...life can be translucent

Menu

What will happen to Trump Fri Jun 12 throw

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
Well, I copied the 4 guidelines but they didn't remain in clipboard, and can't go back so here goes anyway:

Personal background: have been throwing I-Ching since the 1970's, nearly always using Wilhelm edition. Had many more for a while but a fire dissolved them all so am left with the same old copy I bought back then. Very comfortable with that language now. Also studied graduate level chinese medical theory at a daoist school for a little while, but it was too expensive (US University fees for credit) and didn't do the whole thing, but have better than beginner's understanding of yin-yang theory.

I know someone who is slightly psychic. I am not at all as far as I know! She told me recently that in terms of Trump, he will not be President come November, but nor will any of the Opposite Party, and he will not die. That's an interesting combination, no? So she suggested I do a throw and even though I don't usually use the I-Ching that way (throwing about public figures, the world etc.) I did. I don't always ask precise questions since I find often the results harder to read. It's more like I ask for an energy pattern reading about a situation. I find that works best for me, and then the hexagrams give guidance on the sort of approach that may be called for, the dangers, the opportunities and the changing lines help hone in on particular aspects or provide clues as to more specific things that may come up or be involved. Something like that. Sometimes I find the readings extremely clear and easily applicable; sometimes not. This one seems quite clear. I use coins which I've had also since the 70's. I begin the throw by placing all three Yang side up on the table, then pick them up, shake them hidden between both palms, and cast. I then pick them up as they have fallen, and repeat another 5 times. Before and during the throw, I keep my mind on the topic at hand. In this case I had in mind Trump between now and November.

I threw 3.3 to 63.

Difficulty at the Beginning is in some sense the first action Hexagram in the series given that 1 & 2 are all-Yang & all-Yin. I think of them as quasi Primordial. If I get them, I feel that something deep is going down. 3 is the first one after those pure ones. The situation is chock full of limitless potential but challenging. That seems a fair synopsis. In many ways Trump has been thwarted from his first days and is still an outsider with few connections to the insiders who are doing all they can to expel him. This is where the #3 Changing line was very specific and interesting:
you need a guide to take you into and through the forest if you are hunting therein else you lose your way in the forest. "The superior man understands the sign of the time and prefers to desist. To go on brings humiliation." Further commentary on the changing line then reads later: "Therefore, the superior man, seeing the seeds of coming events, prefers to renounce a wish rather than provoke failure and humiliation by trying to force its fulfillment."

Well! That was a very striking echo of my friend's somewhat enigmatic take.

Leading to: 63 After Completion. As I saw that (I used to know the hexagram nr as soon as I threw it but that was years ago when I threw more regularly and was much younger!) number come up, I thought: "Ah, it's over, he's done!"

In any case, it dovetails VERY well with my friend's reading using other methods. In this throw, it seems like he will withdraw from the field to avoid disgrace and humiliation. Let's face it, after four years there the forces arrayed against him are demonstrating that they are willing to burn the entire country down if necessary to ensure he never enjoys any easy successes. At a certain point, as I remarked to my wife this morning, you have to conclude that he's not up to the job. Not necessarily in terms of talent or competence, but in terms of networking, of fitting in. Even if he wins again, and even if he were to get both House and Senate again, it is quite likely that he would be massively obstructed all the way both at home and abroad. Also his enemies have pledged to prosecute him after he gets out of office and try to put him and his family away for long stretches, even though as yet - and even after almost three years of a intensive govt-run probes - they have no crime on him. Still, a businessman with hundreds of holdings will always have some things which can be challenged.

It's brutal, the whole affair, and if the powers that be in the DC Establishment wanted to send a message to any other outsider considering a 'drain the swamp' run to enter only at their peril, they have succeeded I suspect. He is outmatched by the depth and scope of enmity arrayed against him in what has become an overly bloated and highly corrupt Republic. Pity. I know he's controversial and hated by many, but energetic and competent even most of his enemies will grant him. Imagine what might have happened if they hadn't tried to sabotage his Presidency from the day after the election? He was never given the peaceful transition of power. Again, a great pity, not just for him, but for the Republic.

If indeed he does end up bowing out, the country will go through a deep teaching moment as it contemplates - finally without the heat of aroused hatred and scorn - what next ill transpire? Do they go back to corruption as usual? Do they choose a happy median as with Obama, joyfully covering up all the corruptions and excesses, a feel-good as we all go broke together approach? Or do they try again for reform but with someone less controversial, someone less likely to get the Establishment's back up, in other words, someone who won't rock the boat and therefore won't reform anything? Or do they want another fighter? The country is going to have to do some soul-searching. In a way, that will be much deeper once he's out of the picture.

All of these sorts of issues seem to me to be in the changing line, that he was on the hunt for a deer in the forest, but lacked sufficient guides who knew the local terrain, and indeed still lacks them. Nearly everyone he appoints ends up serving the Establishment first, and the People's elected Tribune a distant second. So perhaps he would be doing the right thing by leaving the field. I find it almost impossible to imagine him doing this, but both this throw and my friend's reading share that same prognostication, namely that he won't die, and he won't be President come November. Oh - she also said he wasn't going to lose either. This throw is predicting a withdrawal. Maybe there won't be a normal election, but the hexagrams don't really address that, unless 63 indicates the end of the entire dynamic, but that seems like a stretch to me given the throw was about Trump. Still, that individual IS President of the Republic so his fate - for now at least - is tied up with the fate of the entire Republic. And as some remarks in the #3 Changing line Wilhem commentary say: "Fate cannot be duped (we would say: you can't cheat fate); premature effort without the necessary guidance, ends in failure and disgrace. .... therefore renouncing the wish is better than failing..... etc.

We'll see. Anyway.

So on the surface it seems like a very straightforward reading. Am curious what anyone else might think.

