Trees

[flashlight]

Hi all,

First some background -- on my property there is an area I call the "little forest" with a group of very tall ash and acacia trees. Over the past 10 years, I have lost several due to extreme weather conditions (too much rain, extreme heat and dry spell, illness). One tall ash fell end of February, fortunately in the right direction causing little damage. 3 ash and 3 acacias remain, which, if they break/fall will do damage.
Two ash are ill and will be cut down. The last one is starting to show signs of the same illness but there is no emergency (yet). "Experts" give me contradictory echos on the acacia trees: dying/cut down now v. reduce by half-height, they will regenerate, estimate another 10 years of life in them. This is the only part of the property with tall trees and shade, and the trees (as long as they are strong!) also act as windbreakers (I get violent winds coming down the valley). So in the very near future, I have to decide whether to:
- cut down 2 or 3 ash, whose top half is dry/dead, but the bottom half is launching new branches
- cut down or reduce 3 acacias
- cut down the third ash tree or not.
If I cut them all down, I have room to start over and plant new species (but it will take many years before I get shade and wind protection). There is no guarantee the acacia trees will last another 10 years, even if it looks likely.

I asked yi, "tell me about the 3 acacias' longevity" > 22.4 to 30

I get the 22.4, soaring beauty (and they are SOARING, visible from very very far!). But I do not understand the resulting hex (Clarity), which is what I am asking Yi for LOL!

I don't like the idea of felling living things, I am attached to these trees and mourn the loss of all the others over the years. Yeah, I'm a tree hugger.... Yet they could pose real risks ...

What do you think Yi is telling me about the 3 acacias?
thanks
Flashlight...

 

[becalm]

Hexagram 30 - They are reaching for the Sun!

 

[Liselle]

For what it's worth, I had 22.4 with one other line just the other day. I had to go out and do something, but I had a bad headache and didn't feel well. The thing I had to do didn't have to be done right then, but it would start a process going sooner rather than later which I thought was a good idea.

I didn't understand my reading, but went anyway. There were no problems with getting the thing done. I was glad I went. My headache actually got better while I was out.

Hilary starts her commentary in her book with "A beautiful, dazzling energy makes its entrance... ." That seems about right. Despite how I felt beforehand I had unexpected energy once I got going.


Are the acacias in the same sort of condition as the ash, dead on top but doing better on the bottom? I think the reading bodes well for reducing them and letting them regenerate, if that's your option.

Seeing the reading as an answer to your question is a little tricky. "Tell me about their longevity" - best guess is Yi's describing their longevity - the next part of their life in other words - as being like these beautiful prancing horses. I don't think it could possibly mean they're hopelessly ill and a risk to keep around. That seems like the polar opposite of the line. It says they're not robbers.

Is there any harm in trying, giving them a chance, and seeing what happens?

Hexagram 30 has a theme of rearing cattle, taking care of your cows (trees), which sounds like what you'd be doing.

'Clarity.
Constancy bears fruit.
Creating success.
Raising female cattle is good fortune.'


And what Becalm said about reaching for the sun! Look what it says here about them:

Acacia requires full sunlight

 

[flashlight]

Thanks Becalm and Liselle
The acacias are dead on top, seemingly OK and regenerating at the bottom. So the part that is reaching for the sun isn't profiting from it, unfortunately! The ash are the reverse. They look healthy - new branches, green spring leaves - but they are attacked at the base, two out of 3 have a hole you can put your hand it to your wrist, which shows they are rotting from inside (as was the case with the one that fell end Feb). The third ash is just starting to have this problem (can't put my fist in the hole yet) - thus not sure whether to drop it now or wait. Every time we get high winds, I am scared (this house sounds like Wuthering Heights!) and 4 or 5 trees (OK, they were not in top form, so they were vulnerable) fell in recent years because of high gusts.
If I reduce the acacias, it gives them a chance (I like that), but limits replanting (space/sun issues). If I take them down, I can start from scratch with different species (hopefully less sensitive) but it will be a long time before I have shade. In any event, even if I just down the ash and reduce the acacias, bye bye the VERY tall trees that make my house visible from far and away -- that'll be weird....

 

[Liselle]

Can the ashes, maybe especially the third one, be treated somehow? Is there medicine for trees? (I have no idea about anything like that.)

That article I linked to said acacias grow fast, so maybe they'll be tall again before too long. I think that would go along with 22.4, too, a surge of bright energy.

 

[flashlight]

Unfortunately, no the ashes can't be treated. You can imagine I asked everyone!!
Out of the 3 acacias, I think (my instincts - the expert huh ) one stands a valiant chance to rally and last another decade. The other 2 may also, but I'm less confident about them personally.
The glitch is reducing trees takes place in the fall, when the sap goes down, to give them the best chance to regrow from the bottom. At present, they are SO INCREDIBLY tall and the top half is dead, they can snap, break and cause damage with the slightest stress. ....

