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...Was I Ching repetedly wrong?

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casstone

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I've been consulting I Ching for some years now and usually I've considered the hexagrams I cast, spot on.

BUT....

Last August I had my final hearing in a court case regarding my request to take my daughter who already lives with me and stays with me 90% of the time, for a brief summer vacation to my (and her other-) home country. She's 4 and a half years old now and speaks the country's language perfectly even though this summer would have been her first visit to the country.
I made the request to go very timely, months and months ahead and followed all the "right" procedures.

I.e. I first made the request to her fathers and when he denied, I filed a request to the court. I was quite confident about getting a Yes because my request was very reasonable, I've never violated the laws or the agreements between me and her father and legally I should be able to take my daughter for a vacation to her other country of origin without any problem.

Anyways, I asked the I Ching a several times about Whether the judge would allow us to go or not or What would be his decision regarding my request.
My first cast regarding that question was maybe in March while the last one was in August ...Now I didn't spam I Ching with questions regarding this case but I did ask him a few times during the whole court case procedure and basically the question was the same even though I formulated it differently each time.

But let me get to the point. Each time and I mean Each time, I got hexagram 8.
Hexagram 8 - Solidarity - looks like a yes to me in this case or at least very positive. The only warning in that hexagram would be to be on time, or not to arrive late because in that case, one would miss out. Well I think I definitely didn't arrive late. All the contrary actually!
Probably needless to say at this point - but I got a big NO from the judge. A completely immotivated no, without any reference to the laws - which is Very unusual for a judge..!

It looks like the solidarity was all with the father's point of view but since I was asking explicitly how it would go for Me and my cause and not the father I don't see how hexagram 8 could apply -- repeatedly.

What do you think? As for myself I've started to doubt the reliability of I Ching but on the other hand this might be a good occasion to gain a deeper insight on the book.
 

Tim K

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I think Yi is giving you an advice in higher form, to witness the separation that you have with the father and to try to be together again.

Richmond:
In this process of unification the parts(-Mom and Dad-) which are coming together are troubled, worried at losing their right to possess identity(-Daughter-) each in turn as they have been used to; however, by witnessing they are joined. Any that stay separate must be lost to this new unified whole.

You see? Is there any chance to find a peaceful solution with the father?
So you won't have to go to the court at all?

8 also tells you to ask a second time ' How can I obtain this union of parts?'. "What should I do to become united?".
 

Tohpol

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I'm sorry to hear of your problems. It sounds very challenging indeed.

Regarding your frustration with the Yi, I'd keep in mind that the I Ching is never wrong, but our interpretations certainly can be. The Yi operates from a much deeper level, a fact we often miss due to our need to get through our challenges and the understandable wish for positive outcomes. On that basis, when you wrote: "... on the other hand this might be a good occasion to gain a deeper insight on the book," I think you're going in the right direction.

Ashteroid may be onto something regarding H.8 in that context.

For me, this hexagram has often pointed to "holding together" at a more profound level that is sometimes difficult to see in what way it all ties up with the situation at hand. Often it can refer to psycho-spiritual processes that are seeking union in conjunction with other forces that we are not aware of. Or, to put another way, there are things we don't see in the situation which prohibit unity at this time but doesn't preclude the possibility later on. It seems to be very much a kind of lesson or "karmic" set of circumstances playing out, at least that's been my experience.

As you probably know, it's often a good idea to ask a follow up question with H.8 in order to guage exactly how this unity is to be achieved and in what way - clarification in other words. I frequently do that with unchanging hexagrams to gain a more focused reading.

I wish you well and hope you find resolution.
 
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Liselle

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Casstone,

I sympathize with you about the I Ching. You ask specific questions, and even if you understand, in principle, that Yi can tell you something other than what you specifically asked about, you still have no idea for any particular reading whether that's what it's doing, or if it really is answering the question you asked (and your interpretation would be very different, depending which of those is true).

And if you're getting unchanging hexagrams it's even more difficult, I think.

I have no idea whether Ashteroid is right or not (and heaven knows I have no good ideas of my own about this situation), but you did try working it out with the father first and you got nowhere. If Ashteroid thinks it means that you should remarry him or something (is that even what you're saying, Ashteroid? I don't want to put words in your mouth), it seems like a stretch to go from "how can I take a trip with my daughter" to "remarry her father."

