Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
- Joined
- Sep 17, 1971
- Messages
- 5,120
- Reaction score
- 109
Toki-Moai is a very powerful aid
- Thread starter laureet
- Start date
For disaster response and management. But what's that to do with cultural artefacts? And why so little about UNWDP, anywhere on the net - nothing about its aims, its mission, its work. What does it do? Why the big secret?
- Joined
- Sep 17, 1971
- Messages
- 5,120
- Reaction score
- 109
Ah, that is the mystery... If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would venture to say this is part of the NWO vision... I wouldn't be surprised to see Dick Cheney in the BOD...
They do appear to do some good in disaster relief.
L
- Joined
- May 29, 2006
- Messages
- 27,002
- Reaction score
- 4,505
When you ridicule the Toki-moai, in your ignorance you seem to forget that are symbols of ritual in traditional Taoism, Huna, Shinto, many aboriginal systems, Bon and Tibetan Buddhism under other names or as mandala or tao talismans, and by its own name of toki-moai in RyuKyuan traditional religious belief. To ridicule these symbols AFTER been directed to sources of information about the true historical existence of toki-moai artifacts, discards ignorance and shows total disrespect for the belief and ritual of others.
If I was to go to a forum of Christians or pseudo-Taoists who adopt bits and pieces of an ancient system as the I Ching as a toy while discarding its more basic philosophy and I was to ridicule in that forum Christian crosses or their belief, I am sure there will be a roar of reactions and condemnation of such an act of petty ignorance and disrespect.
Ignorance is not to blame, however persisting resistance to abandon ignorance is, and justification of ignorance through persecuting or ridiculing other's belief is indeed one of shames we most often see in history books and, why not to say, in present times as well:bows:.
getojack
visitor
- Joined
- Jun 13, 1971
- Messages
- 589
- Reaction score
- 10
So this toki-moai thing is, what, a religion? From the links you've provided, it seems more like a modern mind-virus cloaking itself in the dress of ancient Eastern beliefs in order to give it more credibility. ANY symbol has power, in and of itself. That includes Taoist, Buddhist, Christian... symbols. Furthermore, language itself is symbolic of the material things and abstract concepts it refers to. If you can truly grok this, then you will see that the people writing on this forum are simply playing with symbols, very much like stamping people's bums with toki-moai symbols. The difficulty comes in when one person's symbol is taken to be above and beyond another's. And this looks to be how you first presented yourself in this forum.
lienshan
visitor
- Joined
- May 22, 1970
- Messages
- 431
- Reaction score
- 4
What it is, depends of the forum, where it is spammed
http://www.gnosticteachings.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=3769&pid=23931&st=0&#entry23931
B
bruce_g
Guest
What it is, depends of the forum, where it is spammed
Good point.
Amway leaders teach their recruits the following mantra: Some will. Some won't. So what?
Saving people is a numbers game, apparently.
dobro p
visitor
- Joined
- May 19, 1972
- Messages
- 3,223
- Reaction score
- 208
Laureet, I thought you said you were leaving?
Well, since you've changed your mind, I have a suggestion. Instead of telling people how ignorant and disrespectful they are, why don't you explain the basis of your faith in toki-moai. I don't see how a mere symbol can bring about significant change in my life. I *can* see how self-knowledge and the long, hard work of self-discipline and inner transformation can bring about significant change in my life, but I do not see how replicating a mere symbol can accomplish that. Can you explain how the toki-moai can do that, simply and clearly?
Or are you merely a superstitious believer in a magic feather?
Well, since you've changed your mind, I have a suggestion. Instead of telling people how ignorant and disrespectful they are, why don't you explain the basis of your faith in toki-moai. I don't see how a mere symbol can bring about significant change in my life. I *can* see how self-knowledge and the long, hard work of self-discipline and inner transformation can bring about significant change in my life, but I do not see how replicating a mere symbol can accomplish that. Can you explain how the toki-moai can do that, simply and clearly?
Or are you merely a superstitious believer in a magic feather?
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2007
- Messages
- 3,566
- Reaction score
- 135
Well said.
This guy is a spammer/scammer and pretty tasteless with it. As LiSe said, using terminal illness was particularly repellent use of hot button selling. Everything he said was geared towards entrainment for buying his pseudo-spiritual product. They are all over the place in so many forums.
I feel like I've been slimed.
That UNnet thing is so easy to use as cover for all kinds of folks and that is exactly what's happening.
Topal
dobro p
visitor
- Joined
- May 19, 1972
- Messages
- 3,223
- Reaction score
- 208
This guy is a spammer/scammer and pretty tasteless with it... Everything he said was geared towards entrainment for buying his pseudo-spiritual product. I feel like I've been slimed.
"He"? You mean, this person is a guy?!?! I thought this person was a woman...
Oh...
Okay, Laureet, ignore my previous questions. I'm not interested in you anymore. I mean, if I can't fantasize about silkscreening my toki-moai on your peachpink personal bits, then what's the point? Cuz if this is just about money or egos, that's pathetic. I was talking *love*, sweetheart. I am an Ichinguero. Don't waste my time with mere decals claiming potency beyond the realm of the rational. I don't want decals. I want love.
rosada
visitor
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2006
- Messages
- 9,905
- Reaction score
- 3,209
Question: Of what benefit would a toki-moai be to me?
Answer: 48.5 > 46
Question: How does the toki-moai do whatever it is it does?
Answer: 24.2.5 > 60.