 

[becalm]

I think Line 4 suggests that the answer is in keeping it simple. What's the most simple solution? Don't overthink it.

 

[flashlight]

the most simple solution is knocking them all down.... but that doesn't make me happy...

 

[Liselle]

The glitch is reducing trees takes place in the fall

My best guess is if they posed a threat in the meantime, Yi would not have given you a reading that said they are allies, not robbers (adversaries, bandits, etc., depending on the translation), when you asked about their longevity. They will surge brilliantly over the rest of their lives, not cause you trouble, is what I think it's saying.

I understand your nervousness, though. Maybe another question specifically about getting through until fall would help.

 

[flashlight]

I'll do that, Liselle. Gotta get into the right zen mindset. It's Monday. Need I say more?

 

[flashlight]

Oh how I do not like this reading...
I asked Yi: "how will the 3 acacias, esp their canope, evolve in the next 6 months?" (bringing us to october).
24.1.6 to 23 (I hate 23).

Line 1​

'Not far away, returning – no regrets here.
From the source, good fortune.'

Line 6​

'Confused return, pitfall. There is calamity and blunder.
Using this to mobilize the armies: in the end there is great defeat.
For your state's leader, disaster.
For ten years, incapable of marching out.'

My interpretation may be totally subjective, but I'm seeing a crash and major damage.
Then again, I do have difficulty trusting readings to make big decisions (not so much because of Yi but because I always wonder if I asked the right question, tossed the coins properly focussed etc..)

 

[Liselle]

Oh dear, I was afraid this would happen. Almost said it and didn't - follow-up questions can be tricky.

I see your point that this is not the most reassuring reading in the world. But I don't think it says what you think it does.

Also it may not have been the best question. I have a ton of trouble with questions myself, so I don't feel very credible here, but I think there are a couple of problems:

1. It reminds me of questions I ask sometimes, which are almost kind of tortured if that makes any sense. Like I've deliberated over the words too much.
2. You asked about something internal to the trees. This is a lot like asking certain kinds of medical questions. It's exactly what you want to know, but the problem is you're not a tree expert (same as most of us aren't doctors), so if Yi answers literally you might not recognize what it's saying.
3. 
   

 

[Liselle]

Hit enter by mistake and posted before I was done - will continue...

 

[flashlight]

Ha ha ha ha, happens to me a lot!
But in the interim, following your beginning response,


I asked a much more general, generic question: What should I do about my little forest? (thinking in the back of my mind, what's left of it anyway since I've lost half the trees in the past decade).
Yi didn't dither: 7 UC.
I translate that to meaning take em all down.
My tummy just had a fit.

 

[Liselle]

I see your point about 7uc, and since it's your question, your reaction to the answer will be better than someone else's who's not involved (me). But I wonder if there's still room for confusion.

The oracle text says:

'The Army: with constancy.
Mature people, good fortune.
No mistake.'

It's calling on you to be "mature" and "constant." What does that mean, exactly? 7 doesn't literally say "chop them down," it only says act in an organized, disciplined way to achieve an objective.

Yes, an army Gets Things Done. Whether they dither or not depends on circumstances, I'd think. Sometimes it's wise not to dither, but maybe sometimes what looks like dithering is actually planning.

May I ask a naive question? Why can't they cut off just the dead part right now? How could cutting off completely dead stuff, even at the wrong time of year, hurt the living part? What if they'd cut most of the dead part off, but leave some of it attached, so they're sure not to cut into the living part at all at the wrong time? Could they even come back in the fall and finish it? (Of course that might get expensive, paying them twice.)


Back to 24.1.6 to 23... I see your point about 23. If anything was going to say "chop them down," 23 would probably be it. But, it's the relating hexagram, not the direct answer, not what you're to work with. It could easily be your assumption and not instructions. Relating hexagrams are the subjective part. They can be hard to pin down.

24 actually reminds me of 22.4 a little bit. 24 is about renewal, growing light. It refers to the equinox, the shortest day of the year, but from the point of view that from that day on, the light will only increase and move towards spring. It's usually a hopeful message. Bide your time over winter, spring will return, the world will be restored - that sort of thing.

24.1 is also usually an encouraging line - whatever-it-is is not far away. "No regrets." "Good fortune."

But I have no idea how to apply that to "How will the canopy evolve?" "The canopy is not far away"? -

Then there's 24.6 - a terrible line, on the face of it. But what it actually says is that someone or something is confused or deluded, and that "using this" (the confusion) to mobilize armies is a really bad idea. So first you have to identify the confusion/delusion.

'Confused return, pitfall.
There is calamity and blunder.
Using this to mobilise the armies: in the end there is great defeat.
For your state’s leader, disaster.
For ten years, incapable of marching out.'