In this context, another guess might be that everyone would be willing to let you and your daughter take this trip if you and her father took her together (platonically), so that hex 8 would mean "Union" or "Both." (I'm pretty sure I've had at least one reading where it meant "both.") But - everyone who is actually involved in this had ample opportunity to suggest that, and no one did, so I think this is also far-fetched.

Did you post any of the other readings here on the forum? If so, would you be willing to post those links here? You've only posted 50 times, so it wouldn't be impossible for us to find them, but you probably know exactly which threads they are. It would probably take the rest of us three times as long, lol.
 

bradford

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The Yi never says only one thing.
It's all about what you grab onto.
 

vikk

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Hello!

I apologize in advance that I cannot really contribute on the meaning of the hexagram you casted. I am way too "green" with IChing. I just wanted to share my opinion on "wrongness" or "rightness" of the oracle.

I agree with Bradford that it is all about what you grab onto. Lots of times we address the oracle to get an immediate answer to the situation hoping that it will lay a plan of action or foresee something for us.

Sometimes IChing is blunt and give us a straightforward answer. Sometimes it gives us an overview of the situation, its opinion and it is up to us to decide whether we want to disregard that advice.

In my personal experience, I was able to understand what it was saying after the situation I was wondering about is no longer relevant.

Thank you! Good luck and be well!
 

Liselle

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The Yi never says only one thing.
It's all about what you grab onto.

Brad, is there enough information that you could say a bit more about that for this particular case? Information is a little bit sparse...for example, it certainly sounds as if Casstone got 8 unchanging for each of several readings on this topic, but she never actually used the word "unchanging." So even that might be a little uncertain...?
 

bradford

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Brad, is there enough information that you could say a bit more about that for this particular case? Information is a little bit sparse...for example, it certainly sounds as if Casstone got 8 unchanging for each of several readings on this topic, but she never actually used the word "unchanging." So even that might be a little uncertain...?

I was speaking to the meta-question in the thread title of course.
As to the question, I think Ashteroid is correct: this isn't something you can force. The underlying conditions need to be more harmonious, so that things spontaneously flow. The water won't flow uphill. There has to be some was to get the situation more amicable and re-establish trust.
 

Liselle

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I was speaking to the meta-question in the thread title of course.

Oh, okay.

About the rest of it, I do see the point, and agree it would certainly be easier if there was more harmony between Casstone and her (presumably) ex-husband.

But then we're back to "Was the I Ching repeatedly wrong," and I think at some point you do have to assess that in light of the question asked.

Casstone started by trying to work it out with the father, and got nowhere. She was forced to either give up the idea of the trip, or go to court over it. She repeatedly asked the I Ching how the court proceedings would go for her, and (we think) got 8 unchanging every time. She asked more than once. Yi had ample opportunity to tell her it wasn't going to work.

I mean, if she's asking about a court proceeding involving her ex-husband, and instead of addressing that question, Yi says, "It would be better to re-establish trust and amiability with your ex-husband"...that strikes me as a banality. It sounds (to me) a little like, "How can I win this beauty contest?" "Well, first, get beautiful..."

Of course, it would help to know what the exact readings were.
 

Tim K

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lisa said:
but you did try working it out with the father first and you got nowhere. If Ashteroid thinks it means that you should remarry him or something, it seems like a stretch to go from "how can I take a trip with my daughter" to "remarry her father."

Hi Lisa, of course I'm not suggesting the whole remarriage thing. Just some reconnecting, a phone call, a photo of a daughter, skype session maybe. To make the father more comfortable with this trip.
I think there maybe be a possibility that the father is afraid of loosing his daughter completely, since she is already spending 90% of time away with Casstone, and now she wants to take her to another country.
What would you feel in his place receiving a formal request to sign away his daughter to another country, temporary (or not ..)?

casstone said:
I.e. I first made the request to her fathers and when he denied, I filed a request to the court.
I didn't see 'working out' here. Just a formal request? Really? So I assumed there was almost no emotional connection with the father.


About Yi answering the concrete question:
Yeah I find it frustrating too. I want it to answer directly :)
Will the judge grant me the right to ... - No, like 39|1.6|21.6|34.5.6|28|12

But as Bradford said, the readings have many meanings and only the person who asks the question sees the right one amongst the others. In tarot it's the same, some element of the card's image just grabs your attention.