--
I was surprised (and frankly annoyed!) to receive what appears to be an endorsement of this of object, but then it occured to me that my annoyance was not that a physical object could be of some spiritual benefit, but that there was a monetary price involved. So it now occurs to me that I ought to ask, "Would I feel I got my $ worth?" and "How can I manefest the $ for this purchase?"
As to the responce to my second question, I get IC is saying something to the effect that having a physical symbol can keep one grounded, keep one with the core group, 60. Limitation also sounded like a tracking device that helped the angels find you.
I wonder if Pluto, the power transformer, going into Capricorn in the near future, the sign of statis symbols, will be ushering in an era where power symbols take off as never before.
Answer: 48.5 > 46
Question: How does the toki-moai do whatever it is it does?
Answer: 24.2.5 > 60.
--
I was surprised (and frankly annoyed!) to receive what appears to be an endorsement of this of object, but then it occured to me that my annoyance was not that a physical object could be of some spiritual benefit, but that there was a monetary price involved. So it now occurs to me that I ought to ask, "Would I feel I got my $ worth?" and "How can I manefest the $ for this purchase?"
As to the responce to my second question, I get IC is saying something to the effect that having a physical symbol can keep one grounded, keep one with the core group, 60. Limitation also sounded like a tracking device that helped the angels find you.
I wonder if Pluto, the power transformer, going into Capricorn in the near future, the sign of statis symbols, will be ushering in an era where power symbols take off as never before.
Dont knock it till you try it!!!
Gee I used 'Toki Moai' and my penis grew 3 inches, that was just in girth, wow, Ive thrown the viagra away, and young girls have taken a new interest in me, but dont believe me, try it yourself, if your not happy with the results your just not trying hard enough (or may need an alternate symbol... in fact I recommend you buy them by the dozen, then your really covered), once youve finished using them and they have fulfilled all your desires, dont give them to other people, it just wont work, send them to the source and recieve a free symbol for every 10 references that purchase, wow, if it sounds too good to be true your just being an idiot,so get over it.. (oh my god, my penis just grew another 3 inches , gotta go now...)
Gee I used 'Toki Moai' and my penis grew 3 inches, that was just in girth, wow, Ive thrown the viagra away, and young girls have taken a new interest in me, but dont believe me, try it yourself, if your not happy with the results your just not trying hard enough (or may need an alternate symbol... in fact I recommend you buy them by the dozen, then your really covered), once youve finished using them and they have fulfilled all your desires, dont give them to other people, it just wont work, send them to the source and recieve a free symbol for every 10 references that purchase, wow, if it sounds too good to be true your just being an idiot,so get over it.. (oh my god, my penis just grew another 3 inches , gotta go now...)
Things as they are ... even if you don't like it
Well, lets see if I can make myself crystal clear:
1.- I don't mind a bit if you believe in the properties of an artifact or a symbol, be it called Toki-Moai in Ryukyuan (or Loochooan) be called stupa in Tibet, mandala in a more modern way extracted from sanskrit, manè in Caraja dialect or any other name in another language or tradition. Much less I care if you use your money to get one or not, I never asked you to believe or to obtain one in any way.
2.- I DO mind about ignorance, as the scholar I am and even if ignorance in the non educated doesn't bother me more far than to try to help in programmmes to literate the illiterate, ignorance portrayed as knowledge, which is the case of most who have sent many postings in this thread, is only the proof of extreme egocentrism and incapacity to learn and DOES bother me, in fact it angers me in extreme, mostly when ignorance is portrayed as smartness. Furthermore, adepts (or so self called) of the Book of Changes who don't know to change and adapt when caught in an error by ignorance, are really an absurd.
3.- Yes, I will leave this forum, but I will most certainly will not leave, uncontested in a public view, such an absurdity of behavior and concept in a forum which others may take as a serious source of knowledge, I will stay for as long as it takes until perhaps one of you realize the absurdity of your position . Furthermore, I was never the kind to allow to be chased away by ignorance and prejudice and I will not start now.
4.- In all your absurdity and ignorance, you have clinged to the name toki-moai and the existence of someone who receives payment for creating one for you, for claiming exclusion knowledge or knowledge of inexistence or knowledge by ignorance if you prefer, all the time and in spite of having been directed to realize what it is and what it means, you have willingly ignored the main facts: beyond names which you may have not known until now, the symbol called toki-moai and its properties have existed and permeated all philosophies and religions through history and even modern society, your own signature which comes from what were rings, stamps or in China chop signs, is based in the belief of representing yourself in symbols and to write or to stamp it was originally your way to make yourself present and in contact with all events and carry you luck in those events, any historical researcher knows that. To pay for a knowledgeable source create your symbol was and is done in exchange for money or some way of payment throughout history in all societies, to receive compensation doesn't invalidate a belief, otherwise churches,temples and so could never survive economically. I guess that you purchased somewhere your first I Ching book, perhaps even in this forum and you may have purchased even your tossing set, didn't you? I guess it didn't stop its accuracy ? Nevertheless, what is on the table is not a lesson on basic socioeconomics which you seem to need, but the main subject is the existence and validity of symbols created for personal connection with the Universe, under whichever name these exist, toki-moai, mandala, totem or whatever, their existence and propagation is undeniable for even the simplest observer.
