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Values and beliefs in the Yi Jing

heylise

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Of course not, on the contrary. You say things in a beautiful and very enlightening way. I see more now than when I did it myself.

LiSe
 
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candid

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cool, thanks
 
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cheiron

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Hi Candid

Jung - Christian? ? Well yes you might be right ? and no you might be wrong.

Shortly before he died he allowed a Scotsman to make a biographical film? Really unusual for this man who had become very private... a man who had had a very long rough ride from the great institutions including ?Psychiatry?.

The film was called Hearts in its early edit form? I had the good fortune to see it as I was a student of the woman who?s brother made it? I don?t know if it was ever released?

That very question was put to him in the film (which was deep and sensitive and left one almost in tears) His answer was to gently laugh? and say Ahh, God as if it was a new word to him ? but such a sparkle in his eye! He was a deeply spiritual man? I suspect he was also a Christian?

Who knows? he never quite answered it.

Grin

--Kevin
 
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candid

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Hi Kev,

That?s interesting. Too bad the film isn?t made available.

All I have to go on is what I?ve read of his work, and all of this has been related to the symbolic values contained in Christian imageries. Two examples which come to mind are ?Man and his Symbols? and ?Memories, Dreams and Reflections?. Jung is quoted as saying, ?I don?t think there?s God. I know there?s a God.? But this isn?t contemporary Christianity as we know it.

When working with a Christian, he never tried to influence the patient away from their core values and beliefs. But he did help them to search for the deeper values within their faith system, specifically their personal symbolic references.

Jung?s office had several Christian motifs expressed in art, such as stained glass. The artistic imagery represented what he called ?myth?, and again, it?s value was within the sub or unconscious symbolism as it relates to the human psyche.

Fundamental Christian doctrine is not interpretable in that it?s foundation relies wholly upon the personal acceptance of the sinful human condition, redeemable only through the sacrifice of the person of Jesus Christ. It is faith in the dogma alone that redeems the soul of a man. There is nothing a man can do to save himself from eternal damnation but believe upon the atoning blood of the Savior, unquestioningly. This is not a symbolic reference, it is to be believed entirely literally.

Does this really sound like something Jung would believe?
 

RindaR

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Candid,

you write:
______________
Fundamental Christian doctrine is not interpretable in that it?s foundation relies wholly upon the personal acceptance of the sinful human condition, redeemable only through the sacrifice of the person of Jesus Christ. It is faith in the dogma alone that redeems the soul of a man. There is nothing a man can do to save himself from eternal damnation but believe upon the atoning blood of the Savior, unquestioningly. This is not a symbolic reference, it is to be believed entirely literally.
__________________

It has been my experience that there are as many flavours of Christians as there are people. Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Quaker, Fundamentalist, the list can seem unending. There are a variety of permutations within "the church" based on continua of theological liberality/conservatism, social liberalism/conservatism, concrete vs symbolic thinking, liturgical liberality/conservatism... There are snake-belly low churches, nose-bleed high churches, broad churches.... Some people believe every word of the King James Bible literally and that Jesus spoke English and wrote in red ink, and some believe that God inspires people who then tell us stories (or recount histories) in order to illustrate deeper truths. There is salvation by grace, salvation by faith, salvation by works. God is seen as a wooly-haired old man, or as Sophia, or as something beyond imagination that we can touch or feel or become aware of in part, through that of God within us.

I think perhaps if Brother Lawrence and LaoTze would meet, they would find that they had a great deal of essential stuff in common...

I wonder if the paradigm of the resurrection (whether or not one believes in it's literal truth) might correspond to Yi's theme of transformation and cycles.

Rinda
 
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candid

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Rinda, yes, I'm certain there are many correlations between all religious beliefs on a symbolic level.
 

lindsay

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I think there is a definite and definable value system embedded in the Yi that colors its use even after three thousand years.