I tried a yes/no marathon with Yi, watching american idol episodes on computer, the beginning of the season where they are just picking out their top 40 to go to LA. And the answers Yi gave were amazing. It wasn't just yes or no, no-no-no far from it. Yi gave background information, some context how's it's gonna happen and why. And sometimes I did get a hex (hex 2uc for example) which meant both yes and no.
One singer was allowed to go on to the next stage and the other wasn't.

Yi's perspective is fare more greater, and the knowledge available to it is unlimited so it just gives the best suitable answer or advice.
Reviewing the readings after the situation is resolved, more and more I find myself agreeing with it's answers. I imagine myself now, talking through Yi to myself in the past and giving all these answers.
And they really are the best advices I could come up with.

You are in a tunnel standing at the Y-shaped crossroad and asking me "Go left or right?"
I know that right one leads to some magical artifacts that grant special abilities and power which will destroy that person.
And the left one leads up to a beautiful country with a simple life, a soulmate and a family in the future.

What would I answer?
- "Depending on what you want"
- "I don't know your intentions"

Or for example I know that in 10 minutes both tunnels will be flooded and the only way to go now is back, and fast.
"You are not seeing the whole picture". 46
"Retreat!" Hex 28. 29, Hex 51 ..

It's a hard job to be Yi :)
 
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sooo

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Since my unity with others depends first on unity with myself, I always first consider 8 as keeping myself together. Anything less will leave a poor impression with the judge in such a litigation.
 

missann

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I agree with Sooo. I'm not an expert on this at all, but I had a similar issue with getting 8 in response to a work question, and since some interpretations refer to it as "Union", I took it literally, and contacted my Union. Well, it turned out badly, our union was so reduced by the state that they decided to no longer fight for our contract, and left me hanging. It resulted in the administration being angry at me and punishing me by changing my hours and work. Now when I get 8 I take it as "pull yourself together" because it is going to take all of your inner resources to deal with the issue.
 

Liselle

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I do hope Casstone comes back with the exact readings, because we might be on the wrong page in the hymnal here. It seems unlikely (not impossible, of course) that Casstone got exactly 8 unchanging for each of several similar questions. It could make a great difference if hex 8 was simply part of each reading - if there were moving lines, or if hex 8 was the relating hexagram. Still very striking, but completely different to interpret.

Hi Lisa, of course I'm not suggesting the whole remarriage thing.
Yes, sorry, the more I thought about it, especially after seeing what Brad had to say about establishing trust and some sort of amiable relationship, I realized you probably weren't suggesting something as outlandish as remarriage. Sorry for jumping the gun there :blush:.

Just some reconnecting, a phone call, a photo of a daughter, skype session maybe.
I guess we don't know that any of those things aren't happening. Casstone never said (in this thread, anyway) that there is no relationship at all. She said her daughter is with her 90% of the time, which does leave the other 10%. If that 10% is with the father, that's still a significant amount of time - 10% of a year is roughly a month. (Though I do realize "90%" may have been an approximation.)

I think there maybe be a possibility that the father is afraid of loosing his daughter completely.
That may be true.

What would you feel in his place receiving a formal request to sign away his daughter to another country, temporary (or not ..)?
I don't know, since I've never been in that situation. It would probably depend on any number of things about Casstone and her life. For one, if Casstone really was scheming evilly to abscond with her daughter to another country (!), Casstone would have to be able to set up an entirely new life there for herself, too (finding a job, place to live, etc.).

Also, we don't know (from this thread) how far away the other country is. Taking a child from, say, the U.S. to Hong Kong might be a completely different thing from moving her from France to Germany. Something like the latter may not affect the daughter's relationship with her father at all.

It seems maybe more likely (because I've heard that such things are fairly common) that this is a power struggle: one parent saw a chance to say "No" to something, and he took it, possibly for no better reason than just to say no and cause trouble for the other parent.

So I assumed there was almost no emotional connection with the father.
There is often lack of emotional connection between estranged parents. They're not together for a reason. Of course it's easier if the mother and father are able to get along well enough to work out these sorts of things between them. It just doesn't always happen that way. And this is what family courts are for, to mediate fairly between estranged parents.

That's why I said that an interpretation of these hex 8 readings that amounts to, "Just get along!" seems banal to me. It may be that we're just not seeing something about hex 8 that would make total sense (and, again, we're not sure what the exact readings even were).

