Toki-Moai is a very powerful aid

[Sparhawk]

An interest resource to see in part how the Yijing was influenced by the Rykyu traditions (even if it is not openly said but clearly shows that influence) is in the book The Tao of I Ching: Way to Divination by Jou, Tsung Hwa, look in the timing techniques which are rarely mentioned in other Yijing books, that is typical Ryukyuan influence and way of using the Yijing, as told before, Ryukyuan view of the Universe is deeply based on the primordial influence in our lives of intention and time concepts:bows:

Thanks, Laureet. I have that book and I'll read those sections again. For me this is very interesting.

Cheers,

Luis

 

[mudpie]

Laureet,
How would one find who is qualified to create a PM for someone else? It seems that this would have to be a higly skilled intuitive individual? who created your PM for you? Could you have created your own toki-moai yourself? Is it an intuitive process? or is it arbitrary...i.e. just by holding the intention , you create the PM and whatever design comes out, that is the correct design?
Thank you

 

[dobro p]

Allegedly through adaptation, its main difference with mandala is that while mandala is static and can only flow through your flow of thought, a PM is in constant flow and dynamic making events be affected by its own wave or mark and not so much affected by them.:

How can an unchanging toki-moai (it's a single symbol, right?) be in constant flow?

Back to the wave analogy, if you create a wave pattern enough strong...

That's a very big 'if'. Also (and this is a very important point), in an earlier post you said: "A PM is done by someone who knows to read those waves you produce by your very existence and movement and draw those waves for you." The only kind of person who could possibly read the waves you talk about would be a person with a very evolved being. A spiritual master, in other words. It's quite difficult to find a spiritual master. They usually don't advertise on the internet, right? (But that's a small point.)

So, plurality will submit to a main central wave as events submit to a main causing influence or we submit to our predominant personality or predominant priority in our immediate future. At least this is the theory behind...:bows:

This is, interestingly, my understanding of inner spiritual development: what is multiple submits to what is single and real when you learn to locate your attention in the part of you which is single and real, simultaneously learning to identify what is multiple and unreal and stop believing it's real. The difference between spiritual development and the toki-moai is this: spiritual development requires earnest self-enquiry and grace, the toki-moai by contrast seems entirely mechancial and external to all self-enquiry, purchasable at your local vendor of PMs. In other words, *anybody*, *any idiot*, can get one. Which brings me to a very interesting question: if the toki-moai can 'help your boat move through the water easier', is it helping you really? See, if our lives run smoothly, we have no incentive to self-enquire, we tend to fall for the illusion that we're doing things right. But when life impacts us with suffering, it prompts us to start looking into things, most importantly, into ourselves. If I understand the toki-moai correctly as you've described it, it would tend to keep us from self-enquiry, leaving us as stupid as we were before we started using it. No?

 

[dobro p]

Could you have created your own toki-moai yourself?

I know nothing about t-m, but it seems pretty obvious to me that if you could create one for yourself, you would have a knowledge and level of being that didn't need one in the first place.

 

[Tohpol]

This is, interestingly, my understanding of inner spiritual development: what is multiple submits to what is single and real when you learn to locate your attention in the part of you which is single and real, simultaneously learning to identify what is multiple and unreal and stop believing it's real. The difference between spiritual development and the toki-moai is this: spiritual development requires earnest self-enquiry and grace, the toki-moai by contrast seems entirely mechancial and external to all self-enquiry, purchasable at your local vendor of PMs. In other words, *anybody*, *any idiot*, can get one. Which brings me to a very interesting question: if the toki-moai can 'help your boat move through the water easier', is it helping you really? See, if our lives run smoothly, we have no incentive to self-enquire, we tend to fall for the illusion that we're doing things right. But when life impacts us with suffering, it prompts us to start looking into things, most importantly, into ourselves. If I understand the toki-moai correctly as you've described it, it would tend to keep us from self-enquiry, leaving us as stupid as we were before we started using it. No?

Which is where much of the New Age fits in. Well, I had the very same conclusions, but you seem to have expressed what I was going to say on the TM subject, so I won't labour the point - for a change

Topal

 

[dobro p]

Topal, new age stuff reminds me of cheap snacks and desserts - superficially interesting, but really low-grade nutrition actually, and after you've tried it a few times to see what it's like, you're sick of it.

 

[Tohpol]

Topal, new age stuff reminds me of cheap snacks and desserts - superficially interesting, but really low-grade nutrition actually, and after you've tried it a few times to see what it's like, you're sick of it.