About fifty years ago the American anthropologist Ruth Benedict wrote a famous book called ?The Chrysanthemum and the Sword? (1946), in which she argued that all cultures can be classified by their emphasis on using either shame or guilt to regulate the social behavior of their members. Asian cultures, like China or Japan, are considered ?shame? cultures, while modern American and European cultures are considered ?guilt? cultures.

Shame-based cultures see the social consequences of ?getting caught? as more important than the individual feelings or experiences of the agent. Guilt-based cultures emphasize the impact of wrongdoing on the individual rather than its social consequences.

No culture relies exclusively on internalized feelings of shame or guilt to control its members, and anthropologists today reject the universal validity of Ruth Benedict?s method of classification. Nevertheless, it is still widely held that traditional Asian societies were and are shame-based cultures.

According to Wikipedia, ?shame (or embarrassment ) is a social condition and a form of social control consisting of an emotional state and a set of behaviors, caused by the consciousness or awareness of having acted inappropriately.?

Now I would argue that the Yi contains overwhelming evidence of a shame-based ethic. Looking at no more than the first eight hexagrams, I find phrases like ?no blame,? ?no regret,? ?humiliation,? ?cause for regret,? ?there may be gossip?, ?don?t take credit for success,? ?awarded a leather belt, but stripped of it three times,? ?do not employ inferior people,? ?joining with the wrong people,? and so on. Later we find people in stocks, humiliated by mutilation (humiliation is the purpose of mutilating ears and noses and feet). Food is spilled on the duke. The concubine and wife struggle for position and dignity. The young fox gets his tail wet.

In every case, the emphasis is on how embarrassed or ashamed people will feel when they are perceived as having done the wrong thing. The Yi concerns itself almost exclusively with how we fare in the eyes of others on account of our behavior, whether good or bad. The engine of ethics and morals is shame or respect among one?s fellows.

What you do not find in the Yi is any mention of how people feel or think about themselves. You will not find any mention that the criminal should feel guilty about his crimes. There is no appeal to individual remorse or contrition. The center of consciousness is not the individual as a nuclear self, but the individual-within-the-group.

Historians have observed that ancient peoples appear to have had little or no sense of self-consciousness in the modern sense. In China, the first literary evidence of self-conscious preoccupation with personal and private feelings is Qu Yuan?s (d. 315 B.C.) poem ?Li Sao.? The Zhou Yi was probably composed 500-700 years earlier.

So what does this mean to us? It means the Yi insists archaically on considering the externals of human behavior and its impact on one?s standing in the community. There is no consideration, interest, even awareness of human motivation or the operation of the individual psyche. That is why all psychological consideration of the Yi must rely entirely on positing the existence of symbols, things that supposedly mean something different from what they are. To speak of the psychological meaning of the Yi is anachronistic and false to the archaic mind.

So everything of importance in the Yi is on the outside, externally related to the ten thousand things. Success is the highest goal of life; failure its most shameful misery. Self-cultivation means becoming externally better and more successful in one?s dealing with people in society. This, I believe, is a very good thing, because it is exactly how most of us still view our daily lives, at least in our healthier moments. We seek satisfaction and success in the context of others. We dread looking ridiculous (losing face, being ashamed) and we love feeling proud of ourselves and respected.

I think the Yi speaks directly to our most ancient and least confused natures, our peculiar virtue as human beings. At stake is our standing in the world around us. The Yi tells us the way to succeed in the world.

Lindsay
 

jte

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I think this topic is incredibly tricky - I think the *text* does have value systems embedded in it - in fact multiple value systems, among them:

- the Inventors' (Fu Hsi and unknown ancient Chinese diviners)
- King Wen and Wu and Wu's advisors (for the main texts)
- Commentators throughout the centuries (esp. Confucius and various confucian commentators)
- Translators' value system
- End user's as one interprets the text

These are all intermingled and I think can be very difficult to disentangle/distinguish, especially when working with a translation. One can read the message and see it in a wide variety of ways (and the translator did this before you ever got there).

Then there is the question of whether *the being that answers* (who/whatever that may be) has a value system. So, like LiSe, I asked: got 53.1.3 .

