What is the Nature of Yi as Encountered in Divination?

[peters]

An observation from ‘kevin’ in the recent post “Stephen Karcher on the Sage-Mind and the I Ching (Collected Excerpts)” prompted the following consideration, addressing the question of “What is Yi”? This is not the first time such a consideration has been raised on this forum, as the following threads demonstrate:

“Whom are we asking questions to when we consult the I Ching?”
[www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/index.php?threads/whom-are-we-asking-questions-to-when-we-consult-the-i-ching.23028/]

“Just what is the I Ching?”
[www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/index.php?threads/just-what-is-the-i-ching.22262/

No doubt what follows is at least as incomplete and tentative and should be taken as such. ‘kevin’ writes:

Whereas a mystic might use a ritual to draw down the ‘Spirits’, Stephen [Karcher] might do a ritual to stimulate the archetypal ‘Spirits within us’.

Yes, this observation cuts directly to the question that always hovers behind any act of or discussion of I Ching divination: “What are we ‘speaking with’ or ‘connecting with’ when we consult Yi?” Many individuals have forwarded many explanations, from the conscious mind ‘reading meaning’ into a truly random process to the voice of ‘God’ [however conceived]. Those probably serve as the endpoints of the spectrum of possibilities, but within those extremes, the two most common constellations of view are a) synchronicity, or b) some ‘spirit-intelligence’ [taken very loosely]. Now, synchronicity as a model of Yi of course goes directly back to Jung, whose influence with regard to Western understanding and use of the I Ching is arguably second only to Wilhelm. Possibly it is greater. Recall that the original German translation of Wilhelm’s work on the I Ching sold only a modest few thousand copies. When Baynes’ English translation eventually came out, with Jung’s foreword, sales picked up and eventually passed a half million copies by the mid-‘80’s. Some of this was the spirit of the times, given the spiritual openness of the ‘60’s, but some of it also was the massive influence of Jung himself.

Now, in a sense, synchronicity was not original to Jung, although its ‘scientific’ expression arguably was. In particular, there are ‘correspondence models’ similar to synchronicity found in earlier Chinese sources wrestling with the same question: “What is Yi?” The Chinese, who were far more open to spirit-based explanations than we are in our modern, secular age, nevertheless expressed an ambiguity and undecidedness on the question. If synchronicity was not, strictly, original to Jung, it was far more amenable an explanation for him to forward to the reading public than a spirit-based one. Keep in mind that, just as Eliade ‘hid’ behind the mask of a phenomenologist, so Jung ‘hid’ behind the mask of a scientist. Jung’s deep secrecy regarding The Red Book is only one of the more evident signs of this. In this sense, a synchronicity-based explanation could be given a suitably scientific justification in a way that a spirit-based one could not. An open question is: has Jung’s original need to remain scientifically respectable skewed the contemporary explanation of Yi toward a synchronicity-based explanation beyond what the evidence supports?

Now, even if we explore or are open to a spirit-based model or explanation of Yi, is such (a) spirit within us or outside of us? Is this even a proper question, given the actual, unknown nature of reality? If we consider the first, that the ‘spirit of Yi’ is within us, we might point to the unconscious, the subconscious, the metaconscious, the supraconscious, the higher phase of soul, the daimon, the Oversoul, the Overself, the Self, the atman, etc… These are, might I suggest, so many words papering over a mystery. If we consider the second, that the ‘spirit of Yi’ is outside of us, then the possibilities become at once more open-ended and ill-defined. Consider Karcher’s translation of The Kuan Yin Oracle, which was traditionally understood as being replied to by Kuan Yin herself, the Bodhisattva of compassion. This offers an analogous model to answering the question of “What is Yi?”

Here, it is worth interjecting a quote from John Blofeld, taken from the introductory section to his I Ching: A New Translation of the Ancient Chinese Text, that ought always to be central to these kinds of considerations: “If you say that the oracle owes its effectiveness to the subconscious of the one who asks the questions, or to the unconscious (which is probably universal and therefore common to all men), or to the One Mind (in the Zen sense), or to God or a God or the Gods, or to the philosopher’s Absolute, I shall be inclined to agree with every one of these suggestions, for I believe that most of all of these terms are imperfect descriptions of a single unknown and unknowable but omnipotent reality.” In other words, the question is a mystery – apparently a self-protecting one – and will likely remain as such.

Nevertheless, I have read widely regarding the accounts and testimonies of those who have written of the character of their encounters with Yi and there are some salient points to draw out of this comparative reading: a) Yi is typically experienced to have a distinct ‘personality’, compassionate, wise, but sometimes blunt and unwilling to ‘suffer fools’; b) this personality is experienced by an individual diviner to be largely consistent over the course of time; c) a similar or broadly identical personality is typically encountered across multiple individual diviners; d) Yi does not simply answer questions ‘as they come’ – like a Magic 8-Ball – but is encountered as capable of carrying on extended dialogues or discussions; e) Yi can be experienced as ‘overriding’ a query to speak to a matter of greater import and, similarly, can call the diviner ‘to task’ in a way that exerts influence over the egoic sense of self.

All of this is summarizing ahead of the presentation of evidence, but insofar as the above broad observations are correct, they tend to point to one kind of ‘model’ of Yi over others, one that accords perhaps most closely to the kind of assumption as to what stands behind the Kuan Yin oracle. In other words, the ‘model’ I would tentatively forward regarding Yi is that there is a singular spirit-intelligence, not (simply) a higher or deeper aspect of the individual diviner, that ‘stands behind’ or has ‘associated itself with’ the ancient Zhouyi oracular text. The oracular text itself is a ‘dead thing’: so many markings on bamboo, so much ink on paper. What makes the oracle ‘speak’ is the spirit behind the text, what has been termed, in a very different context, the ‘angel of the book’. We don’t know how this association or speaking through ‘works’. We don’t know, assuming there is a spirit-intelligence, if it is the same since the first divination records of the ancient Zhou people. We don’t know what, exactly, this spirit-intelligence might be. The analogy to Kuan Yin might suggest a Buddhist angle of interpretation, but the I Ching is far older than Buddhism, nor has Buddhism been central to its tradition of interpretation.

In the end, all we can really know about Yi is what we individually and collectively encounter in the context of divination. The questions that really matter are at once simple and few: “Is Yi wise?” “Is Yi benevolent?” “Is Yi reliable?” If these questions can be answered satisfactorily in the affirmative, the other questions, particularly those regarding its identity and the ‘mechanism’ of how it ‘speaks’ through a casting, become secondary. [This, by the way, was precisely the aim of my recent posting titled “Testimonies re: Noted Individuals with a Long-Established Engagement with Yi” – to present evidence addressing these key questions on the basis of the long experience of multiple diviners of note.] Here, it is also worth recalling the oft-quoted, greatly comforting description from Dazhuan (Great Treatise) II.8 (tr. Richard Rutt):

Going and coming within limits
gives warning without and within,
shedding light on trouble and its causes,
not as a guide or teacher,
but like a parent at one’s side.

As a final coda to this particular reply, I have seen only two instances in my reading of individuals having revealed to them the ‘identity’ of Yi (to whatever degree). It is difficult to know what objective significance to ascribe to them, as both are highly personal. The first is from Carol Anthony, from the chapter “The Sage” in her The Philosophy of the I Ching. It is extended so I won’t quote the entire passage, although I recommend it to you, but the key portion is:

No sooner had this thought occurred than my entire field of vision was taken over by a strong light. After a moment, the light began to recede, pulling up and away, out into the Universe, until it became one of the brightest stars in the whole field of millions of stars. As I pondered this, a verbal explanation began. It said people want and need an image of something if they are to understand it. The first two images represented my fear that the Sage might be someone totally foreign to me, from whom I would ever feel isolated; the third figure—that of Christ—was an image I preferred to have, because of my past training. All, however, were incorrect. The image that was the most correct was that of the bright light, for it represented a highly developed being (the Sage), whose nature is perfected.

The second is from Mack Moore, who posts on Quora, and whose specific posts on the I Ching are worth reading:

“The Sage” is the term the I Ching uses to refer to the power behind the I Ching. Eventually, many years later, the Sage disclosed his identity to me. An identity, perhaps not the only one. I won’t disclose this precisely, as the information seems too personal. So publicly, I continue to refer to him as “the Sage”, though I may use a different name in private. And he promised he would never leave me. I would never again be alone, a thought which strengthened me to move forward in my life journey courageously. Thank you, honored counselor.

I don’t know if the Sage is the same personage for all seekers, or if the I Ching is a device that can be used by various personages to communicate with various seekers. Perhaps each of us contacts their own spirit guide or higher self through the I Ching, or perhaps each of us who uses the I Ching contacts the same personage—I don’t know.

But I do know the Sage cares for me, and gives me auspicious relevant meaningful guidance when I ask for it, even though it is up to me to interpret and follow the advice given, or not. I don’t think the Sage is the Creator, but more like an angel or spirit guide. That isn’t for me to say, but for each seeker to discover for themselves.

I have a very disciplined intellect. The answers received are definitely not random, and I’m not projecting my expectations into them. I am rather receiving answers from someone who has a higher vantage point, and then I’m using free will choice about which parts of the answer to focus upon and apply in my life journey. (And if it were actually my higher self somehow originating the answers, so what?)

[www.quora.com/Are-there-any-long-time-I-Ching-practitioners-like-me-15-years-that-receive-answers-so-precise-that-they-are-shocked-I-just-cant-get-used-to-it-after-all-these-years]

If others have testimonies or references addressing an encounter or unveiling of the ‘identity’ of Yi, I would very much welcome hearing them.

 

[peters]

I recommended in my originating post the postings of Mack Moore on Quora regarding the I Ching. As these are rather difficult to hunt down there, I attach a pdf with these collected posts, which are not without interest.

 

[kevin]

What does curry taste like?

Obviously the only way to really know is to eat some. Reading recipes and other people’s descriptions, no matter how famous a food writer they might be, will never adequately answer the question for the enquirer. And, so it is we all have to eat our various curries to know what curry tastes like.

There is an ancient Chinese tale of a sage who comes before his students and they are drinking tea. He picks up the teapot and begins to pour into an already full cup. The tea flooded the table. "What are you doing?" A student protested. The sage looked at him and said, "Our minds are like the cup. If already full of ideas how can they be filled with new ideas?" So it is that there is a natural tendency to try to conceive of the Yijing in terms of already, and dearly held, paradigms. A Christian raised person might naturally think of Angels and the guiding hand of god as an explanation of the source of Yijings prognostications. A mystic who holds to ideas of spirits and ghosts might believe it to be some great spirit at work. A psychologist might think of it as some device to enable him make plain his deepest hidden thoughts. A modern Western businessman I know sees it as a simple stimulus tool to make him think ‘outside of the box’.

Many years ago I had a discussion with Yijing on this very thing. Yijing suggested that I empty my mind of all preconceptions before continuing to fathom the question of what is Yijing and how does it work. That ‘simple’ task took me a full two years and more of practices. All through this time Yijing positively berated me to continue down this road. I would train my mind out of one set of beliefs only to find another set of beliefs taking hold. The mind hates a vacuum. Even now I need to keep my minds garden weeded. Weeds love to grow in an empty tilth. When I finally gave up on explanatory ideas the Yijing’s voice became so much louder and clearer. The tilled patch was fertile ground for Yijing to grow without the need for additional beliefs and explanations which, like weeds, inhibit its growth, in my heart-mind.

I also pondered the question, "What happens when we divine?" In order to give Yijing a voice we must become articulate with its language. With study we learn what the text is saying to us in different circumstances. We learn different methods which expand the opportunity for Yijing to converse more fully. However, I think, competent answers might be had using just these simple skills with no deep divination process involved. But, if we are able to take the images, both of the words and the images of the trigrams and hexagrams themselves, into our heart-mind, that imaginal almost liminal part of our mind, and allow them to circulate freely, then they cease to be mere images, but can become dynamic actors, playing out the scenes of the changes. Divination done so is like eating curry. No external explanation is required.

Wang Bi (226-49) (Not my favourite scholar) said, "Images are the means to express ideas, and words are the means to explain the images. To yield up ideas completely, there is nothing better than words. The words are generated by the images, thus one can ponder the words and so observe what the images are. The images are generated by ideas, thus one can ponder the images and so what the ideas are. The ideas are yielded up completely by the images, and the images are made explicit by the words. [...] Since these words are the means to explain the images, once one gets the images, he forgets the words, and since images are the means to allow us to concentrate on the ideas, once one get's the ideas, he forgets the images. [...] Getting the ideas is a matter of forgetting the images, and getting the images is in fact a matter of forgetting the words." RJ Smith: 'Fathoming the Cosmos' pp 92-93.

I believe that the art of divination improves with practice and that it is something a lot more than just ‘getting the ideas.’ My experience is that practices like meditation allow me to make the space for the Yijing’s images to circulate and deliver up their ideas. Certainly the Chinese practitioners of old would have engaged in many practices such as contemplation and meditation and too, they would likely have been using more that just Yijing in their divination.
As for synchronicity and other ideas of the ‘machinery’ of Yijing. Throughout the ages many (most?) ancient Yijing academics have held that it is a vehicle to convey the nature of the time and its changes, to the enquirer. Thus, Yijing practice is an act of accessing the ideas of the time which are synchronous to that time in the mundane. Thus they thought of Yijing is a synchronicity device.

Shen Gua (Song Dynasty) wrote, “The ability to respond spiritually and make the truth manifest depends on the person [and is thus particular to that person]… The human mind is by nature spiritually responsive, but since it is unavoidably burdened, one must, in order to gain access to it, use a substitute (yu) something that does not have a mind. The result of divination can only be explained by what makes our spiritual response possible […] In fact anything that can be seen, heard, thought about, or speculated upon, can be used as a substitute for this purpose […] Only with someone able to understand the pattern common to all this can one discuss the spiritual response that makes fore knowledge possible. RJ Smith. ‘Fathoming the Cosmos’ pp 138-139.

 

[peters]

Dear kevin,

What a rich and wonderful reply you have given. It is one of these statements where you realize immediately upon reading that you will have to keep going back to it over time and deepening experience to fully plumb what is being conveyed.

I do agree that it is possible to just live with the mystery and not try to pin it down, and that this might actually be the best way of relating to whatever Yi is. Of course, the mind wishes definitions, answers, solutions but that is no guarantee of their satisfaction – in the words of the Dread Pirate Roberts, “Get used to disappointment.” With that said, I would also note a), that I still think certain tentative conclusions may be extended as I have done on the basis of the available evidence, and b), the ‘model’ one has of what Yi is can make a real difference in practice how one relates to Yi. If one considers Yi to be simply the mind working over and imputing meaning into a random signifier lacking inherent significance, then under such a model, there is little reason to accord Yi any particular respect or regard in a consultation. Alternatively, under a model of Yi being some unknown ‘spirit-intelligence’, there may be considerable reason to do so. Insofar as one’s orientation can impact the efficacy of a consultation, this can have real consequences.

I think in the end, and certainly for me, trying to pin down the question of what Yi is forms part of the larger question of “can I trust Yi?” In the beginning of one’s relationship to Yi, this question is paramount, particularly given the inherent unfamiliarity and mystery. As this relationship progresses and deepens, the answer settles itself on the basis of the built-up experience of one’s consultative interaction. In this regard, I have come across a number of accounts of individuals who at first were highly skeptical with regard to the I Ching but whose repeated consultations over the course of time gradually converted this skepticism to implicit trust in the oracle. I expect this is a journey that every person who encounters the I Ching has to take for him or herself. With that said, hearing of accounts from others more advanced upon their particular journeys with Yi who have come to trust Yi can be helpful, particularly at the early stages.

As for whether the ancient Chinese favored a synchronistic or spirit-based explanation of Yi, I have found Roderick Main’s “Synchronicity and Spirit in the I Ching”, which forms ch.7 in his Revelations of Chance: Synchronicity as Spiritual Experience, to be a valuable reference.

 

[kevin]

Hi Peters

Thank you. I did rather enjoy bringing it together. As you say these are perennial questions and I respect the work you are doing in trying to explicate them.

Some more of my half hewn thoughts and experiences?

I have done positivist experiments on many things surrounding Yijing. One set was on psychic phenomena.

A simple experiment, which I repeated with a number of people, was to induce a light trance in the other person and myself also. Then to instruct them to allow themselves to imagine another place beyond the mundane world. Psychics sometimes refer to 'going to the other side'. I would do the same and ask them to describe what they saw. Broadly speaking they would be see what I was seeing. In one set of experiments I would imagine a red ball and mentally place it behind them. I would ask them to turn around and tell me what they saw. Every time I received an astonished, "I see a glowing red ball on the ground."

So what is happening here?

Does this 'other place exist? Possibly, possibly not.