Also, a sixth line is often a high-level overview, and sometimes isn't a direct answer to the question at all. So now you have an answer that's partly at a high remove, for a question that might be hard to grasp... I just don't know.

And then - follow-up readings have to go along with the first one, 22.4. Yi would not say "allies, not robbers" and then turn around and say the opposite.

I think at this point - if it was me, which of course it's not - I might ask really specific questions about alternatives. Something like, "What if nothing is done until fall?" or "How about cutting off the dead part now?"

 

[Liselle]

24 to 23 - those are in sequence, and usually mean cutting back / off / stripping in order to renew.

Here's what the Sequence wing, the Xugua text, says:

Returning follows from Hexagram 23, Stripping Away:
'Things cannot be completely used up. Stripping Away comes to an end on the outside, and there is turnaround on the inside, and so Returning follows.'

(I've been quoting from Hilary's translation, by the way.)

Chopping them down entirely would not allow for renewal at all, right? And Yi gave you both hexagrams, together, not 23 by itself. So I don't think doing just 23 is in the spirit of it...

I'd be more inclined to think Yi's emphasizing 24, renewal, but also saying 23 is part of that, in the background. Which you already knew - cutting off the dead part so the living part can renew.

At the risk of wishful thinking, I wonder if 24.1's "not far away" could mean cutting off the dead part right now, no matter that it's the wrong time. I think I'd at least ask the tree people that question and see what they say.

 

[hilary]

This is not directly reading-related, but... the best place for young trees to establish themselves and get off to a healthy start is in the shade of mature trees, as happens naturally. They stay small for years, are nourished through the mycorrhizal network, grow dense, strong wood, and when an opening in the canopy eventually lets them grow to their full height, they will be stronger and longer-lived as a result. Mature trees are allies, not robbers (maybe this is more reading-related than I thought?). Or so said a book I read by an expert forester, and I expect he's right.

 

[Liselle]

Ooh, Hilary found a tree thread! Thanks, Hilary! (This is a little like me finding cat threads, I think. )

Maybe Hilary's suggesting planting new trees in amongst the existing - not chopped down - trees? Very lovely idea.

Which as she said has nothing to do with the disposition of the dead part.

(Added - if you have time to read yet more things, Hilary wrote a whole blog post about this idea. You didn't cast hexagram 12, but it might still be interesting.

The need for Hexagram 12

Hexagram 12 is called Pi 否 - Blocked, Standstill, Stasis, Negation. It encapsulates the experience of being denied and stymied. The noble one's constancy bears no fruit: despite your best, most creative efforts, it just isn't happening.The Sequence into this one is (as so often) quite enigmatic:

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

)


-----

Another thoughtlette I started as Hilary was posting...

Wonder if 24 to 23 might possibly address the spring/fall dilemma?

They're archetypally those seasons. 23 is fall, when the leaves die, separate from the tree, strip away. 24 is the promise of spring.

So maybe another way to see the reading is spring in the foreground - your basic answer - with fall pushed to the background. Could that possibly be Yi trying to challenge assumptions about what season it's okay to do things in?

It really might not hurt anything to ask the tree people, and maybe also ask Yi specifically about trimming them now...

 

[Liselle]

More babbling from me ( ).

The glitch is reducing trees takes place in the fall, when the sap goes down, to give them the best chance to regrow from the bottom.

I re-read that, and you know what it sounds like to me? It sounds like pruning, where some living parts are indeed cut off, in order to encourage different kinds of growth. For instance, I think that's how Christmas trees end up as nice, fat, round Christmas trees and not tall pines - because their (living) tops are routinely pruned. It's how hedges end up hedge-shaped.

But that's not what you're doing at all. You want to remove dead parts only. You're not trying to prune for shaping purposes. There might be aspects in common - you're still cutting parts off, and you do want them to re-grow from the bottom - but your objective isn't to trim living parts. That's different. I can see how sap and normal pruning are related, but the dead parts don't have any sap...

Wonder if that's the confusion in 24.6?

 

[flashlight]

Hi Liselle & Hilary
Love your "babble", which it isn't, it's sound thinking and thanks Hilary for jumping in.
I hope to answer in a not too confusing convoluted way.

1. I did ask the tree experts whether we could cut back the acacias at the same time as cutting down the sick ash trees (because less expensive and my finances stink!). They said we could, BUT that to put all best chances on our side for them to rejuvenate well it would be best to do in the fall. We are talking cutting them down BY HALF (they are over 35m tall....), so not just dead branches or else they would not regenerate.