I must admit I couldn't get much out of this answer, unless I see it as "gradual growth leading to increase (in the way of the superior person)". I guess I can see that as a sort of value system.

And of course, there is the question of whether the Yi understands the querent's value system and adapts its answers based on how the questioner thinks... *if* it does, it could explain how the Yi could "work" despite all the filtering...

Still pondering...

:)

- Jeff

P.S. I really there's enough in this question for a small book if one were to try to explore it in detail. - J.
 

jte

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Lindsay -

"What you do not find in the Yi is any mention of how people feel or think about themselves. You will not find any mention that the criminal should feel guilty about his crimes."

I think this does depend on the translator - for example, Legge mentions "regret" and "repentance" in many of the negative lines - to me, those are emotional/psychological states.

Just food for thought. I'm not disagreeing with your idea about shame-based value system in the Yi, because I do see that, too. I'm just pointing out the role of translator filtration...

- Jeff
 

candida

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I think I understand a small portion of Lindsey's posting above and hate to say this but I am a wee bit jealous that she and others here are so intellectually aware of things that I can't even perceive of, because of my learning disability.
Candid spoke above "The Bible condemns the use of oracles and yet at the same time lots were cast in the old testament and the new testament"
I know this to be true as I've been taught the fundamentalist point of view which says the same thing. Its' hard to understand because if I understood Lindsay right, it is the external essence of our being, our conduct etc. that I Ching is trying to get our attention with.
So....1. By using I Ching are we opening up a Pandoras' box sort of thing where we don't need to be lurking as it might be too much for our psyche to bear because of the knowledge we've gained? 2.God says in the Bible that "I am a jealous God and that thou shalt have no other Gods before me" If we give I Ching too much credence couldn't that be a God?
I bring these Q's up because how can a 3000 yr. old book made up of mathematical equational throws
that initially haven't changed (the basic meaning of the hexagrams)over those 3000 yrs. be anything really bad? Unless relying on Ching for every answer in our lives means that we aren't seeking God for wisdom? If I Ching is our inner thoughts revealed(consciousness)to ourselves, then how can that be so bad in fundamental theological circles?
Unless going back to the Garden of Eden thought that after Adam and Eve partook of the apple, all knowledge was opened up to them and God expressly said he didn't want that; he just didn't want them to have all knowledge for whatever reason. I Ching gives us knowledge and perhaps thats why the Bible condems oracles? Either way, this is a wonderful debateing subject. Tatiana
 

bradford_h

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Hi Lindsay-
Good to hear from you.
That there's a meal for thought. Needs more digesting so I'm not taking a real stand here.

I'm of course very wary of modern scholarships' arrogance towards "primitive" cultures, and sub-cutures like those who penned the Yi. Not self'conscious indeed. Knuckle dragging small-brained Australopithecines! These were modern humans with brains as sharp as ours.

And, I'll stay fairly skeptical about procrustean oversimplification. I see equal doses of discussion on both guilt and shame in the Yi, but then these are both very much present in the typical human behaviors that the Yi likes to describe.

Anyway, to contribute something to the stew pot for now, these are the three words used most often in the Yi to describe these states, and a broader range of their meanings. Jte's comment about translator's slant merits some attention.

jiu4 1192 1068a 30+5 01.3 (a, the) blame, reproach, guilt, fault (found), error, mistake, wrong, failure, harm (done), defect, flaw, misfortune, wickedness, calamity, guilt; (to) blame, find fault, censure, reproach, do harm (s, ed, ing); (to be) mistaken, blameworthy, bad, wrong, responsible, culpable, faulty, erroneous, unworthy, guilty, harmful, mistaken, inauspicious

hui3 2336 947s 61+7 01.6 (a. the) regret(s), repentance, remorse, contrition; (to) regret, repent (s, ed, ing); (to be) regrettable; remorseful, contrite, repentant; thoughtless; [errors of thoughtlessness]

lin4 4040 475t 30+4 03.3 (a, an, the) embarrassment, disgrace, misery, poverty, humiliation, meanness, baseness, shame, regret, chagrin, inadequacy, wretchedness, deficiency; avarice, stinginess, greed; (to be) embarrassing, disgraceful, poor, humiliating, mean, shameful, regrettable, inadequate, miserly, stingy; miserable, wretched, ashamed, embarrassed, abashed; (too) little, spare, sparing, sparse

b
 
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cheiron

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Hi Candid

You do have a strong point there.