Could it be that humans are capable of shared thoughts? Possibly.

I abandoned these experiments (which ran off and on for a few years) after I found that because my mind was part of the system being investigated I could not produce any external evidence, or proofs and there was no way of getting past that. All I was able to show was that there was an interpersonal communication which went beyond that of what we would expect from modern science and our everyday experience of the mundane. There have been many experiments in psychology which have pointed toward the idea that thoughts can act like a field on others regardless of distance. So my progress was meager.

More and more my experience of Yijing is that it often tells us the present and not so much the future. This sort of reading explicates the present and gives us a vector into the future. We may or may not actually complete the full journey, but if we take the actions as per the reading then we will be heading in that direction.

In a slightly different way many Confucian schools held that trying to use Yijing for telling the future was positively forbidden. The reason was they did not want to upset the natural order of things and saw Yijing as a means to stay on the path of natural order.

I have done other experiments in regards to 'telling the future' and these were subject to objective testing. Each 'seeing' was written down and I would wait and record when the events occurred. Because they are so personal I will not share them here. What I will say that the level of definition (think picture definition) was about the level of an abstract for a book. Good enough not to be fitted into any series of events as per any wishful thinking. So, for myself I have no doubt that the mundane concept of time is a little waffy. In fact I have come to see time as a necessary thing in order for us to live in the mundane in an ordered causal manner and not to be continuously subject to time paradoxes. The chaos that would ensue!

I would like to touch on the idea of Yijing having a personality. Again I have difficulty with this for myself, but it is an interesting question to explore. I get a very different feel of Yijing depending on the Yijing translation and commentary I am reading. Hillary's, for me, conveys a delightful mixture of intelligent penetrating of the time, compassion and thoughtfulness. Humour too. Other more Confucian works can feel prescriptive and rather finger wagging. So where does the personality lie? In me as seen through my mental blocks, filters and predilections? In the tone and character of the Yijing forged by the authors hand? Or, external as a Yijing persona? Again, not being to remove myself from the system I cannot tell.

I could draw on records of readings and the events that subsequently took place. There are times Yijing has encouraged me to go down a path which led me to difficult and even injurious times. When I subsequently asked Yijing 'Why?' It simply said that I needed to be where I am now and those rather tough experiences were necessary and formative. I have a whole wall hung with Tigers's tails on which I have been encouraged to tread upon! So Yijing is not necessarily a 'saving angel' Perhaps at times a tough Zen Master?

At other times I have had severe warnings about what is to come and, again with hind sight, there were no feasible ways for me to alter that without extreme action which might involve breaking trusts with loved ones. Something I would not wittingly do. Forewarned is not necessarily forearmed, but at least I got to put a tin hat on and mentally prepare for the coming storm.

One quality I can ascribe to Yijing consultation is honesty. I have never found it to mislead or trick me. My experience of working with Tarot is that it yielded a much higher definition of the future, but I caught it tricking me and others, too often. An example of that is, I would do a reading for someone and it would be exceptionally accurate. They would come back for another reading, the same would happen. At some point when they had utter confidence in the readings it would give a reading that they would base their actions on and those actions would lead to an unpleasant life place for them. I saw this enough times to destroy the card deck and walk away. Now, perhaps that was me and not the Tarot, I cannot tell. However in my hands Tarot had a rather dark feel. Yijing has never done this sort of thing for me.

So here I am, an old man, life bitten and limping, tin hat at the ready, hanging on to my smile of optimism, seeking beauty and ever curious. Also seeking to hang on to compassion for others in these increasingly dark times. I do have an empty cup ready to be filled with whatever comes along and another I try to keep filled with a fine China tea. Come on tea pouring sage - bring it on! (cf. previous post)

(Beauty is, for me, an emotion - experiencing the beauty in others, music, the world, or of ideas is a deep pleasure)

I look forward to more of your findings and thoughts. And thank you for stimulating my own.

Warmly

Kevin

 

[peters]

Dear kevin,

Your description of ‘positivist experiments’ with respect to the I Ching is very interesting. As for the possibility of telepathy and thought transference, this is a very well explored area in parapsychological research – as you note – and the clear answer is that, yes, this sort of thing is possible. The ganzfeld experimental literature is probably the first place to look, along with earlier work by J.B. Rhine at Duke.

In this regard, it is rather surprising that there hasn’t been more parapsychological investigation of the I Ching. Of course, parapsychology as a field is ridiculously starved of research funding and there are few active researchers, many doing such work ‘on the side’ from their principal disciplines. I have canvassed the literature fairly well and so far as I know, the only parapsychological researcher to have focused on the I Ching is Lance Storm and his colleagues in Australia. In this general regard, let me mention the view regarding the I Ching that has been most ably forwarded by Jack Balkin in his The Laws of Change: I Ching and the Philosophy of Life. This is a book with much to recommend it, but I want to focus particularly on ch.3, “How the Book of Changes Works”. In a subsection, “Why Does the Book of Changes Seem to Give Relevant Answers to Questions?,” he writes:

The Book of Changes seems to offer relevant answers because of the way that the human mind interacts with three features of the book: its oracular language, its question-and-answer format, and its narrative structure. Any system of divination with these three features would also appear to give relevant answers. Nevertheless, not all such systems would be equally useful or insightful.

Further detail follows. Now, Balkin is very smart and insightful, but I don’t really find his explanation satisfying and convincing. To the contrary, I would note that Balkin, who is a distinguished constitutional law professor at Yale, belongs to a very specific ‘tribe’, that of secular academicians. As such – and I don’t pretend to know his mind – he either has internalized the worldview of his tribe, or requires suitable ‘cover’ that he can present to his tribe to justify his odd side interest in what would be considered so much superstition and nonsense. The philosopher Charles Taylor, in his magisterial A Secular Age, writes of what he terms the “closed immanent frame”, a frame to which academicians are particularly prone:

In general, we have here what Wittgenstein calls a “picture”, a background to our thinking, within whose terms it is carried on, but which is often largely unformulated, and to which we can frequently, just for this reason, imagine no alternative. As he once famously put it, “a picture held us captive.”... Our predicament in the modern West is, therefore, not only characterized by what I have called the immanent frame, which we all more or less share… It also consists of more specific pictures, the immanent frame as “spun” in ways of openness and closure, which are often dominant in certain milieux. This local dominance obviously strengthens their hold as pictures. The spin of closure which is hegemonic in the Academy is a case in point. (p.549)

It is entirely understandable why Balkin has ‘spun’ the view of the I Ching that he has. It is easy, in fact, to be sympathetic to his situation. With that said, it is very interesting to note that he doesn’t cleave as closely to such an explanatory device as one might think, as when he observes:

As noted above, the Book of Changes works by inducing or drawing out connections between the text and the interpreter’s understanding of his or her situation. The questioner constructs an answer through interacting with the text and relevant commentaries. Interpreting the Changes’ ambiguous and evocative text is a highly subjective process; it draws on the questioner’s personal experiences, motivations, and unconscious desires. That is why the book appears to speak directly to the questioner. In fact, the book does not speak. Only the person who consults it speaks. People use the book to talk to themselves, to jostle their unconscious and stimulate their intuitions. The real oracle always lies within.

I would observe in reply that once you bring the unconscious into the explanatory mix, you are no longer dealing with a clean, rational explanation at all, but with something much deeper, ill-defined and mysterious.

Now, this could all be left at that, were it not that Bradford Hatcher and Harmen Mesker, who each have forgotten more about Yijing studies than I will ever know and whose views have to be taken seriously, have on occasion expressed similar views on this forum. However, to the best of my knowledge, they have not defended them in any depth, but rather more in the character of statements in passing. Bradford has, in particular, referenced apophenia and pareidolia in passing as explanatory devices for how meaning might be ‘received’ from an I Ching consultation. I would tend to say to all of this ‘fair enough’. Such a view forms part of a legitimate spectrum of views on ‘how the I Ching works’ and ‘what the I Ching is’, and should be respected and honored as such. I don’t have to agree with it or think it the best explanation to regard it as such.

With that said, and while fully admitting that there is often an interpretive ‘reading into’ or ‘making sense of’ a particular oracular pronouncement, there are many times – too many, I would think – where the I Ching, as it were, ‘puts its finger on the button’ in a direct way requiring no real interpretive effort that speaks uncannily to the situation at hand. It is this kind of experience, repeated over and over again, that has ensured the millennia-old interest in consulting it, not least from someone as perspicacious as Jung, who – one expects – would have considered reference to apophenia and pareidolia as so much ‘explaining away’ of a legitimate phenomenon.

All of the above is by way of bringing the subject back round to ‘positivist experiments’ – parapsychological research – with respect to the I Ching. I suspect it is possible to experimentally determine whether a) Balkin, Bradford and Harmen are right, or b) whether there is something more going on. The key is to recognize that explanation a) assumes that the hexagram and changing lines cast are truly random and that any set is as ‘good as another’, whereas explanation b) assumes that the hexagram and changing lines cast bear particular significance and that they could not simply be swapped out for another without loss of meaning to be subsequentially interpreted by the diviner. Having said this, it is also the case that the structural flexibility allows more than a single set of hexagram and changing lines to adequately address a given situation with similar meaning. A deeply experienced I Ching diviner, who knows all the hexagram and changing line meanings intimately and has encountered them many times, will have a sense as to the range of possibilities and the aptness of a given set of hexagram and changing lines to a given situation. Here, it is worth quoting from Bradford’s The Book of Changes: Yijing Word by Word, Vol.1:

… in all forms of divination, there is a huge difference between the understanding required of a diviner and that required of a simple querent. The diviner needs to be able to understand, and to be fluent in, the entire language of his craft. The querent needs only to try and comprehend what is explained to him about a single phrasing of the language. The astrologer needs to be conversant in all twelve signs of the zodiac, while the querent is only looking at one in twelve of these. The diviner, in other, words is always at least one level higher above the question or questioner. (p.9)

The most promising ‘model’ of a parapsychological study that would be able to sort out between explanations a) and b) above would likely be analogous to the various multiple-blind studies carried out on experienced mediums by Dr. Julie Bieschel and her colleagues at the Windbridge Research Center. I expect in principle that a study could be designed and carried out, provided a) the necessary interest, b) the necessary funding, and c) the cooperation of a suitable group of experienced I Ching diviners. The one caveat is that, as with any multiple-blind study in any discipline, randomization of subjects is an inherent part of study design, specifically to achieve the ‘blinding’ required to remove sources of bias or extraneous information transfer. However, the very nature of how divination such as I Ching ostensibly ‘works’ is that a ‘randomization procedure’ is actually a kind of ‘cut’ allowing for the introduction of meaning. Would the required ‘blinding’ randomization of the study design be able to be separated from the ‘randomization procedure’ of consultation of the oracle? I don’t know.

Now, as to the question of Yi having a ‘personality’, which you raise, I agree that the translation can have a significant effect on how this is received. The ‘words’ of the Zhouyi oracular text are the means through which Yi ‘speaks’ and as the translated words will be different, so this encountered ‘speech’ will be different. However, I don’t think it is only that. Take Hexagram 4, ‘Youthful Folly’ – this is one of those rare instances in which Yi speaks as ‘me’, as Hilary charmingly expressed it in a prior forum post. Now, part of the received sense of personality is that of the language, which is rather chiding in this particular case, but a larger part is the aptness of one’s receipt of this particular hexagram. I have only received it rarely, but when I have, I could objectively see that ‘I had it coming’, so to speak. Jung mentions, similarly, in a private letter:

The experience you had with the I Ching, calling you to order when trying to tempt it a second time also happened to me in 1920 when I first experimented with it. It also gave me a wholesome shock and at the same time it opened wholly new vistas to me. [C.G. Jung, Letters Vol. II, Pages 343-344]

Paul O’Brien, in the preface to his The Visionary I Ching, recalls that his first two consultations of the I Ching – in an immature, skeptical, smart-alecky frame of mind – yielded Hexagram 4 twice in a row. I expect that many others have encountered Hexagram 4 in similar contexts.

I think it eminently possible that whatever Yi is may be ‘singular’ in personality, but nevertheless express this differently to different individuals. This should hardly be surprising as we all do this every day. How one is with one’s spouse is different than with one’s child, one’s neighbors, one’s best friend or one’s boss. Different individuals may have a different relationship with Yi depending, I expect, in large part on who they are. One may have a more relaxed relationship, one may need a ‘firmer hand’, so to speak, etc… You suggest that Yi might be something, at times, like a ‘tough Zen master’. This reminds me of James DeKorne’s description, taken from the preface of his The Gnostic Book of Changes:

The I Ching is a Living Intelligence dwelling in the Objective Psyche: a highly structured mind focused within a larger, more diffuse Mind. One can regard this as either a “fact” or a metaphor for something inexpressible, but objectively that’s how the Oracle presents itself to us. Once the Work has begun, it assumes the personality of a no-nonsense personal guru (similar perhaps to Bodhidharma, the ill-tempered Zen patriarch who brought Buddhism to China). Because of this quasi-adversarial relationship, more often than not one finds oneself in the position of the hapless querent in Hexagram number 4, Youthful Folly: “I do not seek the inexperienced youth, but he seeks me. When he shows the sincerity proper for divination, I instruct him. If he asks two or three times, that is troublesome, and I do not instruct the troublesome.” In Jungian terminology, consultation with the Oracle establishes a unique interface between your conscious ego and unconscious Self. If you are serious about following the Self’s goal of Individuation, you are expected to “do the Work,” which is extremely challenging for anyone who undertakes it seriously.

DeKorne points to a crucial matter, one reflected very much in your own post, namely to what degree can we consider Yi, not just as an oracle willing to address questions, but as a spiritual guide or master to whose guidance we are called to submit to, if we are ourselves wise, for the betterment and maturation of our souls? This was part of what was behind my recent post “49.5 ‘The great man changes like a tiger...’: The Ultimate Aim of Yi with Respect to the Diviner?” I would very much like to see that particular topic be part of a broader conversation on the forum than I have so far seen. The promise is very great, as is the challenge, and such ‘discipleship’ is no guarantee of calm and untroubled times. To gain, in one’s encounter and relationship with Yi, a spiritual guide is a very much greater thing than to gain a source of oracular insight, as significant as that is.

In closing, let me say again how much I appreciate your sharing of your depth of experience with the I Ching. Your observation regarding its ‘honesty’ is something particularly valuable for me to hear.

With warm regards.

P.S. With regard to your final evocation of beauty, I have always taken comfort from Dostoevsky’s statement from his novel The Idiot that “beauty will save the world.” I have always taken this as a kind of saving vision, almost Blakean in its pure perception. May it be so.

 

[kevin]

Hello Peters
As before thank you for another great and thought provoking post.

Though I am generally in agreement with much of what you say I will add some comments.

The Book of Changes seems to offer relevant answers because of the way that the human mind interacts with three features of the book: its oracular language, its question-and-answer format, and its narrative structure. Any system of divination with these three features would also appear to give relevant answers. Nevertheless, not all such systems would be equally useful or insightful.

Chuckles - So they are saying nothing much here. It appears they have looked at what Yijing is and, possibly, just made up an explanation how it might work. This is why I favour first hand experiential research. I have, at different times, used many different ways to access divination. They all work. However each has it's own function. Like different tools for different jobs. Dreaming, for example, can yield up extraordinary information about what is to come over long time periods. I am now toward the end of what I refer to as the 'Sixth Dream'. All of the others have been lived through. We are talking of a thirty year time span here. Yijing is not suited to this work. However Yijiing does enable me to see how and where I can exercise my will in the most constructive way within the changes as they occur, something my dreaming is not so good at. A traditional Chinese 'fortune teller' will use a number of methods when consulted. I had the pleasure of consulting one once. He used the Yijing (at incredible speed) read my hand and studied my face. He may have taken more into account such as the weather, my direction of approach, the position of the planets and such like (they often do these sorts of things). He finally pronounced that I needed to move house, "Go North West", "Where are you from?" I replied, "The NW UK." "Ah, go back to your family and you will thrive." The whole process took under five minutes with no 'interviewing'. I smiled to myself. Because I had already seen that I needed to move to North West London, but I had doubts. And, yes, life picked up very well when I moved.

What am I saying here? There is an tendency for us humans to find things to lean on in times of difficulty. In terms of Yijing it is perhaps comforting to think of it as an external 'guide'. I suspect it is merely a device for us to access some ability within us. This would perhaps explain how there could be such a plethora of different divination systems which all yield practical and applicable results. However my experiences tell me nothing about what processes are actually taking place.

Now, Balkin is very smart and insightful, but I don’t really find his explanation satisfying and convincing. To the contrary, I would note that Balkin, who is a distinguished constitutional law professor at Yale, belongs to a very specific ‘tribe’, that of secular academicians. As such – and I don’t pretend to know his mind – he either has internalized the worldview of his tribe, or requires suitable ‘cover’ that he can present to his tribe to justify his odd side interest in what would be considered so much superstition and nonsense.