5.- Your attitude not only reveals ignorance and the incapacity to accept it and to move on to correct it, but your extreme need to justify your ignorance through bullying and ridiculing, the very tools of the ignorant and egocentric. I am and we are all teachers of pupils and pupils of teachers ALL our lives, you have not certainly arrived to know all and judging by your attitude towards new knowledge, you never will even be close to it, unless you take this as a lesson and you incorporate in your life the Book of Changes as it was intended to be, a tool for teaching flow, adaptation and the flow of events, not just a divination toy.
6.- The I Ching is based in the drawing of lines which represent the Universe and its elements, you and the world, what you call a trigram, in Yonaguni or any other place of the Three Kingdoms of RyuKyu would have been called a toki-moai, the Union of All Times. Each time you toss your objects and create writing a combination of lines which you will call hexagrams, you have just created a toki-moai in RyuKyuan dialect, each time you have bought an I Ching book or table, you purchased and yes, you used your money, in a catalog of toki-moais, only the language in which you call it is different. Each time you ridicule the existence of toki-moai, you ridicule the very thing you say you believe in, the hexagrams and trigrams of the I Ching.
7.-If the above didn't make you yet realize how childish you have been or how ignorant you are in matters you should know, if you still want to portray me as a virtual charlatan or even a scam and yourself as the serious student of I Ching, lets make a test, I will ask you some questions, if you know the answers, this is a real serious forum and you know what you are doing, if you don't know the answers or you need to click many links to find it, you are just playing around with something you don't understand and you have the chance to change mind and start to really study what is a symbol, called toki-moai or stupa or totem or talisman or trigram, what it represents and how is it related with the I Ching. Lets go for it:
A.- The first practicioners of the I Ching system did not use coins or sticks or so for tossing, they didn't even toss anything in the air, what they used, how they used it and how it becomes to be substituted by coins or sticks ? (Please don't go for the burnt tortoise shells, that was not I Ching yet)
B.- A simple one: Were the lines of the trigrams always straight? If not, how they were and where were shown by first time?
C.- Why if I Ching is binary, having only two kind of lines, the basical figure is a triad, a trigram ? (Basic one)
D.- Which should be your physical position in relation with the North when tossing for it gives true results? Which is the best season? the best hour? the best moon? the best wind? Does it change in the South Hemisphere?
E.- How changes the results to toss with the left or right hand?
F.- Which illness or situation the I Ching cannot and will never be able to reveal because of its own nature ?
G.- Which was the result, the trigrams, called an order from heaven, which produced the battle which ended the Shang Dinasty and made the I Ching become an officially recognized system by the imperial court ? (the easiest one of all the questions)
H.- What was taught to happen if you engraved in Jade a result or reading of the I Ching and used it for stamping a message sent to your enemy? what happened if you integrated it in your own chop-stamp signature? what happened if you stamped it in a paper and burn it?
I.- In the modern approach of I Ching through the theory of Synchronicity, which is the main physical condition which must be complied with when tossing for a result can be true and not missleading?
J.- The simplest of all: Why the lines are horizontal and not vertical? and how they were aligned in the earlier times? You can also add why there is a full line and an interrupted one, how each of these relate to Universe, time and events? Please don't reply with heaven and earth or binary reasons, that is only a vulgarization.
Here you are, lets see... Please be aware that you are not answering me, so avoid excuses for not replying, you are answering yourself, you are justifying if you can be taken seriously in your knowledge and if all your previous ideas about what one culture in the world was calling toki-moai while others called in other ways, is something you can talk about in any possible way. It will also reveal if you know what I Ching really is or you just follow the herd without having any idea where are you going or why.
I anxiously await for the answers to the above questions from all those senior and junior members (and even moderator), who so openly expressed their point of view previously...
Of course you can choose to not answer and even answer with one more attitude, all intelligent readers will understand why you do that ...
Enjoy! :bows:
Well, lets see if I can make myself crystal clear:
1.- I don't mind a bit if you believe in the properties of an artifact or a symbol, be it called Toki-Moai in Ryukyuan (or Loochooan) be called stupa in Tibet, mandala in a more modern way extracted from sanskrit, manè in Caraja dialect or any other name in another language or tradition. Much less I care if you use your money to get one or not, I never asked you to believe or to obtain one in any way.
2.- I DO mind about ignorance, as the scholar I am and even if ignorance in the non educated doesn't bother me more far than to try to help in programmmes to literate the illiterate, ignorance portrayed as knowledge, which is the case of most who have sent many postings in this thread, is only the proof of extreme egocentrism and incapacity to learn and DOES bother me, in fact it angers me in extreme, mostly when ignorance is portrayed as smartness. Furthermore, adepts (or so self called) of the Book of Changes who don't know to change and adapt when caught in an error by ignorance, are really an absurd.
3.- Yes, I will leave this forum, but I will most certainly will not leave, uncontested in a public view, such an absurdity of behavior and concept in a forum which others may take as a serious source of knowledge, I will stay for as long as it takes until perhaps one of you realize the absurdity of your position . Furthermore, I was never the kind to allow to be chased away by ignorance and prejudice and I will not start now.