PS I just noticed:
#3 is the first 'working hexagram so to speak after the opening Primordial Two. And #63 is in the last pair, being After Completion so in a way the End. So this is the first working with the last working hexagrams. Seems like a complete package, a beginning and an end. I would say the throw clearly indicates that he is a One Term President.
 
Last edited:

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
23,759
Reaction score
2,643
I know someone who is slightly psychic. I am not at all as far as I know! She told me recently that in terms of Trump, he will not be President come November, but nor will any of the Opposite Party, and he will not die. That's an interesting combination, no?

Prison ? Nursing Home ?




In any case, it dovetails VERY well with my friend's reading using other methods. In this throw, it seems like he will withdraw from the field to avoid disgrace and humiliation. Let's face it, after four years there the forces arrayed against him are demonstrating that they are willing to burn the entire country down if necessary to ensure he never enjoys any easy successes.


How do you mean ?


. And as another line in the Changing line commentary says: "Fate cannot be duped (we would say: you can't cheat fate); premature effort without the necessary guidance, ends in failure and disgrace. .... therefore renouncing the wish is better than failing..... etc.

There's nothing really about fate in the line
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
23,759
Reaction score
2,643
#3 is the first 'working hexagram so to speak after the opening Primordial Two. And #63 is in the last pair, being After Completion so in a way the End. So this is the first working with the last working hexagrams. Seems like a complete package, a beginning and an end. I would say the throw clearly indicates that he is a One Term President.


Yes, we can but hope
 

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
Prison ? Nursing Home ?







How do you mean ?




There's nothing really about fate in the line
That quote about fate came directly from the commentary. "Fate cannot be duped; premature effort, without the necessary guidance, ends in failure and disgrace. Therefore the superior man, discerning the seeds of coming events, prefers to renounce a wish rather than to provoke failure and humiliation by trying to force its fulfillment. "

So I disagree. This is very much about fate, esp. in the context of this being the 1st action hexagram in the series, difficulty at the beginning, a fertile situation which by its nature is all about what later unfolds, so it's about potential but also destiny, or fate.
 

Trojina

Moderator
Clarity Supporter
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
23,759
Reaction score
2,643
If it's not a political discussion how come you spent paragraphs and paragraphs (well just one massive chunk, you didn't actually manage paragraphs) on your own political views ?

Strictly speaking there's so much political discussion or rather opinion in your post it may as well be in Open Space.

You have a paragraph problem, may need to switch browser or something. A big chunk of text like that is hard to read though I did and see you are trying to make some sort of pity party for Donald Trump

So I disagree. This is very much about fate, esp. in the context of this being the 1st action hexagram in the series, difficulty at the beginning, a fertile situation which by its nature is all about what later unfolds, so it's about potential but also destiny, or fate.



Yes I spotted the quote in the commentary, it has nothing to do with line 3 really. Wilhelm's great but his commentary isn't always right. I don't think 'fate cannot be duped' has much to do with 3.3 personally. That's my view. Have you met LL yet ?
 

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
If it's not a political discussion how come you spent paragraphs and paragraphs (well just one massive chunk, you didn't actually manage paragraphs) on your own political views ?

A: I didn't share my political views apart from observing that he has been under attack for years - which is patently obvious - and now the country is burning down (figuratively speaking) as an expression of resistance to his Presidency as a way of encouraging people to vote him out. It might be a mistaken observation, but it's not really a political view. Unless you regard being able to consider Trump without taking a strong anti-Trump position a political view. I don't live in America, am not American, and don't have a strong opinion about the man either way, but what happens in the States ripples around the world. Witness the BLM riots in London. These things are organised. Or maybe you think THAT'S a political opinion too. Sounds like you have a political opinion and want everyone else to share it. I don't operate that way myself, but to each his own.

Strictly speaking there's so much political discussion or rather opinion in your post it may as well be in Open Space.

A. I gather that's what the moderator/host here thinks too. Maybe a new rule: No sharing of throws about political figures. That will take care of that.

You have a paragraph problem, may need to switch browser or something. A big chunk of text like that is hard to read though I did and see you are trying to make some sort of pity party for Donald Trump

A. You have very strong political attitude about Trump. As I mentioned above, I don't. Forgive me for stirring up your emotions!




Yes I spotted the quote in the commentary, it has nothing to do with line 3 really. Wilhelm's great but his commentary isn't always right. I don't think 'fate cannot be duped' has much to do with 3.3 personally. That's my view. Have you met LL yet ?

Well, you are entitled to your opinion about Wilhelm, but I find it overly opinionated on your part to maintain that something mentioned therein is irrelevant. In the text it says: "The superior man understands the signs of the time and prefers to desist." The signs of the time relates to what Wilhelm then comments further on in terms of fate. It's really not all that much of a stretch.
Further, the text and any other commentary are leaping off points to whatever associations they may trigger, especially how they resonate one to another as one goes through the lines and the reading overall. I find the changing lines often point to a particular aspect which then helps contextualise the overall hexagram. In this case, the main issue seems to be that he will retire from the field even though it is a very fertile - powerfully so - situation. That is pretty obvious since we are considering someone in the role of national leader, moreover one who is very ambitious and declares nearly every day that he wants things to improve and leap forward 'bigger and better than ever before' etc. Then you have the 63 result or qualifying hexagram, 'After Completion.' Like I said, when I threw it I thought: 'It's over, he's done.'



Generally in forums like this, it is best to maintain a basic level of politeness. It's much more fun that way.
 

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
If it's not a political discussion how come you spent paragraphs and paragraphs (well just one massive chunk, you didn't actually manage paragraphs) on your own political views ?

Strictly speaking there's so much political discussion or rather opinion in your post it may as well be in Open Space.