Absolutely so. Leaving aside the very great difference between an academic and a diviner, a car mechanic and a driver, there are those 'rules' which proscribe each of us in our chosen worlds. Illustrating your point: Thus it was that Galileo got very close to being executed by the Roman Church for saying things which were not within the Christian Church's paradigm at the time. Post enlightenment Causal Science later became the dominant ideology. God help those who broach the rules. For they will be burned at the stake in the Journals. Now, with particle physics we find that there are relationships between matter, mind and time which seem not to be directly causal in any way we can yet explain. My thoughts are that it will be physicists who will eventually explain the processes of divination, the relationships between mind, matter and time. Until then we have a dominant culture of distrust and disbelief in such things. Adding that it is only quite recently that businesses and bureaucracies have embraced evidence based governance. There is a large cultural lag.

The most promising ‘model’ of a parapsychological study that would be able to sort out between explanations a) and b) above would likely be analogous to the various multiple-blind studies carried out on experienced mediums by Dr. Julie Bieschel and her colleagues at the Windbridge Research Center.

This sort of research can only prove that divination works. It might have purpose insofar that it might help others to accept the idea. For a diviner the only recourse is that of practice and careful observation. Also a willingness to throw out ides which no longer fit experience. So it is I will sit on the riverbank drinking my wine and eating my curry whilst the academics try and decide whether there are such things as curry and wine.

However, I don’t think it is only that. Take Hexagram 4, ‘Youthful Folly’ – this is one of those rare instances in which Yi speaks as ‘me’,

Are you sure? It's certainly the only place where the appended text refers to Yijing in that manner. Could that one line be a reference to a once famous story or quote? We don't know. Hexagram four is about birth and the inexperienced new born, or young. Note the waters coming out (breaking) from under the big lump. (Trigrams water under mountain). And, this follows the creation sequence of the coupling of Qian (Hx.1) and Kun (Hx.2) -> The forming of the 'myriad of things' (Hx.3) and finally the birth (and inexperienced first steps in Hx.4. For me the lines, (added in ?early Han Dynasty Tuan Zhuan) to which you refer smack of a grumpy Confucian teachers take! He aapears to be complaining about someone ariving for their cup to be filled when it is already full of other things. Though it is also fitting to the time under discussion. The glyph for Hx. 4 is of a plant, or of hidden or covered growth. Pregnancy?

I think it eminently possible that whatever Yi is may be ‘singular’ in personality, but nevertheless express this differently to different individuals.

Absolutely so. My comments on the tendency for humans to externalise aside, I remember occasional raging battles on Clarity, often between people who were highly competent, in it's early days. An echo of the raging battles of many Chinese academics/practitioners over the millennia of it's history. It readily becomes apparent that Yijing's voice and the methods used formulate insights change in different ways over time for each of us. And do the differences matter? I think not.

I will end with this one thought. For me Yijing has not only been a divination method, but a training and development tool for that facility within me to see the time. This outcome explicitly stated in the Dazhuan.

Be well, I wish you a great Yijing journey!

Warmly

Kevin

 

[peters]

Dear kevin,

Chuckles - So they are saying nothing much here. It appears they have looked at what Yijing is and, possibly, just made up an explanation how it might work.

I think Balkin, whom you quote above, has made his position clear, but I am retrospectively concerned not to put Bradford and Harmen in a box in which they don’t really fit. What’s prompting this is my very recent discovery of Harmen’s postings on the www.reddit.com/r/iching list, many of which are highly edifying. When he states the following, for instance, it is hard to reconcile with the kind of interpretation Balkin is forwarding:

Assuming that the Yijing can be wrong is a dangerous road to walk. You risk that you blame the oracle instead of your own interpretation while most often the cause of the ‘error’ is in the interpretation. Or when you don’t like the answer you say “The Yijing is probably wrong.” (which BTW was not an uncommon thing to say in ancient China.) Answering your question: no, I have never experienced the Yijing to be wrong. But especially in the early days of Yi study my interpretation was sometimes wrong.

[www.reddit.com/r/iching/comments/barm01/has_anyone_here_had_an_experience_where_the/ekdwsa6/?context=3]

[Replying to: “I think when I’m lost, I don’t know how to interpret it.”] In that case you should ask yourself: how is it possible that I don’t know how to interpret it? The Yi will never give you an answer that you can’t understand, otherwise it would be a stupid oracle. So instead of relying on others’ subjective and limited point of view it is far more rewarding to explore the answer of the Yi, spend time with it and uncover its mystery. You don’t need interpretations. All you need is the motivation and courage to sit with the Yi’s reply to your situation or question.

[www.reddit.com/r/iching/comments/9jnc7b/you_are_blessed_with_an_opportunity_to/e6sujkt/]

This is why I favour first-hand experiential research.

Yes. It reminds me of a highly salient recommendation made by ‘pocossin’ some years back:

If you would dive in…you would learn by direct experience how the I Ching works. Learning divination is like learning to ride a bicycle. Jump on and begin pedaling. Take your falls. Soon you will acquire a sense of balance and a mastery of the bicycle. You will have whole-body knowledge rather than just conceptual knowledge. If you take this leap into the dark, all of your questions about divination would be answered. There is no other way to understand.

[www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/index.php?threads/de-mythologizing-and-de-mystifying-the-i-ching.16262/]

A traditional Chinese ‘fortune teller’ will use a number of methods when consulted. I had the pleasure of consulting one once. …

That’s a fascinating tale!

In terms of Yijing it is perhaps comforting to think of it as an external ‘guide’. I suspect it is merely a device for us to access some ability within us. This would perhaps explain how there could be such a plethora of different divination systems which all yield practical and applicable results. However, my experiences tell me nothing about what processes are actually taking place.

In terms of one’s relationship with Yi, that may prove to be a distinction without a difference. Whether or not Yi as ‘guide’ is ‘external’ or ‘internal’, one’s relationship to Yi as ‘guide’ might be much the same. If I consider Yi as my daimon, residing in some unknown sense ‘internally’, or if I consider Yi as some spirit guide, residing in some unknown sense ‘externally’, my actual way of relating to Yi might not really differ much. In either case, I would look to Yi as a guide and source of guidance.

Post-enlightenment Causal Science later became the dominant ideology. God help those who broach the rules. For they will be burned at the stake in the Journals.

Oh yes. One of the most striking of recent examples occurred when the distinguished philosopher Thomas Nagel published Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False, which resulted in multiple metaphorical stake burnings by his colleagues of the most extreme degree. Step outside of your lane at your peril.

My thoughts are that it will be physicists who will eventually explain the processes of divination, the relationships between mind, matter and time. Until then we have a dominant culture of distrust and disbelief in such things. Adding that it is only quite recently that businesses and bureaucracies have embraced evidence-based governance. There is a large cultural lag.

This reminds me of Terence McKenna’s well-known quote: “The I Ching is not magic; it is science that we don’t understand.” It is also interesting to note physicists who have taken a private or semi-public interest in the I Ching or divination. For instance, Shantena Sabbadini, co-author of the revised Eranos I Ching, was a theoretical physicist earlier in his career, while the late Yoav Ben-Dov, a key reviver of the Tarot de Marseille, was a theoretical physicist and philosopher of physics. I know Hilary has mentioned interacting with several physicists with a keen interest in the I Ching. With that said, I suspect physics as a discipline is moving away from, rather than towards, such a potential understanding. Recall that Pauli conversed extensively with Jung on his synchronicity theory, that Bohr had the Yin-Yang symbol placed on his family coat of arms, that Schrodinger wrote of consciousness as the basis of reality in his What is Life and Other Essays, that Bohm conversed extensively, over many years, with Krishnamurti. Compare that to the later generation, such as Feynman, who had no patience with or respect for philosophy, or Hawking, who forwarded an unfalsifiable, untestable M-Theory as a move to escape the clear teleological implications of cosmic fine-tuning. With that said, certain developments – perhaps most notably Bell’s Theorem and its experimental verifications – open to an understanding of the world as unus mundus, so dear to Jung, which is likely a key underpinning to how the I Ching ‘works’. One can only imagine what Jung would have done to draw out implications from Bell’s Theorem, but I’m certain he would have been fascinated. Alas, he died too soon to learn of it.

This sort of research can only prove that divination works. It might have purpose insofar that it might help others to accept the idea.

Yes, and yes.

Are you sure? It’s certainly the only place where the appended text refers to Yijing in that manner. Could that one line be a reference to a once famous story or quote? We don’t know.

Agreed. We don’t know. Perhaps the careful historical scholarship of Richard Rutt, Stephen Field or others has cast light on this? I haven’t looked.

I will end with this one thought. For me Yijing has not only been a divination method, but a training and development tool for that facility within me to see the time. This outcome explicitly stated in the Dazhuan.

That is very intriguing and encouraging to hear. Again, 49.5: “The great man changes like a tiger...” Perhaps you are, or are becoming, the ‘great man’ (da ren).

Be well, I wish you a great Yijing journey!

Thank you, and thanks once more!

 

[kevin]

Hi

Again, I largely agree with you. I admire you eclecticism and thoughtfulness. Kowtow.

That is very intriguing and encouraging to hear. Again, 49.5: “The great man changes like a tiger...” Perhaps you are, or are becoming, the ‘great man’ (da ren).

Chuckling, no and, I so wanted to get onto that apprenticeship course many moons ago. I was rejected. I was gutted. My greatness had ended before it began.

That didn't deter me, I hung out on the streets near the college dropping in each week to see if there were opportunities on other courses...'Ding Minder', 'Well Digging and Maintenance', 'Organiser of Armies', and more. 'Coupling the Royal Bride' was always oversubscribed, I didn't even try for that one. I even put on a fake limp and had a go at getting onto the 'Ditch Digging and Swamp Draining' course. The course teacher, Lu, had a reputation of making his students work at all hours and right through the holidays. It was a terribly unpopular and difficult course. Yet, even for that I was again turned away as being unsuitable.

After some years of trying I sought an interview with the Principal, to complain that they wouldn't accept me on any courses whatsoever and that I was forced to wander the streets nearby, ever hopeful, but struggling each day as I read my books in rainy shop doorways, doing small jobs for the tips and begging for food when no work was to be had. My belongings were often stolen whilst I slept as well.

I got the interview and I told him of my struggles and of my massive commitment to train. When I stopped he looked at me for a while, as if a little confused. He then said, "But you are subscribed to a course! Every morning I pass you on the way to the college and every evening as I go home I do the same. Each time I check on your progress and each day I mark in the register that you attended."

I just sat and looked at him with my jaw agape. He went on, "Your course is Hx.56 and in two weeks you will graduate and be awarded and Emblem Axe. You will be fully qualified to hang around any place you want, you can even put on a bit of a sagely air if you like, but I wouldn't overdo that one with your training." He sighed and added, "Employment prospects for people who do your course are really not so bright, but good luck, you worked hard."

And, so it was, my endless wandering began.

Best to you

Smiling

Kevin

Note to self: Avoid jobs involving cattle and don't leave candles burning whilst sleeping.

 

[peters]

Dear kevin,

I think Hx.56 is a mandatory course for many if not most of us. 56.4 is one that’s been turning up recently.

Your story reminds me of the quote attributed to Schopenhauer, although I think the phrasing is actually Joseph Campbell’s paraphrase. (I’ve seen the original in Counsels and Maxims or The Wisdom of Life, but can’t put my finger on it right now):

When you look back on your life, it looks as though it were a plot, but when you are into it, it’s a mess: just one surprise after another. Then, later, you see it was perfect.

I encountered this quote when I was a much younger man than I am now, but I wonder if I can see the plot yet – I’m not at all sure.

As for other courses, ‘Well Digging and Maintenance’ is one I find personally appealing. Some time ago, I inquired of Yi, “What manner of livelihood am I best fit for?” and received 48.4.5>32. I’m still sucking the marrow out of that one.

With warm regards and best wishes.

 

[kevin]

Hello Peters

I think Hx.56 is a mandatory course for many if not most of us. 56.4 is one that’s been turning up recently.

I think you are probably correct.

It's the 56.4 warning. Persist and we get our card docked. The Wanderer was sent out from the safety of King Wen in Hx.55 to undertake a task. Out into the night walking on the bare mountain carrying a bright torch (of knowledge and spirit) to light their way. See trigrams Li over Ken. To those back home he/she is a wanderer, but the Wanderer knows that they are on a quest. The stance of the Quester is to keep their inner selves quiet, meditation and focus (inner trigram Ken). This meditative time transforms the Quester and from this stillness of self the Quester will be able to act on the world by expressing their bright spirit and learning. (Li as the outer trigram).

In the first line the Quester first has to break up their ties to their hearth and home. This looks like a calamity to others, but how can one quest when tied?

In the second line, the core of the lower trigram, the Quester acquires a resting place in their inner heart-mind. The home ties are broken, the journey begun and they contemplate on the side of the mountain. The first steps of the quest are within the Quester's self.

At the third line the Quester wants to push forward, but it's too early. Third line alone changing gives Hx.40 Ding. Ding is acting at line three in the inner world, that point at the end of the inner inspiration before the outer manifestation begins. The Ding transformation, that is the transformation of the Quester's inner world, requires time.

At line four the inner preparations are done. The Quester should now travel in the outer mundane world. Line four changing interchanges with Hx.52 Ken, Bound, Keeping Still. They are not setting out, they are stopped. The Emblem Axe was a symbol of the power to govern. (It was a moon shaped axe). Being learned and evolved enough to become one who governs is a danger because taking up such a role is to abandon the quest. The warning is to get questing.

In line 5 The traveler finally finds the sweet spot. They are in the 'quester's groove'. This line alone changing gives Hx.33 Retreat, the questor has retreated from the world and the attractions of line 4. He/she is unentangled. See the trigrams of Qian above Kan in Hx. 33. The lower trigram of Kan is falling and the trigram of Qian rises. They retreat from each other. But the sages inner world is still and the sage basks under the pure inspirational Yang of heaven. This is what the Quester was seeking. Istead of a mere Li light they are now with the full brightness of Yng/Qian/Heaven.

In line 6 the quester goes 'over the top', out of the proper territory of their actions. They loose the wonderful balanced situation of line 5 the great wealth of that time. They loose their cattle. Cattle are wealth. When just line 6 changes we have Hx.62. The Judgement (Tuan Zhuan) with the small bird quietly flying away staying low to remain unseen. It's nest burned up in 56.6.

When you look back on your life, it looks as though it were a plot, but when you are into it, it’s a mess: just one surprise after another. Then, later, you see it was perfect.

Maybe I will see the whole picture when I get to the 63:64 recycling centre. Said wryly, maybe I will even get to cash in some credits and get time off for good behaviour. More likely I will get a repair bill for damage done: Companion's lawsuites for my bad behaviour, burning down inns and 'acquiring' axes that didn't belong to me, bird nest arson too.

48.4.5 <> 32? How very perfect. What a superb instruction.

(<> means exchanges energy with)

May I?

"Persevere at (repairing, developing, making suitable) yourself as a source for others who will come to drink."

Further information is made available by considering each line changing separately (not steps of change, but rather 'what is this particular line change representing'? e.g. non sequential.

48.4 <> 28
To line the well you need to deal with those issues which might lead the walls to collapse (28). The task is to make the walls strong and durable (echoes of 32 here... it must be able to persevere in itself. That is it must be persistent-worthy. So you are not just adding some pretty tiles here.

48.5 <> 46 Looking at trigrams: Wood within the earth (Kun manifesting / making material) A sapling pushing upward through the earth. Drinking at the Well water enables others to grow.

The pair sequence is fun. Hx.47 has an ideogram is of a tree which is confined. It is the stimulus for the manifestation of the Well which manifests (Yin). So feeling confined is like being in a well? By being/accepting 'confined' one can become the well. The tree (of life) confined remade as a bucket in a well.

The nuclear hexagram shows the quality of the energy driving the time of Hx.48. It is Hx.38. Diverging, leaving, addressing small things is all that is required. Small things being addressed is being adaptive. (I generally prefer the trans. of 'diverging', being opposite/opposing works the same, but in English opposing carries the idea of being set against. The trigrams are of the bright flame of knowledge and spirit rising above the lake or marsh - rising out of the masses of the people. It is sufficient just to be the bright flame in order to address this time of change. Small maintenance adjustments aside.

I think you got an offer of a Well contract, including specifications!

Warmly wishing you a good journey.

Kevin

 

[kevin]

Edit warning.

I have just done a major edit to my post above.

