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What is love ? 30.4 > 22

rodaki

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For some reason the thing that comes into my mind looking at the trigrams of Modesty (earth over mountain) is that post in the Open Space about Gobekli Tepe . . huge stone monuments covered up with earth . .

Earth over Mountain: personal perspective opening up to receptiveness?
Love as the all receptive, it can receive all adjectives and denominations?
What that would make of it? -simply what is, the material our experiences present as an unsparing or blissful image, or both (mountain) . . I think the Yi has been following our discussions!!:rolleyes:

Maybe seeing which lines change from 22 to 15 we can see how they relate . .
they are 22.1,6 (from LiSe):

Initial 9 : Energetic in one's feet. Abandon cart and go on foot.
Anything you do which is really you is beautiful and creative. Be wary of the danger of tools and examples. Every use of them takes part of your own doing away. They add possibilities and comfort, will maybe bring admiration - but people always long back to the good old uncomfortable days when life was still simple and real. Tools bring the accomplishments of today, your own creativity connects to the eternal sources.
(Changes to hex.52)

Above 9: White energy. Without fault.
Value announces itself plain. It is easier to find truth, love or peace where things are simple. Lots of decorationis usually a sign of little essence.
(Changes to hex.36)
. . :rolleyes:

oh and just looked this up:
"candid: 1630, from L. candidum "white, pure, sincere," from candere "to shine," from PIE base *kand- "to glow, to shine" (see candle). Metaphoric extension to "frank" first recorded 1675."


rodaki
 

maria22

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i think that,the answer is only valid for you.Love in general can mean so manny things from an individual to an individual...Its mostly what you think of love.
 
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maremaria

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Above 9: White energy. Without fault.
Value announces itself plain. It is easier to find truth, love or peace where things are simple. Lots of decorationis usually a sign of little essence.
(Changes to hex.36)

. . :rolleyes:

oh and just looked this up:
"candid: 1630, from L. candidum "white, pure, sincere," from candere "to shine," from PIE base *kand- "to glow, to shine" (see candle). Metaphoric extension to "frank" first recorded 1675."


rodaki

Geia sou Dora,

I like that ! ( Ελληνικό δαιμόνιο ;))

One reason I quote LiSe’s comment is just because I looove the Jian bird story. The other half we miss to feel complete , inside us or out there.
Also because in a way say most of the thing we have discussed here.

Maria
 

maria22

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Γεια χαρα!(επιτελους μπορεσα να το γυρισω στα ελληνικα!;) )
what a happy coincidence with both of us going into this reading at about the same time!:)



Always thought of passion as fire, while I find love always preceding and exceeding whatever comings and goings I might choose . . but then again, perhaps time will prove me wrong, can't say i know for sure . .:rolleyes:



really lovely this one, thanks for sharing Rosada :)




lala lala ;)


rodaki

re paidia...se ellhnes epesa?
 
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maremaria

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i think that,the answer is only valid for you.Love in general can mean so manny things from an individual to an individual...Its mostly what you think of love.

Yes, maybe. But its great to 58 , isn't it ? :)

Maria
 

Trojina

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i think that,the answer is only valid for you.Love in general can mean so manny things from an individual to an individual...Its mostly what you think of love.

Exactly. In 30.4 one sees love as the thrill bit. Doesn't mean that is love, just one persons relation to it at the moment of asking. 30.4 wouldn't bode well for a womans love for her baby or even a childs love for its rabbit nor even a gardeners love for his garden. 30.4 might be fairly capricious, quick burn up and throw away thrill type romantic love that needs constant attendance or it dies. Other kinds of love don't depend on being constantly fueled they just are. love just exists as between mother and infant etc etc...or love just exists. If it depended on anything it wouldn't be love it would be something else. So I saw the 30.4 answer as saying what you think is love is not love but it is your idea of love...Its possible if love is undefinable that each and every answer to 'what is love' may be to show what love is not.
 
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maremaria

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Other kinds of love don't depend on being constantly fueled they just are. love just exists as between mother and infant etc etc...or love just exists. If it depended on anything it wouldn't be love it would be something else. .

Can you give some examples ?
 

Trojina

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Can you give some examples ?