I cannot see him believing that.

happy.gif


--K
 
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candid

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Lindsay, wonderful to hear from you again, and you make some interesting points (as always).

Your examples are literally based. I think this leaves out the metaphoric approach of ?eastern? thought in general. Trigrams themselves are external objects, yet it is their inner value that is applicable. Shame appears as an external concern, yet it is inner humiliation which is the consequence. Two examples of the east/west sides of the same coin. Western materialism and eastern psychology have slowly shifted places over time, but the core human value is still relatively based, and while the Yi speaks to both equally well, neither is the expressed core value of the Yi.

What I do see as an expressed value of the Yi is, exchange of transmition/reception back and forth like an electrical current. Yi is neither here nor there, and it is always both at once, so long as there is one being to exchange with. It?s message can be applied internally or externally equally well, depending on who it is exchanging with, or rather, who is exchanging with the it. The process begins with a subjective question, from which an objective answer can be formulated. This is the only definable value system embedded in the Yi I can find.

Candida,
As Rinda pointed out, not all Christian thought is based on the fundamental view points I?ve mentioned in my brief summery. Within the faith system of Christianity there is plenty of room and opportunity to expand upon fundamental beliefs to include deeper symbolic value. In fact, I personally believe this is where Jesus was coming from, and why his followers asked him, why do you always speak in riddles, stories, metaphor? He was, in my opinion, as much a Taoist as he was a Jew. He certainly wasn?t a Christian. As we both know, that term evolved in Antioch long after his death.

C
 

RindaR

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Tatiana, you ask:

______________________________

If I Ching is our inner thoughts revealed(consciousness)to ourselves, then how can that be so bad in fundamental theological circles?
______________________________

Ah... This brings up another question - what is the nature of consciousness? How are we (some might even ask "are we") "connected" to God? Is that knowable? Is that knowing?

happy.gif


If God is thought to be exclusively outside of oneself, and/or outside of this world, then perhaps one might see consultation with Yi as competition to one's allegience (sp? Hilary - how much trouble would it be to connect this to a spell checker? pthpth...) to God. On the other hand if one sees God as immanent (in oneself and in the world), perhaps Yi might be considered one way to make an inner connection. If one thought this, then Yi would not be another God, and might be thought of as another expression of God's self.

Rinda
 
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candid

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Brad, (or anyone), can you shed light on "the mean"? I'm seeing the mean as a possible core value of Yi, but not sure if I'm applying it accurately. I see it related to walking in the middle, as a yellow garment is expressed in Yi. This was touched on by Kevin earlier in this thread.
 

Sparhawk

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Hi Candid,

I interpret "mean" as something akin to "averaging". Within the context of the Yi this averaging would be something like conceptualizing situations and taking a course of action whereby a correct balance of forces is maintained. If this is not achieved to a certain degree, at some point in the future, those forces will balance themselves naturally with perhaps unwanted consequences for the subject. Something like snapping back in place. On the other hand, if a course where a balance is maintained is taken, the subject will be able to navigate situations appropriately, or at least take a path with the least risk of negative, but mangeable, consequences.

As you may know, I am a Fantasy genre fan. A few years ago I read a series of books by L.E. Modesitt called the "Saga of Recluce". Some five or six books published at that time starting with The Magic of Recluce. (BTW, Mr. Modesitt is still publishing books in that series and I need to catch up...). For those interested, that series is an enormous essay on "keeping a balance" between negative and positive forces, good and evil, and the consequences of not doing so, in a very readable format.