 

[peters]

Dear Kevin,

Thank you very much for these continued reflections! I hadn’t thought about Hx.56 in terms of questing and the quest, but of course that makes perfect sense. Two things about the quest: a) I’ve been on it for a very long time, since before I was out of short pants (not that I make any great claims, mind you), b) most people aren’t called to it and have little to no interest in or understanding of it. This reminds me of my most recent casting, said late last evening in a state of considerable frustration (for reasons I won’t go into right now): “For the last time, what do you want of me?” 10.2>25, with changing line (tr. Hilary):

‘Treading the path, smooth and easy.
A hermit’s constancy brings good fortune.’

Is that not the call to the quest in a nutshell (apart from the ‘smooth and easy’ bit)? It is interesting that ‘path’ here is dao, and ‘constancy’ is zhen, which originally meant the act of divination (from Hilary’s Language of Change).

Thank you very much for your detailed interpretation of 48.4.5>32, which is very interesting indeed. I agree, the casting has all the markings of a superb instruction. I have two general points I would like to raise.

First, the question of technique. My own present technique is very basic, deliberately so, and essentially follows that given in the introduction to Hilary’s I Ching: Walking Your Path, Creating Your Future, which is very close to Stephen Karcher’s ‘basic’ method as given in his I Ching: Plain & Simple. Notably: look to the primary hexagram for the general situation, to the changing lines for the specific and most relevant message, and to the relating hexagram for general background as it relates to the querent. This is summarizing a bit from those sources and doesn’t capture all the nuance. I also give primary attention to the translated Zhouyi oracular text, rather than the attending commentary.

What I don’t do is bring in additional techniques such as nuclear hexagrams, relating hexagrams from separate changing lines, steps of change, opposing hexagram, shadow hexagram, etc…, which, for instance, Karcher introduces in the latter part of his introduction to I Ching: Plain & Simple. I also don’t do – although I would like to – the kind of trigram-focused interpretation that Harmen Mesker specializes in, mainly for the reason that, outside of his few videos or his Dutch language I Ching book (which I can’t read), no instruction is on offer, apart from occasional workshops (which I haven’t been able to attend).

Now, my hesitation in folding in additional techniques is: a) the suspicion that reaching for another technique can be like reaching for another translation or commentary to consult, a way of getting out of the essential uncertainty and confusion that an answer from Yi can impose, and b) the concern that by ‘overdetermining’ the information that can be extracted from a consultation, it makes it too easy to ‘read into’ an oracular response rather than taking it as it is given. For instance, the changing lines may be dubious, but ah, the nuclear hexagrams! That sort of thing. What is your view of this general matter?

My second point: By way of example, and in regard to your interpretation of 48.4.5>32, I would be delighted with an “offer of a Well contract”, but – while it is all very encouraging – in concrete terms, I don’t know what to do with it. What is Yi telling me? Write a book? Take up teaching? Become a professional diviner? (This last meant in jest.) I have no ready way of knowing. This is the general problem with consultations of the oracle: too often, there is a lack of what one might call ‘actionable intelligence’.

In the interest of full disclosure, I looked back in my records, and having not quite known what to do with Yi’s reply of 48.4.5>32, I queried shortly thereafter, “I honor and draw great encouragement from your reply, but do not entirely understand its significance. Will you help me to understand it better?” 56.4>52. And there is 56.4 again, which I’d forgotten I had received in reply until I looked it up just now. I didn’t find it particularly helpful then by way of direction, but perhaps you will see something in it, given your prior insights into Hx.56.

All the best and I look forward to your reply.

 

[kevin]

Hello Peter

Oh, dear. I do hope this isn't TMI.

General Forum rules apply - skip wherever possible!

There may be useful bits. I hope so.

Thank you very much for these continued reflections! I hadn’t thought about Hx.56 in terms of questing and the quest, but of course that makes perfect sense. Two things about the quest: a) I’ve been on it for a very long time, since before I was out of short pants (not that I make any great claims, mind you), b) most people aren’t called to it and have little to no interest in or understanding of it. This reminds me of my most recent casting, said late last evening in a state of considerable frustration (for reasons I won’t go into right now): “For the last time, what do you want of me?” 10.2>25, with changing line (tr. Hilary):

‘Treading the path, smooth and easy.
A hermit’s constancy brings good fortune.’

Is that not the call to the quest in a nutshell (apart from the ‘smooth and easy’ bit)? It is interesting that ‘path’ here is dao, and ‘constancy’ is zhen, which originally meant the act of divination (from Hilary’s Language of Change).

Lovely!

The 'Tiger in Hx.10 is Treading / mating with the Tiger. One does not mess with Tigers without expecting quite some change process to take place... not always the ones we seek...I've got the bite marks still.

Here is the tran. line 2 text from S.Karcher's Vega edition:
"Treading Tao, smoothing, smoothing.
Shade people, Trial: Auspicious." (Trial here and in Wilhwelm B. is Zhen - the oracular result)

His commentary is:
"You are treading the Way [of the Tao] This was not the time to come out of hiding. Stay in the shade for no, hidden away. The spirit is there, your time will come."

Hx.25 - Stay disentangled from the world, desires and purpose. Stayin the shadow and be a hermit until the Way opens of itself.

Is this not an amplification of 56.4? Not a time to go out into the world and act?

Yes, I too started very young. Age three... using lucid dreaming which seems to have been hard wired into me. I am very right brained which is a bit of a problem in this left brained world. And, I too would say that it does not make me a 'great one'... I started from a much lower level than many gifted ones, had to self train and spent a lot of time in the slow lane! I expect you have struggled against the head winds of the accepted world too if you started so young.

I dreamed of the Yijing in 1973 and finally met it in 1976. I could finally turn the headlights on properly. Sort of, after a while and they still flicker and go out sometimes. You laugh at the idea of you becoming a diviner. Well apart from the fact you already are (sorry did you miss that? ) I am constantly amazed how even basic divination can help people back onto their path.

First, the question of technique. My own present technique is very basic, deliberately so, and essentially follows that given in the introduction to Hilary’s I Ching: Walking Your Path, Creating Your Future, which is very close to Stephen Karcher’s ‘basic’ method as given in his I Ching: Plain & Simple. Notably: look to the primary hexagram for the general situation, to the changing lines for the specific and most relevant message, and to the relating hexagram for general background as it relates to the querent. This is summarizing a bit from those sources and doesn’t capture all the nuance. I also give primary attention to the translated Zhouyi oracular text, rather than the attending commentary.

That sounds absolutely spot on to me. And, if you are already working like that you are already free flying.

But, remember there is no single Zhou Yi text. The original Zhou Yi text as per the Zhou dynasty was of noses being cut off, taking prisoners and drowning them in sacrificial pits and so forth. The text was heavily redacted in the Han Dynasty and continued to be redacted up until the last great Yijing conference in the 18th Century. And throughout it's history there have been occasional major voices saying, "We need to strip off the accumulated crust of redactions and go back to the Han roots/core. I'm not sure quite which text Hillary is working from, but I find her work to be good to work with.

The second issue is that modern translation scholarship draws on the common uses, in literature, of particular ideograms during that period. This is further complicated by the fact that a given glyph might have had different meanings in different parts of China. This was a problem even back in the Han Dynastic period. By the time the Song period scholars came along they really struggled with translations and developed quite a science of etymology, philology and more. In summary be wary of translations, but we need them.

Having said that I recently read that modern Chinese scholars and serious students of Yijing have a definite preference to the Ritsema-Karcher translation when working in English. It's good at giving glosses of most of the English words for each Chinese glyph. However I prefer the Karcher 2002 version published by Vega as he ironed out a number of things which he felt forced to put in the R&K version whilst effectively being in Ritsema's employment. SK did most of the heavy lifting on it anyway. Both are good and they are very similar.

What I don’t do is bring in additional techniques such as nuclear hexagrams, relating hexagrams from separate changing lines, steps of change, opposing hexagram, shadow hexagram, etc…, which, for instance, Karcher introduces in the latter part of his introduction to I Ching: Plain & Simple. I also don’t do – although I would like to – the kind of trigram-focused interpretation that Harmen Mesker specializes in, mainly for the reason that, outside of his few videos or his Dutch language I Ching book (which I can’t read), no instruction is on offer, apart from occasional workshops (which I haven’t been able to attend).

Chuckles, I am writing a book on using trigram images and first started trying to popularise the method some twenty years ago. I was a little too creative back then though, a little more disciplined now. I wrote about it on this forum back in it's early days. I say this, not to make any claims of my own greatness, because the basic method is already laid out in the Third and Fourth Wings, the Xiang Zhuan , Han Dynasty and which is styled as the "Image" in Willhelm Baines. It is one of the oldest ways of working with Yijing and there is evidence that it was in use in the time of the original Zhou dynasty. It fell into disuse during the long Confucian development. Popping it's head up from time to time.

The method put forward in Wilhelm Baynes, Hillary and Stephen Karcher is based on a latter-day (In Chinese history terms) accepted method. During the Yijing history so many different methods were debated, accepted and rejected only to be accepted again. Nuclear trigrams were in use in the Han Dynasty, yet later they were eschewed and re- accepted a number of times by different scholars. Even changing lines and extended hexagrams (Changing lines +)were rejected during some parts of Yijing's history. Essentially my mantra is 'do what works for you'.

I have given a number of worked examples of working with trigrams in this thread that if you know your Shuo Gua you will be able to work them out for yourself. Just remember that Qian, Li, Zen and Sun are held to have an upward movement in the hexagram and Kun, Kan, Gen and Dui have a downward movement. I gave a demonstration of how that works above. Here is a brief repeat of two of them:

48.5 <> 46 Looking at trigrams: Wood within the earth (Kun manifesting / making material) A sapling pushing upward through the earth. Drinking at the Well water enables others to grow.

and

This line alone changing gives Hx.33 Retreat, the Quester has retreated from the world and the attractions of line 4. He/she is un-entangled. See the trigrams of Qian above Kan in Hx. 33. The lower trigram of Kan is falling and the trigram of Qian rises. They retreat from each other."

But again I say... Do what yields the results that work for you. I am trying to get back to a root that predates the Han Dynasty... Trying to proof a Yijing which is fairly text free. Field belives that the text was added as prompts for diviners, not as a definitive and constraining truth. It is very useful though. I'm doing this just for the fun of it. I am not the first and won't be the last. Though the 1st and 2nd wings, King Wen's Hexagram names and his Judgement are sacrosanct even to me!

If you want a brief trigram work up/explication just message me and post the reading on Clarity. I would be glad to help.

Now, my hesitation in folding in additional techniques is: a) the suspicion that reaching for another technique can be like reaching for another translation or commentary to consult, a way of getting out of the essential uncertainty and confusion that an answer from Yi can impose, and b) the concern that by ‘over determining’ the information that can be extracted from a consultation, it makes it too easy to ‘read into’ an oracular response rather than taking it as it is given. For instance, the changing lines may be dubious, but ah, the nuclear hexagrams! That sort of thing. What is your view of this general matter?

Yes, valid concerns. My experience is that once one feels confident in using the 'basic' methods then other methods open up a development of the reading. The rule of thumb is, for me, "does this fit?" As a diviner, "does it 'light up' with that feeling of correctness?" If not, I don't use it for that reading.

I see it as being like a language. Additional methods give an opportunity of extending the readings complexity and hence the information and insights available. Just like knowing a couple of hundred words and the basic of a language will work on a foreign holiday. However a little more study will allow more nuance and the ability to hear more complex meanings.

I offer my write up of 56.4 as an example. To be accepted, or rejected on this point. And, I would add that those ideas could have been developed much more were I to have used Hexagram Pathways (Crossline Omens). It is a case of how much definition is wanted? (as in picture definition). If a simple method does not hwlp me I use a fuller method, and reflection before doing a second reading.

My second point: By way of example, and in regard to your interpretation of 48.4.5>32, I would be delighted with an “offer of a Well contract”, but – while it is all very encouraging – in concrete terms, I don’t know what to do with it. What is Yi telling me? Write a book? Take up teaching? Become a professional diviner? (This last meant in jest.) I have no ready way of knowing. This is the general problem with consultations of the oracle: too often, there is a lack of what one might call ‘actionable intelligence’.

Yes! Tell me about it! I have (allegorially) traveled all the way to 'Los Getilost' on the other side of the world and Yijing was trying to remind me to got to the corner shop for milk!

Here, if only using Yijing, one could sit and reflect on what ways I have been a Well for others. Also to look at the trajectory of my life and ask where could that take me were I to be a more of a Well. Then to ask the Yijing on each idea. Gradually narrowing it down. My own experience of my life and Yijing is that Yijing does not ask me to be a great Well for others. Or, a great anything really. Sometimes I received 'Well' because Yijing was trying to tell me that I was generally not being pleasant with someone and why should they spend time drinking from my well? The message? Fix myself.

Adding, most often Yijing is like a sign post, for me. Staying with Well, it would often be a heads up to keep my eyes open for a Well type opening, a door which will open.

In the interest of full disclosure, I looked back in my records, and having not quite known what to do with Yi’s reply of 48.4.5>32, I queried shortly thereafter, “I honor and draw great encouragement from your reply, but do not entirely understand its significance. Will you help me to understand it better?” 56.4>52. And there is 56.4 again, which I’d forgotten I had received in reply until I looked it up just now. I didn’t find it particularly helpful then by way of direction, but perhaps you will see something in it, given your prior insights into Hx.56.

No problem, I am honoured you ask. As above 56.4 reinforced by your reading of 10.2 <> 25

I will do 48.4.5 <> 32 tomorrow... For now my cat is of the belief that if I sit in my room in the evening then I will not have hunted down her tea in time for when she descends to feed. She so doesn't get the idea of a tin and harasses me until I go downstairs... Whilst she gets some extra Z's.


You are a remarkably well read person. (More than myself)

Your sincerity and wisdom shine through your words most brightly.

It's a pleasure to converse with you.

Warmly

Kevin

 

[kevin]

Good morning Peters, smiles to you,

A thought. Questions which might give you more sense of what is being indicated:
Where is this change leading?
What can I do to help the change develop?
Where is the changer going to eventually apply in the outer world? (Think of your life vs acting on the world whilst casting).

These questions might give you a sense of scale, amplitude (fetch the milk vs buy a dairy), and place. Thought the Yijing will be tempted to have fun with the last one because one cannot be changed without the other! Yes, I know I eschewed Yijing personality somewhat... I will add 'likes a good joke' to my list.
However, you will have a better sense of the best questions for this purpose.

So Yijing is commenting on 48.4.5 <> 32 with 56.4 <> 52. 'Don't seek a place in the world with this change. Stay still and reflect. Continue your Quest." (See my post above).

Now actually fully awake, I have just seen that I had already written about 48.4.5 <> 32. above. I took it as working on yourself which in my experience is the most common application. A hydrologist working in Africa is likely to have a different take on it though. With that in mind are you involved with any projects or services which others 'draw' upon? Turn it in your heart-mind. By doing so I think you will know the difference.

I do hope this helps a little.

Looking forward to your reply.

Warmly

Kevin

 

[peters]

Dear Kevin,

What a delightful wealth of detail you’ve provided here!

Hx.25 - Stay disentangled from the world, desires and purpose. Stay in the shadow and be a hermit until the Way opens of itself. Is [10.2>25] not an amplification of 56.4? Not a time to go out into the world and act?

Yes, that makes sense. This is, in a way, the perpetual situation of the typical individual on the quest in a larger world in which this is generally neither understood nor valued. You learn very quickly to “stay in the shadow,” as it were.

I dreamed of the Yijing in 1973 and finally met it in 1976. I could finally turn the headlights on properly. Sort of, after a while and they still flicker and go out sometimes. You laugh at the idea of you becoming a diviner. Well apart from the fact you already are (sorry did you miss that?) I am constantly amazed how even basic divination can help people back onto their path.

Your story of encounter reminds me of Stephen Karcher’s account in an online audio interview. In brief, as a young man, he was a war resister during Vietnam and had fled from the US to Canada. One night, he dreamt of walking down a tree-lined street and entering a building full of books, where one book grabbed him by the scruff of the neck. Shortly thereafter, he made his way to Banyen Books in Toronto, recognized the street and building from his dream and, having entered the bookstore and perused about, had a copy of the Wilhelm/Baynes edition fall off the shelf and onto his head. As he said in the interview, “You’re in the army now,” meaning that he understood that he had been, in effect, ‘recruited’ by the I Ching. So much for getting out of the army!

Now, I don’t know if the story has been embroidered with the telling, but this sort of thing does happen. Another account that I know of is David Godman, one of the foremost writers and editors on Ramana Maharshi and his spiritual legacy, who has lived at the Ramana ashram in Tiruvannamalai for decades and has published something like a dozen books. [If you are interested in the topic, he has a delightful set of YouTube videos that I can wholeheartedly recommend: www.youtube.com/channel/UCBcqQGNwcSEwlv6gJXP-U9A] As I recall the tale, as a young man attending uni in the UK, he was perusing the shelves in a local bookstore when Arthur Osborne’s classic, Ramana Maharshi and the Path of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously plopped off a shelf to land at his feet. He took the hint and the rest, as they say, is history.