You have a paragraph problem, may need to switch browser or something. A big chunk of text like that is hard to read though I did and see you are trying to make some sort of pity party for Donald Trump


A. I re-read what I wrote and agree. I rambled on too much. He doesn't upset me, particularly, but I gather other people are really riled up. Probably I shouldn't have posted this. No-one seems interested in any other interpretations of the reading - though the Prison/Old Age home suggestion, was a good addition, even if offered in a politically snide fashion, perhaps! I was trying to maintain an objective tone, but can see I failed, even though in truth I don't have a dog in the fight - not being America and not living there!

In any case, I turned it into a few more paragraphs.


Yes I spotted the quote in the commentary, it has nothing to do with line 3 really. Wilhelm's great but his commentary isn't always right. I don't think 'fate cannot be duped' has much to do with 3.3 personally. That's my view. Have you met LL yet ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

my_key

visitor
Joined
Mar 22, 1971
Messages
2,038
Reaction score
723
Question: What will happen to Trump ?
I keep my mind on the topic at hand. In this case I had in mind Trump between now and November.
I threw 3.3 to 63.

So just focusing on the reading and not looking to get embroiled in the surrounding chaos.

So what will happen to Trump between June 12the ( day of the reading) and November ( not specifically election day and not specific as to whether this is November before or after election day).

Well, to start with, context of the reading is that whatever will happen is already in the process of happening. Hex 63 has a meaning of 'setting things right' which kind of indicates that before the day of the reading that something is wrong. So Trump is currently swimming in an ocean where the flow is already focussed towards ' setting things right'.

This is going to be assisted by hex3 where a new beginning is truly giving birth. What will happen to him (rather than what will happen as a result of his action) is, from what the judgement offers, that he will experience difficulties. The unsettled, formlessness of the June to November period means that should he undertake anything major then that will steer him away from 'supreme success' (whatver that is in this non- political question scenario) and he would be better advised to seek help from others (his feudal lords) as he decides create some structure in and around himself with respect to which new path would be best for him to strike out on.

During this time things will happen to him where, if he is wise, he will find ways to disentangle himself from the old and look at ways to weave new pathways. The storms that blow around Hex 3 ( clouds and thunder - Wilhelm) are because nothing is yet concrete or certain: as Wilhelm says 'Thus the superior man brings order out of confusion'. It'll be interesting to see if Trump has the capacity to be a superior man at this time when it is 'a man's fate to undertake such new beginnings'.

In particular, the oracle of line 3 indicates that Trump is going to lose his way within this 5 month long forest trek. The wise man, in this time, will step back and pick another goal. However should wisdom not prevail and a choice is made to continue, then that's another story. To carry on your hunt in a 'strange forest with no guide' (Wilhelm) whether it be through stubbornness, pride, vanity, or any other misplaced piece of egotism then whats going to happen is that that person is going to meet with humiliation.

So what will happen to Trump between now and November? To my way of looking at it this consultation seems to be saying it's all down to Trump - it's in his fate and the ball is has already been set a-rolling inexorably towards that fate. Is his fate to be a wise man, saving himself from humiliation, or will his fate be that of the hunter destined for failure if he hunts the wrong game in the strange forest?

Perhaps the fate of his new beginnings is that he intends to go out in a blaze of glory setting the whole forest alight !!!!

....or it may be nothing like this at all.
 

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
Very interesting - and different - take. Exactly what I was hoping for.

Small note: November meant the election not the month.

I take the changing line to mean - if there is an either-or dynamic which there always is - that UNLESS he can find the correct guides through the forest, he should withdraw for he will face humiliation and disgrace (which legions of enemies have been threatening and offering for fours years now!).

As I mentioned in my meandering first commentary, it seems he is often unable to do so since so many have loyalties to the Establishment status quo in DC and/or whatever other globalist networks. That said, the fact that he made it through so many concerted attacks for so long - let alone winning in the first place - is extraordinary, so one can never really predict or count out such a forceful personality.

In the light of my psychic friend's impression, though, which was also the context of the question, this throw would seem to indicate that he is not going to make it through to the election, just as she has said. I don't talk to psychics about things or have anything to do with that stuff generally, but this just popped up in a conversation one time and I thought it interesting so yesterday, for fun, did the throw.

I like it when questions raised get answers that easily relate to the question - like this changing line. When that happens, I tend to swirl all the other aspects of the overall hexagram around that focal point. Am not good enough to get into line-by-line nuances but have developed strong associations with nearly every hexagram after many decades contemplating them in a wide variety of contexts, albeit nearly all of them personal. I think this is my first ever throw about a public figure.

I find 63, for example, a difficult one to deal with nearly every time I throw it. Your sense of 'setting things in order' is interesting but that's not how I see it. To me it's more like things have come together at the end of a process and are now in fruition ('the transition from disorder to order is completed'), but the next change from that state is usually for the order that has been achieved (clarity, stasis, result etc.) to falter or dissolve or segue into something else, so it's important to pay attention, very similar to the fox wetting its tail dynamic in the next hexagram, Before Completion. I am uncomfortable interpreting both these hexagrams, though cannot say why. Fire and Water make uneasy bedfellows perhaps... That said, after looking for three years we found a house, and got 64. The next day we signed a contract.

In any case, for me the dynamic seems fairly clear. The election is the point at which 63 will resolve, it is a clear end point both in terms of any election process and the reading question. But it starts at 3, all the way at the beginning of the series (after 1 & 2). To me this indicates that we are dealing with a large scope, broad-spanning dynamic (again not surprising given the subject). But in the context of the psychic's prediction which prompted the throw, have to say it looks like he isn't going to be in the running by the time the election rolls around.

Not saying I think this is going to happen (I have no opinion at all on that actually), but as a reading in relation to the question it was a surprisingly clear answer. Che sera sera.

