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What is love ? 30.4 > 22

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maremaria

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Hi,

I asked Yi " What is Love ?" and got 30.4 >22

I wonder how you perceive that answer. By love I mean The general affection and not just the romantic love.

Maria
 

Tohpol

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Hi,

I asked Yi " What is Love ?" and got 30.4 >22

I wonder how you perceive that answer. By love I mean The general affection and not just the romantic love.

Maria

Ha! I was looking into that very question this weekend. Unfortunately, not in a practical sense more on a philosophical basis. :rolleyes::D

It's probably the most pondered issue this side of the Universe of course, and I think the hex we get can be quite personal to our particular life path /lessons. Maybe that's the case here? Did you have any background thoughts behind the question? It's almost like the Yi has answered with the idea of what love tends to be... rather than what it actually is.

Real love is extremely hard to find I think - at least the kind of romantic love alluded to by the troubadours and the chivalric tradition. Plato's idea and esoteric christianity talks about two souls that are actually one that were split at the beginning of or the descent into matter. Each have to be working on themselves over many lifetimes to attain that resonance that magnetizes them together again. Thus it is pretty rare that they find each other right away - takes quite a time. Then there are your common garden variety soul-mates and all kinds of degrees of love...Big subject. Affection is a form of love I suppose - though a diluted one.

30 is quite an enigmatic hex and I still have some difficulty with it. I think it's often to do with where and how we obtain our love, respect and support. Separation from a group or individual or a coming together; seeing how we operate in relationships, finding out what really nourishes us.

I think Line 4 talks about something that burns brightly but too quickly so that there's not much left leading to the superficial aspect of 22. I'd say that's pretty much the dominant nature of relationships worldwide right now: governed largely by chemicals which inevitably wear off. Then a more objective realisation of a union can take place which can then start to grow into an inseparable love or fairly quickly separate. I used to get 30 regularly in the past when I was asking about my place in an organisation. The Yi was trying to tell me find out what REALLY nourishes you and you won't have to ask these kinds of questions.

Then I'm not a believer in life-time unions generally unless you are very "lucky" enough to be experiencing a life where you are destined to find that soul-half that is part of you and vice-versa.

P.S. I like what Rosada said about 30.4 from a question on marriage posed by Elizabeth recently, which is strongly linked to 27.

Topal
 

willowfox

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Hi,

I asked Yi " What is Love ?" and got 30.4 >22

I wonder how you perceive that answer. By love I mean The general affection and not just the romantic love.

Maria
"Its coming is sudden;
It flames up, dies down, is thrown away."

Well, this sounds very sexual to me, the act itself I mean.:D A quickie before tea.
 
M

maremaria

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Hi Topal,

Had not a specific question in my mind. There are thousands of questions in there. !!!Many relationships in my life seems to change , others to the better and others to the worst and this make me wonder about the way I function . I thinks that doesn’t aqnswer your question.

Since you mention Plato , his definition of love is “ the desire for the perpetual possession of the good “ good is the same with beautiful .
The way I perceive 22 is not about something superficial but about the beauty (sometimes not visible) someone/something holds thus getting 22 is something that I can understand or at least it make sense to me.

Now 30.4 is the one I have difficulty to understand.


Wilhelm : Its coming is sudden; It flames up, dies down, is thrown away.
LiSe : Then arising suddenly, then praised, then dying, then thrown away

Bradford:
What a breakthrough this one’s arrival appears
What a blaze !
What an ending !
What a waste…
(30.4x What a breakthrough this one’s arrival appears (but) having no place to fit in.

What that fire (30) has to do with Love. Is love like a fire that burns everything is not important ( not good, not beautiful ) ?????
Is it’s light that show us what has endurance and what not ?????

Topal :Then I'm not a believer in life-time unions generally unless you are very "lucky" enough to be experiencing a life where you are destined to find that soul-half that is part of you and vice-versa.
I believe in life-time unions , even the other is gone. As for the "soul-mate" I want to believe that is not only one. There are many :D, that helps us to reach wholeness . If I'm wrong please tell me gently ;)

Willowfox Its coming is sudden;
It flames up, dies down, is thrown away."

Well, this sounds very sexual to me, the act itself I mean. A quickie before tea.
:rofl:
 

rosada

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Really good answer. Thought provoking I mean. We usually assume that Love to be Love must be long lasting, eternal, but 30.4 >22 says this is not the case.
Interpreting 30 as two separate, individually complete entities - and NOT two halves that must find each other to make one whole, interpreting 22 as being a state of GRACE - a state of beauty and harmony, not necessarily superficial in the sence of being phoney or insincere, but one that by nature cannot endure. Like being 16 and in love - it's not phoney or superficial - in maybe the realest love we ever know! - but it cannot last because we cannot stay 16. So anyway..