Yeah well, it's all part of the grand scheme of things, but yes, I agree completely. It is the path of least resistance in a way that atrophies the soul. I think I've met more fruit-loops in this particular field than in any other. But that said, there are some wonderful people operating within the Human potential movement too - it's a big umbrella term and there is some fine work going in amongst the froth, especialyl in the healing arts.

Topal

 

[mudpie]

I know nothing about t-m, but it seems pretty obvious to me that if you could create one for yourself, you would have a knowledge and level of being that didn't need one in the first place.

Dobro,
I know you are leery of new age stuff, but I strongly sense some "contempt prior to investigation" here...and maybe you oughta keep an open mind

I hope Laureet answers my question because I find it intriguing. I would like to know who it was who created the T-M which brought the results she/he was so happy about. In the issue of who would create it, there COULD possibly be room for charlatans.

Two things....one, I kind of accidentally began to use mandalas with children I was working with and the results on behavior (particularly with ADHD kids) were astounding......not to mention the interest it inspired in children in general...they were drawn to the mandalas like flies to honey, literally begging me for more designs to color........and it was the mandalas in particular which inspired the intense interest, any old coloring pages DID NOT have the same startling effect.

two, I once attended a workshop with an author who wrote about finding one's purpose in life ( It was a workshop to help people change direction in life) The author had us work with mandalas and it seemed pretty innocuous at the time, it seemed like just a playful kind of exercise...I wasnt thinking of it like a "magical" tool........but what happened after the workshop in the next six months really did astound me. Things happened very rapidly in my life, things that were directly related to what I had put in the mandala, and it wasnt like I made any kind of extraordinary effort or had even thought about the mandala too much. It was only in retrospect that I had looked back and thought it rather amazing and almost coincidental the way thngs just kinda moved in my life after that workshop.

So this idea of T-M is intriguing because I suspect there is more here than meets the skeptical eye....and i would like to learn more about this. I personally feel that symbols ingeneral can be very very powerful.

 

[bruce_g]

It doesn't seem so outlandish to me that a certain symbol may open a door to a previously un-introduced ancestor, energy form or collective energy/knowledge, designated for a particular individual. LiSe's 57: Seal Assignment, seems to be based on this idea of individual imprinting. Today we see a more scientific from of toki-moai, known as DNA.

Can an object, image or symbol contain and transmit, for lack of a better word, magical powers? Just about every civilization in human history seems to have believed so. The idea of toki-moai doesn't sound outlandish to me.

Once when I was swimming in a mountain river, diving for interesting looking rocks (I had a major thing for rocks at that time, believing that certain shapes contained special knowledge), I came up with a flat black stone with near perfect symmetry. It was about 3.5 inches high, shaped in a triangle but with the top point cut flat across. There was a 1/4 inch hole at the center/top, as though it had been made for the specific purpose of tying it to someone or something. I was ecstatic at finding this stone, and whether it had special history and knowledge, or if I only projected my energy into it, the result was that I felt I had come across something, which for me personally was a source of deep mystery and insight.

I wore this stone around my neck for years. Treasured it. Then like an idiot, in a moment ecstatic love, I gave it to someone. They liked it because it was mine, but had no idea or appreciation what I had just given them. A week later it was broken, and so was part of my heart.

I did find out the stone's origin and purpose from an artist who specialized in indigenousness tribal history of the northeastern US. It was a fishing net weight, crafted and shaped to quickly fall through water and hold to the stony river bottom. It was estimated to be around 300 years old.

Is it crazy to believe the stone was meant specifically for me to find, or that it opened a door to hidden insight? No crazier than believing random tosses of coins could connect me to hidden insight.

 

[dobro p]

Dobro, I know you are leery of new age stuff, but I strongly sense some "contempt prior to investigation" here...and maybe you oughta keep an open mind .

What I'm aware of is not contempt prior to investigation but a heavy-duty scepticism prior to investigation. The reason I continue to ask Laureet questions about it is cuz I'm interested too. I'm keeping an open mind, but I'm slightly allergic to Laureet.

I hope Laureet answers my question because I find it intriguing. I would like to know who it was who created the T-M which brought the results she/he was so happy about. In the issue of who would create it, there COULD possibly be room for charlatans..

'Possibly'? Only 'possibly'? lol I would assume that in any area where some money can be made, that you will have charlatans.

Two things....one, I kind of accidentally began to use mandalas with children I was working with and the results on behavior (particularly with ADHD kids) were astounding......not to mention the interest it inspired in children in general...they were drawn to the mandalas like flies to honey, literally begging me for more designs to color........and it was the mandalas in particular which inspired the intense interest, any old coloring pages DID NOT have the same startling effect..