About Yi answering the concrete question:
Yeah I find it frustrating too. I want it to answer directly :)
Will the judge grant me the right to ... - No, like 39|1.6|21.6|34.5.6|28|12

But as Bradford said, the readings have many meanings and only the person who asks the question sees the right one amongst the others.
That is very true. The best person to pick "the answer" from their readings should be the querent themselves, since they're closest to the situation, know the most about it, and simply because it's their answer. Yi is talking to them, not to the rest of us.

But being the querent can get in the way, if you have trouble being objective because you are so close to it. You can miss what is obvious to other people, if you start reading between the lines too much, second- (third-, fourth-) guessing, dragging your entire life into one interpretation, and so forth (I make all these mistakes :().

One thing I'm wondering about is the repetition. Casstone asked several questions about this, over a fairly long period of time, and got very similar answers each time. I understand Yi trying to make a point by repeating it. But I've also seen Yi realize that the querent isn't getting it, and then try another way to get the message across. (Just as we might do ourselves - repetition isn't always the best way to make ourselves understood.) (And again, we're not sure what the exact readings were.)

I imagine myself now, talking through Yi to myself in the past and giving all these answers.
And they really are the best advices I could come up with.

You are in a tunnel standing at the Y-shaped crossroad and asking me "Go left or right?"
I know that right one leads to some magical artifacts that grant special abilities and power which will destroy that person.
And the left one leads up to a beautiful country with a simple life, a soulmate and a family in the future.

What would I answer?
- "Depending on what you want"
- "I don't know your intentions"

Trying to imagine yourself in Yi's shoes...that's a very interesting, creative exercise, Ashteroid. I like it :). Seems like it could make the lines more alive, and deepen our understanding of them.

Or for example I know that in 10 minutes both tunnels will be flooded and the only way to go now is back, and fast.
"You are not seeing the whole picture". 46
"Retreat!" Hex 28. 29, Hex 51 ..

Well, in a situation like that, "Get out of there!" seems the only reasonable answer (unless Yi wants you dead or stranded :( ). "You are not seeing the whole picture" may be technically true, but a person might decide, okay, I'll sit here and think about it, weigh my options, consider my intentions - all those things Yi often encourages us to do. WRONG.
 
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Liselle

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Since my unity with others depends first on unity with myself, I always first consider 8 as keeping myself together. Anything less will leave a poor impression with the judge in such a litigation.

I agree with Sooo. I'm not an expert on this at all, but I had a similar issue with getting 8 in response to a work question, and since some interpretations refer to it as "Union", I took it literally, and contacted my Union. Well, it turned out badly, our union was so reduced by the state that they decided to no longer fight for our contract, and left me hanging. It resulted in the administration being angry at me and punishing me by changing my hours and work. Now when I get 8 I take it as "pull yourself together" because it is going to take all of your inner resources to deal with the issue.

Sooo, yes, I think that's a good point. Something like this could be what Yi may have been trying to say to Casstone (or some other aspect of hexagram 8 that we haven't considered yet). We don't know enough details to be able to tell, but maybe it will mean more to Casstone?

Missann, in your situation, I think I would have interpreted it exactly the same way you did. Getting hexagram 8 - Union - about a workplace situation where a union exists, reasonably sounds like "call your union." There is a bit of a caveat in the hex 8 Oracle - "For the latecomer, pitfall" - but it's not like Yi can't give a simple, one-word answer that mostly involves the name. How are we supposed to tell the difference?

Maybe if you knew your union was essentially powerless...but still, it seems not-so-great for Yi to even plant the union idea. Was your reading 8 unchanging? Were there moving lines? Your reading might be a really good example for hexagram 8, which is a confusing hexagram. (I mean "good" for I Ching study - certainly not good for you :(.)
 

Liselle

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The Yi doesn't "plant" any ideas. Only human beings do that. :D

Beg to differ. Yi answered a question about an issue in a workplace where a union exists, with a hexagram named "Union." The reasonableness of thinking it might very well mean "call your union" speaks for itself.

I do understand that "Union" is not the only possible translation for hex 8's name, and I understand that hex 8 can mean things other than "call your union," even in that situation. As I said, if Missann knew her union was powerless, then she probably should have been dubious enough about the union idea to at least ask Yi another question. But now we're getting deep into the weeds of what Missann knew or "should have" known, which is unfair all around.

And really, the only thing the I Ching can do is plant ideas in us - advise us, suggest options, ways to think about something, angles to consider. The I Ching is perfectly aware it's talking to human beings.
 