LOVE: Two individuals linked together in a state of Grace that flames up and dies down.
 
M

maremaria

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Hi Rosada,

Could you elaborate the 30.4 ? I still don't get it.

I thought Eros is the one is not enduring. Its the 16-part of love. ( we have a different word for "fall in love"=eros and "I love" - agape. )
Eros can became love but sometimes is like 30.4 says.
And I agree that love requires "individually complete entities"

Maybe Eros is 16 and Love(agape) is 32 ? What do you think ?

Maria
 
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dobro p

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I asked Yi " What is Love ?" and got 30.4 >22

I wonder how you perceive that answer. By love I mean The general affection and not just the romantic love.
30.4 is something that flares up quickly and is dispensed with just as quickly. This is the Yi speaking to you, you understand, and not to everyone. So one of two things is the case:

1 Love is a thing of the moment to you; you don't value it very deeply.

2 Your question isn't really serious or heartfelt. You're just asking a question about something that you don't need to ask about. In other words, you already KNOW what love is, and asking the Yi what it is is superficial and won't change anything.
 
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maremaria

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30.4 is something that flares up quickly and is dispensed with just as quickly. This is the Yi speaking to you, you understand, and not to everyone. So one of two things is the case:

1 Love is a thing of the moment to you; you don't value it very deeply.

2 Your question isn't really serious or heartfelt. You're just asking a question about something that you don't need to ask about. In other words, you already KNOW what love is, and asking the Yi what it is is superficial and won't change anything.
Yes, probably the Yi speaks to me.

about 1. I wish that was true!! My life and affairs would be much more easier. !!!! :rolleyes:
about 2. From where you assume that I know , and Yi tells me that this is a superficial question ? From 22 ?

maria
 

dobro p

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Yes, probably the Yi speaks to me.

about 1. I wish that was true!! My life and affairs would be much more easier. !!!! :rolleyes:
about 2. From where you assume that I know , and Yi tells me that this is a superficial question ? From 22 ?

maria
The meaning of 30.4 refers to something superficial. So, if the Yi is commenting on the question you're asking, then it's saying that it's a superficial question, that it's not serious, that you'll forget about it soon.
 
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maremaria

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The meaning of 30.4 refers to something superficial. So, if the Yi is commenting on the question you're asking, then it's saying that it's a superficial question, that it's not serious, that you'll forget about it soon.
So , in your opinion, Yi says that I am wasting my time with such a superficial questions :eek: Yi has a bad day.:)

thanks for your insight
Maria
 

dobro p

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So , in your opinion, Yi says that I am wasting my time with such a superficial questions :eek: Yi has a bad day.:)
Nope. *You're* having a bad day. lol Look, I see two possible interpretations of what you presented, but there are probably other interpretations that other people see. But you know, sometimes the Yi tells us stuff that isn't very flattering, and it takes some honesty or courage to see it and acknowledge it.
 
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maremaria

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Still pondering on that ……..

Maybe 30.4 talks about most of the people perceive /believe what love is. We are attracting from the others and we believe that he will fill the gap we have inside. At the beginnings is so good but then when the gap remains empty and the other does not give us what we falsely dreamed of or expect then “love” evaporates. This is not real love. Love is our lonely way towards Beauty, Good, Harmony.(22) And the other(s) we have relationships with , (parents, teachers, friends, lover) are our company in each time we acquire another little part of the Beauty .The people we celebrate with them our joy and our pain. We take from them and give to them, no like a bargain “if I five you that what you will give me back” , but as an open exchange. “I have that and I want to share it with you”

Another 30.4 . Love is the fire we have inside our . But to have to consume fuels to keep it. Love consumes /reduce our convictions, expectations , our ego. Like the Cherokee’s story with the two wolfs the good one and the evil one. The one we feed, it’s the one it wins.

Maria
 

rosada

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I think dobro is the one having the bad day.:D
Seriously, let's assume 30.4 is a streight answer to the question, "What is love?" and consider the ramifications of the answer:

THE CLINGING. Perseverance furthers.
It brings successl.
Care of the cow brings good fortune.

That which is bright rises twice:
The image of FIRE.
Thus the great man, by perpetuating this brightness,
Illumines the four quarters of the world.

Its coming is sudden;
It flames up, dies down, is thrown away.

GRACE has success.
In small matters
It is favorable to undertake something.