Yes, and have you ever read Carl Jung on mandalas? He talks about how they start to spontaneously emerge in the psyches of people who are working with inner tensions and trying to illuminate and integrate unconscious material. He sees them as a natural expression of the learning and healing process, I think. Lots of cultures use them - have you ever seen the sand mandalas that the Tibetans do for important ceremonies and teachings? And then they just sweep up the sand afterward, destroying the object of incredible beauty. Such a lesson in transience.

two, I once attended a workshop with an author who wrote about finding one's purpose in life ( It was a workshop to help people change direction in life) The author had us work with mandalas and it seemed pretty innocuous at the time, it seemed like just a playful kind of exercise...I wasnt thinking of it like a "magical" tool........but what happened after the workshop in the next six months really did astound me. Things happened very rapidly in my life, things that were directly related to what I had put in the mandala, and it wasnt like I made any kind of extraordinary effort or had even thought about the mandala too much. It was only in retrospect that I had looked back and thought it rather amazing and almost coincidental the way thngs just kinda moved in my life after that workshop..

I've had a parallel experience to that, but not with mandalas. On three occasions I've engaged in something called the Transformation Game. It's a self-enquiry board 'game' that you play with two or three other people. It came out of Findhorn. (See - I'm not averse to *everything* new age.) It's been my experience with the Transformation Game that it actually catalyzes or crystallizes or triggers relatively smooth and quick transformations in your life to the extent to which you approach the game with sincerity and openness. It takes about 4-8 hours to play the game, depending on how much time you put into it. My understanding of how it works is that the sincerity plus the self-enquiry creates a resonance with deep parts of yourself (like in Hex 61) which acts as a seed that germinates, develops and finally blossoms in an evident way in your life. (I think it's like the story of the Prodigal Son in the Jesus teachings - to the extent that you consciously and modestly approach the Source with a receptive, inquisitive nature and a sincere request for help, the Source approaches you with help. Every time. Without fail.) I would be perfectly happy to engage in Transformation Game work with people I trust on a more frequent basis. My scepticism about the T-M is that the work is done, not by you or me, but by somebody else (the person who provides you with the mandala); that the provider doesn't even need to know you apparently, but just needs the money price for the service; and that the provision of the mandala is *so* open to abuse by people who either don't really know what they're doing or who are just in it for the buck. I don't believe in 'magic feathers'. I don't believe (because I don't see how it is possible) that the application of something external can bring about lasting, important internal transformation.

So this idea of T-M is intriguing because I suspect there is more here than meets the skeptical eye....and i would like to learn more about this. I personally feel that symbols ingeneral can be very very powerful.

I would also like to learn more about this, and yes, symbols can be very powerful. But there's no substitute for inner work. From what Laureet has described so far, the T-M sounds like a 'shortcut'. There are no shortcuts. There are intelligent approaches to spiritual development, but there are no 'sly' approaches. 'You can't trick God.'

 

[dobro p]

It doesn't seem so outlandish to me that a certain symbol may open a door to a previously un-introduced ancestor, energy form or collective energy/knowledge, designated for a particular individual.

Not outlandish, especially if you believe in its efficacy, as you seem to have done with your river rock. But here's what Laureet kicked off with at the beginning of this thread:

"I just want to let all know that I am in my third month after getting my toki-moai done and I have never been happier, all sorts of changes and even the strange ones or seemingly bad ones ended up showing great improvement in my life."

Laureet is acribing major positive changes in his/her life to the use of the t-m - 'great improvement'. I'm not questioning Laureet's report of positive change, but I've got tons of doubts about whether a rock or a symbol can change you really. Temporary change, sure. Small tastes of something better, sure. (And especially if you believe that something good is going to happen, sure.) But something lasting and important? No, I don't believe it. You ever hear a Randy Newman song called 'Rednecks'? He talks about less than intelligent people who never get it, and he sings about how they go to college but they 'went in dumb, came out dumb too'. And there are people who aren't dumb particularly, but using an approach that doesn't work: it's easy to find people who have meditated for twenty or thirty years and they're the same bozo they were when they started. (I know what I'm talking about with this one lol.) Like I said to Listener, I don't believe in magic feathers that'll do the work for you. You gotta do the work yourself. Which means finding out how to do it and finding people to help you.

I'm getting boring with repetition now. Over and out, I think.

 

[Sparhawk]

It doesn't seem so outlandish to me that a certain symbol may open a door to a previously un-introduced ancestor, energy form or collective energy/knowledge, designated for a particular individual. LiSe's 57: Seal Assignment, seems to be based on this idea of individual imprinting. Today we see a more scientific from of toki-moai, known as DNA.