Another small point indicating a clear reading: #3 Image is about bringing order out of confusion. Then #63 the intro says: 'the transition from confusion to order is completed.' That's some real symmetry, or resonant echoing, right there.

Anyway, thanks for your reading. It was very interesting.
 
Last edited:

rosada

visitor
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
8,934
Reaction score
2,031
My take on these two hexagrams...

Hexagram 1. Creating is a feeling of initiating and hexagram 2. Receptive is a feeling of responding so hexagram 3. Difficulty at The Beginning describes the confusion when one tries to sense if the right step is to lead or follow. It speaks to the need for people to form bonds, exchange ideas and help each other.
3.1 Uncertainty about how to begin. Hesitant to lead and hindrance to following.
3.2 Trying to lead but no followers.
3.3 Willing to follow but no leaders.
3.4 No leaders, no followers, just people trying to share what they know back and forth.
3.5 Even with good will, sharing information is not the final solution as this is a new beginning and no one has any experience with this new situation.
3.6 Thus total hysteria and fear we're all going to die. (or...persevere and jump in as 4. A Foolish Youth and get some experience.)

Hexagram 63. After Completion is a feeling of something major having been completed and now one must set up life in brand new circumstances.
63.1 Having survived one crisis one mustn't assume they are on solid ground.
63.2 Whatever one had to leave behind can be recreated.
63.3 Past experience helps establish the new situation.
63.4 But old honors mean nothing in the new world. You can't take it with you!
63.5 What matters more now is the inner feeling.
63.6 But that doesn't mean you can be careless in the outer world (Note how this line leads to 64.1 and the possibility of getting one's tail in the water all over again)!

S0 - putting this all together I see 3.3 - 63 as saying that..
63. The election in November marks the end of his first term in office and the beginning of a new chapter. Will that be a new term as president or a new chapter entirely? I'm inclined to see this as saying a whole new chapter entirely given the difficult 3.3 which I see as indicating Trump at this time has no clear path to re-election and as BaronAsh predicts, may even decide not to run.
 
Last edited:

my_key

visitor
Joined
Mar 22, 1971
Messages
2,038
Reaction score
723
Intriguing Times ahead so I asked the same question as I though it might be a bit of fun having two perspectives on the same day: What will happen to Trump between now and the November election?

Reading: Hex 35: 5 <> 12
Proceeding Forward through Hinderance.
These hexagrams have meanigs of ´living in the daylight´ - ´reversing the way you sort things´
So can we expect a moment of personal enlightenment and a complete change of character....... now that would be interesting to witness happen. Or politically a complete change of path.

He swims in a sea of Hinderances and having swallowed too much salty water which makes him sick he realises how he communicates with the world has become complicated and troublesome. The wisest direction to swim is one in which ´he does not allow himself to be honored with rank or salary´ and his swimming will be strengthened from making this sacrifice.

His position is being energised by Hex 39 - Limping in the Jungle; where the wise path is set towards connecting with the people.

I guess it all depends what he considers to be the sacrifice he has to make. Maybe what will happen is that he reverses his tactics when he realises that progress for him in the 5 month period comes from the natural flow of communication and sharing - power with rather than power over. And once having recognised this, being a wise old campaigner, he´illuminates himself with the bright virtue´.

Perhaps on a political front - He wins the hearts and minds of the American public with this new approach and sweeps to victory. Or looking at Baron Ashes cast comes to a place of understanding that standing for a second term is too risky - failure is not something he faces easily.

Perhaps on a personal front - He becomes less egotistic and more open, honest and compassionate eschewing politics and joining a monestary or some other such position ( probably this unknown option rather than the monestary) where he can continue his new beginnings in environments that nourish and support him.

....or it may be nothing like this at all.

Good Luck
 
Last edited:

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
My take on these two hexagrams...

Hexagram 1. Creating is a feeling of initiating and hexagram 2. Receptive is a feeling of responding so hexagram 3. Difficulty at The Beginning describes the confusion when one tries to sense if the right step is to lead or follow. It speaks to the need for people to form bonds, exchange ideas and help each other.
3.1 Uncertainty about how to begin. Hesitant to lead and hindrance to following.
3.2 Trying to lead but no followers.
3.3 Willing to follow but no leaders.
3.4 No leaders, no followers, just people trying to share what they know back and forth.
3.5 Even with good will, sharing information is not the final solution as this is a new beginning and no one has any experience with this new situation.
3.6 Thus total hysteria and fear we're all going to die. (or...persevere and jump in as 4. A Foolish Youth and get some experience.)

Hexagram 63. After Completion is a feeling of something major having been completed and now one must set up life in brand new circumstances.
63.1 Having survived one crisis one mustn't assume they are on solid ground.
63.2 Whatever one had to leave behind can be recreated.
63.3 Past experience helps establish the new situation.
63.4 But old honors mean nothing in the new world. You can't take it with you!
63.5 What matters more now is the inner feeling.
63.6 But that doesn't mean you can be careless in the outer world (Note how this line leads to 64.1 and the possibility of getting one's tail in the water all over again)!

S0 - putting this all together I see 3.3 - 63 as saying that..
63. The election in November marks the end of his first term in office and the beginning of a new chapter. Will that be a new term as president or a new chapter entirely? I'm inclined to see this as saying a whole new chapter entirely given the difficult 3.3 which I see as indicating Trump at this time has no clear path to re-election and as BaronAsh predicts, may even decide not to run.

I find the way your lines progress from one to another is very satisfying, orderly. Did you make this up yourself or is this a particular type of approach? Now I've often noticed this sort of thing in Wilhelm - which is the main one I've used for decades now - but often it isn't so clear.