Fire at the foot of the mountain:
The image of GRACE.
Thus does the superior man proceed
When clearing up current affairs.
But he dare not decide controversial issues this way.
---

Okay, the fact that we start with 30. The Clinging suggests the I Ching is addressing the emotion that arises between two adults, and not the love a parent has for a child or the love God has for His creation or any of the other bazillion manefestations of Love. 30 is essentially about how to find one's place in the world, how to fit in without losing one's identity. Yi reccomends a docile nature - care of the cow - but also adds there is no need to be shy about being who you are, spread your light to the four corners of the world! The result? If you are true to yourself, be who you are but don't force yoursel on others, from time to time we will get to experience that wonderful moment of GRACE when we do feel united with a twin flame and together we have an enhanced experience of being one with the whole world. We are just cautioned that these moments of Grace do not necessarily last - indeed, it maybe that part of the nature of this Parner Soulmate kind of Love is we feel it doesn't matter if the moment is going to last - the hell with tomorrow, be mine tonight! - and perhaps that is why the warning that "controversial issues" - like who should I marry? - ought not be decided based solely on who do you love?
 
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rosada

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Further thoughts:

Getting a visual of two trains passing in the night. All the windows are dark except two - one on the train going North and one on the train going South. As these two trains pass the person in the train going North and the person in the train going South can see into each others' rooms/lives. It only lasts for as long as it lasts. The moment will pass and be forgotten. But Oh! For the moment it lasts! Grace: Time stands still.
 

martin

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30 to 22, fire caused by (beautiful) appearance?
Yes, such a fire might burn out quickly (line 4).

It looks as if the Yi doesn't give a direct answer here. Instead it gives an image to ponder, with a question, "is this love?".
Or "is this what love is not?" or "how does this relate to what you think love is?"

Whenever we think about love there are two issues that tend to come up. How deep or superficial is it? And, related to that, how long does it last? Both are covered by 30 to 22.
So the Yi, instead of answering the question directly, brings these issues up. In this way it helps us to think about love.
That is what I would expect of a wise friend. Make people think, that is often much better than giving them 'answers'. :)
 
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martin

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Now that I'm on it ... I think, in general, that the assumption that the Yi gives 'answers' is more often than not wrong (with exceptions) and hinders our understanding of its responses.

The Yi may 'only' gives questioners something to contemplate that should help them to find answers to their questions themselves.
Themselves, themselves, ...


Q: 1+1=?

Yi: Well, you have an apple and then a friend gives you another apple, okay? Now look at those apples, what do you see?

:)
 

rosada

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I like your explanation Martin. I think of it as the I Ching doesn't so much give us answers as gives us a picture of the situation, a snapshot of the world at the moment we are asking the question. It doesn't tell us what we should or should not do. It just says "Well, here's what the situation looks like from over here." Then it's up to us if we see the glass half empty or half full.
 
M

maremaria

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.
So the Yi, instead of answering the question directly, brings these issues up. In this way it helps us to think about love.
That is what I would expect of a wise friend. Make people think, that is often much better than giving them 'answers'. :)
Martin,
I liked and I agree with most of what you said. Especially with the above quote.
Frustrating isn’t it.? :rant:You expect a concrete answer and the only you get is more questions !!!! I’m joking here.

Rosada,
Thank you for your contribution. Your posts give me a lot of Questions to think about. You said, "Well, here's what the situation looks like from over here." I believe that you are right.

Dare to say that the first impression I had for the answer I got was maybe Yi gave me a wrong answer (30.4) :bag:, but then the questions that also Martin mentions ("is this love?"., "is this what love is not?”,"how does this relate to what you think love is?") make me reconsider my first impression. Hey , I’m still new to this and I have a lot to learn…:eek:
Once again, I am amazed from the mental stimulation a Yi’s answer causes . All this questions that spring out , I believe too that helps the questioners discovered or re-discovered hidden information exist inside ourselves or somewhere else .
Still don’t know what exactly Yi wanted to tell me , but I’m happy with that “wow !!!” moments I had .There were very 22 moments .

Thanks everybody for your contribution
:)
Maria
 

rodaki

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how about that?