4.- In all your absurdity and ignorance, you have clinged to the name toki-moai and the existence of someone who receives payment for creating one for you, for claiming exclusion knowledge or knowledge of inexistence or knowledge by ignorance if you prefer, all the time and in spite of having been directed to realize what it is and what it means, you have willingly ignored the main facts: beyond names which you may have not known until now, the symbol called toki-moai and its properties have existed and permeated all philosophies and religions through history and even modern society, your own signature which comes from what were rings, stamps or in China chop signs, is based in the belief of representing yourself in symbols and to write or to stamp it was originally your way to make yourself present and in contact with all events and carry you luck in those events, any historical researcher knows that. To pay for a knowledgeable source create your symbol was and is done in exchange for money or some way of payment throughout history in all societies, to receive compensation doesn't invalidate a belief, otherwise churches,temples and so could never survive economically. I guess that you purchased somewhere your first I Ching book, perhaps even in this forum and you may have purchased even your tossing set, didn't you? I guess it didn't stop its accuracy ? Nevertheless, what is on the table is not a lesson on basic socioeconomics which you seem to need, but the main subject is the existence and validity of symbols created for personal connection with the Universe, under whichever name these exist, toki-moai, mandala, totem or whatever, their existence and propagation is undeniable for even the simplest observer.
5.- Your attitude not only reveals ignorance and the incapacity to accept it and to move on to correct it, but your extreme need to justify your ignorance through bullying and ridiculing, the very tools of the ignorant and egocentric. I am and we are all teachers of pupils and pupils of teachers ALL our lives, you have not certainly arrived to know all and judging by your attitude towards new knowledge, you never will even be close to it, unless you take this as a lesson and you incorporate in your life the Book of Changes as it was intended to be, a tool for teaching flow, adaptation and the flow of events, not just a divination toy.
6.- The I Ching is based in the drawing of lines which represent the Universe and its elements, you and the world, what you call a trigram, in Yonaguni or any other place of the Three Kingdoms of RyuKyu would have been called a toki-moai, the Union of All Times. Each time you toss your objects and create writing a combination of lines which you will call hexagrams, you have just created a toki-moai in RyuKyuan dialect, each time you have bought an I Ching book or table, you purchased and yes, you used your money, in a catalog of toki-moais, only the language in which you call it is different. Each time you ridicule the existence of toki-moai, you ridicule the very thing you say you believe in, the hexagrams and trigrams of the I Ching.
7.-If the above didn't make you yet realize how childish you have been or how ignorant you are in matters you should know, if you still want to portray me as a virtual charlatan or even a scam and yourself as the serious student of I Ching, lets make a test, I will ask you some questions, if you know the answers, this is a real serious forum and you know what you are doing, if you don't know the answers or you need to click many links to find it, you are just playing around with something you don't understand and you have the chance to change mind and start to really study what is a symbol, called toki-moai or stupa or totem or talisman or trigram, what it represents and how is it related with the I Ching. Lets go for it:
A.- The first practicioners of the I Ching system did not use coins or sticks or so for tossing, they didn't even toss anything in the air, what they used, how they used it and how it becomes to be substituted by coins or sticks ? (Please don't go for the burnt tortoise shells, that was not I Ching yet)
B.- A simple one: Were the lines of the trigrams always straight? If not, how they were and where were shown by first time?
C.- Why if I Ching is binary, having only two kind of lines, the basical figure is a triad, a trigram ? (Basic one)
D.- Which should be your physical position in relation with the North when tossing for it gives true results? Which is the best season? the best hour? the best moon? the best wind? Does it change in the South Hemisphere?
E.- How changes the results to toss with the left or right hand?
F.- Which illness or situation the I Ching cannot and will never be able to reveal because of its own nature ?
G.- Which was the result, the trigrams, called an order from heaven, which produced the battle which ended the Shang Dinasty and made the I Ching become an officially recognized system by the imperial court ? (the easiest one of all the questions)
H.- What was taught to happen if you engraved in Jade a result or reading of the I Ching and used it for stamping a message sent to your enemy? what happened if you integrated it in your own chop-stamp signature? what happened if you stamped it in a paper and burn it?
I.- In the modern approach of I Ching through the theory of Synchronicity, which is the main physical condition which must be complied with when tossing for a result can be true and not missleading?
J.- The simplest of all: Why the lines are horizontal and not vertical? and how they were aligned in the earlier times? You can also add why there is a full line and an interrupted one, how each of these relate to Universe, time and events? Please don't reply with heaven and earth or binary reasons, that is only a vulgarization.
Here you are, lets see... Please be aware that you are not answering me, so avoid excuses for not replying, you are answering yourself, you are justifying if you can be taken seriously in your knowledge and if all your previous ideas about what one culture in the world was calling toki-moai while others called in other ways, is something you can talk about in any possible way. It will also reveal if you know what I Ching really is or you just follow the herd without having any idea where are you going or why.
I anxiously await for the answers to the above questions from all those senior and junior members (and even moderator), who so openly expressed their point of view previously...
Of course you can choose to not answer and even answer with one more attitude, all intelligent readers will understand why you do that ...
Enjoy! :bows:
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2007
- Messages
- 3,566
- Reaction score
- 135
Laureet, you don't seem to understand the impression you are giving here. Who knows? You may be right about your Toki-Moai but it was the WAY you went about defending your beliefs and opinions - and they can be nothing more than that - which caused problems. It is the WAY you approach these things not necessarily the content.
Did you ever think for one moment why it is that you are considered a spammer? And if you are not, did you ever think that you may have to refine your approach in drastic ways?
In other words, NO one cares if you consider yourself a scholar or layman, though it seems you have invested a great deal of your own energy to ensure that you appear scholarly to others.
Your present missive is one big projection listing the very criticisms that you yourself are exhibiting, yet your self-importance blinds you to it.
You are angry because your ego is bruised, nothing more.
Topal
To put it another way:
Confucius says - beekeeper attracts more bees with honey than with vinegar.