I find #3 generally significant because there is an underlying assumption of great potential, even though it is as yet unclear what form or direction it will take. Perhaps you could call it the beginning of form out of the void, and the first two are somewhat formless, or feminine, sort of like primordial yang, primordial yin. Here you have an entire universe about to be born, maybe, one cannot tell how small or large or any other dimension, just as the size of the oak seed doesn't indicate the future size of the tree.

I am curious how you link 3 and 4. I use 4 mainly as a sign to stop throwing, though of course it has many interesting teachings in it like all of them.

It seems with this throw and Trump that he would almost have to become someone else, or the country has to go through a paradigm shift, so that even were he to run and win again, he would be - or most likely perceived to be - an entirely different person. This is possible given the extreme demonisation he has been subject to for so long. If those perceptions were flipped - in ways now impossible to imagine - this sort of 3 to 63 dynamic - which to me describes a huge, or very significant story arc - might make sense. But without that sort of profound shift, retiring from the fray makes more sense. I am not sure of American electoral legalities, but I think this would have to be decided at the convention, though. You can't just step forth and run as President a month before, there are many requirements I think to get on the ballot in each State. Time will tell...

Thanks for your reading. Neat.
 

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
Very in
Intriguing Times ahead so I asked the same question as I though it might be a bit of fun having two perspectives on the same day: What will happen to Trump between now and the November election?

Reading: Hex 35: 5 <> 12
Proceeding Forward through Hinderance.
These hexagrams have meanigs of ´living in the daylight´ - ´reversing the way you sort things´
So can we expect a moment of personal enlightenment and a complete change of character....... now that would be interesting to witness happen. Or politically a complete change of path.

He swims in a sea of Hinderances and having swallowed too much salty water which makes him sick he realises how he communicates with the world has become complicated and troublesome. The wisest direction to swim is one in which ´he does not allow himself to be honored with rank or salary´ and his swimming will be strengthened from making this sacrifice.

His position is being energised by Hex 39 - Limping in the Jungle; where the wise path is set towards connecting with the people.

I guess it all depends what he considers to be the sacrifice he has to make. Maybe what will happen is that he reverses his tactics when he realises that progress for him in the 5 month period comes from the natural flow of communication and sharing - power with rather than power over. And once having recognised this, being a wise old campaigner, he´illuminates himself with the bright virtue´.

Perhaps on a political front - He wins the hearts and minds of the American public with this new approach and sweeps to victory. Or looking at Baron Ashes cast comes to a place of understanding that standing for a second term is too risky - failure is not something he faces easily.

Perhaps on a personal front - He becomes less egotistic and more open, honest and compassionate eschewing politics and joining a monestary or some other such position ( probably this unknown option rather than the monestary) where he can continue his new beginnings in environments that nourish and support him.

....or it may be nothing like this at all.

Good Luck
Very interesting combination of the very positive 35.5 with the rather negative 12, where the Wilhelm commentary mentions withdrawal into seclusion, very similar to the 3.3 hint. Progress... Standstill...

Disregarding any sort of temporal sequencing, let's look at it as polarity, two poles of the same overall dynamic. On the one hand there is great promise in the mix, and on the other hand it's a time when the evil people dominate and the good people are suppressed, or need to lie low (the 'silent majority?'). In order for the Progress to be meaningful, i.e. real progress, the dynamic involves digging deep into the underlying cause of the Stagnation so that the unfortunate dynamic can be liberated somehow and the country move forward. The cause of this Stagnation has to do with the unusual situation of Heaven being above Earth, 3 Yang above 3 Yin, so this is a somewhat spiritual situation, imo, also fundamental, deep.

A throw like this is fun/tricky/challenging because of course one can regard the whole thing being about Trump the individual, but also since he is a public figure of some import, it's also about the entire mandala, or society, in which that role enjoys influence and standing. Certainly the socio-political dynamic in the US is in a very unpleasant state, similar to 12 Standstill in that the good is not in the ascendant. Of course one might read that many different ways viz Trump; many will regard him as the bad and his opponents as good, others the opposite, with similar differences as to which part of the population is righteous, which evil. The result of all this conflict and contradiction is Standstill. Neither side can make progress because the agendas are conflicted with so much mutual dislike, even hate at this point.

So that is the grist that needs to be milled. This throw, like some others, points out that some big energy shifts are in play given the almost seeming contradiction between the very positive 35 ("rapid easy progress") with 5 changing line ( "Undertakings bring good fortune; everything serves to further." and 12 Stagnation ("evil people do not further the perseverance of the superior man... Heaven and Earth do not unite..." a sort of 'the times are out of joint' feeling). These two need to harmonize somehow for anything positive indicated in 35 to be possible. The key is to find the gentleness within, both in 12 and 35. The country is going to have to go beyond this ghastly state of hate-filled partisanship & vitriol and so the President will have to be perceived as someone occupying that sort of psychological space both for himself and for the people as well. At the same time, there are the lines in the Image in 12: 'in order to escape the difficulties, he does not allow himself to be honored with revenue.' Well, that could be Trump - who already donates his salary but of course there are other potential benefits from the role after he leaves office - but it could also be the partisan ambitions on both sides, both in terms of the Parties and the voters. Maybe what is called for in the country is for people to put down their demands on the other side and agree to just go for a more humble, reasonable middle, to climb down from large demands and great expectations. The country is going to have to dig deep to resolve Heaven and Earth being out of wack, the opposite of 11 Peace where that which wants to rise is below, and that which needs to decline or sink is above.

This would be extraordinary given where we are now, and yet any harmony between the poles of 35 and 12 in this context would have to be extraordinary.

This is fun. Thanks for putting up this site.
 
Last edited:

my_key

visitor
Joined
Mar 22, 1971
Messages
2,038
Reaction score
723
3.3 Willing to follow but no leaders.