Did I make any sense?
happy.gif


Luis
 

bradford_h

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Hi Candid
There was a thread not long ago on Zhong Dao (the middle way). It was here that Arien pointed out that all of its occurrences were in line two.
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/48/1760.html?
A "community" search for the phrase will turn up other threads too.
I think its both important as a value and also easily misunderstood. I see the middle way not as a neutral or compromise position, but rather, as an "optimal positioning," to the place of balance that is nearest to all of the options.
b
 

Sparhawk

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<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

I see the middle way not as a neutral or compromise position, but rather, as an "optimal positioning," to the place of balance that is nearest to all of the options.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! That's what I tried to say. (I hope my words make more sense now) You neo-pagan, you...
happy.gif


Luis
 

heylise

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Great post Lindsay, it made many things clear to me.

I understand now why I feel so comfortable with the Yi.

When someone tries to explain a philosophical concept to me, I usually get bored halfway. But a simple image can fascinate me. Because it gives all the meaning without the conditioning.
The hexagrams are like dream-images. Like dreaming of a prison, a car, a bird. All very simple and concrete, but able to draw your attention to an important issue you should tackle. I kept dreaming about a small car of my own in a time when I had to fight for being the one who 'steered' my life. The well in the Yi, the most concrete thing, is usually an image everyone can understand and apply to the situation. Every addition to an image makes it smaller, narrower. And more abstract, turning it into a mental one, means less applications.

The 'shame' aspect of things is a lot simpler than the 'guilt' aspect, and also more concrete. A cangue or entering a dark gully are explicit images, but I am rather allergic for 'ideas' about good and bad.

I still think the base value is beyond both. The cangue too is an image of the concept behind it. But every culture will use the images which belong in it. Like God has a different name in every religion, but is still the same concept. Can even consist of hordes of gods, spirits, holy animals and objects and so on. I myself also call him God, although I have no preference for which one. It is the simplest way to say in this culture whom (or rather what) you are talking about.

"The Yi tells us the way to succeed in the world". It is closely related (but much more directly said) to my idea of "that you will be able to live together with the rest of the/your world, have a value for it, and also be sustained by it. The way a balanced nature is a living-together of all kinds of creatures. All making life possible for all."


BTW, the occurences of zhong, central or mean or halfway:
Zhong in:
3.3
6.0
7.2
11.2 x
24.4 x
37.2
42.3 x
42.4 x
43.5 x
55.0
55.2
55.3
55.4
61.0

Dao in:
9.1
10.2
17.4
24.0

The ones with an x are the combination of zhong with xing: walk central, or go halfway.

Not especially a lot of line-2's, but a lot in 55

LiSe
 

bradford_h

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Hi LeSe-
The line 2 reference was limited to occurrences of "Zhong Dao," a Xiao Xiang interpretive term.
We never thought to look for Zhong & Xing together (going in the middle, walking in balance),
which maybe should have been part of that discussion. Good catch.
b
 
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candid

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Brad, Luis and Lise, thanks for illuminating the mean. Just soaking it in here awhile, holding my thoughts until more clear.
 

gene

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"The Yi shows us the way to success in the world?" Yes, but only when you are concerned with that aspect. The Yi is far beyond any concern about shame or guilt, which really aren't that different. It does reflect our different everyday emotions. But real success is not outward or financial. That may be the way society defines it, but only because society is caught in a trap of illusion. Real success is spiritual evolution, (which has little or nothing to do with going to church by the way) Spiritual evolution has to do with coming to know who we are. If we are still divided at death, between the conscious and subconscious, the two minds separate, and we will not carry forth our experiences into further incarnations, and therefore, much of the learning experience is lost. The I Ching tells us how to reconnect with ourselves. There is also a hint of this in the story of the changing water into wine at a wedding that Jesus attended. Some say he was the groom. The changing of water into wine is a symbol of accessing the sub and superconscious. The marriage ceremony is a symbol of the uniting of the conscious and subconscious minds, after which the person has what may be termed, eternal life. For at this point the soul does not leave its memories behind.