For myself, my encounter with the I Ching is far more recent and less interesting, but perhaps worth telling nevertheless. I had known of the I Ching for decades, but had never engaged with it as a topic of interest. Having found myself in an increasingly difficult professional situation, I felt the need to, as it were, ‘pragmatize’ aspects of my spiritual quest. Around this time, I purchased a new smartphone and had a very specific idea as to what kind of case I wanted for it. Having scoured the internet, I finally found and ordered a case that fit all requirements, received it, and snapped my new phone into it. All was well. A short while later, I found myself wondering about the small, subtly embossed company logo on the case front. It reminded me of something. That ‘something’, I figured out, was Hx.32. I took that as an interesting potential ‘sign’, but took no action.

Very shortly thereafter, while looking online for something entirely different, I came across a website with the collected articles of Elmer Green, founder of biofeedback research. In perusing his article titles, one jumped out: “The I Ching Effect,” written as a book introduction for a friend [http://journals.sfu.ca/seemj/index.php/seemj/article/viewFile/282/245]. I took the bait, found the pdf, read it, only to find that in Green’s view, the I Ching served as a point of connection to one’s Higher Self. I don’t know if Green was right about that, but the claim, in conjunction with the smartphone case logo, made me take notice and my serious study and engagement with the I Ching proceeded from there.

There is an additional symbolic point here worth mentioning: that Hx.32 should be embossed on a smartphone case is of particular symbolic significance. Many years ago, my wife, as a young woman, was planning to do a long road trip by car with a friend, who had volunteered her car and offered to drive. A couple of days before the scheduled departure, my wife had a vivid dream in which she got into a car accident with a mail truck. She was connected to a community of spiritually-minded friends and, on encouragement from its leading figure, put the dream to the group for help in understanding its possible significance with respect to her impending trip. Among them was someone who did astrology, another who did Tarot and another who consulted the I Ching. Each in turn volunteered to divine and each in turn advised her against taking the trip. She called her friend and cancelled. Her friend went on the trip alone and got into a severe auto accident on the way, the front passenger side of the vehicle being crushed in by the colliding car. The driver survived, but the passenger, had there been one, most likely would not have. When hearing of this outcome, she asked the group’s leader why he had been convinced the dream was significant and worth further inquiry through divination. “Simple.” he said. “In your dream, you were hit by a mail truck!” Mail truck, smartphone – maybe something’s trying to send you a symbolic message?

That sounds absolutely spot on to me. And, if you are already working like that you are already free flying.

That’s very encouraging to hear.

I’m not sure quite which text Hillary is working from, but I find her work to be good to work with.

Ditto.

Having said that I recently read that modern Chinese scholars and serious students of Yijing have a definite preference to the Ritsema-Karcher translation when working in English. It’s good at giving glosses of most of the English words for each Chinese glyph. However, I prefer the Karcher 2002 version published by Vega as he ironed out a number of things which he felt forced to put in the R&K version whilst effectively being in Ritsema’s employment. SK did most of the heavy lifting on it anyway. Both are good and they are very similar.

I have the Ritsema/Sabbadini Eranos I Ching, but not the earlier Ritsema/Karcher. As for the Karcher 2002 Vega edition, this is in softcover. Do you happen do know if this is the same as the Karcher 1995 Barnes & Noble hardcover edition? Given its thickness, hardcover would be preferred. I’ll be happy to acquire, given your recommendation.

Chuckles, I am writing a book on using trigram images and first started trying to popularise the method some twenty years ago. I was a little too creative back then though, a little more disciplined now. I wrote about it on this forum back in its early days. I say this, not to make any claims of my own greatness, because the basic method is already laid out in the Third and Fourth Wings, the Xiang Zhuan, Han Dynasty and which is styled as the “Image” in Wilhelm/Baynes. It is one of the oldest ways of working with Yijing and there is evidence that it was in use in the time of the original Zhou dynasty. It fell into disuse during the long Confucian development. Popping it’s head up from time to time.

My understanding from Harmen’s online writings is that he has been led to trigram-based interpretation through similar historical unearthing. I would be very interested to see your book when it is ready. In a very obscure, buried comment reply on one of his YiTube videos, Harmen notes:

“Q: Could you recommend a book that describes the symbology of trigrams, qualities, hierarchies, etc? As you use it for your interpretation.” Well, there is my Dutch book De I Tjing stap voor stap... Other than that, I really don’t know any books that teach you how to work with trigrams. What comes closest I think is Charles Poncé, The Nature of the I Ching. But he mixes it with some Western ideas that I don't find useful. Nevertheless, I think this book comes closest to a book that teaches you to work with the trigrams. It is published in 1970 and should be available as a used copy for a decent price.

I’ve ordered a copy of Poncé’s book and we shall see. Elsewhere in this forum, Bradford also recommends Poncé’s book, noting, as I recall, that if one is going to have more than 25 I Ching books, it is worth having in one’s collection. High praise from him. Another book, just recently acquired, that also goes into trigram interpretation is Mondo Secter’s The I Ching Handbook, which looks of relevance and interest. I expect Nigel Richmond’s two books – The I Ching Oracle and Language of the Lines – which come highly endorsed by Bradford, may also be of relevance here.

The method put forward in Wilhelm Baynes, Hillary and Stephen Karcher is based on a latter-day (In Chinese history terms) accepted method. During the Yijing history so many different methods were debated, accepted and rejected only to be accepted again. Nuclear trigrams were in use in the Han Dynasty, yet later they were eschewed and re- accepted a number of times by different scholars. Even changing lines and extended hexagrams (Changing lines +) were rejected during some parts of Yijing’s history. Essentially my mantra is ‘do what works for you’.

Harmen notes that there have been many attempts in Chinese history to harmonize the Zhouyi oracular text with the trigrams and lines, but as a general judgment, these have not succeeded well. The former is not simply a commentary on the latter, but the two must somehow be taken as independent. How one harmonizes trigrams and oracular text in interpretation is not at all clear to me at present.

I have given a number of worked examples of working with trigrams in this thread that if you know your Shuo Gua you will be able to work them out for yourself….

Thank you for these and I will do just that.

Allow me here a digression prompted by your reference to ‘worked examples’. This is something that is a) key to learning any body of applied knowledge such as I Ching interpretation, and b) is sorely lacking in the literature of I Ching studies. If, for instance, I wanted to study horary astrology in depth – a topic in which I presently possess more interest than mastery – there are no fewer than three dedicated ‘casebooks’ to be found, with other books including extensive case studies as well. William Lilly’s Christian Astrology, dating from the period of the English Civil War and the granddaddy of all contemporary horary studies, includes numerous case studies – including my personal favorite, the case of “where is my stolen fish?”

This is sadly lacking in practical I Ching studies. What do we have? We have Roderic and Amy M. Sorrell’s I Ching Made Easy, which includes one or two case studies associated with each hexagram. The interpretation is basic, and the translation occasionally at variance with translations I prefer, but it is well worth the exercise of working through the book, taking each question and casting, trying one’s hand at interpretation and then seeing what agreement or difference there is with the interpretation as given in the book. Nevertheless, this book can only take you so far. Another is Diana ffarington Hook’s The I Ching and Its Associations, which includes twenty-five case histories and is considerably more sophisticated in interpretation than the Sorrels. She makes the occasional mysterious interpretive leap, and I still have no idea what translation she is leaning on to get the idea that the ‘fish in the tank’ of 44.2 in case # 3 are ‘dangerous’, but it is well worth working through her cases in a similar manner to that proposed above. Apart from these, the vast majority of books are serious scholarship that doesn’t deal with practical case histories or translations of the I Ching that are content to provide an introduction without case histories. That’s it. If you know of exceptions, please mention. Another book that should be mentioned here is the abridged English translation of the Takashima Ekidan by Takashima Kaemon, a 19th century Japanese I Ching (Eki-kyo) diviner, who includes many examples of divinatory consultations. See the following reviews: www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2018/07/09/yi-in-19th-century-japan/; www.russellcottrell.com/VirtualYarrowStalks/TakashimaEkidan.htm; www.biroco.com/yijing/links.htm [search on the page].

Now, what about online resources for I Ching worked examples? Back in the day when Hilary was doing an online newsletter in the early years of Clarity many moons ago, she offered to do subscribers’ readings. I have collected these from the entire history of that newsletter (Issues 1-74) and attach them to this post in .pdf format – see “Hilary Barrett - Subscribers' Readings from Clarity’s I Ching Newsletter.pdf”. Hilary, even then, was an accomplished Yi diviner and her worked cases make for edifying reading. Another such collection, retrieved from the abyss of time via Internet Archive (aka the Wayback Machine) is Stephen Karcher’s collection of reading examples taken from the now defunct www.greatvessel.com. I have collected these – alas, not all the images were preserved – and attach them to this post in .pdf format – see “Stephen Karcher - Great Vessel Yijing Reading Examples.pdf”. [NB: the file has proven too large to attach to this post, but the reading examples may be found via Internet Archive at www.greatvessel.com.] Both of these collections are, I expect, largely unknown at present, but worthy of attention. What else? There is Hilary’s old Midaughter ‘I Ching Experiences’ website (www.ichingresources.co.uk/hexagrams/index.htm), now largely superseded by Clarity’s ‘Shared Readings’ public forum and WikiWing. That’s all I know of that is of note. Again, if you know of exceptions, please mention. Now, the problem with the readings on both the Midaughter and Clarity sites mentioned above is that the quality of the interpretations on offer is, shall we charitably say, highly variable. What one wants is to learn from the work of an experienced instructor, not just anyone who wanders in and offers an opinion. I have no doubt that there are some highly capable and experienced individuals who have posted at either site, but they are not evident to the uninitiated. I am open to recommendations of specific individuals whose postings on either site are worth paying attention to as worked examples one may usefully learn from.

Having canvassed with some thoroughness the available ‘worked examples’ as appearing in whatever form and format for the interested, intelligent and motivated student of practical I Ching divination, let me reiterate how unacceptably ‘thin reading’ all this makes.

If you want a brief trigram work up/explication just message me and post the reading on Clarity. I would be glad to help.

Let me see how I get on with Poncé, Secter and Richmond, but of course I welcome your invitation!

Yes, valid concerns. My experience is that once one feels confident in using the ‘basic’ methods then other methods open up a development of the reading. The rule of thumb is, for me, “does this fit?” As a diviner, “does it ‘light up’ with that feeling of correctness?” If not, I don’t use it for that reading.

I see it as being like a language. Additional methods give an opportunity of extending the readings complexity and hence the information and insights available. Just like knowing a couple of hundred words and the basic of a language will work on a foreign holiday. However, a little more study will allow more nuance and the ability to hear more complex meanings.

This all seems eminently sensible and I will tentatively extend my methodology accordingly. I think that trigram interpretation, along with line placement interpretation, is likely the best place to begin, although with the proviso that a lot of line placement interpretation, as offered in Wilhelm for example, suffers from a heavy Confucian overlay.

“peters: This is the general problem with consultations of the oracle: too often, there is a lack of what one might call ‘actionable intelligence’.”

Yes! Tell me about it! I have (allegorically) traveled all the way to ‘Los Getilost’ on the other side of the world and Yijing was trying to remind me to go to the corner shop for milk!

Here, if only using Yijing, one could sit and reflect on what ways I have been a Well for others. Also to look at the trajectory of my life and ask where could that take me were I to be a more of a Well. Then to ask the Yijing on each idea. Gradually narrowing it down. My own experience of my life and Yijing is that Yijing does not ask me to be a great Well for others. Or, a great anything really. Sometimes I received ‘Well’ because Yijing was trying to tell me that I was generally not being pleasant with someone and why should they spend time drinking from my well? The message? Fix myself.

Good point. Keep querying the oracle to narrow it down. One wishes it were not all so onerous and hedged with uncertainty, but its still far better than simply wandering in the dark.

I will do 48.4.5 <> 32 tomorrow... For now, my cat is of the belief that if I sit in my room in the evening then I will not have hunted down her tea in time for when she descends to feed. She so doesn’t get the idea of a tin and harasses me until I go downstairs... Whilst she gets some extra Z’s.

You have a tea-drinking – or possibly tea-eating – cat? How interesting!

With warm regards,

Peter

 

[peters]

Dear Kevin,

Thank you for these additional reflections.

Questions which might give you more sense of what is being indicated:
Where is this change leading?
What can I do to help the change develop?
Where is the change going to eventually apply in the outer world? (Think of your life vs acting on the world whilst casting).

Good ideas all. I’ll work them into my consultations as I go.

So Yijing is commenting on 48.4.5 <> 32 with 56.4 <> 52. ‘Don’t seek a place in the world with this change. Stay still and reflect. Continue your Quest.”

Yes, in particular, 48.4:

Well is being lined,
No mistake.

and 56.4:

Traveller in a place to stay,
Gains property and an axe.
My heart is not glad.

both seem to point to an ongoing journey or process of maturation.

I do hope this helps a little.

Very much so, not least for the company along the way.

All the best,

Peter

 

[kevin]

Hello Peters

I'm glad something there was of use.

Now, I don’t know if the story has been embroidered with the telling, but this sort of thing does happen. Another account that I know of is David Godman, one of the foremost writers and editors on Ramana Maharshi and his spiritual legacy, who has lived at the Ramana ashram in Tiruvannamalai for decades and has published something like a dozen books. [If you are interested in the topic, he has a delightful set of YouTube videos that I can wholeheartedly recommend: www.youtube.com/channel/UCBcqQGNwcSEwlv6gJXP-U9A] As I recall the tale, as a young man attending uni in the UK, he was perusing the shelves in a local bookstore when Arthur Osborne’s classic, Ramana Maharshi and the Path of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously plopped off a shelf to land at his feet. He took the hint and the rest, as they say, is history.

No, I believe it wasn't embroidered. His synchronicity was often at the point of: If he stepped into a road without looking the hard braking car would be someone living nearby his next desiation and they would take him there.

Thanks for the lead, but I am already at the Water Hole of choice... and being overworked by it too!

For myself, my encounter with the I Ching is far more recent and less interesting, but perhaps worth telling nevertheless. I had known of the I Ching for decades, but had never engaged with it as a topic of interest. Having found myself in an increasingly difficult professional situation, I felt the need to, as it were, ‘pragmatize’ aspects of my spiritual quest. Around this time, I purchased a new smartphone and had a very specific idea as to what kind of case I wanted for it. Having scoured the internet, I finally found and ordered a case that fit all requirements, received it, and snapped my new phone into it. All was well. A short while later, I found myself wondering about the small, subtly embossed company logo on the case front. It reminded me of something. That ‘something’, I figured out, was Hx.32. I took that as an interesting potential ‘sign’, but took no action.

So it did a Hx.32 on you... It warned you... LOL - 'I am persevering'. You must have been a tough nut. Yes, mail trucks and phones indeed. Laughing here.

There is an additional symbolic point here worth mentioning: that Hx.32 should be embossed on a smartphone case is of particular symbolic significance. Many years ago, my wife, as a young woman, was planning to do a long road trip by car with a friend, who had volunteered her car and offered to drive. A couple of days before the scheduled departure, my wife had a vivid dream in which she got into a car accident with a mail truck. She was connected to a community of spiritually-minded friends and, on encouragement from its leading figure, put the dream to the group for help in understanding its possible significance with respect to her impending trip. Among them was someone who did astrology, another who did Tarot and another who consulted the I Ching. Each in turn volunteered to divine and each in turn advised her against taking the trip. She called her friend and cancelled. Her friend went on the trip alone and got into a severe auto accident on the way, the front passenger side of the vehicle being crushed in by the colliding car. The driver survived, but the passenger, had there been one, most likely would not have. When hearing of this outcome, she asked the group’s leader why he had been convinced the dream was significant and worth further inquiry through divination. “Simple.” he said. “In your dream, you were hit by a mail truck!” Mail truck, smartphone – maybe something’s trying to send you a symbolic message?

Yes, as above... I'm glad you got the link. A great dream example.

Dreams are our portable link to the 'unseen' moving and reflecting the mundane. As I have said before, active dreaming is a useful practice.

I have the Ritsema/Sabbadini Eranos I Ching, but not the earlier Ritsema/Karcher. As for the Karcher 2002 Vega edition, this is in softcover. Do you happen do know if this is the same as the Karcher 1995 Barnes & Noble hardcover edition? Given its thickness, hardcover would be preferred. I’ll be happy to acquire, given your recommendation.