2. Yes, when all is well and healthy, baby trees grow best protected by mother-father trees (esp here with the high winds I get). Lots of below-ground tree communication and collaboration, even between species, that humans should actually emulate. But.... the mycorrhizal network is also spreading disease from ash to ash (they all have the same problem, 2 or 3 are already gone from my time on this property and left over stumps show the problem started even before then) and affecting the acacias too. The soil depth is meager and quality of the soil crummy (very heavy clay). We alternate between too much rain and very hot dry spells so while the roots rot, the top of the trees dry out. Not ideal for baby trees -- especially if a big tree or parts thereof snaps and falls on them. And this spring, after an uncommon warm spell, we got two weeks of freezing weather (made the news because most of the vineyard got hit). My fruit trees and even my magnolia (who had just finished blossoming) got burnt by the frost. It's tough being a plant these days!

3. The tree guy also said that if I took down only some, planted new baby trees and then decided or needed to cut down the others, it would be way more complicated (thus costly) because he'd have to be extra careful of the new baby trees in the same area. (Not the argument that will sway my decision though).

4. "24 to 23 - those are in sequence, and usually mean cutting back / off / stripping in order to renew." True, but that can also mean felling the existing trees to plan a new little forest with baby trees of other species that might be less affected by the illness that's killing the ash trees...

Argh, I wish I had a crystal ball -- to know the weather, to know what the trees are going to do when. I must go and sit with them and have a talk...

 

[Liselle]

I wish I had a crystal ball

Well that's sort of what Yi is, supposedly...

4. "24 to 23 - those are in sequence, and usually mean cutting back / off / stripping in order to renew." True, but that can also mean felling the existing trees to plan a new little forest with baby trees of other species that might be less affected by the illness that's killing the ash trees...

...except as you're coherently pointing out here, there are the chronic problems of what angle to see it from and what is it actually saying.

I mean, if we start from an assumption that Yi's actually trying to say something (which is not just me talking, Bradford Hatcher said it in an interview), then we should - somehow - be able to discern the message.

It might be that the entire context diaspora could help - the paired hexagrams, shadows, ideals, etc. etc. Stephen Karcher recommends it as a strategy, I've seen it with my own readings sometimes.

I don't have time now to look at it, and might not get anything out of it if I did (it's really hit-and-miss, with me - it's a lot to take in and I'm not that good at it in various ways).

If you plant baby trees into or on top of an infected mycorrhizal network - ?

What happens to infected mychorrhizal networks if the trees that are part of it die / get cut down? Does the infection go away? Does it keep living in the soil?

What if you did only cut off the dead parts - just to prevent the danger of them snapping off in the wind - and plant new baby trees under what's left of the existing ones? The current ones wouldn't renew, you're saying - maybe the renewal would be the new trees - would it help them to be below semi-tall trees even for a few years, if you'd then have to get rid of the current trees entirely?

Or could the delusion in 24.6 be the idea that there's anything at all that can be done? Could it mean it's all hopeless, what with the infected network, the weather... ???

 

[Liselle]

You might be best off right now just using and trusting your instincts about this, along with what the tree people tell you. Did they have anything to say about planting new trees on top of an infected network? Could you ask them?


Meanwhile, just for information...

I mean, if we start from an assumption that Yi's actually trying to say something (which is not just me talking, Bradford Hatcher said it in an interview), then we should - somehow - be able to discern the message.

Below is the quote from the interview, which Hilary graciously and through great labor transcribed for us as a tribute to Brad after his death.

(You can actually access this, this week - as part of the Clarity birthday celebrations, Hilary has opened the Change Circle Library to everyone for a week. The transcripts are down in the "Audio Archives" section.)

[00:07:59.780] - Bradford
I think that at the heart of it, the authors of the Yi were actually trying to say something,
and I think they were saying something specific with each of the lines and each of the texts

So I see it's more accurate to say not exactly that Yi is trying to say something specific, but that its authors were - and its authors are not who are providing actual readings. The power behind Yi, whatever you believe that to be, is what is speaking, via the texts, structure, etc.

I wonder if that's too fine a distinction - don't know.

 

[flashlight]

I am not a proficient reader/interpreter (as if that needed to be stated? LOL!) and typically when I ask a question, it is about something dear to my heart. Ergo, I cannot trust myself, not even to be objective, in striving to understand what (whatever force) is striving to tell me. I am grateful for the way more proficient and patient readers here

The tree people said that changing species would be good. Ash trees are ill all over the country and are being replaced. They suggested a walnut tree for instance, which I do not have in the garden. So I contacted a walnut tree producer, told them EVERYTHING that was going on, and they suggested one specific variety they feel would do well here. I may also plant another apple tree since my two are very very old.

We're getting rain at last (hopefully w/o wind) for the next few days, but when it lets up, I am going to go hug and talk to the trees. I do feel their energy oddly enough and with a bit of luck, I may get some useful info...

 

[Liselle]

To amuse myself while out I spent some time thinking about the shadow hexagrams, and I think it might help, though not really in a happy way. (But - hooray! - you might have found a happy way, so it won't matter. Except maybe to see some justification and make you feel on firmer ground.)