The book of changes is in many ways a symbol for understanding how a superior man behaves in a given situation, which accords with a given time. Just as a sine wave rises and falls, so do all things. If the superior man is at the top of that sine wave, his actions may be different than if he were at the bottom. This is not morality as we know it in the western world, it is a much more practical treatise on a morality based on the demands of the time. In prosperous times the superior man gives generously, at other times he falls back upon his inner worth. And this does not mean "relativity" as we understand it in the west. Hexagram 32 teaches us that. The moral code is always there. It is simply a matter of how to achieve the ideal moral code in a given context. To me these things are universal and have nothing to do with the culture we are in, except as to how that culture relates to the point on the sine wave. I do not see a philosophy or moral code in the I Ching so much as a standard. And even that changes, as in hexagram 17.1, but it changes only in the context of the time. The sine wave has highs and lows, but overall, it remains a sine wave.

If I have time I will continue this later.
Gene
 

lindsay

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Thanks for the welcome, friends, I respect your ideas very much. I?m sorry if I seem to be highjacking the thread on a slightly different course ? ignore me if you like ? but I really am interested in this question of values in the Yi, and I see it a little differently.

Candid is right on target about my POV ? I am reading the Yi very, very literally. I do not want to think about metaphors and symbols until I understand the direct discourse in the Yi. What is it saying in plain language? I am trying hard to see what is in front of my face. So, for example, when the Yi includes the phrase ?no blame? (wu jiu) again and again in its text, I wonder why? Obviously, judging from its frequency, the Yi is trying to make a point of some importance.

Blame? I do not know many people who blame themselves or accept blame easily when things go wrong. I myself am often ready to blame someone else or the circumstances or the weather ? anything but myself. Sometimes I just excuse myself by saying, ?The Devil made me do it!? I can feel guilty, but rarely do I admit I am fundamentally at fault, rarely do I accept blame for what I do.

Shirking blame seems so natural to me that I am inclined to see it as human nature. Why should I care if people blame me or not? What matters is I don?t blame myself, is it not? This, my friends, is an entirely Western viewpoint.

The truth about blame is that it is something we put on other people. Blame is the expression of disapproval that comes from assigning responsibility for improper behavior to another individual. Blame is a judgment we make about others. So when the Yi says, ?No blame,? it means, ?Other people will not blame you for doing this.?

Obviously, people in the world of the Yi cared a great deal about whether other people blamed them. They cared enough that the Yi makes a very big point out of situations that do not incur blame. It?s almost the most important thing, this threat of blame. So you read something like ?you broke your arm, you had your nose cut off, your house is in flames, and your dog is dead? ? BUT ? no problem! ? because there is no blame!

Imagine what life would be like if the worst thing that could happen is that we lose the approval of the people around us? What if the people we love and respect and depend on ?blamed? us? My belief is that we are in fact living in that very world, we are scared to death of alienating our friends, lovers, employers, leaders, anyone of value to us. This is one unconscious link between us and the world of the Yi, and a very, very old one it is.

I think a careful examination will show the Yi is more concerned with group or social relations than any others. Man is a pack animal. I leave it to you to decide whether in daily life you are more concerned with your relations with other people than any other issue. You may find that your values and those of the Yi are really rather close.

Lindsay
 

gene

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Often men march off to war because they are more afraid of rejection than they are of loss of life or limb. Rejection is the biggest fear of all.

One way of looking at blame, is the Yi is often saying. Nothing you did caused this situation to come about. It is not your fault. It is just fate or destiny or coincidence or a sign of the times whatever. It doesn't necessarily mean blame in the sense that the I Ching is chastising you for something. It more often and more likely means, this situation would have happened regardless of any actions you took. A General might feel guilty because he lost a battle and a city is destroyed. The Yi might be saying, you could not have stopped it.

Yes, the I Ching relates very much to the social mores and our place in society. Especially from the Confucian perspective. From the Taoist perspective, not so much. They were more concerned with inner development.