63.3 Past experience helps establish the new situation.

S0 - putting this all together I see 3.3 - 63 as saying that..
63. The election in November marks the end of his first term in office and the beginning of a new chapter. Will that be a new term as president or a new chapter entirely? I'm inclined to see this as saying a whole new chapter entirely given the difficult 3.3 which I see as indicating Trump at this time has no clear path to re-election and as BaronAsh predicts, may even decide not to run.

Line 3 is also the time of inner rebalancing that comes from re-evaluation of your capabilities, emotional state etc. It's interesting that you have quoted here that for you the fan yao of 3.3 i.e. 63.3 that past experiences will play a big part in the decision making process.

The nuclear of 3 is 23 Stripping and so clearly old and out moded thoughts or behavious are clearly in the mix for a good old spring clean. This will be a spring clean that gets right down into the bones of it all too, so a real inner and outer clear out; no stone left unturned.

Also paired with hex 4 - there is confirmation at line 4 that 'entangled folly brings humiliation'. Additionally, the shadow site of 62 indicates this is not a small matter - the consequences are huge with respect with this transition. The hex 3 time is not one of modesty and conscientiousness and guidance to not 'stive upward' and to remain below may well be ignored.

What all this actually means....... onlytime will tell.
 

rosada

visitor
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
8,934
Reaction score
2,031
I link 3. Difficulty at the Beginning to 4. Youthful Folly by thinking of 3. as describing a situation where one has no previous experience, no frame of reference, and therefore no one can learn by sharing knowledge because there is no past experience to compare to this brand new situation. So 3.6 describes the tears and frustration from not being able to understand and then on to 4.1 where the soul finds itself kicked out of school, or heaven, or where ever people just talk theory, and into Real Life to gain experience.

4. Youthful Folly Judgement talks about not continually asking questions, and then adds "Perseverance furthers". This leads me to believe the question being asked is "What is perseverance?" which would be an incomprehensible concept to understand at the beginning - one has to experience persevering over time to understand what perseverance is!

Anyway, I think this response to your posting is me demonstrating what 3. Difficulty at The Beginning is, I'm having a hard time getting my thoughts in order and ready to give up! (cue Bloody Tears!)
 
Last edited:

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
Well, this is a general response....

I studied Chinese medicine for a while, both from the traditional texts and also from some of the esoteric daoist view. But I've also generally enjoyed contemplating yin-yang theory over the years, although for a long time I was a hard core Buddhist practitioner. Anyway, one has to have some sense of the inter-relations of yin and yang, positive-negative, up-down, male-female, warm-cool, rising-falling, spiralling outward-spiralling inward, beginning-ending, climaxing-collapsing and so on.

So I regard the I-Ching language as a way to depict essentially universal energy patters using a yin-yang language of sorts. So you have all-yang 1 and all-yin 2 and then you go from there. You have the original 8 trigrams based on all possible combinations of yin-yang trigrams, which are given somewhat archetypical names as they representing maybe one could say the core 8 energy patterns, similar in a way to the core 5 energies in the medical system. But - and this is my theory - 8 wasn't enough, although many masters can work no end of miracles just with throwing a single trigram of course. But in terms of describing situational reality, which it seems to me is one of the main functions of the I-ching, 8 is not enough. Some systems then had four lines, but in the end it seems that six lines and 64 energy patterns fit the bill - enough to describe many different types of energy pattern, but not so much as to require too many years of study just to learn that energetic alphabet, as it were. And of course each hexagram contains two main and two minor ones, not to mention the changing line business. So each hexagram is a complex, variegated matrix in its own right. It's an extremely simple, but also very complex, multi-faceted layout - just like reality. It's neat.

Now the human mind is a marvellous, similarly complex and multi-faceted thing. One of its main tools is that of 'concept.' Or we could say, practically speaking, a word. Like 'Tree' or 'Body' or 'Courage.' When we use a word like that, we know the meaning, or we think we do. But if you consider a moment, of course it's not that simple. All three words are describing processes over time, not static things, even though cognitively there is a static quality to anything we feel we have already understood (shades of Hexagram 63?!). Because it is understood, it is in some sense over, it is no longer an ongoing process. This is similar to the notion of Siddhartha contemplating a river. The river is a good concept, we all know what it means, but if you actually spend time contemplating one, you find that it is continuously changing, that there is no actual thing you can call river, rather that it is a multi-faceted situation involving a place, banks, sky, earth, flowing water, wherever that water comes from and goes to, the state of the river (clean, dirty, turbulent, smooth), its function (not much, lifeblood of the city and farms) and so forth. The word 'river' doesn't begin to cover it all, however it is very helpful to call it something. It's just not helpful to freeze the meaning - which nearly all of us always do.

To me the I-Ching means the classic of changing energetic patterns, or in shorthand processes. So I think of it as the Classic of Dynamic Process. There are 64 prime types of process, or energy patterns. But just like the river, these are not static things, they always depend for meaning on context, on what else is going on. So how one views a hexagram affects what it is signalling (is the question about outer issues like national politics, or inner issues like a spiritual obstacle in meditation, or emotional quandary in a relationship, or trying to find where I lost my keys etc. ). So the words in the text reflect different meanings just like a mirror reflects different images depending upon who is looking into it.

Or something like that.

Sometimes I am sharp with this and have a strong feeling for a hexagram based on the visual layout of the yin-yang lines, sometimes it is much more conceptual and I depend on prior associations from previous readings, sometimes I lean heavily on the texts. Usually, for a reading I stumble into it waiting for something to come through, some angle, some image, some sense of direction or emerging clarity which in turn provides a handle, a context. And that in turn starts to congeal into a central notion, similar to the word river.