A shadow hexagram is an invention/ discovery of Stephen Karcher. It's the hexagram at the opposite end of the Sequence from the one you cast. Count backwards from the other end (subtracting from 65 does the same thing faster). A hexagram's shadow is usually the wrong way to think about your situation. The "shadow" quality seems to be that it seems, contrarily, like the obvious way to think about it - and that puts your interpretation into an unhelpful shadow, so to speak. So sometimes it's useful to look at the shadow and ask, "Am I thinking about it like this?" If you say "Aha, yes," you know you're off on the wrong track.

So 24's Shadow is 41, Decrease. Specifically affordable, manageable decrease:

'Decreasing: there is truth and confidence.
From the source, good fortune.
Not a mistake, there can be constancy.
Fruitful to have a direction to go.
How to use this?
Two simple vessels may be used for the offering.'

(The underlined part is what means manageable and affordable. Two simple vessels, not everything you have.)

(Also - notice how you've been calling the tree-trimming process "reduction." That fits 41 very well, I think.)

So far what we have is, "Reduction is the wrong way to think about this."


Relating hexagram 23, Stripping. Its shadow is 42, Increase, which in practice often seems to mean blessing via making improvements. (See 42's Image text:

'Wind and thunder: Increasing.
A noble one sees improvement, and so she changes.
When there is excess, she corrects it.')

Piece no. 2: the wrong way to relate to this is to think you can achieve blessing/increase via improvements and corrections.


Then - sorry for so much detail, but I think it would be bad just to tell you what I think it all means without explaining; how would you know if it makes any sense to you? We end up with all this confusing detail, but too much is safer than not enough, I think. (Note: Hilary is much better at this business of not drowning people in stuff.)

So - then I thought about the combinations of your cast hexagrams and their shadows. They happen to each be sets of paired hexagrams - we end up with "shadow pairs" - and I think that's an important part.

41-42 - this pair makes a cycle of Decrease and Increase. You make a willing sacrifice, or willingly reduce things, in order to make room for more. A key notion is willingly.

23-24 - 23 also means having less, similar to 41. But in 23 it's stripped from you, painfully and against your will - see the difference? But that's how this paired cycle works. Recently I ran across something Hilary said, don't have a link, sorry, something like in 23-24 there has to be complete and utter stripping before renewal can take place. It won't feel like an offering, like it might in 41. (41 isn't completely delightful - it's still a sacrifice - but it's not like 23.)

So anyway - you cast 24 to 23. So I think Yi's message here is that where you are is renewal through complete stripping - which is not at all like increase through manageable reduction.


There are also (heaven help us, but to me they seem helpful) hexagrams called Ideals, another Karcher invention. I won't even try to explain the convoluted method of finding them, and keep in mind I have even less experience with these than with the Shadows.

Karcher says they're the companions to the Shadows - the most effective way to shift your thinking, so that the more positive side of the Shadow can manifest.

The Ideal of your primary hexagram 24 is 37, People in the Home ----- and look what you've gone and done, gotten advice about trees that should be at home in your environment (maybe we can allow the Ideal a tentative smile).

Karcher's entire formula could go like this:

Your question was

I asked Yi: "how will the 3 acacias, esp their canope, evolve in the next 6 months?" (bringing us to october).

Reading was 24.1.6 to 23.

Shadow - the wrong way to think about this (shadows) is the height-reduction plan, 41 and 42. If you try to achieve renewal in a 41-ish way, it won't work.

But if you can shift your thinking to 37 (24's Ideal) - what will be at home on your land - renewal of a sort might happen spontaneously.

(Edited to add - I think you also have to shift how you see your question. I think you more-or-less had in mind, "Will the canopy snap off in the wind?," but you admirably avoided a yes/no question.

Yi, on the other hand, has perhaps explained how the acacias will actually evolve - maybe they won't be there anymore, 6 months from now.

It's something I've noticed - we ask questions before we know how Yi will answer (of course), but then we have to be very careful not to lock ourselves into pre-existing assumptions too much. Yi did actually give you a direct answer - it's just (in my opinion), it had a different idea of "evolve.")

Does any of this make any sense...? I can't guarantee being able to explain it any better.


There's another Ideal, 23's. 23's Ideal is 32, Lasting. 32 is about habits, planets in orbit, things like that that endure. I think it has to do with this that you said:

The tree people said that changing species would be good. Ash trees are ill all over the country and are being replaced.

So you don't want 32. How on earth is it an Ideal, then? Well - I think - the tricky part here is to keep in mind it's the Ideal of your relating hexagram. Relating hexagrams usually are not advice: they reflect how you're relating to the situation, or the background of the situation. So you often recognize your own feelings or location in it. In this one, you'd been thinking about it exactly 32-ish-ly - sticking with a grove of acacias, either the existing ones after pruning, or new baby ones. That doesn't seem to be the way to go.



Having said all of that - a very loose end is your first reading about trees' longevity, 22.4 to 30.