Tohpol

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Sure, I agree.

But your sentence: but still, it seems not-so-great for Yi to even plant the union idea
gives the impression that you were inferring that the Yi made a mistake in giving such an H.8 image. Which also links to the implication (and the title of this thread) that Yi is fallible like human beings which I don't think it is. It is in this sense that I was playfully disagreeing. No biggie.

I guess, how we tell the difference surely comes from asking for clarification?
 

Liselle

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Sure, I agree.

But your sentence: but still, it seems not-so-great for Yi to even plant the union idea
gives the impression that you were inferring that the Yi made a mistake in giving such an H.8 image. Which also links to the implication (and the title of this thread) that Yi is fallible like human beings which I don't think it is. It is in this sense that I was playfully disagreeing.

I guess I think Yi treads a very fine line sometimes. I think it's possible (without knowing any more about Missann's situation than the tiny bit she told us) for a reasonable person to find Yi's answer deceptive. Missann asked a question about her workplace, where Yi knew a union existed, and it gave her "Union" as an answer.

Now...if it was hex 8 unchanging (which we don't know - Missann, I'm turning your reading into a bit of a hypothetical, hope you don't mind :hug:) - there is a debate over whether unchanging hexagrams can mean "NOT" the hexagram. If they can, then it may be that Yi was giving her a very direct, helpful answer: do NOT call your union. (I'm not trying to take sides in that debate - I am endlessly confused by unchanging hexagrams, and I REALLY don't know the answer to the "not" thing.)

Or - depending on the structure of Missann's workplace - another possibility for 8uc might be that she had to work through her union, but also that her union would fail her. (There are unionized workplaces where you cannot just talk to management directly, by yourself.) So the "unchangingness" in such a reading might be that Missann was just stuck with her union, for better or worse (worse, in this case :().

I agree, Topal, that the lesson to learn might be that if you're not sure, ask more questions to clarify. (In a measured, thoughtful way, of course - we have our own fine line to tread with that, which I fail at quite often. If I don't understand something right away, it's hard for me not to panic and start rapid-firing questions, which hardly ever helps :eek:. )
 

Liselle

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Oh, and Topal, my apologies - I didn't pick up on the fact that you were being playful. I thought you were being deadly serious, cue crashing organ music and speak in a deep baritone...

(Clearly I must spend some quality time with this little fellow: :D...we'll just be down below, hanging out...)








:hugs: :D :D :D :hugs:
 

missann

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Gee, I didn't realize my example would take over this thread!

I had to go back through all the little pieces of paper I write my hexagrams on from last year when all that happened. The original question was "What do I do now knowing that my two supervisors conspired against me?" I got 36.2 > 11, "...needs aid, a strong horse. Good fortune". Then I asked "Who or what is strong horse" and I got 8 unchanging.

I'll try to sum up what happened; My supervisor (I'll call her Jane) and I were the only staff at our site. Jane had complained about a client that wanted to rent our facility for a big event on a Saturday, because Jane didn't feel the client was competent and the event would be a disaster. Jane normally was on site for events that took place on Saturdays because she was the supervisor. Jane and her supervisor (I'll call him Steve) had met about the event and both were unhappy about it. Two weeks before the event was to take place, I find a letter on my desk stating that my hours had been changed for the week of the event so that I was working Tuesday through Saturday, to cover the event. No one had said anything to me about working it. Prior to that, Steve and I had (I thought) a good relationship and staff is allowed to talk to supervisors without union present.

Now there had been a great deal made of people who held my position (part-time), not opening or closing or even being alone at a work site, because the union was trying to justify having full-time positions and differentiating between supervisors and workers. It was in the contract that part-timers could not act as supervisors. So, based on that, and the fact that neither one of them talked to me about it first, and tried to cheat me out of extra hours by altering my schedule, and the advice from Yi, I contacted the Union. I had utilized them on other occasions and had great results, so I did not know at that time that the union had given up fighting any issue except for firing. The president even told me (later) that their take on things was that if you did a job long enough it became your job, regardless if it were in your description; the direct opposite of what is in the contract.

So, I have to agree with Lisa, Yi did "plant" the union idea. I still wonder why, since it was so clearly the wrong answer, or at least Yi should have "known" that I would interpret it as the union in that instance.
 

Liselle

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Missann, thank you for filling us in :).

It sounds as if your supervisors conspired against you (changed your hours, etc.) even before you contacted your union. Did they take even more action against you afterwards?