Isn't love the very essence of all life and being ? At least isn't that what what most major philosophies and religions tell us. Can I give an example of that ? Well in an abstract sense no but the most clear is as I said a mothers love for her baby. That love hardly needs fuel to burn. She keeps loving even if the baby dies or is taken away. The baby doesn't have to work hard to get her love, to be charming, attractive or witty etc etc the love is just there. Now if such love were described as 30.4 I would worry for the baby. I can see 30.4 in all kinds of sexual/romantic relations where they need a certain level of intensity to thrive, but with constancy comes boredom and they are discarded. Thats what i see in 30.4. your relation to your idea of love last year, needing a certain level of exitement of 'feeding' to thrive. You said yourself you need passion. So this is your answer, its about you. We can't generalise that to all lovers who love in everyway there is everywhere IMO...how can 30.4 apply to loving ones parents, loving kids, loving your dog, loving your work, loving the students in your class or the patients you nurse etc etc. 30.4 seemed fitting to me to kinds of romantic attachments but hardly providing an answer to 'what is love' for the entire human race...just for you at that time.
 
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maremaria

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..... Well in an abstract sense no but the most clear is as I said a mothers love for her baby. That love hardly needs fuel to burn. She keeps loving even if the baby dies or is taken away. The baby doesn't have to work hard to get her love, to be charming, attractive or witty etc etc the love is just there. .

Unfortunelly this doesn't happened allways. Have you ever read Alice Miller's books ? There are so many stories where the baby or the young child has to work very hard to get that love. Too many exeptions to say that is the rule.

But maybe you talk about something else
 
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Trojina

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Unfortunelly this doesn't happened allways. Have you ever read Alice Miller's books ? There are so many stories where the baby or the young child has to work very hard to get that love. Too many exeptions to say that is the rule.

Yes i know maternal love isn't always present, it was an example of unconditional love. But if love is a universal force, an energy we partake in, bigger really than we can comprehend then me trying to provide empirical data for you of examples of love just 'being' will be an impossible task. How can you confine love to any rule ? Are you trying to capture an idea of love by asking Yi what it is ? How can any answer contain that ? Your answer was for you, it fitted well for you it seems. That was how love was for you then, now it is 15, also for you.
 
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rodaki

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Unfortunelly this doesn't happened allways. Have you ever read Alice Miller's books ? There are so many stories where the baby or the young child has to work very hard to get that love. Too many exeptions to say that is the rule.

but then it is not a question of love itself but of our way towards love, both on the giving and the receiving end, no? . .

(Maria den exw psaxei ka8olou ti ginetai me ta adds alla s'eyxaristw :) )

rodaki
 

rodaki

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Yes i don't need to read any books to know maternal love isn't always present, it was an example of unconditional love. But if love is a universal force, an energy we partake in, bigger really than we can comprehend then me trying to provide empirical data for you of examples of love just 'being' will be an impossible task. How can you confine love to any rule ? Are you trying to capture an idea of love by asking Yi what it is ? How can any answer contain that ? Your answer was for you, it fitted well for you it seems. That was how love was for you then, now it is 15, also for you.


Ups! crossed posts . .

rodaki
 

Trojina

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but then it is not a question of love itself but of our way towards love, both on the giving and the receiving end, no? . .

(Maria den exw psaxei ka8olou ti ginetai me ta adds alla s'eyxaristw :) )

rodaki

Yes some people say its an illusion that love is ever absent. Nice thought don't know if its true. I think it is the Course in Miracles people who say love is constant and we who just think we travel in and out of it, as if it were sometimes there sometimes not.
 

rodaki

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Yes some people say its an illusion that love is ever absent. Nice thought don't know if its true

Same here . . I just took for granted that love must be there between mother and child but the access to it is lost . .
 

bamboo

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30.4 Doesnt seem just an individual answer. Love is the flash of inspiration/illuminati. Vision. The Vision is instantaneous and fleeting The vision is not something we hold on to or can hold on to,but doesnt mean love is not always present....only that our awareness of it comes in divine flashes. it only pokes its visible head out for us in flashes of sudden illumination. A-ha moments are love, the truth blazing.

it is there in a glance that pierces the heart, it is the moment you hear the first cry of your newborn freshly out of your womb, it is the eye contact with a passing stranger. a sudden flash of inspiration gives rise to creative expression and art. It is the essence of Love at First Sight..even longlived happy marriages are born in that single instant of sudden vision/recognition.

It is the moments when the veil between worlds lifts. It is grace. jim hendrix said "excuse me, while I kiss the sky"
 
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maremaria

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30.4 Doesnt seem just an individual answer. Love is the flash of inspiration/illuminati. Vision. The Vision is instantaneous and fleeting The vision is not something we hold on to or can hold on to,but doesnt mean love is not always present....only that our awareness of it comes in divine flashes. it only pokes its visible head out for us in flashes of sudden illumination. A-ha moments are love, the truth blazing.

it is there in a glance that pierces the heart, it is the moment you hear the first cry of your newborn freshly out of your womb, it is the eye contact with a passing stranger. a sudden flash of inspiration gives rise to creative expression and art. It is the essence of Love at First Sight..even longlived happy marriages are born in that single instant of sudden vision/recognition.