Or in plain English: insulting people by calling them ignorant while claiming superior knowledge, and directing them, as proof of your superior knowledge, to organisations about which nothing can be found (apart from a link to disaster management, not the subject of this thread), and then insulting them some more for querying the validity of such "proof" and organisation is not the best way to make your point.
As someone said, symbols have power. The cross has held half the world in thrall for two thousand years, and the nazi version of the swastika is banned in Germany for a very good reason. What is special about toki-moia over and above other symbols has not yet been elucidated or explained.
The power of symbol - as rosada wrote - lies in its ability to ground us. It also nurtures our imagination and emotions. In what way does the toki-moai achieve that?
And what, I wonder, is its relation to the Yi? That series of defiant questions in no way answers that. How about a bit of calm scholarly exposition, for a change, since Laureet claims to be a scholar?
Confucius says - beekeeper attracts more bees with honey than with vinegar.
Or in plain English: insulting people by calling them ignorant while claiming superior knowledge, and directing them, as proof of your superior knowledge, to organisations about which nothing can be found (apart from a link to disaster management, not the subject of this thread), and then insulting them some more for querying the validity of such "proof" and organisation is not the best way to make your point.
As someone said, symbols have power. The cross has held half the world in thrall for two thousand years, and the nazi version of the swastika is banned in Germany for a very good reason. What is special about toki-moia over and above other symbols has not yet been elucidated or explained.
The power of symbol - as rosada wrote - lies in its ability to ground us. It also nurtures our imagination and emotions. In what way does the toki-moai achieve that?
And what, I wonder, is its relation to the Yi? That series of defiant questions in no way answers that. How about a bit of calm scholarly exposition, for a change, since Laureet claims to be a scholar?
hollis
visitor
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2006
- Messages
- 666
- Reaction score
- 7
i am willing
laureet, I am willing to believe this works, if the most destitute person in this community is given a donation of a toki moai, and uses it, and sees improvement in their life, then I am happy.
laureet, I am willing to believe this works, if the most destitute person in this community is given a donation of a toki moai, and uses it, and sees improvement in their life, then I am happy.
Hello
I am not really interested in making anyone believe in this or anything else, neither in how someone in this forum can obtain such a thing (toki-moai) as a gift, commercially or in any way , my only interest was in my first message to share a tool which may help others, and in the latest chain to show the absurdity of ignorance when carried to the believe that what you don't know or ever heard about is non existent. After fencing with Google worshippers who accuse others of what themselves suffer, I ended by providing a display of who I am and what I know in the area of the Yi how some erroneously call the Book of Changes, just for bullies know that I talk the talk and walk the walk not speak about what I don't know. But obviously who could know more than them ? I still wait for someone who can show some real knowledge of what we are talking about.
Anyway, your open mind is refreshing
I am not really interested in making anyone believe in this or anything else, neither in how someone in this forum can obtain such a thing (toki-moai) as a gift, commercially or in any way , my only interest was in my first message to share a tool which may help others, and in the latest chain to show the absurdity of ignorance when carried to the believe that what you don't know or ever heard about is non existent. After fencing with Google worshippers who accuse others of what themselves suffer, I ended by providing a display of who I am and what I know in the area of the Yi how some erroneously call the Book of Changes, just for bullies know that I talk the talk and walk the walk not speak about what I don't know. But obviously who could know more than them ?
I still wait for someone who can show some real knowledge of what we are talking about. Anyway, your open mind is refreshing
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 17, 1971
- Messages
- 5,120
- Reaction score
- 109
Laureet, I did ask you before not to take the high road with us. You are on the defensive and for a good reason, but, that doesn't warrant arrogance cloaked in veiled scholarship. This forum, with the exception of a few "occasional scholars" and a couple of them with tenure, has never claimed to be a "school" of the Yi.
Now, your first couple of messages set the tone for how you are perceived in the forum, with the repetition of the same message, links to a site that "sells" something, etc. I'd still give the Toki-Moai (the concept and how is sold and advertised) the benefit of the doubt. My mind pulls more towards Daoism (and a mix of other beliefs) than I care to admit on a good day and I do believe in talismans. So, what you are sharing isn't foreign to me. I'd like, though, to ask you a question and I hope you'll give me an honest answer: are you, in any way, involved in the selling of these artifacts or are you, simply, a satisfied customer?
L
Now, your first couple of messages set the tone for how you are perceived in the forum, with the repetition of the same message, links to a site that "sells" something, etc. I'd still give the Toki-Moai (the concept and how is sold and advertised) the benefit of the doubt. My mind pulls more towards Daoism (and a mix of other beliefs) than I care to admit on a good day and I do believe in talismans. So, what you are sharing isn't foreign to me. I'd like, though, to ask you a question and I hope you'll give me an honest answer: are you, in any way, involved in the selling of these artifacts or are you, simply, a satisfied customer?
L
You haven't answered a single question, Laureet. You have directed us to suspect or irrelevant websites, including one (the UNWDP) which is not a website, but a security-protected portal that tells us nothing at all about this organisation. All we know about it is that it is involved in disaster management, which is a far cry from symbolism, you'll agree. None of the sites actually explain the toki-moai, or its relationship to the Yi, or to Gnosticism for that matter. You continue to insult people, and fling all sorts of unsubstantiated claims about (the latest being that the Yi is erroneously called the book of changes). Is that the way of the wise scholar? I think not.