I have no idea what to make of this. With your additional information, it does seems like Yi deceived you, though it's possible we might be missing something. Your two readings seem more clear and straightforward than a lot of readings are, and a fair amount of time has gone by for information to click into place, or for further developments to occur which might clear things up.

Have you done any more readings about this since then? Have there been any further developments at your workplace - with your own job, with your relationship with Jane and Steve, with the union - anything that might be relevant?

Hilary says this in her book's commentary on the Oracle section of hexagram 8 (emphasis mine):

"Yu the Great conquered the Chinese floods through a lifetime of hard toil. When his work was complete and the land was safe, he summoned the lords and spirits to a meeting to found the new world. One of them, Fang Feng, came late; Yu had him executed.

To re-create a world of relationships, like Yu, is good fortune. To hesitate and come late, like Fang, is not. The decisive leader has to eliminate the non-committal spirit, the one who procrastinates and isn't quite sure whether to believe in this new union."


The part I marked in bold sounds (to me) like it could be describing your union leadership, about whom you said: "The president even told me (later) that their take on things was that if you did a job long enough it became your job, regardless if it were in your description; the direct opposite of what is in the contract."

Maybe it's time for them to be "executed"? Are union elections coming up any time soon? Are more employees (other than you) dissatisfied with them? Is there anyone in the wings who might be a stronger leader for the union?

I guess what I'm wondering is whether your incident is serving a greater purpose (which would therefore put Yi's "deception" in a much better light :)). Going back to your 36.2 > 11 reading:

36.2
"Brightness hidden, wounded in the left thigh.
For rescue, use the power of a horse.
Good fortune."
(also from Hilary's book)​

"Wounded in the left thigh" - this thigh wound is serious, though not fatal (since the line does go on to talk about rescue and getting away on a strong horse). Maybe incidents like what happened to you (serious, but not fatal) are serving the purpose of exposing your union's weak leadership, so that it can be corrected before something really bad happens? Does that make any sense in real life?
 
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sooo

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45 Get it together
8 Keep it together

I agree with something Lisa said about receiving 8 means there is already a union. It's a matter of keeping that union together. That almost always begins with ones own self, because turmoil and conflict is stressful and we can come apart at the seams, and the effect of that regarding holding our union with others can only be destructive. Bad attitudes within project outwardly, which breaks down communication and solidarity. So I always see the first priority with 8 is to keep it together, don't lose my head especially, as in 8.6, for example. This has been my experience particularly when receiving it several times consecutively.
 
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sooo

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Along the same line, consider 39.4: "Going leads to obstruction, coming leads to union." Going where? Somewhere out there. Coming where? Coming back to myself.

I asked about feeling better today. Yesterday I received a few extremely hot fresh peppers from a friend, which I brusquely fried lightly a half dozen slices with some ground low fat turkey for lunch. By nightfall I felt as though I'd ingested jet fuel, whooweee! And this morning I'm still way off course from the fire. I received 39.3,4 - both which refer to an inward direction, line 3: "Going leads to obstruction, hence he comes back." Line 4: "Going leads to obstruction. Coming leads to union." - changing to 45: getting back together with my constitution, or simply, getting it together.

Anyone want some fresh green peppers from hell? :mischief:

But the point again being, to hold together is to keep yourself together, whether or not others out there are included.
 

Liselle

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45 Get it together
8 Keep it together

I agree with something Lisa said about receiving 8 means there is already a union. It's a matter of keeping that union together. That almost always begins with ones own self, because turmoil and conflict is stressful and we can come apart at the seams, and the effect of that regarding holding our union with others can only be destructive. Bad attitudes within project outwardly, which breaks down communication and solidarity. So I always see the first priority with 8 is to keep it together, don't lose my head especially, as in 8.6, for example. This has been my experience particularly when receiving it several times consecutively.

Sooo, you've made this point twice here, so clearly you think it's important. And, of course, what you're saying is certainly true, just sort of generally in life, but I'm having trouble getting the connection from the I Ching, and applying it to these specific examples.

How are you getting "eliminate the turmoil and conflict in your own self" or "losing your head," etc. from hexagram 8? I don't see it in the Oracle or Image text...8 is in sequence with 7 and 9, neither of which have anything specifically to do with conflict (they're not hex 6, for instance), and 8 and 45 are not in each other's hexagrams of context as far as I can tell.