It is the moments when the veil between worlds lifts. It is grace. jim hendrix said "excuse me, while I kiss the sky"

LOVEly :)
 

em ching

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it is there in a glance that pierces the heart, it is the moment you hear the first cry of your newborn freshly out of your womb, it is the eye contact with a passing stranger. a sudden flash of inspiration gives rise to creative expression and art. It is the essence of Love at First Sight..even longlived happy marriages are born in that single instant of sudden vision/recognition.

Nice. Nice that it exists, even if the moments are too fleeting sometimes to satisfy us humans forever, or not always in accord with others at the time, nice that they are there and always will be.

It is the moments when the veil between worlds lifts.

Fab metaphor :)
The earth/ your foundations moving, reaching outwards...
 
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maremaria

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Yes i know maternal love isn't always present, it was an example of unconditional love. But if love is a universal force, an energy we partake in, bigger really than we can comprehend then me trying to provide empirical data for you of examples of love just 'being' will be an impossible task. How can you confine love to any rule ? Are you trying to capture an idea of love by asking Yi what it is ? How can any answer contain that ? Your answer was for you, it fitted well for you it seems. That was how love was for you then, now it is 15, also for you.


I didn’t understand what did you meant by saying “Other kinds of love don't depend on being constantly fueled they just are.”, that’s why I asked you. I guess you speak for the “unconditional maternal love” and not just for the maternal love. But even that love if not fuelled can be alive. Don’t know .

I think we express and experience love when we are in “contact” with that energy, as you said, through another being or ourselves. Don’t know how we can achieve that when we are “absent” , “away”. When we don’t have access to that energy, as Rodaki said, when we can’t receive or give does love exists for us ?

Btw, I’m pretty aware of your objections about those kind of questions and Yi answers. You have express it many times here and in the past. Its your opinion , and I hear it as it is.
 

Trojina

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I didn’t understand what did you meant by saying “Other kinds of love don't depend on being constantly fueled they just are.”, that’s why I asked you. I guess you speak for the “unconditional maternal love” and not just for the maternal love. But even that love if not fuelled can be alive. Don’t know .

I think we express and experience love when we are in “contact” with that energy, as you said, through another being or ourselves. Don’t know how we can achieve that when we are “absent” , “away”. When we don’t have access to that energy, as Rodaki said, when we can’t receive or give does love exists for us ?

Btw, I’m pretty aware of your objections about those kind of questions and Yi answers. You have express it many times here and in the past. Its your opinion , and I hear it as it is.


I didn't exactly express an objection , I agreed with Maria 22 and when she made the point that seemed to be okay by you ? Infact to her you said 'maybe' so I thought it okay to continue. I thought the growing consensus that 30.4 was all about the nature of love and not much to do with you personally could mean you missed the point of the answer to you... maybe you wanted to miss it...and I'm aware it sounds like arrogance for me to tell you you missed it, how would I know, its just my opinion thats all. Here I can see what some mean when they say sharing readings means you can lose the answer.


Sometimes people use the maternal image for our relation with the Yi. Sometimes I've popped up and said well that maternal relation isn't always perfect..and then I'm told I'm being too literal. Here could it be you are taking the maternal love analogy thing too literally ?



I think the the thing about love is it goes on and on with or without fuel . How else does someone continue loving someone 30 years after they are dead (depending what you mean by fuel). Lack of prescence or attention doesn't seem to extinguish love. If it did people would suffer alot less heartache than they do.

So my question is if you think love does depend upon fuel, what kind of thing is that fuel ? Do you mean communications, attentions, gifts, kindnesses ? Seems to me all those things can be given and still no love. I've heard it said love doesn't keep accounts, doesn't add up what has been given or not given because it doesn't live in the head but in the heart. If thats the case can givings and receiving really be fuel ? Howcome witholding seems to generate so much of what is commonly known as 'love' (at least in the shared readings area)
 
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maremaria

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So my question is if you think love does depend upon fuel, what kind of thing is that fuel ? Do you mean communications, attentions, gifts, kindnesses ? Seems to me all those things can be given and still no love. I've heard it said love doesn't keep accounts, doesn't add up what has been given or not given because it doesn't live in the head but in the heart. If thats the case can givings and receiving really be fuel ? Howcome witholding seems to generate so much of what is commonly known as 'love' (at least in the shared readings area)

hmm, what can be named as fuel. One's presence ?(and I don't mean just the physical ). Being , with you whole being and meet the other being and as pieces of woods create a fire . something like that maybe...
 