My understanding of a mandala is that its spiritual strength comes from the making of it. That is, in order to benefit fully, you must make a mandala. Simply looking at it is not enough. If a toki-moai is a form in nature that is our own personal power symbol, then surely we benefit only if we discover it for ourselves, and not have it spooned out to us to then stamp willy-nilly about the place? And what makes the toki-moai more powerful, for instance, than the reiki symbols, which are not personal symbols, of course, but are transmitted privately, and for the benefit of all?
My understanding of a mandala is that its spiritual strength comes from the making of it. That is, in order to benefit fully, you must make a mandala. Simply looking at it is not enough. If a toki-moai is a form in nature that is our own personal power symbol, then surely we benefit only if we discover it for ourselves, and not have it spooned out to us to then stamp willy-nilly about the place? And what makes the toki-moai more powerful, for instance, than the reiki symbols, which are not personal symbols, of course, but are transmitted privately, and for the benefit of all?
Last edited:
Straight question, straight answer
Straight answer to your question: NO ! I am not involved in selling or mind who buys. If I am satisfied? now I keep that answer to myself or who I trust can benefit of its answer...
Furthermore I never even suggested to anyone buy one and you are wrong, I never submitted a link to who sells it. The link was in a message I found in Amazon.com and I quoted it without editing it. From there someone got the idea that I was linking to them, someone also mistaked me for a guy and someone called me spammer with bad taste, ...so, before accussing me of hard ball game, give a look on how those who obviously need glasses for reading, accused me based on a message from other forum which I made the mistake to quote here...
As said before, read good and you will see that what I desdcribe above is precise. I don't give a bit about who believes or not and less than all who buys or gets one, it is just a tool .
How I came to trust it? I have other way to do things, I don't believe I know all under the sky and dismiss what seems to be unlikely, I do believe in finding the forgotten book in the antique shop, the one nobody buys, so I bought the thing and THEN I submitted to who knows about and I trust his opinion on these matters, for seeing if it was the real thing or I was getting a refund which is easy in PayPal, then after verifying its possible veracity, I tried it and found if it worked for me. I believe in discovering and trial, not in useless debate with empty hands and nothing to show for basis, I take the risk to try so I can discover, ...but hey...that is my way to do things...:bows:
Straight answer to your question: NO ! I am not involved in selling or mind who buys. If I am satisfied? now I keep that answer to myself or who I trust can benefit of its answer...
Furthermore I never even suggested to anyone buy one and you are wrong, I never submitted a link to who sells it. The link was in a message I found in Amazon.com and I quoted it without editing it. From there someone got the idea that I was linking to them, someone also mistaked me for a guy and someone called me spammer with bad taste, ...so, before accussing me of hard ball game, give a look on how those who obviously need glasses for reading, accused me based on a message from other forum which I made the mistake to quote here...
As said before, read good and you will see that what I desdcribe above is precise. I don't give a bit about who believes or not and less than all who buys or gets one, it is just a tool .
How I came to trust it? I have other way to do things, I don't believe I know all under the sky and dismiss what seems to be unlikely, I do believe in finding the forgotten book in the antique shop, the one nobody buys, so I bought the thing and THEN I submitted to who knows about and I trust his opinion on these matters, for seeing if it was the real thing or I was getting a refund which is easy in PayPal, then after verifying its possible veracity, I tried it and found if it worked for me. I believe in discovering and trial, not in useless debate with empty hands and nothing to show for basis, I take the risk to try so I can discover, ...but hey...that is my way to do things...:bows:
Last edited:
Notes between lines:
I gave you my answers above, will you give me yours to my questions now? I am still waiting....
I gave you my answers above, will you give me yours to my questions now? I am still waiting....
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 17, 1971
- Messages
- 5,120
- Reaction score
- 109
Thank you so much! Now, can we put the Toki-Moai to rest for a while? I invite you to share some of your knowledge of the Yi in the forum so everybody benefits. If claims about the Yi are made that seem "novel" to the rest of us, I for one expect bibliographical references that I can relate to and further study. I said this because there are those that claim "secret lineage knowledge or verbal transmissions thereof" and I'm a firm believer that all about the Yi is to be found in print and archaeological findings. All else are apocryphal conclusions of small esoteric schools.
Fair enough. I take this to be an honest opinion based on personal experience.
L
Fine...
Thank you for your offer, I have the feeling to say ..thanks but no thanks (from my logic side) but my other side says Why not? Lets see where this road goes to...
Some rules though: your rules are to get bibliographic reference or you threat with disbelief, my rules are: 1) believe what you want, it doesn't affect my knowledge...and after all it is your prerogative 2) Most accurate bibliography is in cantonese or mandarin, some in ancient dialects, can you handle it with some web resource or something ? English, French and Spanish versions and translations miss many points and deform others just because the very way in which ideogram based languages describe something which might not be the same when translated into a chaligraphic language based on convention of symbols (letters) and combinations. Ideas are not words and this has been the obstacle to the best translations, to read in the originals or to have somne resource which can provide multiple possible translations, is a must if you want bibliographic reference. 3) I can suggest references but don't expect pointing to or so, you are on your own. 4) It is completely untrue in my opinion that all I Ching is in written records, as a matter of fact there was an edict from King Wu about preserving the essence of the I Ching in secret writing and paintings which could not be understood without key knowledge, and that was long after the I Ching was in use even under other names which carry us to unexplored territory and lots of possible work on the true origins. Not even the Shu Jing is totally reliable. Oral lineage is most of the times untrue on matters related with ancient religions or beliefs which can bring profit to whom "rediscover" them, but there are many manuscripts and images as well as oral transmitted stories which contain true knowledge, to discard those in favor of bibliography or worst translated bibliography will let you with very limited new data to discover. Careful scrutiny by comparison with language and seemingly unrelated areas of the same alleged epoch will however validate what is true most of the times while bibliography only will not. (My Opinion)
5) For I can see if I know something you don't, first I need to know how much you know, so...I am still waiting the answers to the questions I posed in a previous message....