And then, do you think this sort of thing is actually the problem with either Casstone's or Missann's particular situations in this thread?

I can't see a bad attitude or losing her head at all in Missann's example, and I don't really see it in Casstone's example either, at least based on what she has told us in this thread (I don't know any background that might be in other threads). Of course, there is the obvious caveat that she and her daughter's father are estranged.

Not always, but estranged couples usually have conflict and turmoil between them, they usually don't like each other, and they usually have bad attitudes about the other one. Otherwise they (probably) wouldn't be estranged. And it seems reasonable to guess that might be coming at least as much from the father as from Casstone.

If the I Ching is trying to say nothing more to Casstone than "Get along with each other!" or (somehow) "Stop having a bad attitude!" - as I said, that seems almost ridiculously trite and unhelpful. But I don't know. I wish Casstone would come back and tell us what the exact readings were. If they were anything other than repeated 8 unchanging casts, that could make a tremendous difference. We're really in the dark without knowing the actual readings.

(Just saw your latest post - again, of course, it's a good general point. But is 39>45 anywhere in Casstone's or Missann's examples? There has to be some reason you're mentioning it here...?)
 

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As far as your hot pepper problem - ouch :eek:uch:. Not sure what the reading means...45 can mean gaining support, and maybe a "supportive" thing to do would be to take an antacid? To "support" your stomach in "getting itself back together"? That is, it can fix itself, but could maybe use a little help?
 

pocossin

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Anyone want some fresh green peppers from hell?

Hot pepper helps me control side effects of medicine. Hot peppers can be tamed by cutting in half and scraping out the insides with a spoon, but wear a plastic bag on the hand that holds the pepper. I make pimento cheese with diced red-ripe jalapenos prepared this way. Too much heat and there's a chili head high.
 

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If the I Ching is trying to say nothing more to Casstone than "Get along with each other!" or (somehow) "Stop having a bad attitude!" - as I said, that seems almost ridiculously trite and unhelpful.

Well...I mean, if that's the answer, then it's the answer. I certainly shouldn't say with certainty that it's not helpful. For instance, maybe just a little more effort to be civil with each other would pay big dividends. The I Ching may not be calling for all sunshine and roses, maybe just a bit better attempt to work around the thorns.
 
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Sooo, you've made this point twice here, so clearly you think it's important. And, of course, what you're saying is certainly true, just sort of generally in life, but I'm having trouble getting the connection from the I Ching, and applying it to these specific examples.

How are you getting "eliminate the turmoil and conflict in your own self" or "losing your head," etc. from hexagram 8? I don't see it in the Oracle or Image text...8 is in sequence with 7 and 9, neither of which have anything specifically to do with conflict (they're not hex 6, for instance), and 8 and 45 are not in each other's hexagrams of context as far as I can tell.

And then, do you think this sort of thing is actually the problem with either Casstone's or Missann's particular situations in this thread?

I can't see a bad attitude or losing her head at all in Missann's example, and I don't really see it in Casstone's example either, at least based on what she has told us in this thread (I don't know any background that might be in other threads). Of course, there is the obvious caveat that she and her daughter's father are estranged.

Not always, but estranged couples usually have conflict and turmoil between them, they usually don't like each other, and they usually have bad attitudes about the other one. Otherwise they (probably) wouldn't be estranged. And it seems reasonable to guess that might be coming at least as much from the father as from Casstone.

If the I Ching is trying to say nothing more to Casstone than "Get along with each other!" or (somehow) "Stop having a bad attitude!" - as I said, that seems almost ridiculously trite and unhelpful. But I don't know. I wish Casstone would come back and tell us what the exact readings were. If they were anything other than repeated 8 unchanging casts, that could make a tremendous difference. We're really in the dark without knowing the actual readings.

(Just saw your latest post - again, of course, it's a good general point. But is 39>45 anywhere in Casstone's or Missann's examples? There has to be some reason you're mentioning it here...?)

The turmoil is in the circumstance and the question, such as the two cases sighted in this thread. Whenever I, or those I've personally worked with, who have repeatedly received 8, with or without lines, always had turmoil involved, something which drew them away from themselves, separated them from their own "togetherness". Rather than focusing on whatever was 'out there' that threw them an emotional curve ball, it was keeping their own head together that would ultimately give them relief and resolution to what was creating their anxiety.

Not only do I believe it's applicable, I believe it's fundamental in 8's meaning, and usually missed entirely.