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maremaria

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I didn't exactly express an objection , I agreed with Maria 22 and when she made the point that seemed to be okay by you ? Infact to her you said 'maybe' so I thought it okay to continue. I thought the growing consensus that 30.4 was all about the nature of love and not much to do with you personally could mean you missed the point of the answer to you... maybe you wanted to miss it...and I'm aware it sounds like arrogance for me to tell you you missed it, how would I know, its just my opinion thats all. Here I can see what some mean when they say sharing readings means you can lose the answer.


)

well, as I said to Maria22 : Yes, maybe. But its great to 58 , isn't it ?

there are people here that enjoyed that. Maybe you are not .
 
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meng

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That fire relies on fuel isn't even debatable. If there's any flaw in the analogy, it would be the comparison of fire to love. But that is the association made by Yi, not by anyone who interpreted Maria's reading.
 

rodaki

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hi people!

sorry if that comes as somewhat out of context, but I just found out why the trigrams of hex.15 (earth over mountain reminded me of Gobekli Tepe . .
What follows is a post by Charly from the memorizing thread on hx.33:
(http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=4729&page=2)

The mountain trigram has the shape of a megalithic door (a dolmen) that used to be buried with the outer appearance of a hill with a secret access.

Yours,

Charly

thanks Charly!!

Could that answer the state of Love when it is unseen? the sacred site hidden under the bland but fertile surface of everyday life? Is the Yi two steps ahead of us in this conversation?
:bows:

p.s.:there is a book by sinologist F.Julien called "In Praise of Blandness" where he deals with the importance of this term in Chinese culture starting from Daoist and Confucian traditions . .
(http://books.google.com/books?id=mq...s+julien+in+praise+of+blandness&client=safari)


rodaki
 
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maremaria

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This found me yesterday night

"Agape is both eros and philos. Agape is total love that consumes. The love that consumes makes everything else - absolutely everything - lose its importance. It is the love that consumes the person who experience it. Agape is much more than liking. It is a feeling that suffuses, that fills every spaces in us, and turns our aggression to dust. Whoever knows and experience agape learns that nothing else in the world is important - just love. This is the kind of love that can shook the stars and change the course of history and enables us to accomplish things that kings, armies, and empires could not." - Paulo Coelho

I think it fits with 30.4 > 22

Maria
 

heylise

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I think - but that is just my own think - that hexagrams are not about 'things' or subjects. They are about aspects. So every hexagram is about love, or about stock market, or about fishing, or about politics or about spirit. Depends on your question.

Your question decides what the hexagram is talking about, but the answer is not just for you. It is for everyone who also looks to it wanting to know about the same thing. An answer about love is for everyone about love. But the same hexagram can be about something completely different for another question.

The universe is not chopped up in 64 parts, but all innumerable things in it can be divided in 64 aspects. Or in two, like yin and yang. Or in three, or 4 or 5 and so on. Choose what makes sense for you. Astrology has 12 with lots of subdivisions, the major arcana of Tarot 22. Lots of ways.

LiSe
(Love that horse, Maria! Nice picture)
 
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maremaria

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That is my impression too.

There are times I read other’s posts and I found things for me, about me. Questions and answers pop up from nowhere or from a place I have no name for it. It fells like Yi is talking to me. If someone has experienced that too maybe knows what I try to say.

I don’t believe that love is only what line 30.4 say, but is a part of what love is.
Also an impression. Maybe I’m wrong but maybe not but this is not important.

(That horse is a funny image, I needed something lighter those days :rolleyes:)

Maria
 
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meng

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This found me yesterday night

"Agape is both eros and philos. Agape is total love that consumes. The love that consumes makes everything else - absolutely everything - lose its importance. It is the love that consumes the person who experience it. Agape is much more than liking. It is a feeling that suffuses, that fills every spaces in us, and turns our aggression to dust. Whoever knows and experience agape learns that nothing else in the world is important - just love. This is the kind of love that can shook the stars and change the course of history and enables us to accomplish things that kings, armies, and empires could not." - Paulo Coelho


I think it fits with 30.4 > 22

Maria

That makes me think 55 more than 30.

As for applying line 4 to "what is love", can't deny that it speaks of temporal and therefore conditional love. Agape consumes all love, it doesn't discriminate (like 55). That's why he gets away with a potentially misleading statement like: Agape is both eros and philos. True, agape is all love; but to say Agape is either eros or philos, or both, isn't correct.

It may be possible that love you asked about is a combination of Agape (love for humanity, for instance) and special interest (conditional) love. Maybe you've been sorting out which is which, and how to preserve one, even if the other goes out. Your 6 thread comes to mind.

22, among other things, is the expression of life. Fire illuminates the mountain from below. That sounds like a good image. You can shine your light upon the object of your love, and in a ways which suite you and which you are at ease with. Rather than the kind which flare up, and then dies out.
 

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