Can an object, image or symbol contain and transmit, for lack of a better word, magical powers? Just about every civilization in human history seems to have believed so. The idea of toki-moai doesn't sound outlandish to me.

Yes, exactly my feeling. Not that I'm ready to shell out that kind of money any time soon but, like I said before, I believe in talismans.

L

 

[bruce_g]

Dobro,

Ever been around a newly born again Pentecostal Christian? They have not yet had the time to digest their overwhelming personal experience, nor to test it out in the long run, but they have lots of big 16. And they can be a real pain in the ass because they are relentless in their witnessing: fulfilling the great commission to spread the good news. I knew one, and his name was Bruce.

But in fairness, the thread is titled " Toki-Moai is a very powerful aid". I think the active word there is "aid". I obviously have no idea of the legitimacy of this evangelical effort. Paying for enlightenment can be a huge rip off, of course, but not necessarily. It has been common practice for thousands of years to bring gifts to elders, teachers or gurus, who dispense wisdom and insight. The tribe of Levite from ancient Judaism was not allowed an inheritance or salary, living exclusively from such gifts.That eventually led to all sort of abuses, but the original idea wasn't held in contempt, as it was the common practice of that time.

With so many stones at the bottom of a river, it's hard to tell which are authentic human relics, and which are just stones. Remember the pet rock craze?

Randy Newman, what an amazing satirical song writer he was.

 

[bruce_g]

Not that I'm ready to shell out that kind of money any time soon but, like I said before, I believe in talismans.

L

I have a magical shovel I'd like to sell you; even comes with hip boots.

 

[dobro p]

I have a magical shovel I'd like to sell you; even comes with hip boots.

Hey, Luis - I've got some gear I'd be willing to part with (if I was offered an appropriate monetary inducement, of course). I call it the 'Mercury Rig'. It's a tin hat with two faux crystal wings (high impact plastic, actually), one left, one right. There's a battery up inside the hat, and a timer, and tiny light bulbs embedded in the plastic wings, and you can set it so that the longer you wear it, the brighter the wings become. It's *very* tasteful. And if that's not enough, the Mercury Rig also comes with a longish feather. I have a variety of feathers you can choose from: peacock, eagle, ostrich, and puffin. The feather is to be inserted gently between the cheeks of your situpon, and I assure you that if you only find the courage to remove every article of clothing other than the Mercury Rig, the effect is truly magical. Transcendental, in fact.

The gold lame jockstrap is optional, depending on the esthetic and moral sensibilities of the user. I prefer the naked truth, although I realize that culturally-induced shyness sometimes prompts users to embody a less genitally conspicuous path.

A 15% rebate is available to patrons who, subsequent to sale, provide me with a jpeg photo image of themselves in full Mercury Rig mode.

 

[bruce_g]

Do you accept Pay Pal?

 

[dobro p]

Pay pal? Of course! I am computerate to the nth. And all major credit cards. And all major currencies. (As long as Nigerian banks aren't involved.)

Hey...wanna know how cool I am? I even barter. Got any .011 electric guitar strings? Or single malt whiskey? Or organic apples? (Disclaimer: certain goods, services and relationships will not be considered environmentally sound mediums of exchange: used girlfriends, palm readings, and personal grooming products are examples of what you might find on the list of proscribed items.)

 

[laureet]

Laureet,
How would one find who is qualified to create a PM for someone else? It seems that this would have to be a higly skilled intuitive individual? who created your PM for you? Could you have created your own toki-moai yourself? Is it an intuitive process? or is it arbitrary...i.e. just by holding the intention , you create the PM and whatever design comes out, that is the correct design?
Thank you

Not easy, too many charlatans out there. To find someone will depend first on the tradition in which you want your PM to be based, if in the buddhist tradition I would say the Tibetan line or the Thai line would be the areas where to find more true (or possible true) work, may be contacting some Tibetan order as the ones in France or Belgium or Portugal where they have many monasteries open to the public for courses and more, unless you travel Buthan.