Geia sou Maria!:)

recently got 22.4 to 30 and looking into the index run into this thread about 30.4 . .
To me it sounds like Yi is saying sth like: The State of Grace is what is Clinging (in the context of Grace and Beauty Fire may flare up or it may quiet down without influencing the actual matter of the landscape)
In terms of trigrams, two interconnected sources of fire lead to fire under mountain. The interrelation of fires is unpredictable, but even if their fuel won't last what their flames reveal is the quiet assuredness of a mountain that remains no matter what.
In other words: love of all kinds is a stable presence (a state of grace, a mountain) that is often lighted up by intense feelings (of all kinds, not just sexual). Perhaps Love as a silent force which in normal conditions is dimly but steadily illuminated(22). It's interesting to see how the fast burning of 30.4 turns the upper trigram not to a heap of ash easily dispersed but into the view of a magnificent mountain. Thus the self consuming line 4 is not exhausting the warmth of fire but serves to see what endures . .
Working with lines and their fan yao I can see symmetrical images in 22.1 and 22.4:
In 22.1 to 52 what is highlighted is the form of the mountain (as if you have two semi-transparent sheets on top of one another, the image we'll get is an overdrawn mountain figure with the fire almost covered up by the second sheet.)
In 22.4 to 30 we start again with the image of fire under mountain but the second transparency highlights the fire, what becomes more visible is its sparkling flames, the mountain stays in the background.
Back to 30.4 it works the other way round: starting from fire under fire, the second sheet covers up the flames of the one with the strength and perseverance of the mountain and leaves the other by its side reminding us that the site is still lived in and not abandoned . .

enough from me already! . . hope that makes sense to you :)

rodaki
 

em ching

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Rosada: "Yi reccomends a docile nature - care of the cow - but also adds there is no need to be shy about being who you are, spread your light to the four corners of the world! The result? If you are true to yourself, be who you are but don't force yoursel on others, from time to time we will get to experience that wonderful moment of GRACE when we do feel united with a twin flame and together we have an enhanced experience of being one with the whole world."

That's nice and makes sense :) But how to achieve inner stability and acceptance... the ability to be true to yourself (and that does seem to be the way to happiness and contentment) when there are so many opposing forces and pressures, so many different people (some of whom may as well be aliens to you).. I suppose to be true to yourself you have to be brave and have faith that you will not be lonely if you carve your own path that may lead away from the masses. Don't tread where others tread just to feel accepted. That is an illusion, and you compromise your unique perspective.

I guess Grace is the hexagram to be adopted - that's how you should consider your conduct. Respect yourself then others follow suit.. but it's easy to let that slide :eek:

I suppose, once you stop beating yourself up about your difference from others, you will be able to attract a person of like mind who you can be happy with, because they will finally be able to see your light, perhaps light which mirrors theirs. The one for you will be able to see themselves in you perhaps, when you are comfortable with yourself.

Perhaps a question about how to achieve this sense of love, for yourself and others, is in order, because that is elusive to me a lot of the time because of my self doubt. Perhaps I should ask where it stems from? Or how to shake it off? If it's a childhood experience thing, parenting etc then maybe I should ask how do you break the vicious circle? I guess a supreme effort of will. Perhaps because I'm afraid to put faith in myself and my difference from others, because I fear that would lead to lonliness. I guess I hide my light sometimes, because I fear it will be rejected. But if I were happy and comfortable with myself, it would benefit the world, or at least the people I come into contact with, because you can be more supportive and direct your attentions outwards, once you're at peace with yourself. It's just hard to trust your inner voice or instinct about people or things sometimes, because they may be borne of insecurity, but that's another question alltogether, and perhaps where the Yi comes in so useful as it illuminates your truth?

Anyway, hope that's clear and a helful contribution to this thread! That reading has given rise to some lovely quotable comments. (Also like this one)

"Plato's idea and esoteric christianity talks about two souls that are actually one that were split at the beginning of or the descent into matter. Each have to be working on themselves over many lifetimes to attain that resonance that magnetizes them together again. Thus it is pretty rare that they find each other right away - takes quite a time. Then there are your common garden variety soul-mates and all kinds of degrees of love...Big subject. Affection is a form of love I suppose - though a diluted one."

This theme also relates to readings in my latest post! I guess highlighting everythings connected. Perhaps, though widely different, the hexagrams all, in their unique ways, point towards the same idea of truth, integrity and perhaps ultimately love and each indivdual finding their place?

Gah I'm rambling now, once I get going I really spill, but I'm really enjoying exploring the Yi at the mo. This site is great and I also love the way the Yi readings are so mentally, spiritually and emotionally stimulating, eventhough it can be exasperating trying to grapple with the never ending questions and musings it generates! A Universe unto itself...:)

:bows:
 
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M

maremaria

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geia sou Dora,

Yesterday I was listening to a Campbell's interview about love and this reading came to my mind

After a year still pondering….:rolleyes:
 
M

meng

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Fire (like love) relies on fuel. That means it lives moment to moment. It is not something you turn on and walk away from, and expect it to still be burning when you return to it. It will either go out or burn down the house.
 

rosada

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30.4 > 22

My candle burns at both ends,
It will not last the night.
But ah my friends!
And oh my foes!
It makes a lovely light.