I can see 30 as what you've done - getting information, shedding light on the situation, becoming aware of what's possible.

But I have no idea how to revise what I originally thought about 22.4, the "allies, not robbers" part. I'm pretty sure I got it wrong, because all this about 24 to 23 makes so much sense and most of all, agrees with what the experts have told you in real life.

I do know I overlooked 22 itself - one shouldn't interpret a line without placing it in its hexagram. 22's Oracle specifically says, "Small yield from having a direction to go."

The direction to go might have been the mere idea of longevity, and 22 says not much yield from that.

Still, though, line 4 seems impossible to reconcile with the rest of this. Don't know what to do with it at all.

 

[flashlight]

Liselle, how can I thank you for all this? You've put in so much work, thinking, care into my readings, I am in awe and touched.
I have read your post twice and need to read it again (and probably again). There is an incredible amount of insight in it (right now, I am confused as all get out -- your explanations are crystal clear, I am just confused as to how to apply it to the decision(s) I have to make, thus the need to read again and digest).
Tranquil rain is falling, no wind (yay!), I can almost hear the garden slurp it all up.
Coffee, shower, walk dog, return and reread. More later.
Hug
Flashlight

 

[flashlight]

OK I'm back... I like the Shadow approach, thank you for introducing me to it. While it makes sense to me, doesn't mean I quite grasp what the Yi is trying to tell me about what to do....(Yes, I'd love to be taken by the hand and told, DO THIS, NOT THAT, because it is certain that X -- pipe dream,huh? )

So 24's Shadow is 41, Decrease. Specifically affordable, manageable decrease:

'Decreasing: there is truth and confidence.
From the source, good fortune.
Not a mistake, there can be constancy.
Fruitful to have a direction to go.
How to use this?
Two simple vessels may be used for the offering.'

(The underlined part is what means manageable and affordable. Two simple vessels, not everything you have.)

(Also - notice how you've been calling the tree-trimming process "reduction." That fits 41 very well, I think.)

That's what the tree people call it. It's like someone with long hair going for a short cut. Trimming is reshaping an existing hair cut

So far what we have is, "Reduction is the wrong way to think about this."

Is it the term (reduce) that is the wrong way to think about it, or is bringing down the trees to half their height the wrong approach?

Relating hexagram 23, Stripping. Its shadow is 42, Increase, which in practice often seems to mean blessing via making improvements. (See 42's Image text:

'Wind and thunder: Increasing.
A noble one sees improvement, and so she changes.
When there is excess, she corrects it.')

Piece no. 2: the wrong way to relate to this is to think you can achieve blessing/increase via improvements and corrections.

So... Conservation measures (to not call it reducing!) aiming to help the acacias rejuvenate are unlikely to work?

So - then I thought about the combinations of your cast hexagrams and their shadows. They happen to each be sets of paired hexagrams - we end up with "shadow pairs" - and I think that's an important part.

41-42 - this pair makes a cycle of Decrease and Increase. You make a willing sacrifice, or willingly reduce things, in order to make room for more. A key notion is willingly.

Whether it be reducing the acacias or cutting them down, it is a sacrifice. I am happiest when trees get to live their life without human interference, but when they are near homes and property, they lose some of their freedom. But it would be a willing sacrifice, because the action would not be gratuitous.

23-24 - 23 also means having less, similar to 41. But in 23 it's stripped from you, painfully and against your will - see the difference? But that's how this paired cycle works. Recently I ran across something Hilary said, don't have a link, sorry, something like in 23-24 there has to be complete and utter stripping before renewal can take place. It won't feel like an offering, like it might in 41. (41 isn't completely delightful - it's still a sacrifice - but it's not like 23.)

So anyway - you cast 24 to 23. So I think Yi's message here is that where you are is renewal through complete stripping - which is not at all like increase through manageable reduction.

Am I jumping to a conclusion in understanding this to mean Yi is agreeing with the tree people's approach to take ALL the trees down and replant baby trees? That would seem to be what the Ideal hexagrams point to as well.

Or am I totally misunderstanding all this? (headache coming!!!)

 

[Liselle]

Yes, I'd love to be taken by the hand and told, DO THIS, NOT THAT, because it is certain that X -- pipe dream,huh?

Well... yes, I also would love to be told what to do and why, when I don't know. And (my opinion only) - I personally would like to think Yi can help more-or-less like that - in real ways with real decisions. Because if not, then, kind of, my opinion, where are we with it? Most of the time I cast readings for real reasons.

This whole subject is a little controversial. I fully agree there are caveats. It can't and shouldn't be Yi making our decisions for us, for all kinds of reasons:

On the lecture-y side (sorry), we can't and shouldn't expect that of anyone or anything, not as we grow up, anyway. If someone tried, we wouldn't even like it a lot of the time - no one likes to be bossed around. It's unfair to say, "Boss me around when I want you to, but go away the rest of the time." Getting advice to inform decisions is a different thing - absolutely everyone needs that, because none of us magically knows everything.