Which is interesting. Because at the moment when things start to clarify that way, that's the moment that I cease to approach the hexagram as an open process, an unknown, a mystery to explore. Instead of a young maiden yet to be wooed, she is now a wife, someone known and understood. This in itself is not necessarily bad, but along with this freezing, as it were, you are also capturing a certain context, view, perspective. And if you bring that same context with you to the next encounter with this energy pattern, then things start to get stale.

This is why I like the Wilhelm text. The language is stiff, impersonal, a bit remote. It is couched in terms often involved with running a kingdom, or dealing with a very stable, well understood social structure, put it that way, a society which we don't really know and haven't really seen - though the original authors no doubt felt differently. Now I'll contradict that: it's a structure we all know because it is a primordial structure: individual, family, clan, town, country, King & Queen. We all know this structure. So the language of the commentary happens within this extremely universal context, but of course each throw, each question, deals with a wide variety of specific contexts and perspectives in relation to which the context of the text becomes some sort of symbolic, or poetic, analog. Sometimes a comment line is surprisingly literal, but generally it is all symbolic, not just each particular word, but the relationship with the other notions in the text, things like leaders and followers, good or evil people rising, progressing or regressing and so forth. Endless.

So what I try to do myself is combine some sense of what this hexagram energy pattern is about generally in relation to the issue at hand, and then see how something more specific emerges from the mist of that general tone, often from a changing line, or maybe just from intuition as I contemplate the commentary. Often I have my mind made up very quickly and a few lines seem relevant and many more are ignored; sometimes I have to work at it a few times, dig deeper into the line construction to grock the overall context and or energetic progression, texture, dynamic and then the commentary might start to resonate. It's a fun process. But to me part of the art is learning how to get a feel for what energy pattern this hexagram just thrown has in relation to the issue at hand. Then things start to talk in more meaningful ways.

I guess the point is, that the river/hexagram is never the same from moment to moment or throw to throw. That's why I like Wilhelm's very classic, archetypical language. Because it is stiff, it is actually more open, more fluid, sort of like how there is no limit to what can be expressed using the same 26 letters in the alphabet. The language is universal, formal, impersonal, timeless. Classic. Using that language one can contemplate no end of entirely different and unique energies, or situations, their promise, their warning, their traps, their inspirations, their successes, their failures, their thrust, their pitfalls, their character, their hints at what to accept and what to reject in this context and so forth.

Anyway, that's my two cents on what a hexagram is. Like a river, it both is and is not. It is always there but never the same thing from moment to moment, or throw to throw, even though it is clearly identifiable as that, that river, that hexagram. It's just like us: we are continually changing but always identifiably 'me.' So to say we exist solidly is false; but to say we don't exist is also false. The hexagrams are different identifiable configurations, or dynamics, but they are never the same thing twice and so I try not to fix what each one means and approach them fresh each time. Perhaps that is why after more than 40 years with the text I still have a lot of fun - and learning - working through the same text and commentary time after time. Every time it's different, new, a mystery. Just like every situation prompting a question.
 
Last edited:

my_key

visitor
Joined
Mar 22, 1971
Messages
2,038
Reaction score
723
Is the 'shadow site' 62 related to 63, like 4 is to 3?
Shadow site of 1 is 64, of 2 63, of 3 62 of 4 61 and so on. Hex and it's shadow numbers add to 65 as an easier way to calculate.

So Shadow sites of the 3/4 pair are 62/61. Concept written about by Stephen Karcher. Typically gives a picture on what is the 'negative' of that picture. Or what may be lurking in the shadows of the situation contributing to the resistances. It's the long suppressed or repressed form of energy held in the situation, waiting for an opportunity to be noticed or to be released.

Good Luck
 

Lavalamp

visitor
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
1,094
Reaction score
162
"What happens with Trump between now and November?"
3.3 > 63.

63 After Completion. This hex as context means the outcome is already determined, it's already done.
3.3 There are opportunities he will not pursue because having no guide on the issue, the outcome on that thing is uncertain so he stops.

I think the reading says he is going to play it pretty safe politically, only pursue opportunities where he has qualified advice, and the election result is already determined, it's done.

- LL
 

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
Very succinct and sober take in the midst of so much seeming turbulence! We'll see.

That's an interesting counter-view viz. 'it's already done.' Rather than the psychic's reading that he won't make it to the election at all (she said he was not going to be defeated, but also he wouldn't be President any more), you're saying it's already over, basically, that his victory is all but guaranteed. And your take that he will pull back on certain things if he lacks support ('guide') makes sense too, whilst also being different.

Overall, I think the throw is strong because of the span from 3 to 63, the beginning challenge of bringing order out of chaos and the ending situation of having brought order out of confusion. It's a full cycle with the beginning and end very clearly linked, confirming your 'it's done' read. No matter what happens, it's going to be one heck of an election and the country is going to look very different afterwards, which will probably effect the rest of the world considerably. There is little conflict in the throw, no obstacles or warnings in the hexagrams apart from that line, it's all rather bird's eye view, panoramic. So I like your 'it's already over' take. Fits.

I had another take on 3.3. His entire Presidency has consisted on his being threatened with humiliation and disgrace, or you could say that it has been dished out at him daily. Constant insult and accusations of imbecility, immorality, incompetence, bad intent. That is the path this President has been walking, day by day. So you have bringing order out of confusion accomplished from beginning to end, via a path involving navigation through the forest in the face of humiliation and disgrace. He is an outsider, a people's tribune, and so by definition is walking alone through the forest, foresters being denied him.

My personal opinion outside the throw is that it seems to me that either he will win big or he won't be in the race at all, something like that. More incoming is on the menu for sure in the next 150 days. So far he's been able to deal with it, albeit his Presidency has been kept on the defensive the entire time. But national politics in any developed State is hardball, a heavy slog, and things rarely come easy.