In the Tao tradition I would say Taiwan and the Clouds Temple in the Hsiao Liuqiu Island or some good and traditional Chan (Zen) school abroad which keeps the practice of Forms Meditation. This talking on Asian traditions, but there are also other traditions with PM arts as for example some Celtic traditions in Europe, however it is almost impossible to find true knowledge from that tradition. In Africa I would resource to Nigeria. The most important and best in the Pacific would be some maori tradition specialized in Koru in New Zealand but also difficult to find pure and some Huna tradition with about hundreds of charlatans today but a few true masters.
I personally believe, not as scholar because I lack proof, but as a researcher in ancient mind-body traditions , that the most near to the true knowledge could be found either in Huna or in TinKha, Huna is most known as the ancient Hawaiian philosophy and ritual and TinKha much less known as the ancient South Ryukyu philosophy and tradition almost identical to the original Daoism (not the Daoism after creation of priesthood and dogmatization but the original one). Ryukyuan PM finders, could not be found, at least by me in many years search, more than in some little known temples where it was totally out of character to request to have a PM developed for me. I found , or better it was indicated to me, that most recently appeared someone offering PMs under the Ryukyuan name, in the Net, difficult to believe though but I asked for TWO to be done for me and a ficticious friend, I was asked some details of each person's birth, profession, hemisphere, moon, kind of activity and so and about 20 days later I got a package originally stamped in Macao but delivered from Portugal. The PMs it contained were rather unusual design with some character of mandala but with many koru as well but a feeling of flow because its many circular lines, with differences between them quite remarkable. Now, the reason why I ordered two was that the theory behind says that you are not supposed to show your PM around given that when more persons identify it with you and as a kind of talisman, more it gets diluted its power just because it gets not only in your thoughts but in the thoughs of others and that is called dispersion, you are supposed to keep it for yourself and when imprinting it somewhere to make it discretely and mainly without letting anyone know what it is or to whom it relates if possible.

First I checked with some contacts in the University of Algarve in Portugal who contacted the Tibetan Monasteries there and a visiting Lama identified the PM I sent (the one for a ficticious person) as seemingly true or at least fitting with mandala development and partially understandable but not pertaining to a buddhist tradition. Then I contacted an scholar I trust specialized in Daoist talismans who also recognized a couple of the lines but said cannot say if it was the real thing or not, however it seems that the PM showed knowledge of ancient ways to use symbols and forms. Last I contacted a friend working at Yonaguni submersed arqueological site who is also a teacher in old RyuKyuan cosmology and traditions and he recognized its principles and intention behind, however he could not attribute its origin to any period in particular.

I exhausted my contacts for verification and the end line was that seeems to be authentic in how it is designed and what includes, it is recognizable by who practice similar traditions, however couldn't find anyone who could say YES it is and probably was done by a Master with such and such lineage. One thing everyone agreed though, that is that who designed it has profound knowledge in the technique and no hurry at all while doing it (this said by a friend whose hobby is studying and unmasking art fraud). Nevertheless, art falsification also needs profound knowledge and are not originals... So what to think?

Well, the end test was to try mine, the real one..it seems to works ... or is it what was normally to happen anyway ? I think is the PM, but hey, that is me.

I will not say where I got it (bad experience about pointing or quoting other people's links) I certainly will not recommend or not recommend that source or any other. It most certainly a PM can be done by anyone knowing how, how to test if it is not a charlatan ? My personal idea should be to look for what they are asking, any of the questions may relate with flow and change or are all about birth and static things? True PM is based on change and flow, it is dynamic. Other thing to look after is how much they explain ? When more they try to justify the sale and their "true" knowledge or lineage, less chances are they are true. In my modest opinion, if they sell you a PM as "buy if you want and if not that's fine" will be more sincere people than "You need it! Change your life! Don't loose the chance" etc " but all depends who made the site as well, I have seen true minorities art sold in the internet and whomever made the site thought it needed to be aggressive selling so the result is that it looks bogus even if the artifacts are original and unique.

To learn yourself to do a PM I think is the best way, I tried myself, it is not easy though to sail through so much garbage about that as there is published today, I wish I could help you in that but the true is I cannot. Mandala creation is a good start though, Koru also, Celtic knotting maybe and Dao talismans as well, Stupas (the original not the temples or the chorten) are also starting points.

It is not arbitraty or intuitive, or at least is not in most authentic traditions, in the RyuKyuan and Huna tradition it is learning to read the signals and symbols created in Nature, clouds, waves, forms of whole forests, etc under some situations and apply this to the creation of the PM based on the relation of the person with Nature at different points of his/her life. An analogy: Full moon in middle Autumm produces a pattern in the clouds and in the waves in the Year of the Dragon which is unique, you borned under those conditions, so your body and mind must have been influenced by that pattern (as you are a creation of Nature as well) and that design will connect you with those conditions. But also, your work is as teacher, that means you transmitt your knowledge or knowledge of others and you form and shape the minds and knowledge of others, so your flow must have similar characteristics to the South wind and South sun , the first shaping the forms of anything growing and the last transmitting its essence, so their influence in the clouds and waves characteristic of a day in Full Moon of middle autumm in the Year of the Dragon, will be very similar and have affinity with your flow in life, and so on. Of course this a crude intent of explanation and not profound knowledge at all in the way to do it, however may superficially explain a few of the principles of the theory behind.

The technique you mention of intuitive creation, is another different tradition called "waving" by RyuKyuans and Polynesians, it allegedly makes you create a diagram which if you study it through logic and through meditation, will tell you your past (good deeds and errors), your present (good pints and dangers) and your future (ways available and the possible end consequences). This is what the Yijing does as well in a very accurate way. An interest experiment should be to intutively create (draw) trigrams and hexagrams while thinking about your own life and then read them in the Book. Or to empty the mind completely and do the same. Maybe in the first case you get what you think your life is and in the second case you get what really is ? ...

Sorry...I know...my post is always loooong, professionally acquired problem I guess

 

[laureet]

How can an unchanging toki-moai (it's a single symbol, right?) be in constant flow?

It is YOU who sets the lines in flow as much as it is you who sets time speed in flow . What you observe, is given life in your mind...or so is the theory behind.
Have you seen Mona Lisa similing? The paint cannot smile can it? as a matter of act if you isolate the mouth, it is not smiling at all...

That's a very big 'if'. Also (and this is a very important point), in an earlier post you said: "A PM is done by someone who knows to read those waves you produce by your very existence and movement and draw those waves for you." The only kind of person who could possibly read the waves you talk about would be a person with a very evolved being. A spiritual master, in other words. It's quite difficult to find a spiritual master. They usually don't advertise on the internet, right? (But that's a small point.)

Absolutely true and I agree. However there are many minorities, monasteries and remote societies who have been approached by organizations or individuals (some in good will and purpose and some crap of mankind) for helping them to make their arts or traditions more known and for getting a way of self financial support, they make sites for them and act as middle man, this is not uncommon today.
Sites saying "I am a master" of course is the absurd however "you can get this and that from acultural group or a monastery" deserves some "may be"s and "what if"s

This is, interestingly, my understanding of inner spiritual development: what is multiple submits to what is single and real when you learn to locate your attention in the part of you which is single and real, simultaneously learning to identify what is multiple and unreal and stop believing it's real. The difference between spiritual development and the toki-moai is this: spiritual development requires earnest self-enquiry and grace, the toki-moai by contrast seems entirely mechancial and external to all self-enquiry, purchasable at your local vendor of PMs. In other words, *anybody*, *any idiot*, can get one.

I see the PM as an aid, a tool. You cannot use something you cannot imagine can you? Can you be spiritual about your own development if never ever someone have shown you what spiritual is in mechanic written words or in mechanic sounds as words are? Aren't you in this very moment transmitting your ideas in a mechanical way through your writting?

Which brings me to a very interesting question: if the toki-moai can 'help your boat move through the water easier', is it helping you really? See, if our lives run smoothly, we have no incentive to self-enquire, we tend to fall for the illusion that we're doing things right. But when life impacts us with suffering, it prompts us to start looking into things, most importantly, into ourselves. If I understand the toki-moai correctly as you've described it, it would tend to keep us from self-enquiry, leaving us as stupid as we were before we started using it. No?

I am afraid I must disagree. The way of less resistance is neither the easy lazy way nor the indulgence way, it is simply the way which allows you to make more way, travel longer distances and arrive more places without the loss of time, resources and effort of needing to fight with obstacles unnecessarily.
Character (in my opinion) is created by study, understanding and the challenge to discover how to improve your life or the life of others, which is what is behind 99% of your acts since birth. Confrontation, suffering and battle are not, in my opinion, a necessary ingredient for self definition, other situations as the need to help others, the need to discover yourself and the need to discover what life is about and how Universe works can also provide you self definition, thrust and a never resting- always flowing spirit. A life in full connection and in best of lucks is still unpredictable and needing own effort, what is best about it is that all the resources and effort and time you will save from dealing with confrontations, you will be able to use in helping others and yourself and in discovering more about all. Do you believe wise ancient master retired to become better because they needed confrontation? Have you seen or heard about many true masters born out from confrontation and challenge ?

However, this difference of opinion, doesn't make you and me different or in opposition just because we differ, all by the contrary, ultimately we are thinking the same, flow is necessary, change is necessary, influence of other's waves in ours is necessary, unpredictabilitty is necessary and to have intention self define us.:bows:.

 

[laureet]

So this idea of T-M is intriguing because I suspect there is more here than meets the skeptical eye....and i would like to learn more about this. I personally feel that symbols ingeneral can be very very powerful.