Losing ones head can be seen in 8.6: no head for holding together.

The reason I brought in the 39.3,4 -45 was to draw attention to the coming back to ones self aspect, holding with ones senses and facilities, getting and then keeping it together. In the case of the intestinal distress from the pepper, looking for the solution "out there" or looking askance was not as helpful as just being aware that this will work its way through my system, a form of getting it (back) together, i.e. 45, which I see as a sister to keeping it together in 8. Very simple really. It doesn't necessarily say do not take antacids etc, just to take it easy, keep it together, it will pass, and it has.

Perhaps "unproductive attitude" might be easier to accept than a bad attitude, but they are the same to me - an unhelpful thing to do.

I had a close friend, who wanted to be more. This went on for months. She was new to IC and couldn't understand why she had a continuing run of h8 in various combinations. She kept applying it to holding together with me, I kept suggesting it was saying to keep herself together. Eventually it ended altogether. I heard she moved to Egypt to hold together with some US guy who worked there. Later I learned that he was abusive and wasn't what she had hoped for. It was herself she first needed to keep it together with. Instead she was scattered and eventually desperate for someone "out there" to hold together with.

This is fundamental, and it seems the great majority miss it continuously, which is why I'm stressing it today, in another thread as well. Ginnie says 8.1 brings unexpected good luck and a windfall. This is pretty typical, but I think Wilhelm had the exact correct idea in commenting: "Fundamental sincerity is the only proper basis for forming relationships. This attitude, symbolized by a full earthen bowl, in which the content is everything and the empty form nothing, shows itself not in clever words but through the strength of what lies within the speaker. This strength is so great that it has power to attract good fortune to itself from without." It must begin within oneself.
 

Liselle

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Sooo - you're making a good point. Wilhelm's judgement translation says the following, which reinforces what you're saying and the Wilhelm commentary you quoted (emphasis mine):

"HOLDING TOGETHER brings good fortune.
Inquire of the oracle once again
Whether you possess sublimity, constancy, and perseverance;
Then there is no blame.

Those who are uncertain gradually join.
Whoever come too late
Meets with misfortune."

Also, Hilary wrote an article on hexagram 8 in which she said (emphasis mine):

"And then - this is one of the hexagrams Yi most often uses to question you. Retracing your consultation to its source means asking yourself where your question comes from. Not where it leads to, not its logical consequence, but the deep-seated vision, or value, or need that gave rise to it."

(from http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/learn/gua/hexagrams/hexagram8.php)​

(It seems the second line of the Judgement is translated by Wilhelm as "Inquire of the oracle once again," and by Hilary as "At the origin of oracle consultation" or, as she worded it in the article, "[r]etracing your consultation to its source," the source or origin being you yourself.)

And you're probably correct that people often miss this nuance, and think that part is just an instruction to cast another reading. Or, if they know that's not true, they're not sure what it's saying, and they gloss over it. (I'm familiar with both those responses...:blush:)

But you can't just bop around the forum wherever you see hexagram 8, and preach at people that whatever-it-is is all their own fault because they have a bad/unproductive attitude (summarizing).

In Missann's particular case, my best guess is that hex 8 really was simply referring to the union at her workplace, and her attitude had nothing to do with it.

In Casstone's example...maybe? Although even there, I'd mention (1) it's likely that the father has an equally bad attitude towards her as she might have towards him, and (2) I can understand Yi leaping over the question(s) being asked to say something more important, and that may be what was happening here, but surely at some point over the months and several readings, Yi could have tried another tack.

Casstone: "How will this court proceeding go for me?"
Yi: "Seek union with the father!"
Casstone: "Will the judge allow us to go?"
Yi: "Seek union with the father!"
Casstone: "What will the judge's decision be?"
Yi: "Seek union with the father!"

Meanwhile, the court proceeding continued unabated because if that is what Yi was saying, Casstone wasn't getting it.

I've seen Yi try explaining things in a different way, when obviously the light bulb isn't going off for the person. And from what we know (and we don't know the exact readings), Yi didn't do that here. I really don't blame Casstone for feeling blindsided.

Moreover, we don't even know for sure that's what Yi was saying. Casstone was asking about the court proceeding, and the judge. For all we know, Yi was saying something hexagram 8-ish about the judge. That's an angle we haven't considered.

It will be interesting to see what Casstone says about this if she comes back.
 

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