The Karcher version is better. Ritsema was a Jungian analyst and academic, not a Yijing scholar. He had collected his Yijing ideas in a card system and insisted that many be included. SK had studied Yijing professionally and he was employed to produce the Eranos Yijing. The idea of the Eranos Yijing was to be a more up to date version including modern scholarship to replace the Wilhelm Baynes that most 'Jungian's relied upon. In the Vega addition SK sorted it out a little and he dumped some of the unsopund material.

Risema then got Sabadini involved to try to do better. Sabadini was not a Yijing schollar either... The Sabadini book is a confused mess, regularly taking flights of fancy.

The Ritsema Karcher is OK though, my preference was to switch to the Vega edition and I had it hard bound. Most University towns have a book binder or three for the Students Dissertations.

I expect Nigel Richmond’s two books – The I Ching Oracle and Language of the Lines – which come highly endorsed by Bradford, may also be of relevance here.

I think Nigel Richmonds work is deeply flawed. Right at the beginning he defines Yin and Yang and he produces something completely not of Yijing origin.
Here are some bits:
'Yang is: whole, complete, it is stillness, non doing, tranquil. It observes. It is the seed.'

'Yin is divided, active etc'

This does not relate to the Shuo Gua or the Dazhuan idea of the two. He conflates the broken and unbroken lines with wholeness and being intrinsically divided. Yang is actually the bright spark, inspiration, the sperm for the egg unable to be anything on its own. Yin is the egg, the seed (Not Yang as Richmond would have it), unable to complete anything without the Yang inspiration, but when stimulated by Yang it is able to manifest everything. If anything Yin is the stillness and Yang the active spark.

However, stillness is not found in Yijing until one considers the hexagrams. Kan is one place where the Yang line moving upwards leaves the Yin lines, moving downwards, unstimulated, unable to 'produce'. This is Yijing thinking. Richmond builds his ideas on mis-founded imaginings. He also fails to see the trigrams as resonating at different levels. The mundane, the Social and psychological and the metaphysical. The symbolism subtly shifts for each. They are different octaves.

I would strongly suggest that you read the Dazhuan and the Shuo Gua before reading Richmond.

Harmen notes that there have been many attempts in Chinese history to harmonize the Zhouyi oracular text with the trigrams and lines, but as a general judgment, these have not succeeded well. The former is not simply a commentary on the latter, but the two must somehow be taken as independent. How one harmonizes trigrams and oracular text in interpretation is not at all clear to me at present.

You raise an important point. Yijing existed before there was any text. It was merely Trigrams and Hexagrams, perhaps with some diviners notes which would likely vary between the different diviners. King Wen is then believed to have added the Hexagram names and his 'Jundgement and later his son added the line images (words). Stephen Field (Duke of Zhou Changes) was of the opinion that the Duke Zhous texts were added as a prompt for diviners and readers. I can't see that they could be anything else really. They were added later. I agree with Harmen. Both produce their own images and the words, being more limited, cannot allow for the same depth and breadth of the Hexagram and Trigram images. This was well recognised by many key Chinese Scholars throughout time.

Additionally, Academic study is not divination. Academia seeks coherence. Even if it is the cohence of teasing out the different strands. Yijing has within it remnants of older oracular systems. Observing Geese, Observing the hamsters in the grain barn and others. The sequence is a perfect sequence with some hexagrams deliberately displaced. Why deliberately? Because any person who could get the sequence so close to perfect would have completed the task. More, Yijing was not 'made' as an item, it emerged with parts being added and redacted. It was not made by a modern system oriented mind with inputs and logical outputs.

In a divination state the diviner can easily move around the sometimes disjointed images and allow them to coalesce into a coherent whole. "The cracks are where the light gets in." (Leonard Cohen)

And, so it is we have two horses to ride, but it helps not to try to ride them both at the same time.

Allow me here a digression prompted by your reference to ‘worked examples’. This is something that is a) key to learning any body of applied knowledge such as I Ching interpretation, and b) is sorely lacking in the literature of I Ching studies.

Yes, and that is problematic. As you say elsewhere there are also issues with the quality of the diviner giving examples. Sometimes they have a poor grasp of the material at other times they make errors which someone with a formal foundation from a good source of training would not make. Though I use Yijing slightly differently from Hillary B and though I would choose some single words different from her for some characters and more, her training is well founded, it’s based on years of being a diviner and many years of reading. I think it’s very sound indeed. There is no single way of using Yijing. Her approach is well rooted and sound in its conception. From that foundation one can safely extend and develop different emphases.

Diana ffarington Hook’s The I Ching and Its Associations, which includes twenty-five case histories and is considerably more sophisticated in interpretation than the Sorrels.
Ah, dear Diana F! She get’s very creative at times. I suspect she was a superb diviner. Certainly there is no evidence for danger in 44.2 <> 15 though.

is Stephen Karcher’s collection of reading examples taken from the now defunct www.greatvessel.com.

Yes, a great resource. Chuckles, did you check the about?

All of the papers are now at https://ichinglivingchange.org/ Not the readings though.

Midaughter and Clarity sites mentioned above is that the quality of the interpretations on offer is, shall we charitably say, highly variable.

Yes and, best be charitable. But, it is not only the forums. So many books have been written by folk who have little study, or flawed ideas and which are utter trash. I suppose the answer would be to have a standardised accepted course. God, forbid! The Sorrel's book seems to have passed muster with Stephen Marshall, no mean feat. Hillary’s I Ching and Stephen Karcher's I Ching Plain and Simple are about the best available and both are grounded in good research and experience. (I have never seen the Sorrel’s work).

with the proviso that a lot of line placement interpretation, as offered in Wilhelm for example, suffers from a heavy Confucian overlay.

I think so. The Confucians adopted and then adapted Yijing to their own political and social needs. They were trying to re-establish social stability after a few hundred years of civil war. Confucian academics over an extended period used it as a means to further their doctrine and to teach moral conduct, some revered ones even eschewing divination. They had eased up a little by the time of the last great redaction in the 18th Century. I try to stay with the Han Dynasty material. You will find the Ritsema Karcher, or Karcher, most refreshing.

You have a tea-drinking – or possibly tea-eating – cat? How interesting!

Very good – that had me laughing!

Thank you, as always, for a thought provoking and enjoyable post.

Wishing you the best

Warmly

Kevin S

 

[peters]

Dear Kevin,

No, I believe it wasn’t embroidered. His synchronicity was often at the point of: If he stepped into a road without looking the hard-braking car would be someone living nearby his next destination and they would take him there.

That’s remarkable!

Thanks for the lead, but I am already at the Water Hole of choice... and being overworked by it too!

I perfectly understand. Ars longa, vita brevis.

So it did a Hx.32 on you... It warned you... LOL - ‘I am persevering’. You must have been a tough nut. Yes, mail trucks and phones indeed. Laughing here.

Yi got my attention in the end. I think it would be very interesting to have a thread on Clarity of how various individuals first came to a personal engagement with the I Ching. I’m sure that for many it was some sort of personal connection – a friend’s introduction, etc… – but it would be interesting to learn of other means by which people become involved. The interesting point in this latter broad category is that an individual must often be initially open to unsolicited omens or signs in order to get his or her attention, as was the case with myself.

The Karcher version is better. Ritsema was a Jungian analyst and academic, not a Yijing scholar. He had collected his Yijing ideas in a card system and insisted that many be included. SK had studied Yijing professionally and he was employed to produce the Eranos Yijing. The idea of the Eranos Yijing was to be a more up to date version including modern scholarship to replace the Wilhelm/Baynes that most ‘Jungian’s relied upon. In the Vega addition SK sorted it out a little and he dumped some of the unsound material.

Risema then got Sabadini involved to try to do better. Sabadini was not a Yijing scholar either... The Sabadini book is a confused mess, regularly taking flights of fancy.

The Ritsema Karcher is OK though, my preference was to switch to the Vega edition and I had it hard bound. Most University towns have a book binder or three for the Students Dissertations.

The following, www.biroco.com/yijing/ritsema.htm, confirms that Karcher 2002 Vega edition cannot be the same as the Karcher 1995 Barnes & Noble hardcover edition, given the editorial time difference noted there in the quote from Karcher. I have taken your advice and have just placed an order for a mint used copy of the Vega edition.

I think Nigel Richmond’s work is deeply flawed. …

Noted, and I will handle accordingly, despite Bradford’s recommendation. This is the problem – a point that Bradford brings up somewhere – that it is not enough to know what books to read, it is also important to know what books not to read. This would appear to be especially the case with regards to the I Ching literature.

I would strongly suggest that you read the Dazhuan and the Shuo Gua before reading Richmond.

Noted. Can you recommend a translation?

You raise an important point. Yijing existed before there was any text. It was merely Trigrams and Hexagrams, perhaps with some diviners notes which would likely vary between the different diviners. King Wen is then believed to have added the Hexagram names and his ‘Judgment and later his son added the line images (words). Stephen Field (Duke of Zhou Changes) was of the opinion that the Duke Zhou’s texts were added as a prompt for diviners and readers. I can’t see that they could be anything else really. They were added later. I agree with Harmen. Both produce their own images and the words, being more limited, cannot allow for the same depth and breadth of the Hexagram and Trigram images. This was well recognised by many key Chinese Scholars throughout time.
…
In a divination state the diviner can easily move around the sometimes disjointed images and allow them to coalesce into a coherent whole. “The cracks are where the light gets in.” (Leonard Cohen)

And, so it is we have two horses to ride, but it helps not to try to ride them both at the same time.

It is interesting that Harmen, with his trigram focus, claims to rarely look at the oracular text, just as many diviners (including myself presently) look at the oracular text but rarely look at trigrams or line placements. I have seen both done in a single reading – Hook does so, for instance – but I need to see more worked examples to become secure in the method.

Yes, and that is problematic. As you say elsewhere there are also issues with the quality of the diviner giving examples. Sometimes they have a poor grasp of the material, at other times they make errors which someone with a formal foundation from a good source of training would not make. Though I use Yijing slightly differently from Hilary B and though I would choose some single words different from her for some characters and more, her training is well founded, it’s based on years of being a diviner and many years of reading. I think it’s very sound indeed. There is no single way of using Yijing. Her approach is well rooted and sound in its conception. From that foundation one can safely extend and develop different emphases.

Very good to hear. Bordering on imprimatur. Or at the very least, nihil obstat.

All of the papers are now at https://ichinglivingchange.org/ Not the readings though.

True about the readings not being there, but also some of his very valuable articles have dead links. Specifically, those on https://ichinglivingchange.org/room-yijing-papers-the-foundations/:

“Oracle’s Contexts: Gods, Dreams, Shadow, Language”
“Making Spirits Bright: Divination and the Daimonic Image”
“The Yijing and the Ethic of the Image”
“Which Way I Fly is Hell: Divination and the Shadow of the West”
“Entering the Ghost River: The World of Change”
“One Yin, One Yang, That’s Dao”

I emailed Stephen Karcher a month ago, but never received a reply and the links are still dead. Do you happen to have any of these?

Yes and, best be charitable. But, it is not only the forums. So many books have been written by folk who have little study, or flawed ideas and which are utter trash. I suppose the answer would be to have a standardised accepted course. God, forbid! The Sorrel’s book seems to have passed muster with Stephen Marshall, no mean feat. Hillary’s I Ching and Stephen Karcher’s I Ching Plain and Simple are about the best available and both are grounded in good research and experience. (I have never seen the Sorrel’s work).

I had independently gravitated to Hilary’s I Ching: Walking Your Path, Creating Your Future and Karcher’s I Ching: Plain & Simple as well and treat them as my go-to resources, along with Hilary’s Language of Change, for practical consultation. It’s good to hear your confirmation.

As for the Sorrels’ book, as I have the e-copy, here’s an example reading, chosen at random, to give you a flavor of their work:

A REAL-LIFE ADVENTURE
Loyalty and Authority
This is a story about being appointed to a position of authority by the person in control, without being voted in by the other members of the group. This happened in a university, but it could just as easily have happened in any group situation. Susanne felt she was capable of taking on the responsibility, but she wanted the agreement of her peers. Her purpose was to study and learn, not to play power politics.
Q Is it correct for me to accept this position?
A Susanne received Hexagram 7, with line 3 moving.
Hexagram 7 deals with personal integrity. Who you are with yourself, and how that relates to the common good. Line 3 indicates conflict, and whether to handle it or have nothing to do with it. There were many potential conflicts, as in any group. The basic one here was the individual versus the authority, the eternal conflict between the I and the We. If Susanne accepted the position, would she be violating her integrity? Perpetual food for discord. But could she pass up the opportunity for some of that great personal power? She chose to continue to be a student, and not become embroiled in the internal politics of the group. She refused the appointment. This was her way of maintaining integrity and avoiding conflict.

I try to stay with the Han Dynasty material. You will find the Ritsema Karcher, or Karcher, most refreshing.

Looking forward to it.

Very good – that had me laughing!

And my very best to your cat. Do you know the poem “Pangur Bán” (The Monk and His Cat)? The poem, written in Old Irish, was found in the margins of an illuminated manuscript in The Monastery of St Paul, Carinthia, Austria. It seems to have been written by an Irish monk, sometime around the ninth century. A good translation may be found here: www.fisheaters.com/pangurban.html

Thank you, as always, for a thought provoking and enjoyable post.

Ditto.

Let me close by bringing in a statement you made earlier in the thread: “I am constantly amazed how even basic divination can help people back onto their path.” Can you enlarge on that, with examples if possible?

All best regards,

Peter

 

[peters]

Dear Kevin,

I have posted a rather long methodological analysis (broken into two separate posts) in the general “Exploring Divination” section, rather than here, given a) its length and b) its topical distinctness from the present thread. With that said, I hope you may find it of interest and be prompted to reply in due course.

Best,

Peter

 

[kevin]

Hello Peters

I would strongly suggest that you read the Dazhuan and the Shuo Gua before reading Richmond.

Noted. Can you recommend a translation?

Shuo Gua - There is one in Wilhelm Baynes Book II and a Dazuan too.

Dazuan - Stephen Karcher's 'Ta Chuan' it has some exoplanetary chapters too and it was well reviewed. A lovely read.

More Shuo Gua. Hillary Barrett in her paid for section. Also, there is a good, but reduced chapter on Trigrams in the Vega edition. The other thing to do, in order to gain insight to the trigrams, is to study those hexagrams which are doubled trigrams... In a good translation.

It is interesting that Harmen, with his trigram focus, claims to rarely look at the oracular text, just as many diviners (including myself presently) look at the oracular text but rarely look at trigrams or line placements. I have seen both done in a single reading – Hook does so, for instance – but I need to see more worked examples to become secure in the method.

Wise. This is a way to do it. Take a hexagram. Read the Judgement and imagine the trigrams interacting. Those that rise and those that fall is crucial here. Let's take Hx.45 Gathering Together. Dui above Kun.
The Judgement:
Gathering together Success
The King Approaches his Temple.

To be honest we don't really need the Judgement, but it's an old layer so why not.
The Judgement gives us the overall augury, "Success". I guess the King at his temple is gathering together with others and gathering the Ancestor Spirits too... Whatever.

So, we have Dui, the Lake, the water gathered together on the Earth.
Dui are the people of the market place, gathering to gossip, buy and sell.
Dui is the joyous dancers and song at the great feast day's.
Dui is the fertile marshland, where rice can grow and fish be caught.
Dui is the misty marshland where things 'gather into view' out of the mists.

Kun is the principal energy of manifesting things, from the making of tools to the rice that grows. It is the energy bringing things into form. Kun needs the spark of Creative, Qian to function just as the spark of Qian needs Kun to make things take form.

The direction of movement in a hexagram is bottom to top.
The lower trigram is often ones inner world, or when relevant to the outer world it is what has not come into 'form' yet. It is still an'inspiration' or idea. (Yang).
First line is often the beginning of an idea.


The middle line of the lower trigram is where it circulates and becomes developed.

The top line of the lower trigram is where is is fully formed and is about to move to the outer trigram of manifesting in the outer world, or in psychological perspective, fully conscious.

The bottom line of the outer trigram is the first step of taking form. Often difficult and much can go wrong until it is established.
The 5th line (middle line of the upper trigram ) is where the energy, material, person in their position, is centred and correct. Fully formed, at the zenith.

The top line is where the time or development is beginning to fade, it is overripe. For people though it can be the experienced old sage, the consultant etc.

The direction of Dui is descending.
The direction of Kun id descending.
So they are descending together, not pulling apart or moving into each other. They are in tune as it were. Holding Together.

Mundane Level - Things are brought together. Flocks are brought together... whatever is pertinent to the question. We think of the gathering waters of the lake.

Social Psychological level. People gathering together, joy and song, sharing news. Harmony. Keeping it together.