Look at Brexit. A ghastly struggle for years when, similar to Trump's situation, the losing side refused to surrender the field, and all looked close to collapse or civil war last fall, with self-righteous Labour and LibDem jezebels heaping invective on the pilloried PM literally spitting and hissing at him, dressing him down like he was a naughty boy in their care (more humiliation and disgrace) and then - bob's your uncle - a landslide election victory once they finally allowed one to take place and most of them swept out of Parliament! And it looks now that finally Brexit will go through, the last deadline for extension having passed, even though the country has moved onto other challenges, like the pandemic and busted economy, neither of whose existence or non-existence can be measured with any degree of certainty!

Interesting times...
 

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
Shadow site of 1 is 64, of 2 63, of 3 62 of 4 61 and so on. Hex and it's shadow numbers add to 65 as an easier way to calculate.

So Shadow sites of the 3/4 pair are 62/61. Concept written about by Stephen Karcher. Typically gives a picture on what is the 'negative' of that picture. Or what may be lurking in the shadows of the situation contributing to the resistances. It's the long suppressed or repressed form of energy held in the situation, waiting for an opportunity to be noticed or to be released.

Good Luck

Thanks. I think that's over my head! I have a hard enough time diving into the fathomless ocean of each hexagram, let alone the second one and the two nuclears! Maybe one day I'll get there!
 

Lavalamp

visitor
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
1,094
Reaction score
162
That's an interesting counter-view viz. 'it's already done.' Rather than the psychic's reading that he won't make it to the election at all (she said he was not going to be defeated, but also he wouldn't be President any more), you're saying it's already over, basically, that his victory is all but guaranteed. And your take that he will pull back on certain things if he lacks support ('guide') makes sense too, whilst also being different.

1. People that are really psychic really hate pretenders.
2. I don't see in *this* reading that his victory is guaranteed, no, only that the outcome is already pretty much decided is the context. That is my shorthand for hex 63, it's over, what's done is done, first thing I think of when I see the hex.
3. Given this context, line 3.3 isn't going to change much. It describes hunting, there goes the deer but you don't know what the path is in there, not having a guide, so you play it safe and don't risk getting lost in the woods. Kinda like not getting lost in the weeds maybe. Maybe means he will stay on point with his agenda.
Or it's kinda like Alinsky's Rules For Radicals Rule #2 maybe, never go outside the expertise of your people.

- LL
 

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
Fair enough. We'll soon find out. Gonna be interesting.

As to the psychic, this is a real one from a family of mediums. It's not my world but occasionally find myself in their company. I don't ever consult with any for example, these are personal acquaintances made in entirely mundane situations whom I later find out have these different capabilities.

Also, fwliw, she couldn't care less one way or another about Trump or the USA (where she doesn't live). It was a casual insight at first, but she checked it a few times because it was a slightly odd configuration, and kept coming back with the same results. Then we decided I should do a throw, being another person with a non-psychic method, and I thought it neat how the two readings resonate fairly well, though of course still don't have any idea what the future has in store.

I mainly use the I-ching for advice on what the situation is, what sort of pattern/energy is in the mix, or the best way to view things or tackle them. I know some masters can use it to find lost keys or other very practical things like that, but I'm not able to consult it that way.

Actually, it occurred to me this morning that my reading mainly just reflected the psychic's reading with a couple of tips of why it might pan out. It may have nothing to do with what happens to Trump over in the USA!!!
 

bologna_tendra

visitor
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Messages
138
Reaction score
83
If your friend is correct (no Trump but also no Democrats) perhaps the answer is Mike Pence?
 

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
If your friend is correct (no Trump but also no Democrats) perhaps the answer is Mike Pence?
No, but someone in the Republican Party.
She clarifies further:
he will retire to protect his family who will be hurt if he remains in office.
(Basically similar thing that happened to Flynn.)
 

BaronAsh

visitor
Joined
Jun 12, 2020
Messages
57
Reaction score
25
Update. We revisited the topic and there is a bit more:
1 Trump will withdraw in first week of September - i.e. AFTER the Republican Convention.
2. He will withdraw not because of sexual, political or financial scandal, but heart attack.
2 Kanye West will be the next President!

I find this scenario very hard to imagine, but we are in very crazed time in the US so let's see. As it is now, I don't see any way a Nov 3 election will do anyone any good. The country is dysfunctional. For Kanye Presidency to work at all, HUGE changes must take place. Unlikely as it is, only HUGE changes will get the country out of the dysfunctional, hate-filled rut it finds itself in, so on second thought, maybe it's not so outlandish. Trump will endorse Kanye from his hospital bed and K will get most of the hard core Trump vote (who are NOT white supremacists, surprise surprise!) and 50% of the black vote.

She also said that many of the pedophile rings will be busted open with possible Hillary and Obama being jailed, but the real leaders behind it all will not be touched. There will not be an American revolution and the economy will be fine.

WHAT a strange time. In any case, it looks like Trump will indeed withdraw. If he does have a heart attack in September, it will no doubt be because of great stress, and that sort of stress could only be because he doesn't see a clear path to winning. And the sad fact is that there isn't one because his opponents are willing to burn the country down in order to undermine his support. He has no path to victory, that much is becoming increasingly clear, but not so much because he his bad, but because the other side is ruthless and unprincipled. Kanye can come in as an entirely new, gamechanger. A black angel.

Strange times... but I'm not doing another throw on this. The first one is still clearly in play.
 

Lavalamp

visitor
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
1,094
Reaction score
162
Update. We revisited the topic and there is a bit more:

I do not understand why you are repeating the predictions of your psychic on an iChing readings page.
It's not related to the discipline we are studying. And there is no way to check or scrutinize the basis for it.
On a tarot page, at least a card reading could be subjected to some kind of peer review.
You might as well be posting the latest from Q-Anon or Alex Jones.

- LL
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top