- Dorothy Parker
 

em ching

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That's nice - what would life be without light?
It keeps the fire burning and the drive to go forth and stay put (on planet earth), even if the fire contains the highest highs and the lowest lows...

lalala :hug:
 

rodaki

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geia sou Dora,

Yesterday I was listening to a Campbell's interview about love and this reading came to my mind

After a year still pondering….:rolleyes:
Γεια χαρα!(επιτελους μπορεσα να το γυρισω στα ελληνικα!;) )
what a happy coincidence with both of us going into this reading at about the same time!:)

from Meng
Fire (like love) relies on fuel. That means it lives moment to moment. It is not something you turn on and walk away from, and expect it to still be burning when you return to it. It will either go out or burn down the house.
Always thought of passion as fire, while I find love always preceding and exceeding whatever comings and goings I might choose . . but then again, perhaps time will prove me wrong, can't say i know for sure . .:rolleyes:

from Rosada:
My candle burns at both ends,
It will not last the night.
But ah my friends!
And oh my foes!
It makes a lovely light.

- Dorothy Parker
really lovely this one, thanks for sharing Rosada :)

from em ching:
lalala :hug:

lala lala ;)


rodaki
 

ravenstar

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Interstingly, I was updating my blog this morning and found this quote which seems so appropriate for this thread.

"To love others you must love yourself. You can only give to thers what you have yourself. This is especially true of love. You cannot give what you have not learned and experienced. Since love is not a thing, it is not lost when given. You can offer your love completely to hundreds of people and still retain the same love you had originally. It is like knowledge. The wise man [woman] can teach all he knows and when he'sthrough he'll still know what he has taught. But first he must have knowledge." Dr. Leo Buscalgia

To bring something of yourself to others without expecting a return is a form of love. Life springs from the attitude that love is to be happy with yourself and with others around you.

Could 30.4 be an exciting journey of twists and turns helping us explore our own beliefs and motivations. It comes just as quickly as it goes but the effects can be very profound and if it results in changing a belief or judgment then it can be quite visible and startling! Internally it infuses us with an energy that knows no bounds....perhaps this is the LOVE you speak of.

ravenstar
 
M

maremaria

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Everyone, enjoyed reading your thoughts. :)

From all those “definitions” about love I have come across, my personal favorite is the one of Saint-Exupery : “ perhaps love is the process of my leading you gently back to yourself”

Bonding and freedom together. It fits everywhere. Between family members, friends, romantic partners.


Back to Yi…
Love is a sublime (22) fire (30) ? Maybe.

Can love exist without passion ? I can’t imagine that. Maybe is my Scorpio nature but passion, as energy that is flowing, is important to be present.

What Meng said, makes me think again my question and the answer I got then.
Q: what is love ?
A : is a choice. Your choice what to do with that fire . Be present and fuel it or absent and expect it will either go out or burn down the house.
 
M

meng

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“ perhaps love is the process of my leading you gently back to yourself”
Sublimely Agape.

edit: Except I don't always agree with gently. Sometimes love is brutally candid. People have a right to know where they stand, and to clearly understand the limits and conditions they are dealing with (30). A small hurt hidden will become a big hurt when it is reveled.
 
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maremaria

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Ok , I asked again the same question. Couldn’t resist. :rolleyes:
A year before, the answer was was 30.4 > 22 . Today is 15, no changing lines.
Authenticity , as Brad calls 15. Give and Take , LiSe’s take.

Its interesting to read LiSe’s hex 15 commentaries . Can you see in them a shade of line 30.4 and 22 ?

It is an art, expressing oneself and at the same time not offending the other in any way. Giving him his honor, respecting his views, giving him the room to express himself too.
Unity means also to stay free of black-white thinking. When something is true, it should mean it is life sustaining, but anything “true” which excludes something else being true, is a sign you are talking of very temporal, short living truths. This is not scientific? Just take a good look at science.
Substituting the ‘words’ for ‘bird’ gives Jian1, A mythical bird with one wing and one eye. Two of them could fly: the perfect cooperation.
Who has the gift of qian can fly to higher places than he would ever be able to reach on his own. Even more so in the realm of “truth”.


Maria
 
M

maremaria

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Except I don't always agree with gently. Sometimes love is brutally candid. People have a right to know where they stand, and to clearly understand the limits and conditions they are dealing with (30). A small hurt hidden will become a big hurt when it is reveled.

Yes, I know exactly what do you mean. Still love though...
 

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