Spiritual - seeing through the mists of the marsh, song rising the heavens. Thoughts and ideas gathering together and rising to the heavens.

So here we have the 'idea/stimulus' of manifestation in the lower trigram which manifests in the outer world as joy, song, social gathering etc

First line changes to give lower trigram of Zhen - Thunder and shake. Now we have thunder beneath the marsh. Thunderous change in ones inner world, or radical things coming together in the not yet formed time in the mundane world. So the time that is just beginning is one where radical ideas and events will bring about a fertile time (marsh) of joy etc. It is a surprise that will lead to the gathering etc. Just turn the images in your mind whilst holding the question there too. It will take an appropriate shape.

When this line changes it gives us Hx. 17 Following. Hidden things shaking up the lake, refreshing it with the new... revolutionizing.

I won't do all six lines... working like this and comparing your results to what the text gives you will enable you to see how it works and by seeing how the time develops in the real you will develop skills and insights.

I emailed Stephen Karcher a month ago, but never received a reply and the links are still dead. Do you happen to have any of these?

Yes, Stephen has retired and gone off grid. He is literally doing the 'Chop wood, carry water' Thing.

Four

Zen is a branch of Buddhism that came about in China during the 6th century. So it has been around for a little while. Many of the teachings and quo

lifehacker.com

A REAL-LIFE ADVENTURE
Loyalty and Authority
This is a story about being appointed to a position of authority by the person in control, without being voted in by the other members of the group. This happened in a university, but it could just as easily have happened in any group situation. Susanne felt she was capable of taking on the responsibility, but she wanted the agreement of her peers. Her purpose was to study and learn, not to play power politics.
Q Is it correct for me to accept this position?
A Susanne received Hexagram 7, with line 3 moving.
Hexagram 7 deals with personal integrity. Who you are with yourself, and how that relates to the common good. Line 3 indicates conflict, and whether to handle it or have nothing to do with it. There were many potential conflicts, as in any group. The basic one here was the individual versus the authority, the eternal conflict between the I and the We. If Susanne accepted the position, would she be violating her integrity? Perpetual food for discord. But could she pass up the opportunity for some of that great personal power? She chose to continue to be a student, and not become embroiled in the internal politics of the group. She refused the appointment. This was her way of maintaining integrity and avoiding conflict.

You haven't given me their text, only how they have applied it in an example. The #1 error made when folk produce a simplified Yijing is that of giving the Hexagrams a very specific focus. Stephen and Hillary did not make this error. You can judge for yourself whether they did. The Yijing needs to allow doubt about what is meant... It is that which makes the reader activate their heart-mind and penetrate the Change at hand.

And my very best to your cat. Do you know the poem “Pangur Bán”

Thank you, I adored the whole page - What a delight!

Be well

Kevin

PS - Be wary of some of the chosen hexagram names in the Vega edition... Some of them are a bit odd... like having 'Ground' for Xun... totally weird... Suspect not much change was permissible.

 

[peters]

Dear Kevin,

Thank you for the Dazhuan and Shuo Gua recommendations. Wilhelm/Baynes of course I own. Steve Moore’s review of Karcher’s ‘Ta Chuan’, I note, is generally favorable: [www.biroco.com/yijing/tachuan.htm] I’ll add it to the acquisition list.

Also, there is a good, but reduced chapter on Trigrams in the Vega edition. The other thing to do, in order to gain insight to the trigrams, is to study those hexagrams which are doubled trigrams... In a good translation.

Duly noted and thanks.

Wise. This is a way to do it. Take a hexagram. Read the Judgement and imagine the trigrams interacting. Those that rise and those that fall is crucial here. Let’s take Hx.45 Gathering Together. Dui above Kun. …

This is extremely helpful to see. Thank you!

Yes, Stephen has retired and gone off grid. He is literally doing the ‘Chop wood, carry water’ Thing.

Well, that certainly explains the radio silence.

You haven’t given me their text, only how they have applied it in an example. The #1 error made when folk produce a simplified Yijing is that of giving the Hexagrams a very specific focus. Stephen and Hillary did not make this error. You can judge for yourself whether they did. The Yijing needs to allow doubt about what is meant... It is that which makes the reader activate their heart-mind and penetrate the Change at hand.

Sorry – my oversight. Here’s the Sorrels’ text for primary Hx.7 and changing line 7.3:

HONOR, LOYALTY, INTEGRITY
The way of the warrior
Advance with courage and discipline
Earth over the water. The dangerous energy of water is controlled by the willing nature of the earth or the meadow. The utilizing of a powerful force. In ancient China each soldier carried on his back the flag of the side he was fighting for. It was either sewn onto the back of his jacket or flying on a short pole attached to his backpack. Each and every soldier was a standard bearer defending the flag with his honor and his life.
Personal responsibility and integrity even when not in a position of authority.
Great things will be accomplished. With self-discipline, it is possible to see and correct one’s faults.

LINE 3 Corpses in the wagon
Disorder and failure due to incompetent and conflicting leadership and poorly delegated authority. Find a competent leader who can bring order. Are you the one, or would you opt for getting out?

And their text for the relating Hx.46:

ARISING, GROWTH, MOVING UP
Upward mobility
Have no fear, see the wise one
Tree under the earth. The tree pushes its way up through the earth. The energy is moving upward and outward.
This is not a sudden or aggressive movement, as the tree is a flexible and penetrating force. The earth just needs to be moved aside for the tree to reach the light.
You are favored for a promotion of some sort. Do not be afraid to make a move or see someone influential.

As you see, they are committing the very translation offenses – stripping out the original Zhouyi imagery and replacing it with their gloss and interpretation – that would rub many here, including ourselves, the wrong way. Here’s Hilary’s by comparison:

Hexagram 7
Oracle
‘The Army: with constancy.
Mature people, good fortune.
No mistake.’
Image
‘In the centre of the earth is a stream. The Army.
A noble one accepts the people and gathers together crowds.’

Line 3
‘Perhaps the army carts corpses.
Pitfall.’

Hexagram 46
Oracle
‘Pushing upward, creating success from the source.
Make use of seeing great people.
Do not worry.
Set forth to the south, good fortune.’
Image
‘Centre of the earth gives birth to wood. Pushing upward.
A noble one with patient character,
Builds up small things to attain the high and great.’

As Harmen notes:

There is a great difference in reach and depth between Yijing interpretations and translations. In the former there is often a lack of it because all the symbols of the Yi are removed. The symbols are the true voice of the Yi: they are the notes that make the melody. Without the symbols there is no melody. An interpretation describes the melody but will never enable you to hear it.
[www.reddit.com/r/iching/comments/7x8mus/the_difference_between_yijing_interpretations_and/]

The Sorrels do, however, have useful comments regarding the trigram energies and their relations. When I worked through the Sorrels’ book examples, I deliberately looked to Hilary’s translation and ignored theirs. For each example, I attempted to interpret based on the casting prior to reading their interpretation. The overwhelming majority of the time, I found myself in broad agreement with their conclusion.

Thank you, I adored the whole page - What a delight!

Oh yes. “Pangur Bán” is one of those things every scholarly-minded cat lover ought to know of.

In closing I wanted to bring up a matter for comment sparked by something you said some time ago regarding, in your long experience, the fundamental honesty of Yi, whatever its nature. The problem is that one never – or rarely – encounters the voice of Yi directly, but typically, given the inherently metaphoric and imagistic quality both of the Zhouyi text and trigram interpretation, through the ‘dark glass’ of one’s interpretive capabilities. For the relative apprentice to the ‘craft’ of divination, there is a two-fold issue of trust: learning to trust the oracle but also learning to trust one’s interpretive capacity – a capacity that will have to be matured and honed – as being adequate for divination. Further, these two types of trust are typically entangled in the context of a given reading. For confidence, both trusts need to be present in the understanding of what a given casting is saying with respect to the associated query. Again, this is part of the importance of having a body of high-level worked examples as well, ultimately, of apprenticeship and practice. One needs to be secure in one’s technique. It is ‘worse’ in a sense, in that I Ching interpretive technique is not like algebra or some other highly rational discipline. There is an intuitive element that is absorbed through ‘hands-on’ practice much more than through strict ‘rule-applying’ and formal study. In that sense, my suspicion is that practical I Ching work is more like a ‘craft’ than a ‘discipline’. I find myself often receiving a casting for a query and having a relatively good idea of what is being said, but a) lacking firm confidence, b) wondering if there is more being conveyed than what I am extracting. I expect some of this gets better with experience, or perhaps you simply learn to live with the vagueness of reply as containing all the precision you might typically need. I would welcome your thoughts on all this.

Finally, let me reiterate my request from my last post regarding your earlier statement: “I am constantly amazed how even basic divination can help people back onto their path.” Can you enlarge on that, with examples if possible?

All best regards,

Peter

 

[kevin]

Hi Peters

As Harmen notes:

There is a great difference in reach and depth between Yijing interpretations and translations. In the former there is often a lack of it because all the symbols of the Yi are removed. The symbols are the true voice of the Yi: they are the notes that make the melody. Without the symbols there is no melody. An interpretation describes the melody but will never enable you to hear it.

This is saying what I have said in previous posts. So, I do agree.
I would add that it is also the gaps between the notes and notes missing which demand the diviner to reach onto the dark glass (as you refer to it lower down) and find their own meaning.

However, remember the Symbols are not just the Image from the name, the hexagrams and trigrams, but also the symbolism conjured up by the text. This was the view of a number of lauded ancient Chinese scholars.

The Sorrels do, however, have useful comments regarding the trigram energies and their relations. When I worked through the Sorrels’ book examples, I deliberately looked to Hilary’s translation and ignored theirs. For each example, I attempted to interpret based on the casting prior to reading their interpretation. The overwhelming majority of the time, I found myself in broad agreement with their conclusion.

You seem to have found a way of working with Sorrels' work in a way which works for you. As long as it's working for you, that is all that matters. If you are like many of us over time you will refine and change.

In closing I wanted to bring up a matter for comment sparked by something you said some time ago regarding, in your long experience, the fundamental honesty of Yi, whatever its nature. The problem is that one never – or rarely – encounters the voice of Yi directly, but typically, given the inherently metaphoric and imagistic quality both of the Zhouyi text and trigram interpretation, through the ‘dark glass’ of one’s interpretive capabilities. For the relative apprentice to the ‘craft’ of divination, there is a two-fold issue of trust: learning to trust the oracle but also learning to trust one’s interpretive capacity – a capacity that will have to be matured and honed – as being adequate for divination. Further, these two types of trust are typically entangled in the context of a given reading. For confidence, both trusts need to be present in the understanding of what a given casting is saying with respect to the associated query.

It is as you say. One cannot use a rational method to develop, not trust, but its close ally, confidence. The only way to develop this is practice, practice and practice again. There is no other way.

Again, this is part of the importance of having a body of high-level worked examples as well, ultimately, of apprenticeship and practice. One needs to be secure in one’s technique. It is ‘worse’ in a sense, in that I Ching interpretive technique is not like algebra or some other highly rational discipline.

They are good to develop method. However, a third party reader is necessarily outside of the mantic space in which the reading took place. For that reason they are condemned to seeing it as if through a keyhole. So much of the complete picture is not available to them.

There is an intuitive element that is absorbed through ‘hands-on’ practice much more than through strict ‘rule-applying’ and formal study.

Yes!

Finally, let me reiterate my request from my last post regarding your earlier statement: “I am constantly amazed how even basic divination can help people back onto their path.” Can you enlarge on that, with examples if possible?

That's simple. Cast Hexagram, any changing lines and a Resulting Hexagram if there is one. Use text or just the hexagram, trigrams and line dynamics. I would recommend a good route would be to do just the first until you feel fluent and then add the second method as an add on after doing the first. The established practice of the first, more common method will act as a guide star whilst practising the second.

Otherwise, stick to the 'common practice' and start adding additional methods, nuclear hexagrams, hexagram pathways (a very powerful tool) or whatever as you build your repertoire.

I have enjoyed your insights and approach.

Be well

Warmly

Kevin

 

[peters]

Dear Kevin,

I would add that it is also the gaps between the notes and notes missing which demand the diviner to reach onto the dark glass (as you refer to it lower down) and find their own meaning.

Yes, my evocation of the ‘dark glass’ of divination is a poetic nod to the famous line of St. Paul [1 Corinthians 13:12] (or possibly to the Bergman film). The ‘glass’ is typically understood to be a mirror, and of course seeking an image in a ‘dim mirror’ is symbolic of the act of divination (for that matter, Google ‘psychomanteum’ for another kind of ‘dim mirror’ divination). See, for instance Stephen Karcher’s “The Mirror of Divination,” [https://2d7jnsqyszo3p749240y14t1-wp...tent/uploads/2015/11/Mirror-of-Divination.pdf] or Richard J. Smith’s reference to “a nineteenth century Chinese commentary on the Yijing [that] states succinctly: ‘The Changes is the mirror of men’s minds.’” [Richard J. Smith, “The Changes as a Mirror of the Mind: The Evolution of the Zhouyi in China and Beyond”]

As to your point, a particular situation I can reference from my own life and consultation addressing this distinction between translation and interpretation is one in which I had suffered a significant loss and had been turning over in my mind for some time what might have been done differently. In this midst of all this, I did a general casting without a specific query and received 34.5>43, with changing line (tr. Hilary):

Losing sheep at Yi.
No regrets.

The receipt of this line pierced through my recriminations and delivered real relief and peace of mind at a critical time. It felt very much like the gifting of a higher perspective than what I myself could reach or muster in that moment. Part of the ‘connection’ was precisely the metaphoric ambiguity of the line in question, which allowed space for its relevance to my situation to be apparent to me. Compare this to three translated ‘interpretations’ of the same line, given below, all of which fall flat and miss the mark and none of which would have evoked the same connection of understanding and being understood for me:

One who gives up a stubborn and harsh way of acting will not regret it. No harm comes if you soften now.
[Brian Browne Walker, The I Ching: A Guide to Life’s Turning Points]

The situation has changed for the better. Now, nothing stands in your way. This means that there is absolutely no need to be stubborn or aggressive. You can resolve the situation harmoniously.
[Sarah Dening, The Everyday I Ching]

Letting the ram go free. If someone wants to break free, let them go without regret. Let others have their own way. You can easily let go of your stubborn nature. There is no need for you to force the issue.
[Roderic and Amy M. Sorrell, I Ching Made Easy]

However, remember the Symbols are not just the Image from the name, the hexagrams and trigrams, but also the symbolism conjured up by the text. This was the view of a number of lauded ancient Chinese scholars.

Yes, for me presently, the symbols are primarily those of the Zhouyi oracular text, to some extent the hexagram title, and very little the hexagrams and trigrams. I hope to correct this latter deficiency in time. Harmen makes the point that the words of the Zhouyi oracular text are really verbal symbols – picture painting with words – and should be understood as such.

You seem to have found a way of working with Sorrels’ work in a way which works for you. As long as it’s working for you, that is all that matters. If you are like many of us over time you will refine and change.

It seemed a sensible way to go, given the wealth of real-life examples they include in their book. But I should say that I worked through the book systematically, treating it primarily as a workbook of examples to which I could apply a more ‘standard’ translation and interpretive method (aka Hilary’s), and having completed it, laid it aside.

It is as you say. One cannot use a rational method to develop, not trust, but its close ally, confidence. The only way to develop this is practice, practice and practice again. There is no other way.

Indeed.

They are good to develop method. However, a third-party reader is necessarily outside of the mantic space in which the reading took place. For that reason, they are condemned to seeing it as if through a keyhole. So much of the complete picture is not available to them.

You raise a good point. Hilary has a post somewhere regarding the difficulty of interpreting for another, as one does not possess the depth and fullness of understanding of a given situation that Yi may be addressing for that individual. Only they can draw out subtle metaphoric connections, based on their knowledge of the situation, but they may well be far less experienced in doing so than the diviner. It’s a bit of a Catch-22: the diviner has greater technique and experience with Yi, but poor knowledge of the situation at hand, whereas the querent has, typically, no technique or experience with Yi, but good knowledge of the situation at hand. I guess the two put their heads together and muddle through as best they may. In principle, it would seem, the best situation is that of an experienced Yi diviner querying regarding a situation in which they have good knowledge.

That’s simple. Cast Hexagram, any changing lines and a Resulting Hexagram if there is one. Use text or just the hexagram, trigrams and line dynamics. I would recommend a good route would be to do just the first until you feel fluent and then add the second method as an add on after doing the first. The established practice of the first, more common method will act as a guide star whilst practising the second.

Fair enough. It’s the getting to the ‘feeling fluent’ that I’m working on.

Otherwise, stick to the ‘common practice’ and start adding additional methods, nuclear hexagrams, hexagram pathways (a very powerful tool) or whatever as you build your repertoire.