In fact we are in this very moment seeing them (the symbols) and their influence... Have you seen how a Smiley can change or express your mood? How can a little drawing widely sold by the Smiley bank influence so many lives? ...Ok..don't get angry people...it was a joke (mostly)

On more serious grounds, the power of symbols cannot be dennied but the most important is that symbols are inert without the human factor, withhout the fact that the person who sees it gives flow to it and the fact that every symbol may touch the most intimate strings in our spirits.

Listener, Your work with mandalas and children is very interesting and I sincerely hope you go on with it :bows:

 

[laureet]

It doesn't seem so outlandish to me that a certain symbol may open a door to a previously un-introduced ancestor, energy form or collective energy/knowledge, designated for a particular individual. LiSe's 57: Seal Assignment, seems to be based on this idea of individual imprinting. Today we see a more scientific from of toki-moai, known as DNA.

Can an object, image or symbol contain and transmit, for lack of a better word, magical powers? Just about every civilization in human history seems to have believed so. The idea of toki-moai doesn't sound outlandish to me.

Once when I was swimming in a mountain river, diving for interesting looking rocks (I had a major thing for rocks at that time, believing that certain shapes contained special knowledge), I came up with a flat black stone with near perfect symmetry. It was about 3.5 inches high, shaped in a triangle but with the top point cut flat across. There was a 1/4 inch hole at the center/top, as though it had been made for the specific purpose of tying it to someone or something. I was ecstatic at finding this stone, and whether it had special history and knowledge, or if I only projected my energy into it, the result was that I felt I had come across something, which for me personally was a source of deep mystery and insight.

I wore this stone around my neck for years. Treasured it. Then like an idiot, in a moment ecstatic love, I gave it to someone. They liked it because it was mine, but had no idea or appreciation what I had just given them. A week later it was broken, and so was part of my heart.

I did find out the stone's origin and purpose from an artist who specialized in indigenousness tribal history of the northeastern US. It was a fishing net weight, crafted and shaped to quickly fall through water and hold to the stony river bottom. It was estimated to be around 300 years old.

Is it crazy to believe the stone was meant specifically for me to find, or that it opened a door to hidden insight? No crazier than believing random tosses of coins could connect me to hidden insight.

Your story is full of insight. Not only that, but you are also decribing how many traditions got distorted and lost,: a discovery with significance to the discoverer, shared with others for pure love, unrecognized by the receiver by its original meaning, transformed in a superficially worn symbol, the final realization that the magic was within you and the artifact or discovery was only the triggering key, only an inert thing when out of context but a powerful thing at one moment for one person in a particular place.
But principally and beyond what I have further seen on it, the story itself, as you described it, is full of insight, my full respect to you :bows:

 

[laureet]

What I'm aware of is not contempt prior to investigation but a heavy-duty scepticism prior to investigation. The reason I continue to ask Laureet questions about it is cuz I'm interested too. I'm keeping an open mind, but I'm slightly allergic to Laureet.'

Not a nice thing to say... You are mistaking allergy for my opinions with allergy for someone you don't know at all. Please remember that MOST of times allergy is not induced by a virus or any foreign destructive substance but is a SELF exagerate reaction of your immune system to a harmless subject wrongly identified as dangerous to your system

'Possibly'? Only 'possibly'? lol I would assume that in any area where some money can be made, that you will have charlatans.'

Is there anything or any field where money cannot be made Is there any field where charlatand are not? That is like to point out that in food can be bacterias... is there any place where they are not?

have you ever seen the sand mandalas that the Tibetans do for important ceremonies and teachings? And then they just sweep up the sand afterward, destroying the object of incredible beauty. Such a lesson in transience.'

Did you know that those mandalas are offerings not objects of ritual and a few times points of anchoring but never guiding mandalas or so? Did you know that the reason to delete them is because the offering must disappear from the physical world for can be set free in the non physical world otherwise stays anchored very much as living things do until freed from the physical body? They are not destroyed, they are set free...

I don't believe in 'magic feathers'. I don't believe (because I don't see how it is possible) that the application of something external can bring about lasting, important internal transformation.'

What is not external to you? All is and all transforms you. Don't a warning sign in a road change your attitude and perhaps your next action? Don't your Yijing readings provide you new insights or options? How can a few falling objects make you believe while objects that don't fall don't ? Is this selective belief? My intention is not to antagonize you and most certainly not to accentuate your "allergy" to me, but I believe you are been selective without realizing it.

You can't trick God.'

