theorize it, it is still a theoretical construct. But that doesn't necessarily make the theory useless.

Lots of essence :bows:

 

[dobro p]

Yes indeed. I firmly believe that most crop circles are a genuine phenomena. They represent something that goes against all reductionist concepts and linear interpretations of reality. There are many within the establishment who have put into practice substantial propaganda in order to limit the value of these symbols and their effect on human consciousness. There are many faked ones, but they are relatively easy to spot (you mentioned one example of how and here are others).

Personally, I think they manifest from high plane of consciousness and the creations themselves operate at a deep level of the collective unconscious.

This won't eliminate your enthusiasm for crop circles, but might temper it with some counterbalancing information:

http://www.circlemakers.org/new_documents.html

I think some of them are breathtakingly beautiful.

 

[Sparhawk]

Btw, Luis, the boots are in the mail. I've included some barbed wire and duct tape.

Color? Now I need to find the right dress... Duct-tape? Poolece..., that is so "passé"... Barbed wired on the other hand...

L

 

[Tohpol]

This won't eliminate your enthusiasm for crop circles, but might temper it with some counterbalancing information:

http://www.circlemakers.org/new_documents.html

I think some of them are breathtakingly beautiful.

No, it just pisses me off. I'm very familiar with this bunch and others like them. Like all disinformation artists conscious or just ignorant, they do a fine job of muddying the waters of a real phenomenon. And of course, for most, crop circles have been consigned to the dustbin as easily explained: "Why, it's a man-made hoax isn't?" No different to many other avenues of research that are ridiculed and swiftly dealt with by the thought police.

if you look at the designs carefully they are actually very poorly executed compared to genuine ones. And to top it all, they introduce some corporatism into the bargain with "Shredded Wheat" taking the place of ancient spiritual symbology. Yeah - beautiful.

Topal

 

[Tohpol]

Color? Now I need to find the right dress... Duct-tape? Poolece..., that is so "passé"... Barbed wired on the other hand...

L

Barbed wire??? What the hell is going on here???

Topal

 

[bruce_g]

Barbed wire??? What the hell is going on here???

Topal

Strictly ceremonial.

 

[bruce_g]

Color? Now I need to find the right dress... Duct-tape? Poolece..., that is so "passé"... Barbed wired on the other hand...

L

I'm really glad for your sense of humor, Luis. Some others would just kick my ass.

I didn't know duct tape was out. Uff, gettin' old.

 

[bruce_g]

Luis and I are working on a new book, called KinkyJing. Sorta like a Taoist Kama Sutra.

 

[Tohpol]

Luis and I are working on a new book, called KinkyJing. Sorta like a Taoist Kama Sutra.

Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase: "The Book of Changes."

I hope to god it's not illustrated...Authentic wood-cuts perhaps?

Topal

 

[bruce_g]

Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase: "The Book of Changes."

I hope to god it's not illustrated...Authentic wood-cuts perhaps?

Topal

It will be a sacred document. The carvings will resemble the copulating perverts, sculpted into Hindu temple exterior walls. Keeps the moralists and faint of heart from entering.

 

[Sparhawk]

Luis and I are working on a new book, called KinkyJing. Sorta like a Taoist Kama Sutra.

It is a serious work, of course. It will be an instant classic. Although, our chiropractor's bill seems to increase exponentially as the positions get, hmmm, er..., "more challenging"... I'm afraid that we'll have to sell it with a very prominent legal liability disclaimer...

L

 

[bruce_g]

You're the binezz guy. I'm still daydreaming on the carvings.

 

[laureet]

It is a serious work, of course. It will be an instant classic. Although, our chiropractor's bill seems to increase exponentially as the positions get, hmmm, er..., "more challenging"... I'm afraid that we'll have to sell it with a very prominent legal liability disclaimer...

L

Hey people...last two pages are purely maybe is a good oportunity for starting a new thread on that? I was really enjoying the Philos exchange :bows:

 

[bruce_g]

Hey people...last two pages are purely maybe is a good oportunity for starting a new thread on that? I was really enjoying the Philos exchange :bows:

What are illusions for if not for shattering?

 

[Sparhawk]

Hey people...last two pages are purely maybe is a good oportunity for starting a new thread on that? I was really enjoying the Philos exchange :bows:

Sorry, my attention span does not allow for serious philosophical conversations without inserting some buffoonery in between...

L