Gene
 

jte

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"I do not want to think about metaphors and symbols until I understand the direct discourse in the Yi. What is it saying in plain language? "

Doesn't the answer to that depend on what you asked? For example, 19.2 (joint approach/advancing in company) would mean very different things literally if you asked about, say, taking a class, participating in a volunteer event, or going out to meet with an old friend.

Maybe I misunderstood what your point was, but I see the generality of the text as part and parcel of its usefulness, since it's what lets you ask about a very wide variety of topics and still get an interpretable response (although that interpretation part can be tricky, as we all know).

"So when the Yi says, ?No blame,? it means, ?Other people will not blame you for doing this.? "

No doubt sometimes it does. Sometimes, though, I think it can mean *I* (the Yi) don't blame you... (even if other people DO blame you).

Just my two cents...

- Jeff
 

lindsay

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Jeff, you bring up many excellent points, but I?d like to respond to a couple of them. You noted earlier that the Yi is a composite document subject to many different interpretations (all translation is interpretation) and glosses, and therefore likely to contain many different value systems. True enough, yet what strikes me about the Yi is the durable integrity of its text. You may peel away as many layers from the onion as you like, but in the end the Yi remains an onion, not a turnip. Or, to use another metaphor, I sometimes think of the Yi as being like concrete, a mixture of substances stronger and more useful than any of its components. To be blunt, the whole is more than (and different from) the sum of its parts.

I also think it is not quite true to say the meaning of the text depends on the question. Certainly the interpretation of the text may vary, but not its essential meaning. What does ?no blame? mean? And more interesting, what does the phrase imply? Why does the Yi put so much emphasis on this whole notion of blame\regret\humiliation? Once we have the meaning in our thoughts, we can apply it to the specific situation through interpretation.

Finally, I do think ?no blame? may also mean ?you need not blame yourself,? but to say it can mean ?I don?t blame you? is to take a breathtaking leap into the abyss. Who exactly is the ?I? in ?I don?t blame you?? Are you suggesting the Yi contains an actual personality capable of passing judgment on your behavior? My, my. Let me go one step further. What if ?no blame? means ?we don?t blame you?? This is more consistent with what we know about Shang-Zhou divination, which seems often aimed at the ancestors to answer questions and solve problems.

Fun reading your stuff. Also hope to write more later to others.

Lindsay
 

heylise

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I don't think the things said are contradictory. The phrase 'no blame' can be confusing, so I will take one, which will not cause any misunderstanding: the well.
No doubt possible what a well is. No translator giving 'another' well. But the well includes all possible meanings, from all different times and cultures. Not one of these different interpretations has a problem with it. Even someone living where no wells are, can understand what it is.
The reason that it is understandable for all: it is a simple and concrete image. I did understand hex. 55 when I learned it was a garrison. Hex. 1 about drought and rain. Hex.11 a holy mountain. Hex. 22 herbs, and so on. All those simple and concrete images made the meanings much wider instead of narrowing them down. When the images are simple, every culture can use them. So the most valuable Yi I can find, is the one of the 'simple' beginning, and simple means closer to universal concepts.

The simple and concrete images seem farther from daoist ideas than the philosophical interpretations, but they are not. They make it possible for every individual to find his own meaning in them, and all the time they stay the same image.

LiSe
 

heylise

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Guilt is 'modern', the pain is inside. Shame is older, the pain is both inside and outside. When you do 'wrong' in the jungle, and the tiger gets you, the pain is only concrete, not in your soul, but still the pain as result from wrongdoing.

It all comes from, like Lindsay said, the ancestors. They have set the tradition for the community one lives in. For the mindset inside oneself (inherited and learned from parents and all those before). And their ancestors have learned all creatures how to survive in the jungle.
We have no trouble to translate 'stepping on the tiger's tail' into our modern lives. Not in spite of its primitiveness, but thanks to it.

Oh, and zhong dao is not in the original Yi, only in the (later) Wings.

LiSe
 

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