Unless that was HIS final purpose with you

 

[laureet]

Which means finding out how to do it and finding people to help you.

That can only work if you are able to recognize help and accept help even when dressed in unknown clothes...:bows:

 

[laureet]

Dobro...please...

Toki-Moai is a very powerful aid to getting yourself known as notorious (New Thread) Or something like that.

Dobro, that is a really primitive thing to do...to create a thread for own satisfaction and content devoid antagonizing purpose as well as for cheap discredit of other's belief?

Isn't to antagonize and to criticise whatever is on the public eye at a given moment, with no more than assertions, with no content, the way that unknown people feeling obscure and little, use for becoming known or trying to? Isn't it the oldest trick in the politicians book and the tabloids? Why to do this ? what is the need ? It doesn't seem that this thread has any other purpose than self enhancement of image ..sad to say.

I respected and responded each of your messages with content, with messages with content as well, what is the purpose of a totally devoid of content, back sting assertion as that? why also to create a thread specially for that'? You could obtain respect from all with intelligent debate as you well have been doing since long before I came around, why then this now?

 

[Sparhawk]

even comes with hip boots.

Hmmm, not sure about the shovel but I'll take the boots...

 

[Sparhawk]

The gold lame jockstrap is optional, depending on the esthetic and moral sensibilities of the user. I prefer the naked truth, although I realize that culturally-induced shyness sometimes prompts users to embody a less genitally conspicuous path.

I'll take that one too, thanks. You keep the Mercury thingy...

BTW, that "Mercury" stuff reminded me of some very old threads in old, pre-Internet, BBS's where a bunch of shady Europeans and a few Americans, where trying to get their hands on that mythical substance called "Red Mercury" and were willing to pay huge amounts of money for it... Of course, nobody knew exactly what "Red Mercury" was or what it could be used for, but boy, they were really willing to pay a small country's GDP for it...

L

PS: I know, I've been on this online world for longer than I care to admit...

 

[Sparhawk]

Laureet,

Your previous message (the one where you tell about the PM you ordered) was very interesting. Would you care to stamp and scan/photograph the one you obtained for a fictitious friend?

L

 

[bruce_g]

Hmmm, not sure about the shovel but I'll take the boots...

Patent leather or rubber, and with 3 inch heels or 5?

I was just thinking about a vision of a not-quite-human face, more like an Aztec design which resembled a face, once, under a mescaline trance. It's impossible to describe how intensely it bore into my brain, and I've never succeeded in replicating the image, though I've tried. About a year after the experience, my band was playing a coffee house. A friend of my ex's, an artist in her own right, created a poster, promoting the event. At the top center was the face; which wasn't intended by her to be a face, just a design. The image is too far gone for me to get close to reproducing it, and I think the poster wound up with my son. Not that it matters now anyway. That was then, this is now. But I do find such things interesting. The big question always being: where do these things come from? Easy to say, from the Collective Unconscious or some such name for it, but it doesn't explain it, really.

It seems on topic.

 

[laureet]

Laureet,

Your previous message (the one where you tell about the PM you ordered) was very interesting. Would you care to stamp and scan/photograph the one you obtained for a fictitious friend?

L

I would not make that, I have some reservations about the intention of true interest in knowledge by some members of this forum in spite of having received proof of true seekers intention from others.
To do what you are asking will most certainly provide stones which many will use for casting instead of using them to build, that will make me again irreverent towards the narrow minded and the whole cycle we seem to be overcoming will start again.
I cannot either send it only to you and deny it to others.
If I post that, I would also be exposing the PM and its authors to some people unprepared to respect others belief, something that was sent to me in good faith, I will not do that.
So I will instead scan it and isolate some bits and pieces and post them as such, as I assume that this can help to satisfy your interest. Fair for you?:bows:

 

[Sparhawk]

I would not make that, I have some reservations about the intention of true interest in knowledge by some members of this forum in spite of having received proof of true seekers intention from others.
To do what you are asking will most certainly provide stones which many will use for casting instead of using them to build, that will make me again irreverent towards the narrow minded and the whole cycle we seem to be overcoming will start again.
I cannot either send it only to you and deny it to others.
If I post that, I would also be exposing the PM and its authors to some people unprepared to respect others belief, something that was sent to me in good faith, I will not do that.
So I will instead scan it and isolate some bits and pieces and post them as such, as I assume that this can help to satisfy your interest. Fair for you?:bows:

I accept your concerns and explanation. No need to worry about isolating or scanning anything. I find that knowledge is akin to love: if you have a choice, you've rather expect to have it all or walk away...

Thanks anyway,

L