On the practical side, there's the complication that talking with Yi is much less straightforward than talking with people or reading books/websites. We're trying to glean advice from vague little verses of poetry, after all. It's always interpretive and subject to error and uncertainty, by definition.

I think my favorite piece of advice about this came indirectly from LiSe, and I have in my head that Rosada was also involved. (Am trying to attribute this properly when I can't find notes, or never made notes, and it's just impossible...)

LiSe was talking about hexagram 19. She said,

hex.19 is about nearing but not actually touching

She wasn't even talking about the divination process, but I extrapolated it to that: Before doing a reading, get as close as you can on your own, and then ask Yi. This is not a new concept - it's just that what LiSe said happened to click with me.

It's a good idea morally, if we want to put it that way, and it also helps a lot practically. I'm a lot more confident about all the shadow stuff because, as best I can tell, it agrees with what you found out from the tree experts. Hooray! The more we know, the better we can recognize and understand things in readings.

Which is exactly what you did, all through this. You know things about trees, and you kept talking to the tree people.

Is it the term (reduce) that is the wrong way to think about it, or is bringing down the trees to half their height the wrong approach?

The term "reduce" is perfectly fine - I think the advice is that bringing the trees down to half their height is the wrong approach, yes.

So... Conservation measures (to not call it reducing!) aiming to help the acacias rejuvenate are unlikely to work?

I think so, yes. It's unlikely to work.

Your cast reading was 24 to 23, the Shadows are 41 and 42. So Yi's advice was "Renewal through Stripping Away" - and be careful not to confuse that with "Decrease in order to Increase" (the shadows). Stripping Away (23) is more drastic than 41. You have to strip everything away. You can't just reduce the acacias and expect that they'll thrive.

That fits excellently with what the tree people say - changing species would be good, planting something that's more likely to do well in your soil and environment. They seem to be saying that acacias just aren't well suited. It's not just yours on your property, they said it's true all over your area.

Whether it be reducing the acacias or cutting them down, it is a sacrifice. I am happiest when trees get to live their life without human interference, but when they are near homes and property, they lose some of their freedom.

I see your point, but it's not your fault. It seems the environment in your whole area is just not good for them. You can't change that. I suppose if they were far removed from your property, their tops could snap off naturally and they could die a natural death instead of being cut down, but they're fundamentally ill and dying.

But it would be a willing sacrifice, because the action would not be gratuitous.

I think you're getting at the most tricky part of Karcher's idea. The Shadow is the wrong way to think about the situation, but once you shift your thinking per the Ideal, a positive side of the Shadow can emerge. So you always have to try to find two different sides of the Shadow.

In your readings:
- You cast Renewal zhi Stripping (24 to 23).
- You started off thinking that reducing their height would help them rejeuvenate. But the Shadows say okay, yes, it seems obvious to think that way, but it's actually, specifically wrong. Reducing the acacias won't work. The tree people seem to agree - acacias are dying all over the place where you live, sad as that is.
- But see what you're starting to do? With the help of Yi and the tree people, you're starting to transform painful Stripping (23) into willing Sacrifice (41).

So the two sides of 41 in this case seem to me to be: (a) the idea of reducing their height, which won't work, (b) willingly sacrificing them in order to plant something that will grow better and not be ill.

Am I jumping to a conclusion in understanding this to mean Yi is agreeing with the tree people's approach to take ALL the trees down and replant baby trees? That would seem to be what the Ideal hexagrams point to as well.

I think you're jumping to the correct conclusion. Take down the acacias, plant the walnuts (/apples, /whatever they suggest will grow well, a.k.a. be more "at home" in your environment per the Ideal 37).

Or am I totally misunderstanding all this? (headache coming!!!)

I don't think you're misunderstanding.

But I would not be as confident about the readings if it weren't for the tree people agreeing. It's really, really nice when Yi and real life support each other. There's a lot more trust: you can trust the readings because your other sources agree; you can trust the other sources because Yi agrees.

 

[Liselle]

There are probably other things that play into this too, like - unfortunately - money. If you had all the money in the world, you could probably do both. Reduce their height now, which might help them out for a while, until whatever's infecting them catches up with them for good, and then cut them down and plant different trees.

But that would require even more expensive visits from tree people, and most of us can't afford that. You're doing well to afford any of it. And you can't actually cure them, no matter what.

 

[flashlight]

I'm responding as I read you, so please forgive if this comes across as telegraph style!!

I so get how you were affected with LiSe's 19! I don't come talk to Yi until a) I've done lots of thinking/feeling on my own and b) have doubts about outcomes or can argue both sides equally well. I have lots of readings here where I actually went against Yi's advice (as interpreted by many of you helpful kind people). In all cases, my gut trumps (gawd I now hate that word!).

That fits excellently with what the tree people say - changing species would be good, planting something that's more likely to do well in your soil and environment. They seem to be saying that acacias just aren't well suited. It's not just yours on your property, they said it's true all over your area.

It's the ashes that are sick all over the place, not the acacias. There's no debate about 2 of the ash, the last one I was thinking of leaving for the next few years (it's in a convenient spot).

But I would not be as confident about the readings if it weren't for the tree people agreeing. It's really, really nice when Yi and real life support each other. There's a lot more trust: you can trust the readings because your other sources agree; you can trust the other sources because Yi agrees.

The tree people (the one who'd do the cutting down) are pro taking them all out in one clip because there is a bit of savings in it for me rather than doing (or having to do it) it in 2 or 3 phases AND because it would make their life easier - to not have to worry about taking down a big tree with baby trees planted in the vicinity. Before suggesting this "radical solution", and while I believed it was the acacias that were soon dead ones, he suggested reducing the acacias so they would rejuvenate. My lumberjack's view is "trust trees". My gardener thought the ash were OK and the acacias dead (but as he said, he's not seen the big cavities at the base of the two ash). I've been getting lots of different signal inputs.

I was right (and very lucky) about which ash was going to fall AND in which direction it was likely to plop. It fell early on a saturday morning end February (what a noise!) with a big wind gust and did the very limited damage I had expected. Its roots, which can't go deep here anyway, had rotted from excess rain last year, nothing was holding it up. So I do have to go sit with them and have a talk. I believe they will give me useful indications. Call me nuts, but I fully relate to Suzanne Simard! There is also a good tree expert forum I'll post a question on.

You're doing well to afford any of it.

Uh, who said I could? This is "go talk to your friendly banker" time. My negotiation leverage is they have my homeowners insurance. Easier to grant me a loan than to engage in battle over a damage claim

Liselle, thank you. No pun intended, but I do see the forest a bit better for the trees LOL! It's just not an easy decision. The little forest, which is my favorite part of the property and the only one that has shade, has already lost many trees since I've been here (2 ash, 2 lilacs, 1 pine, 1 huge fig, etc..), getting rid of the rest in one fell swoop is a tough thing to swallow!

 

[Liselle]

It's the ashes that are sick all over the place, not the acacias. There's no debate about 2 of the ash, the last one I was thinking of leaving for the next few years (it's in a convenient spot).

Oh I should have known I'd mess something up. Yes, I see that's exactly what you said:

Ash trees are ill all over the country and are being replaced.

Except the 24 to 23 reading - the one with the Stripping - was about the acacias

I asked Yi: "how will the 3 acacias, esp their canope, evolve in the next 6 months?" (bringing us to october).
24.1.6 to 23 (I hate 23).

I don't know, I'm really confused right now. It's possible everything I've said about the 24.1.6 to 23 reading is wrong, or maybe it was correct in the first place to notice that 23 is your relating hexagram and not your advice.

I got off onto shadows because we'd gotten stuck:

"24 to 23 - those are in sequence, and usually mean cutting back / off / stripping in order to renew."

True, but that can also mean felling the existing trees to plan a new little forest with baby trees of other species that might be less affected by the illness that's killing the ash trees...

...as you're coherently pointing out here, there are the chronic problems of what angle to see it from and what is it actually saying.

What about cutting down the ashes, removing the tops of the acacias in the fall, and doing nothing else, unless and until the acacias die? You'd be left with only your acacias. That would fix the immediate problems (dying ashes, dead acacia tops), and eliminate the difficulty of cutting down tall trees with baby trees around.



But what started all this is you were worried about getting through to the fall. That's where 24.1.6 to 23 came from.

I asked Yi: "how will the 3 acacias, esp their canope, evolve in the next 6 months?" (bringing us to october).
24.1.6 to 23 (I hate 23).

Line 1​

'Not far away, returning – no regrets here.
From the source, good fortune.'

Line 6​

'Confused return, pitfall. There is calamity and blunder.
Using this to mobilize the armies: in the end there is great defeat.
For your state's leader, disaster.
For ten years, incapable of marching out.'

I do not for the life of me see how to make sense of that from the angle of keeping the acacias. Line 1 says something isn't far away, and there is good fortune from the source. What is it that isn't far away? Does it mean 6 months isn't (too) far away, that they'll be fine till then?

But then there's line 6. What is the delusion that causes the disaster?

Another member here who's really good at this has formed the idea through experience that when lines 1 and 6 both change, it sort of gives emphasis to the relating hexagram - she describes it as looking like a hoop that the relating hexagram jumps through.

Okay, so 24.1.6 gives 23 a hoop to jump through - then we're back to 23 again, which means Stripping etc. etc. etc. And the question was about the acacias. I'm completely lost.