Thank you for your offer, I have the feeling to say ..thanks but no thanks (from my logic side) but my other side says Why not? Lets see where this road goes to...
Some rules though: your rules are to get bibliographic reference or you threat with disbelief, my rules are: 1) believe what you want, it doesn't affect my knowledge...and after all it is your prerogative 2) Most accurate bibliography is in cantonese or mandarin, some in ancient dialects, can you handle it with some web resource or something ? English, French and Spanish versions and translations miss many points and deform others just because the very way in which ideogram based languages describe something which might not be the same when translated into a chaligraphic language based on convention of symbols (letters) and combinations. Ideas are not words and this has been the obstacle to the best translations, to read in the originals or to have somne resource which can provide multiple possible translations, is a must if you want bibliographic reference. 3) I can suggest references but don't expect pointing to or so, you are on your own. 4) It is completely untrue in my opinion that all I Ching is in written records, as a matter of fact there was an edict from King Wu about preserving the essence of the I Ching in secret writing and paintings which could not be understood without key knowledge, and that was long after the I Ching was in use even under other names which carry us to unexplored territory and lots of possible work on the true origins. Not even the Shu Jing is totally reliable. Oral lineage is most of the times untrue on matters related with ancient religions or beliefs which can bring profit to whom "rediscover" them, but there are many manuscripts and images as well as oral transmitted stories which contain true knowledge, to discard those in favor of bibliography or worst translated bibliography will let you with very limited new data to discover. Careful scrutiny by comparison with language and seemingly unrelated areas of the same alleged epoch will however validate what is true most of the times while bibliography only will not. (My Opinion)
5) For I can see if I know something you don't, first I need to know how much you know, so...I am still waiting the answers to the questions I posed in a previous message....
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2007
- Messages
- 3,566
- Reaction score
- 135
"...if you know the answers, this is a real serious forum and you know what you are doing, if you don't know the answers or you need to click many links to find it, you are just playing around with something you don't understand and you have the chance to change mind and start to really study what is a symbol, called toki-moai or stupa or totem or talisman or trigram, what it represents and how is it related with the I Ching.......
.....Of course you can choose to not answer and even answer with one more attitude, all intelligent readers will understand why you do that ..."
Yes, I read what you wrote the first time.
Again, you chose to ignore the point I was trying to make which was about how your presented yourself and your lack of awareness about the impression you give to others. It is not what theories you know and not how clever you think you are nor is it about who answers what theoretical questions about the I Ching. It is about YOUR attitude. This is not a competition to see who knows more. Good grief.
Topal
.....Of course you can choose to not answer and even answer with one more attitude, all intelligent readers will understand why you do that ..."
Yes, I read what you wrote the first time.
Again, you chose to ignore the point I was trying to make which was about how your presented yourself and your lack of awareness about the impression you give to others. It is not what theories you know and not how clever you think you are nor is it about who answers what theoretical questions about the I Ching. It is about YOUR attitude. This is not a competition to see who knows more. Good grief.
Topal
dobro p
visitor
- Joined
- May 19, 1972
- Messages
- 3,223
- Reaction score
- 208
You used 'ignorant' about ten times in your overlong response to my question - you really want to call people 'ignorant', don't you? That tells me that you identify yourself as a person who *isn't* ignorant, as somebody who knows. But your response to my question is riddled with ignorance. I'll show you what I mean:
Well, if you're really angry after having just arrived at this forum, without having taken the time to find out how this forum works, or what the atmosphere of this forum is, or what the values are, or what the people are like before you start throwing your weight around, that's just ignorant. And rude. And stupid, because if these ideas about toki-moai are so important, you're not going to get people seriously interested in them if you offend.
There you go being ignorant again. If you think you're going to convince anybody here of the absurdity of their position, you're not going to succeed, you're just going to convince everybody here of your arrogance.
There you go accusing people of ignorance again. You really have a strong need to tell people how ignorant they are, and it's really an unattractive trait. But I asked you how a mere symbol can bring about significant change in a person's life, and not only did you not answer my question, but you changed the subject. That's a pretty ignorant way to conduct an online exchange, Laureet.
Again, you avoid answering my question, and change the subject from toki-moai to the Yi. (Is that because you are ignorant of the answer, Laureet?) But here's yet another example of your ignorance: my joking posts were not meant to ridicule the toki-moai, but to accomplish two things: first, to challenge the idea, in a humorous way, that a mere symbol can bring about important change in a person's life without any effort or inner transformation on their part; second, to have a bit of fun. You completely failed to see that. You're a pretty humorless person, I think.
Okay, every symbol in the world is just a toki-moai by a different name. The big 'M' in front of Macdonald's is just a toki-moai by a different name. The cross on the top of the church is just a Christian toki-moai. The symbol of the little man on the door of the men's washroom is just a toki-moai. But again, I'm not ridiculing the existence of toki-moai, I'm ridiculing the rather pathetic belief in 'magic feathers' that can change our lives for the better for a mere modest investment in money. And the fact that you didn't see what it was I was ridiculing demonstrates either your lack of perceptiveness or your ignorance. Or both.