Can you say more regarding the method of ‘hexagram pathways’ that you reference here?

I have enjoyed your insights and approach.

As I have yours.

All the best,

Peter

 

[kevin]

Great

Do a search on Clarity under Crossline Omens. Stephen K did a live thread on them. Or see his 'Total I Ching'. Though they are not complex it would take me several pages to explain them. I call them Line Pathways (I think folk here might use that term too). Less dramatic. One can work them out oneself, but it is complicated. It is easier just to look up the 'route' and read his commentary in 'Total I Ching'.

Here is SK on the subject. I hope it is helpful.

Crossline Omens

Each Pair or set of two interconnected hexagrams in Change generates a set of other paired figures across its Internal Matrix. These sets of Generated Pairs do many things. They describe the overall interchange between the themes of the two hexagrams involved; they connect the Pair in question to other sites in the overall Matrix or Sequence and produce the Karmic Nodes; and, perhaps most important for those of us who need specific help in negotiating a tricky situation, they generate the Crossline Omens. While the Transforming Lines of Change show particular points where it is at work, the Crossline Omens open the hidden pathways through which the possibilities of transformation can be realized.

How the Crossline Omens are Made
Crossline Omens trace the inner pathways of Change across the Internal Matrix of a Pair. They begin in a given Transforming Line in one hexagram, move through the lines generated in the Relating Figures associated with the change as a whole, and emerge in the connected Transforming Line of the second hexagram.
Each Transforming Line in the texts we present is made up of a translated text and a commentary that offers direct divinatory advice. Beneath it is the Crossline Omen. It begins with a description of the Line Position, the place or voice from which Change is “speaking” or “calling” and a Decimal Notation of the Omen then offers images from the lines in the Generated Pairs that describe the hidden pathway between the interconnected Transforming Lines. (The phrase Go back and accept the challenge is a reminder that a particular Crossline reads backwards in the King Wen Sequence). The final phrases of the Crossline Omen relate you to one of the Four Gates of Change (1, 2, 63, and 64) and, when relevant, include a description of the hidden zone of transformation that is exerting an influence on the process.

What the Crosslines Do
A Crossline Omen represents a dialogue between the Primal Powers, the Dragon and the Dark Animal Goddess, in a very specific situation. It offers a profound and precise portrait of change in a given moment, a little epiphany of spirit and enlightenment that emerges from the interconnection of the opposites.
The Transforming Lines and the Crossline Omens in Change seem to exist in a sort of compensatory or complementary relationship related to the old myth of the King and his Dark Brother or Sage, or the Sun Tree and the Moon Tree with the flow of the underworld Ghost River connecting them. The Transforming Line shows the overt situation while the Crossline Omen shows a hidden pathway or dark teaching (nei yeh) that compensates, modulates or reinforces the overt situation, opening the hidden transformative potential and offering suggestions about how to realize it.
In practice, I have found these deep pathways can truly contribute to an understanding of the precise ways Change is moving, linking us to the magical transformative power of the mythological mind. They are where we encounter the real transformative power of the oracle, what I call the Voices of Change.




Using the Crosslines
I tend to use the Crossline Omens as Voices at the culmination of a Reading, setting up a context of intellectual and feeling associations first by circulating through all the positions of the Reading Matrix. The only way I can really illustrate this (rather than analyzing it) is to take you through an example of building the contexts, asking you to enter the spirit of the reading so you might experience what the Voice of the Crossline can do when it is dropped into the web of connections. Here is the example. We asked a question to Change about how we can best read the answers it gives us.
Question: What would you (Change) like to say to us about reading your answers to our questions?
The Answer was Hexagram 3 Sprouting as Primary Figure, with a Transforming Line in the first position, producing the Relating Figure 8 Grouping. The Answer is notated like this:
Answer: 3, 9/1 > 8 Grouping.
As we worked through the Reading, we built up a rich context for the Crossline. We learned through the Relating Figure that we are related to the overall situation of “Reading an Answer” through a radical change in the way we group our thoughts and the people with whom we feel spiritual kinship (8). As Winter, this means finding the seed of the new by grinding away old forms of thought, which was reinforced by Grouping’s Core Theme (23), the need to “strip the corpse” of an old identity and its old ways of thought. We had a clue to how we can enter the extended realm of the reading in the Trigrams: inner devotion to this process can give us the ability to manage the flow and flux of life, the endless images and ideas life is constantly generating. We must not impose an a priori idea or plan on this flux, but empower the images and ideas that arise to help connect us to the great change of awareness.
The Pair told us that we are in an Inspiring phase when we encounter the images of Change, seeking inspiring inner images, and that we are also in early childhood here, seeking a way to find an identity within its great world. We must establish the deep foundations of Change within, enveloping and nurturing the “birth of the new,” for there is great hidden potency here, a possibility to “renew the time.” The disordering of our previous ways of thinking would be a conspicuous sign that the process is really beginning.
The primary Figure (3) talked about the difficulties, the confusion and the profusion we face when we first encounter the richness of the images of the Change. This encounter can sprout a new world of meaning, an approach to real centers of power. It can inspire us, rousing new growth. We might see ourselves as seeking a bride, a “sprout,” a new imaginative or anima possibility, massing our strength to find it and looking for clear signs to differentiate and relate the various kinds of imagery. The push behind this search is a release from whatever in the past holds our creative energy in check.
The Response gave us our first reading strategies: Do not impose ideas, accept the myriad intuitions. Follow the yielding path and empower helpers – the related figures of the Matrix that can open the various perspectives. We must gather this energy to surmount the obstacles to understanding, to break through the conceptual crust, the hard pounded earth of old ideas and monotonous, deadening language. This is an exciting time, full of possibilities, the opening of a new world of insight and imagination that can reveal the sacred cosmos.
The Shaman Speaks said there is a rousing force at work deep in the River of Ghosts now that will reward us for our hermeneutic labor if we accept the shock of its enlightening force. The old world is dissolving all around us as we encounter the images of the Change, while a fertile new cycle sprouts within to open in our imagination. If we want to realize this we must give each kind of image its place in the new world that is emerging.
The Core Theme of the Primary Figure (23) is the same as the Relating Figure, reinforcing its meanings. So we must focus on the necessity to strip away all our cognitive pre-conceptions, our need to assimilate the images of Change to moral patterns or philosophical ideas. We must “give freely to what is below”, activating the hidden force of the complexes, to use psychological terms, letting the bright light of our ego-certainties flow back into the fertile darkness. This connects us to one of the Hidden Winds that flow through Change, here the Earth, the Goddesses (2) and their great power of realizing things, making the symbols real in our lives and imagination.
The Inner Operator (24) spoke a great return in the inner world that re-establishes our relation to something that as been lost or repressed in the development of our identity and our culture. We should see whatever emerges as we strip away our cognitive patterns, all the little intuitions and insights carried by the psycho-active images, as truly significant and nurture them carefully. Bar the passages, it says. Leave the complicated and return to the simple. As our inner inspiration, this can bring a great faith in the realm of the feminine and the overall processes of life. It will let us respond fully, joyously and spontaneously when the real meaning emerges rather than engaging in more logic-chopping and premature analysis.
The Outer Operator (44) told us about the connection between the inner images and the events of a reading, a connection the old diviners called dang or “matching.” Here the “matching” will come through “strange encounters,” synchronicities that occur as the new feminine power works its way into our relation with outer events (44) from below. Things will “grip” us with a power outside of logic. Then, in the words of Dazhuan, “spontaneously the Way will arise.”
The Ideal Form (36) told us this is the time to accept the difficult journey and spread the mandate (Ming) to the “hidden lands,” the shadowy parts of the soul. This can change the way we perceive ourselves and our world and let us be of real help to others. It is what brings deliverance from the past, inculcating a deep faith in the feminine processes of life. The Shadow Site (62) said we must not proceed through being very Small, adapting to what already exists, but through a Great new image or purpose. We are not preparing a legacy for future generations here, but concentrating the work at hand - our own birth into the tradition and the help we might give to others in the present moment.
The Time Cycle showed the Hidden Wind of 2 Field and the feminine power of Earth acting through the Core Theme of 23 Stripping. It enters the cycle at the Fall position, described by 20 Viewing and the Ancestor’s Eyes. This is the place where we “harvest the crop and gather the insights.” This Figure is about divination and the effect of a new ancestor spirit that is released from the world of death and mourning. So we begin our reading of the answers from Change here, in the Tower where initiation begins, looking out at the world to see the effects of this spirit, of the cleansing of our ancestral or parental images. We watch the hidden signs from a distance and think of the common good. We begin to set up teachings for all and ascend to a higher level of awareness.
The energy and insights gathered here are then pushed on into Winter, represented by the Relating Figure 8 in our basic reading, a new grouping of thoughts. Here the personal grinding occurs, stripping away the chaff to find the seeds of new growth. It is where the new world represented by the symbols of Change and their way of connecting to ancestral energies truly grips us. We are challenged to find a new base of mutual support and spiritual kinship, to become part of the new group of lords and helping spirits that emerges.
The Hidden Wind then pushes us on into Spring and our Primary Figure 3, the Sprouting of a new world that springs up through our experience of the giving the symbols a place in our heart-mind. As we establish the new world, confront the difficulties, seek the bride and watch the World Tree emerge, a new kind of significance dawns that can give us the ability to use the clear signs that relate the groups of kindred spirits and kindred meanings to deliver us from the suffering of the past.
As Summer ripens the fruits of our reading process, we experience the Blessing that comes from the sacrifice of our intellectual presuppositions (42) and can extend them to others. This is a fertile and expansive time, a time of creative transformation in which we can help the energies of Change extend themselves. We acquire a place where we can influence the world we live in, where we visualize improvement, shift our position and give the omens an enduring form.

I would ask you to hold all this in mind, envision your self as one who is first entering the great mysteries of “reading Change,” and feel how the Crossline resonates. This Voice speaks to the very Beginnings of the profound change that a reading can work in our awareness and give us directions on how to root or sprout it in our heart and in our world.

Initial Nine
A stone pillar.
The riders wheel and turn.
Trial: Advantageous for a residence. Harvesting.
Advantageous to install lords as helpers.
Your purpose is moving correctly. Value what is below. The Great acquires support of the common people. This is the standing stone in front of an ancestral temple, sprouted from the earth. Stop and establish your foundations. Connect this experience to your own deep roots. Connect with and empower others to help you. You are on the right track. This is not a time to act on impulse.
Inspiration Beginning (3.1 [8.1 : 7.6] 4.6): You have is a connection to the spirit that will carry you through, filling the vessels to overflowing. You receive a mandate to lay out a new city and receive the dwellers. Go back and accept the challenge. Do not act like an outlaw, violent and impulsive, for you would be smiting the very envelopment that will bring things to maturity. Find supportive friends. Be open and provide what is needed. You are being influenced by a transformation at the inner centers of life, when the Ghost River (29) emerges from Earth (2) to change the face of the world.


If we have done our work well in the overall Reading, this Voice will act like a stone thrown into a still pool, the pool of meanings our reading has created, and its effects will ripple out into our awareness in an ever-increasing circle. This spreading circle of awareness is what we can take away with us. It then becomes our job to give it an enduring form, so that it can influence our life and the lives of those around us.

Be well

Kevin

of Great Vessel

 

[kevin]

Heads up.
My post has been edited to include useful info.

 

[peters]

Dear Kevin,

Do a search on Clarity under Crossline Omens. Stephen K did a live thread on them...

I have done so. I’m not sure if I found the live thread you mention, but I have found the following (the first link has the content you included in your post):

https://web.archive.org/web/20071117024930/http://www.greatvessel.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=555&tabindex=1&DocumentID=2373 [Karcher]

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/The_Steps_of_Yu.html [Karcher]

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/fri...of-yu-new-material-from-stephen-karcher.2703/ [Karcher accompanying thread]

https://2d7jnsqyszo3p749240y14t1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Karmic-Nodes.pdf [Karcher]

https://2d7jnsqyszo3p749240y14t1-wp...uploads/2015/11/Pairs-and-Crossline-Omens.pdf [Karcher]

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2011/11/07/a-line-pathway/ [Hilary]

https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/index.php?threads/crosslines-fan-yao-and-squares.202/ [LiSe]

In the course of doing this, I found also the following, highly relevant, 14-year-old post of yours. As Stephen has now retired, as you recently indicated, can you advise as to what you consider the most current and complete statement(s) of his methodology, perhaps taken as an update on your post below?

On choosing a Stephen Karcher Yijing and what a concordance is:
Stephen’s thinking is constantly developing as he researches reads and well umm? thinks.

So, to a great degree his books, in date order, reflect his development.

Here is the ‘Barefoot Sages Guide’:

How to Use the I Ching, Element Books (1997)
This was written while he was working at the Eranos Institute. The translated text is good and the commentary is clear, authoritative, but simple. To my mind this is one of the best entry level books around.

I Ching Plain and Simple, Element Books (2004)
Is the same book as the ‘How to Use the I Ching’. However, it has two printer/layout errors in the introductory chapters.

I Ching by Ritsema/Karcher, Element Books (1994)
This was the culmination of Ritsema and Karcher?s 8 Years of collaboration at the Eranos institute. With its associated contexts (alternative word meanings for the Chinese characters) and its Concordance (look a word up and it gives the references to the other places it appears), this is for me a new standard of Yijing.

I Ching, Vega (2003)
This is the improved version of Ritsema/Karcher above. There were a number of changes to hexagram names, commentary added, and Nuclear hexagrams, which were marked as ‘Counter Indications’, became more correctly marked as ‘Hidden Possibility’. I regard this as the essential authoritative tool for exploring the Yijing because of the associated contexts which are founded on very wide reading and therefore attempt only to give those meanings which were likely. Also, because the word for word translation is pretty authoritative, given the limitations of translating one Chinese character with one English word.

Symbols of Love I Ching for Lovers Friends and Relationships, Time Warner (2003)
Do not be put off by the title that Warner Books put on it! This Yijing has a commentary which focuses on relating and relationships. The translated text benefits from later research. The commentary is very clear and has the benefit of some 30 years of study and practice. It is more complex than ‘Plain and Simple’ or ‘How to Use’ but retains a good clarity in the commentary. I think this is a good book to have around. It would also serve as a good entry level book.

Total I Ching, Time Warner (2003)
In this book Stephen brings out the symbolism of the text and figures. He explains more complex methodology such as the use of nuclear hexagrams, change operators and crossline omens. Word of warning – he does not use this crossline omen method for crossline omens now – later work led to some modifications.

The other interesting thing he did in it was to gather up the more authoritative wings, and in the light of recent research, put them together with the original layers. This means it is not useful for someone who wants to explore the word for word meanings of the text. However, it does give a text which is faithful to the I Ching and which is perhaps more evocative than having the layers completely separated out. It also has short pieces exploring the mythology behind each hexagram.

Hope this is useful

--Kevin

[https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/index.php?threads/my-yijing-bookshelf.253/]

Best and thanks again,

Peter

 

[peters]

Dear Kevin,

I note on the defunct Great Vessel website the availability of two ebooks from Stephen Karcher, I Ching: Foundations of Change and The Shuogua: The Way of the Eight Spirit Helpers. I don’t see these listed on the present I Ching Living Change website, nor have I been able to find them on offer elsewhere. Do you have any idea how these might be purchased at present?

All the best,

Peter

 

[kevin]

Hello Peters

I'm unable to sustain this level of posting. I'm sorry, but I have my own work to do as well and daily lengthy replies to one person, no matter how deserving, is too much.

My plan is to occasionally reply to divination requests on the 'Shared Readings' forum. That might be useful for you in terms of worked examples.

You have so much information to move forward with.

The two books you mention are currently not available. This situation may change in the future. I'm sure it will be in Clarity News if and when they are. I think his Shuogua is particularly good and I am endeavouring to find a way to make it available.

'Total I Ching' has all of his methodology.

I do hope you move beyond data assimilation and onto divination practice, if that is your goal.

I wish you the very best with your studies.

We can talk at a future date if there are specifics.

Warmly

Kevin

P.S. You might find investing in Hillary's course a good way to go.

 

[peters]

Dear Kevin,

I perfectly understand and felt that our exchange was drawing to its natural conclusion in any case. I expect I’ve run out of things to contribute for the time being as well. Thank you for your clarification regarding the two e-books I inquired about. I will add Total I Ching to the book acquisition list on your recommendation. As for moving beyond data assimilation to divination practice, it’s rather that I’ve been engaged in divination practice for some time, but am engaged with ‘data assimilation’ to a) trust it more, and b) do it better. As per your suggestion, I’m on the waitlist for Hilary’s next Foundations Course, whenever that might be.

Once again, I’ve very much enjoyed our extended exchange and appreciate your generosity of time and expertise. Once again, I wish you well.

All best regards,

Peter