No, let's not go for it. The is your biggest evasion of my question so far. You completely failed to answer my question to you, and now you're trying to lay down a smokescreen by asking me, AND EVERYBODY ELSE HERE INCLUDING THE FORUM MODERATOR a bunch of questions that have nothing to do with toki-moai. Laureet, what is wrong with your brain? Just answer the question I put to you originally, and stop posting these overlong posts with stuff that goes in every direction but the right one. Stop being so ignorant, Laureet. Or just leave.
Man, you're confused. I'm answering *you*, I'm not answering me. Get a grip.
You put that little bowing icon at the end of each of your posts, but I think you're really quite the opposite. I think your inability to think straight, your evasiveness and topic-shifting and overlong posts, your repeatedly calling people here 'ignorant' are evidence of a pretty ignorant, pretty arrogant personality.
Well, if you're really angry after having just arrived at this forum, without having taken the time to find out how this forum works, or what the atmosphere of this forum is, or what the values are, or what the people are like before you start throwing your weight around, that's just ignorant. And rude. And stupid, because if these ideas about toki-moai are so important, you're not going to get people seriously interested in them if you offend.
There you go being ignorant again. If you think you're going to convince anybody here of the absurdity of their position, you're not going to succeed, you're just going to convince everybody here of your arrogance.
There you go accusing people of ignorance again. You really have a strong need to tell people how ignorant they are, and it's really an unattractive trait. But I asked you how a mere symbol can bring about significant change in a person's life, and not only did you not answer my question, but you changed the subject. That's a pretty ignorant way to conduct an online exchange, Laureet.
Again, you avoid answering my question, and change the subject from toki-moai to the Yi. (Is that because you are ignorant of the answer, Laureet?) But here's yet another example of your ignorance: my joking posts were not meant to ridicule the toki-moai, but to accomplish two things: first, to challenge the idea, in a humorous way, that a mere symbol can bring about important change in a person's life without any effort or inner transformation on their part; second, to have a bit of fun. You completely failed to see that. You're a pretty humorless person, I think.
Okay, every symbol in the world is just a toki-moai by a different name. The big 'M' in front of Macdonald's is just a toki-moai by a different name. The cross on the top of the church is just a Christian toki-moai. The symbol of the little man on the door of the men's washroom is just a toki-moai. But again, I'm not ridiculing the existence of toki-moai, I'm ridiculing the rather pathetic belief in 'magic feathers' that can change our lives for the better for a mere modest investment in money. And the fact that you didn't see what it was I was ridiculing demonstrates either your lack of perceptiveness or your ignorance. Or both.
No, let's not go for it. The is your biggest evasion of my question so far. You completely failed to answer my question to you, and now you're trying to lay down a smokescreen by asking me, AND EVERYBODY ELSE HERE INCLUDING THE FORUM MODERATOR a bunch of questions that have nothing to do with toki-moai. Laureet, what is wrong with your brain? Just answer the question I put to you originally, and stop posting these overlong posts with stuff that goes in every direction but the right one. Stop being so ignorant, Laureet. Or just leave.
Man, you're confused. I'm answering *you*, I'm not answering me. Get a grip.
You put that little bowing icon at the end of each of your posts, but I think you're really quite the opposite. I think your inability to think straight, your evasiveness and topic-shifting and overlong posts, your repeatedly calling people here 'ignorant' are evidence of a pretty ignorant, pretty arrogant personality.
dobro p
visitor
- Joined
- May 19, 1972
- Messages
- 3,223
- Reaction score
- 208
Here, Laureet - I'll help you. Here's the question I asked you, and which you completely failed to answer:
"Instead of telling people how ignorant and disrespectful they are, why don't you explain the basis of your faith in toki-moai. I don't see how a mere symbol can bring about significant change in my life. I *can* see how self-knowledge and the long, hard work of self-discipline and inner transformation can bring about significant change in my life, but I do not see how replicating a mere symbol can accomplish that. Can you explain how the toki-moai can do that, simply and clearly?"
Would you like to try again? Do you think you can do it this time? Without changing the subject, I mean.
"Instead of telling people how ignorant and disrespectful they are, why don't you explain the basis of your faith in toki-moai. I don't see how a mere symbol can bring about significant change in my life. I *can* see how self-knowledge and the long, hard work of self-discipline and inner transformation can bring about significant change in my life, but I do not see how replicating a mere symbol can accomplish that. Can you explain how the toki-moai can do that, simply and clearly?"
Would you like to try again? Do you think you can do it this time? Without changing the subject, I mean.
- Joined
- Sep 17, 1971
- Messages
- 5,120
- Reaction score
- 109
Yes, that I will do.
Shoot. With all you've got. Even if there's something I can't digest myself, there are those here that certainly can. That's why I say that your knowledge can "benefit all"
Thanks, I've books on the Yi pouring out of my ears and what I don't have and somebody points out to me, I'll most likely buy, even in Chinese, of which I have quite a few.
Suggest away, please.
Yes, your opinion. Even the best kept secrets and oral traditions must be put down on ink and paper at some point in history. That some remain "hidden" does not mean they are not in "print".
I wasn't proposing to test you; I was inviting you to share knowledge. As for Yi knowledge, well..., I don't have much. I'll never make a such a claim as being a "scholar of the Yi". Furthermore, if you go through my postings you'll notice a certain pattern of "goofiness". I like it that way...
L
Last edited: